Santa Claus - Reinforcing the Lie?

RobRoy

Not A Mormon
RobRoy
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
15,117
Location
In the sandbox
Last September, my wife and I welcomed our first child into this world. He's a biasedly beautiful bouncing baby boy. Now that he's starting to go through some of the more major developmental stages I've been pondering the question of Santa Claus. That is, the question of do I lie to my son (and any future children) and reinforce the myth of Santa Claus as the jolly giver of gifts and the bowl full of jelly bringer of joy, or do I shuck all that for the winter's cold truth?

There are a great many folk whose opinions I respect on these forums, and I would appreciate your input on this subject.
 
There are two approaches and both have merits.

#1: Yes, Santa Claus is real. He is a magical person, who loves everyone so much he died for their sins. But so great was his love that he came back from the grave to visit everybody once a year and give them presents. Santa is very real. He is very powerful. And he is unstoppable--not even death itself could hold him back. Accept his gifts. Accept his visits. You don't want to offend an immortal undead magical man who can stealthily break-and-enter any dwelling at will in the dead of the night, do you? Do you?! So. You'd. Better. Eat. Your. Peas. Timmy.

#2: Santa Claus is a cute story, a myth that has become part of our rich holiday traditions. He's not real, but it's fun to play along. The fun of Santa distracts people from the true horror of Cthulhu, who stirs during winter solstice when the strange stars align and blasphemous shadows stir among Cyclopean architecture with non-Euclidean geometry in the abyssal night at the bottom of the sea. So let's pretend that's reindeer, flying reindeer --how cute! we hear tapping on the roof. Reindeer that are jolly, and have skin, and are warm to the touch. No tentacles or rotting flesh there, no sirree. And Santa's a jolly fat man with absolutely no clawed tentacles. The red glow is Rudolph's nose, not a single malevolent eye burning with unfathomable hatred born on distant Yuggoth. Ai! Ai! Cthulhu fhtagn! It's Xmas, kiddies! Try not to think about it.
 
I don't have any kids, but have some friends who handled this in what I thought was a very admirable fashion. They love reading stories to their kids that have obviously fictional characters -- talking animals, wizards, etc. The kids know that these aren't real, but still love reading about them, talking about them, etc.

So, they treat Santa Claus in the same way. He's just another story. They go to the shopping mall and their kids sit on Santa's knee, telling him what they want for Christmas. On Christmas Day, they will find presents from Santa under the tree, and stockings filled with goodies from Santa.

It is a game, a fantasy, that the whole family plays together. The kids know that Santa is not real, there is no lying or anything like that. But not wanting to lie to your kids about Santa doesn't mean that you have to remove Santa from the Christmas experience.
 
TragicMonkey said:
There are two approaches and both have merits.

#1: Yes, Santa Claus is real. He is a magical person, who loves everyone so much he died for their sins. But so great was his love that he came back from the grave to visit everybody once a year and give them presents. Santa is very real. He is very powerful. And he is unstoppable--not even death itself could hold him back. Accept his gifts. Accept his visits. You don't want to offend an immortal undead magical man who can stealthily break-and-enter any dwelling at will in the dead of the night, do you? Do you?! So. You'd. Better. Eat. Your. Peas. Timmy.

#2: Santa Claus is a cute story, a myth that has become part of our rich holiday traditions. He's not real, but it's fun to play along. The fun of Santa distracts people from the true horror of Cthulhu, who stirs during winter solstice when the strange stars align and blasphemous shadows stir among Cyclopean architecture with non-Euclidean geometry in the abyssal night at the bottom of the sea. So let's pretend that's reindeer, flying reindeer --how cute! we hear tapping on the roof. Reindeer that are jolly, and have skin, and are warm to the touch. No tentacles or rotting flesh there, no sirree. And Santa's a jolly fat man with absolutely no clawed tentacles. The red glow is Rudolph's nose, not a single malevolent eye burning with unfathomable hatred born on distant Yuggoth. Ai! Ai! Cthulhu fhtagn! It's Xmas, kiddies! Try not to think about it.
Click to expand...

Nom'd.

My ancient answer that I still endorse. Even if it isn't as good as Monkey's.

ETA: And much congrats, to both of you. It's going to be a wild ride.
 
Last edited:
I'm a fan of the "Yes, Virginia" approach to the point that I several times considered having Francis Pharcellus Church as my Christmas avatar. :)

It's not about the existence of an actual supernatural being living on the North Pole. It's about the idea of Santa Claus, the concept, the myth and the spirit. I recognized my grandfather in a fake beard when I was about three years old, but I have never said and would never say "There is no Santa Claus." I enjoyed Santa Claus then on the same terms as I do now (although the sitting in the lap had to go at some point :D) and I see no conflict between reinforcing the myth and being honest.

That's right, I'm a hardline Santa Claus apologist. So sue me. :p
 
I don't have any kids either, but I was a kid once. I used to believe in Santa Claus, and then I didn't. I turned out fine, in fact, I am glad I had all those years of believing in him, and was able to get it out of my system for when I grew up and put away all those childish ideas.

Do you really see it as lying to your children? Don't do it then, if that bothers you. I am sure they will still enjoy the holidays without that aspect.
 
Don't tell kids stuff like, "if you don't believe, you won't get presents"-- that's a weird message. It's illogical. If Santa is real, he (like his invisible sky counterpart) can read your mind and "know" if you believe. If you don't believe, you can fake like you do--but how do you fool a mind reader... and how crazy are you willing to drive yourself trying not to think of the whole conundrum of it all so you don't risk "unbelieving" by accident and leaving yourself bereft of goodies?
 
articulett said:
Don't tell kids stuff like, "if you don't believe, you won't get presents"-- that's a weird message. It's illogical. If Santa is real, he (like his invisible sky counterpart) can read your mind and "know" if you believe. If you don't believe, you can fake like you do--but how do you fool a mind reader... and how crazy are you willing to drive yourself trying not to think of the whole conundrum of it all so you don't risk "unbelieving" by accident and leaving yourself bereft of goodies?
Click to expand...

Honestly, I've never met anyone else ever- theist or atheist or apathist- that takes this stuff as literally and as seriously as you do. You keep babbling on about the "Courtier's reply"- well that's it, right there, in what you said.

And for f[rule X]'s sake, do you have to preach your dogma in every single thread that even alludes to someone believing something? I suppose next comes an emotional rant about how you never liked the deparment store elves as much as you liked the snotty brat that used to get off on telling the younger kids there is no Santa.

We've all heard what little you have to say on the subject, give it a rest.
 
Last edited:
If, after the communists take over, I somehow end up with kids, I will be sure to tell them the truth about Santa Claus. I will then encourage them to lord their special knowledge over their uneducated peers and teach them how to introduce proper sarcasm in their conversations.
 
They will anyhow... if they're like my kid. It's not "lording knowledge"-- it's sharing a big secret that the grown ups (the enemy) are telling the kids (the allies).

And all their parents will be mad at you for ruining a story you didn't want to proffer in the first place.
 
I agree with Wolfman, treat it like a story. I figured it out when I was 3 or 4 and dad told me it was a fun story/game and not to ruin it for everyone else.
 
I told my kid not to spoil it for others... now that he figured it out, he got to be "santa" for others, etc. But like me, he considered it too juicy of a truth tidbit to keep to himself-- and he wanted no part of the pretense towards others. It felt like a "lie" to him. And I felt the same way as a kid. I didn't even tell my kid about Santa... I just let him absorb the myth from others and went along the best I could and was vague when he started asking questions. e.g."do you really think that I'm santa?-- do you really think I have the stamina to go running around on Christmas eve giving presents to all the little boys and girls of the world?" I even bought him a toy gun as "Santa" which his mom (me) didn't want him to have (so he asked Santa to get around the mom loophole). grrr.
 
Piscivore said:
My ancient answer that I still endorse. Even if it isn't as good as Monkey's.
Click to expand...
That's awesome. Mrs. Upchurch and I are expecting our firstborn in October. We're enjoying the thread.

We have The Autobiography of Santa Claus on CD. It is an interesting mix of actual historical events and mythical story telling. We try to play it once every Christmas and plan on keeping up the tradition when the kid comes.
 
RobRoy said:
I've been pondering the question of Santa Claus.
Click to expand...


Here's my answer:

There's really only one time in your life when it is acceptable to really belive in magic. Adults may be required to know what is real from what is unreal, even while professing a belief in fantasy. Children, though, really can believe in a magical world where anything is possible. Soon enough, they won't be able to anymore.

So, if you enjoyed your childhood and if you remember the feeling of finding presents under that tree, I see no reason why you should deny your child that same experience. It is possible, after all, to have believed in Santa and to still be a fine critical thinker.

Let your new child experience just a little bit of wonder while he still can.
 
Unless you're a single parent and are miffed that a non existent entity will be getting credit for your hard work.
 
Tell the kids he's Jewish. Then you can avoid the whole situation.
 
or Jehovah Witness...

I bet the Amish don't get stuff from Santa either.

You don't have to tell them you're Jewish... tell him HE's jewish.
 
dirtywick said:
Now THAT is the spirit of Christmas!
Click to expand...

I'm still haunted by the "spirits" of Xmas past...

I should have scrooged it from the get-go, but my husband died when the kid was young, and I felt like I was supposed to go along with things for the sake of the kid.

But I had a hard kid-- he wanted some of Santa's magic-- real magic and was visibly disappointed when the fat guy didn't pull through.
 
Last edited:
A very tricky question to deal with...see, I endorse this position, and would probably adopt it as my own when I have kids:

Wolfman said:
I don't have any kids, but have some friends who handled this in what I thought was a very admirable fashion. They love reading stories to their kids that have obviously fictional characters -- talking animals, wizards, etc. The kids know that these aren't real, but still love reading about them, talking about them, etc.

So, they treat Santa Claus in the same way. He's just another story. They go to the shopping mall and their kids sit on Santa's knee, telling him what they want for Christmas. On Christmas Day, they will find presents from Santa under the tree, and stockings filled with goodies from Santa.

It is a game, a fantasy, that the whole family plays together. The kids know that Santa is not real, there is no lying or anything like that. But not wanting to lie to your kids about Santa doesn't mean that you have to remove Santa from the Christmas experience.
Click to expand...

But the following also makes sense, so I could see myself using this rationale should my someday wife or partner-cyborg want the kids (or miniborgs) to believe in Santa.

Loss Leader said:
Here's my answer:

There's really only one time in your life when it is acceptable to really belive in magic. Adults may be required to know what is real from what is unreal, even while professing a belief in fantasy. Children, though, really can believe in a magical world where anything is possible. Soon enough, they won't be able to anymore.

So, if you enjoyed your childhood and if you remember the feeling of finding presents under that tree, I see no reason why you should deny your child that same experience. It is possible, after all, to have believed in Santa and to still be a fine critical thinker.

Let your new child experience just a little bit of wonder while he still can.
Click to expand...

But then on top of that, this one has seemed like a good idea ever since my Bar Mitzvah:

hgc said:
Tell the kids he's Jewish. Then you can avoid the whole situation.
Click to expand...

But if you go with option three, you better be prepared to spend a LOT on the kid's thirteenth birthday...
 
articulett said:
Don't tell kids stuff like, "if you don't believe, you won't get presents"-- that's a weird message. It's illogical. If Santa is real, he (like his invisible sky counterpart) can read your mind and "know" if you believe. If you don't believe, you can fake like you do--but how do you fool a mind reader... and how crazy are you willing to drive yourself trying not to think of the whole conundrum of it all so you don't risk "unbelieving" by accident and leaving yourself bereft of goodies?
Click to expand...

That is complete nonsense. The Santa Claus myth says nothing about Santa being omniscient (or omnipotent, for that matter). The mere fact that Santa has to keep a list of those who have been naughty or nice would tell you this. Why would he need a list, if he could read your mind?

Also, Santa isn't about intention but behavior: You are naughty or nice based on your actions, not your intentions of being good.

It's quite alright to criticize myths, but for crying out loud: Criticize them for what they are, not what you want them to be. You shoot yourself in the foot when you do.
 
Kidding apart, learning that Santa was actually my parents and that they had been kidding me along to keep me happy was a valuable lesson for me. It made me question other things I found odd, but that adults seemed to accept. Primary among these was religion.
I can't recall ever really believing in god / gods / little baby Jesus etc, but I clearly remember being impressed by the fact that my parents- and a whole church full of other adults- apparently did. They went to church. They stood for the minister. They listened to him with great respect, even when he said stuff that seemed wierd.
But I noticed big differences between what people said in church about behaviour and how they actually behaved outside of it- and this puzzled me. For me that WAS the "mystery" of religion. (Scots presbyterianism being largely embarrassed by talk of miracles and the like).

After I realised that Santa was just a story, it became clear that religion was the same sort of story- untrue, but socially accepted for social reasons. I would not have put it that way at the time- I was six and a bit- but it was pretty clear in my head.

Revealing to a kid that adults may lie to him for reasons they see as good is not necessarily a bad thing.
So I think there's a case for sceptics propagating the Santa myth- but it's important the child sees through it in his own time and that we explain to him why we lied to him.
 
I loved it. My kids loved it. I've never seen any data that there is any harm and there certainly is a lot of anecdotal evidence that it is damn exciting and cool.

I loved it when my kids started to question and came to me to ask about it. It's a great way to encourage critical thinking skills and nurture skepticism. I always asked them, "well what do you think?". They worked it out and were right proud when they did.

My kids are all die hard atheists. I've asked each what they plan on doing when they have kids and they all want to keep the tradition going. I know, it's not proof of anything but in my little world it seems to be a pretty neat thing.

Funny thing is, we support the war on Christmas so perhaps we are a bit inconsistent. :D So sue us.
 
A word of warning: if your kids believe in Santa, make sure they aren't zealots about it.

I sort of was when I was a kid. I beat up the neighbor kid when we were six because he claimed there was no Santa, and I insisted that my parents would never lie to me, and besides, there were all those presents. So I defended both my family honor and Santa's.

It turns out the neighbors were some fundamentalist sect offshoot of Lutheranism and didn't do Santa or anything as part of their religious beliefs.

So yes, at age six I celebrated Xmas by committing what would now be considered a violent hate crime for the purpose of oppressing another religion.

And if that's not the spirit of the season, I don't know what is.
 
Teach them, yes it is all a myth, some people know it is a myth, but others think it is the truth. Tell them there are other things like that as well.

This will teach them to accept nothing at face value.
 
rjh01 said:
Teach them, yes it is all a myth, some people know it is a myth, but others think it is the truth. Tell them there are other things like that as well.

This will teach them to accept nothing at face value.
Click to expand...

Not even what you say?

Children need to accept many things at face value, if they are going to survive. You can't explain the dangers of playing with fire to a 2-year old, but you can make him accept that you said no, and therefore it's a no-no.
 
I don't really have a strong opinion on the Santa thing...

I agree that it can help lead kids to others questions and answers. I just feel weird about "lying" to kids... even for fun. I think my mom did too. I remember asking about how Santa got into our house (we didn't have a chimney), and why our dogs didn't bark their heads off as usual when he was visiting. I think my mom did the psychiatrist thing and asked "what do you think?" I remember knowing there was some sort of grown up secret about Santa that made them vague in that "grown up kind of way".

I was laying in bed thinking about this, and it occurred to me that both Santa and God wanted you to "believe in them"-- in fact, the goodies were at risk if you didn't believe. They were both magical and loved kids and "knew" if you were naughty or nice via some psychic powers; They also didn't want you to see them (some sort of test) and knew if you were asleep or awake.

A light bulb went of in my head (!), and when my mom tucked me in that night we had a conversation that went something like this:

A: (smugly)...I think I figured out the secret about Santa...
M: You did!?
A: Yeah... I think Santa IS God!
M: Hmmmmmm
A: (wanting kudos for my cleverness) Am I right?
M: Why do you think Santa is God?
A: Because he's magical and super-duper nice and the dogs don't bark at him.
M: Hmmmmm
A: So, am I right!?
M: What do you think?
A: I think I'm right.
M: Perhaps (kiss good night--leaves)
 
My parents told me straight off he wasn't real when I was about 6- when I first really learned about him. I say, tell your kid both perspectives and let him decide for himself.
 
TragicMonkey said:
A word of warning: if your kids believe in Santa, make sure they aren't zealots about it.

I sort of was when I was a kid. I beat up the neighbor kid when we were six because he claimed there was no Santa, and I insisted that my parents would never lie to me, and besides, there were all those presents. So I defended both my family honor and Santa's.

It turns out the neighbors were some fundamentalist sect offshoot of Lutheranism and didn't do Santa or anything as part of their religious beliefs.

So yes, at age six I celebrated Xmas by committing what would now be considered a violent hate crime for the purpose of oppressing another religion.

And if that's not the spirit of the season, I don't know what is.
Click to expand...

You HAD to do it. Your presents were at stake.
 
TragicMonkey said:
It turns out the neighbors were some fundamentalist sect offshoot of Lutheranism and didn't do Santa or anything as part of their religious beliefs.
Click to expand...

Indeed, it tends to be the fundamentalists who banish Santa from Christmas. I'm an atheist and I tell my kids that Santa exists. Santa has the starring role in my version of Christmas. Jesus doesn't get any mention. It's good for kids to learn about myths and figuring out for themselves why it can't possibly be true helps them along in their skepticism.
 
Loss Leader said:
Here's my answer:

There's really only one time in your life when it is acceptable to really belive in magic. Adults may be required to know what is real from what is unreal, even while professing a belief in fantasy. Children, though, really can believe in a magical world where anything is possible. Soon enough, they won't be able to anymore.

So, if you enjoyed your childhood and if you remember the feeling of finding presents under that tree, I see no reason why you should deny your child that same experience. It is possible, after all, to have believed in Santa and to still be a fine critical thinker.

Let your new child experience just a little bit of wonder while he still can.
Click to expand...

Children are also able to shove pencil erasers up their noses. That doesn't mean that it's good for them.

You folks can lie to your kids if you like. When I raise children, I want them to able to trust that I won't lie to them for my own vicarious and nostaglic amusement.
 
Last edited:
articulett said:
They were both magical and loved kids and "knew" if you were naughty or nice via some psychic powers;
Click to expand...

You still misunderstand what you are so critical of.

articulett said:
They also didn't want you to see them (some sort of test) and knew if you were asleep or awake.
Click to expand...

Again, wrong, wrong, wrong. Wrong.

The belief in Santa is very much based on actual sightings: Kids see Santa everywhere - that's what makes this particular myth so pervasive and convincing among kids.

I really don't think I have ever seen anyone claiming to be a skeptic getting even the most basic issues that wrong.
 
It's a lie that kids pick up from the culture... you have to decide how much you are going to go along with it... stay silent... voice your opinions... etc.

Kind of like with god.
 
CFLarsen, I think articulett has you on ignore.

Mobyseven said:
But the following also makes sense, so I could see myself using this rationale should my someday wife or partner-cyborg want the kids (or miniborgs) to believe in Santa.
Click to expand...
The word 'miniborg' is far, far cuter than it should be. :D

TragicMonkey said:
A word of warning: if your kids believe in Santa, make sure they aren't zealots about it.

I sort of was when I was a kid. I beat up the neighbor kid when we were six because he claimed there was no Santa, and I insisted that my parents would never lie to me, and besides, there were all those presents. So I defended both my family honor and Santa's.

It turns out the neighbors were some fundamentalist sect offshoot of Lutheranism and didn't do Santa or anything as part of their religious beliefs.

So yes, at age six I celebrated Xmas by committing what would now be considered a violent hate crime for the purpose of oppressing another religion.

And if that's not the spirit of the season, I don't know what is.
Click to expand...
Great. Now we know who served as inspiration for this.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom