I just have to laugh,

Crazy Chainsaw

Philosopher
Crazy Chainsaw
Joined
Aug 12, 2006
Messages
8,339
Brake pads on heavy equipment, especially cranes, and excavators produce micro spheres with silicon, Concrete cut off saws with Aluminum oxide and silicon binder do the same. Clutches and big truck brakes also. As well as some sand papers using silicon binders with aluminum oxide.
Iron fibers and Diatomaceous Earth are used in brake pads, on equipment and vehicles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomaceous_earth

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5042991/description.html

Until site contamination is resolved the work of Dr. Steven E Jones and the other Scholars on the micro spheres is garbage Pseudo Science.

They believe solely because micro spheres are present that they indicate high temperatures, that is a false leap based solely on assumption in conditions which are not and can never be controlled to rule out possible contamination from multiple sources.

The Micro spheres might even be from the renovation following the 1993 bombing from steel cutting and hauling or from equipment operations and steel and concrete cutting during the clean up in 2001.

The micro spheres are not important unless they point to a specific source that can not be mistaken for back ground contamination, from other sources.

I would like to see more evidence of work on the micro spheres, and samples provided, however I do not expect that from the Scholars for truth at this moment.

Many micro spheres are the result of abrasive Mechanical friction on steel and not the result of the fires, that was a false assumption, which I thought I should clear up.
 
I thought I read somewhere (not here) that diesel engine combustion produces a small amount of such, especially on less well maintained engines. Do you know anything about this? I'm unable to find much about it, but I haven't tried searching beyond the internet yet.

If that's correct - if - then sheer exposure from the number of buses, delivery trucks, etc. would be immense. But again, that's if.
 
ElMondoHummus said:
I thought I read somewhere (not here) that diesel engine combustion produces a small amount of such, especially on less well maintained engines. Do you know anything about this? I'm unable to find much about it, but I haven't tried searching beyond the internet yet.

If that's correct - if - then sheer exposure from the number of buses, delivery trucks, etc. would be immense. But again, that's if.
Click to expand...

Yes diesel engine exhaust does contain micro spheres, as well as the fluids contained in the engine contain them, from cavitational corrosion of the cylinder liners.

Car engines also can produce micro spheres there is no perfect system of lubrication as the piston rings wear in a car engine and carbon builds up it increases cylinder wear.
Cast steel engines and Cylinder liners are high silicon for greater hardness and less wear as well as greater heat dissipation.

The brakes on a car can though mechanical friction produce micro spheres if the car is traveling fast enough to reach the critical energy necessary when the brakes are applied.

Anything that cuts or brakes using iron and aluminum silicates or aluminum oxide and silicates, can form micro-spheres the greater the live load stopped by the breaking material the more micro-spheres produced.
Large overloaded trucks and Cranes would be a huge source of them.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
Yes diesel engine exhaust does contain micro spheres, as well as the fluids contained in the engine contain them, from cavitational corrosion of the cylinder liners.

Car engines also can produce micro spheres there is no perfect system of lubrication as the piston rings wear in a car engine and carbon builds up it increases cylinder wear.
Cast steel engines and Cylinder liners are high silicon for greater hardness and less wear as well as greater heat dissipation.

The brakes on a car can though mechanical friction produce micro spheres if the car is traveling fast enough to reach the critical energy necessary when the brakes are applied.

Anything that cuts or brakes using iron and aluminum silicates or aluminum oxide and silicates, can form micro-spheres the greater the live load stopped by the breaking material the more micro-spheres produced.
Large overloaded trucks and Cranes would be a huge source of them.
Click to expand...


My God, then. Before I read about diesel emissions and your post listing alternate sources, I didn't realize there were so many such sources for this. That means this whole "iron rich microspheres" thing is just the "sulfur-gotcha" all over again. It shouldn't be a surprise that they were found, rather, it should be a surprise that someone finds it notable.

It's like falling in a puddle and finding water. Of course it's there...
 
ElMondoHummus said:
My God, then. Before I read about diesel emissions and your post listing alternate sources, I didn't realize there were so many such sources for this. That means this whole "iron rich microspheres" thing is just the "sulfur-gotcha" all over again. It shouldn't be a surprise that they were found, rather, it should be a surprise that someone finds it notable.

It's like falling in a puddle and finding water. Of course it's there...
Click to expand...

IT is like finding milk on a dairy farm, and ascribing it to space aliens.

Dr. Lee made the assumption that the Micro spheres were from the fires, and Jones jumped on it, however that does not appear to be the case at all, they appear to be more of a natural phenomena associated with construction equipment and abrasive mechanical action, even elevator brakes would create them in buildings.
The brakes of trains, any mechanical device that uses friction pads that contain the materials necessary to create them.
 
It's like finding water on the road and attributing it to a fully operational hydrogen-fuel-cell engine.
 
None that would not qualify as a breach of the membership agreement.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
Brake pads on heavy equipment, especially cranes, and excavators produce micro spheres with silicon, Concrete cut off saws with Aluminum oxide and silicon binder do the same. Clutches and big truck brakes also. As well as some sand papers using silicon binders with aluminum oxide.
Iron fibers and Diatomaceous Earth are used in brake pads, on equipment and vehicles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomaceous_earth

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5042991/description.html

Until site contamination is resolved the work of Dr. Steven E Jones and the other Scholars on the micro spheres is garbage Pseudo Science.

They believe solely because micro spheres are present that they indicate high temperatures, that is a false leap based solely on assumption in conditions which are not and can never be controlled to rule out possible contamination from multiple sources.

The Micro spheres might even be from the renovation following the 1993 bombing from steel cutting and hauling or from equipment operations and steel and concrete cutting during the clean up in 2001.

The micro spheres are not important unless they point to a specific source that can not be mistaken for back ground contamination, from other sources.

I would like to see more evidence of work on the micro spheres, and samples provided, however I do not expect that from the Scholars for truth at this moment.

Many micro spheres are the result of abrasive Mechanical friction on steel and not the result of the fires, that was a false assumption, which I thought I should clear up.
Click to expand...

You just had to laugh? Wow you must be a riot at parties. Well if I get what you are trying to point out there then maybe we should look at some similar test results done before the WTC site was contaminated.

Where might one find something like that?
 
TruthByDecree said:
You just had to laugh? Wow you must be a riot at parties. Well if I get what you are trying to point out there then maybe we should look at some similar test results done before the WTC site was contaminated.

Where might one find something like that?
Click to expand...

Totally Irrelevant, because the moment you move in heavy equipment or begin rescue operations your going to find steel micro spheres on site.

IT is the digging and movement that makes micro spheres air born particles.

I checked the dust cover of my old ton truck and found hundreds of them from the friction clutches wear on the steel fly wheel.

The break drum on my truck was also littered with them.

My bull dozer break pads were the same as well as the steering clutches. and the clutches on my tractors were as well.
The drop of an elevator and the wear on the breaks from dropping would have created micro spheres.

Air samples prier to the collapse are totally irrelevant, because the collapse would make stationary deposits of micro spheres that had built up over months or years airborne. The use of cranes and heavy equipment would have like wise altered the environment, to increase the number of air borne particles above the base levels.

It is eventually a non issue, as the planes breaks were also probably littered with micro spheres do to using frictions pads.

Just the fire trucks responding and screeching to a halt would contaminate the site. You simply need the energy to make the particles air borne, the collapses do that nicely, the were very energetic.
 
[derail]Glad to see you're still with us, CC; some concern had been expressed that you might have hurt yourself with one of your experiments or demonstrations.[/derail]
 
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BenBurch said:
Any speculations as to why Jones refuses to consider that his samples might be worthless?
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I do not think Joneses samples are worthless, however his interpretation of them certainly is, They need to be examined by a chemist with experience in this field, not by a physicist continually jumping to assumptions.
The samples might still resolve some important questions to the chemistry of the fires, However they will never do so as long as Jones has sole access to them he is merely pursuing a flawed thermite theory, and that shows in his work.
 
TruthByDecree said:
You just had to laugh? Wow you must be a riot at parties. Well if I get what you are trying to point out there then maybe we should look at some similar test results done before the WTC site was contaminated.

Where might one find something like that?
Click to expand...
Oh, you have some evidence the stuff Jones made up has something to do with 9/11? That is funny. Jones makes it up and people who lack knowledge to understand 9/11 lap up the false information and repeat it.
 
SpitfireIX said:
[derail]Glad to see you're still with us, CC; some concern had been expressed that you might have hurt yourself with one of your experiments or demonstrations.[/derail]
Click to expand...


Thanks for your concern, the rumors of my ascension to a high plane of existence though the use of high energy chemistry were quite exaggerated.

I just basically ran out of materials and funds for experiments and had to go back to work for a while to Acquire more funds for experimentation.

I am also working on a patentable device that will do what the truthers claim was done on 9/11/2001, however I want to use it for good not evil.

I am working on it as a way to save lives, not take them, a rapid rescue and work saving device.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
I do not think Joneses samples are worthless, however his interpretation of them certainly is, They need to be examined by a chemist with experience in this field, not by a physicist continually jumping to assumptions.
The samples might still resolve some important questions to the chemistry of the fires, However they will never do so as long as Jones has sole access to them he is merely pursuing a flawed thermite theory, and that shows in his work.
Click to expand...

I agree. From what little I can tell, the spectroscopy was pretty firm work, although I'll defer to better qualified folks here (like Dr. Greening) to speak definitively towards that. It's just that, as CC says, the problem lies with what he concludes from it. His handwave is in his assertion of how the spheres formed, not that he found them to begin with.
 
I always experience a flood of relief when I see a new post by CC. :D

-Gumboot
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
They believe solely because micro spheres are present that they indicate high temperatures, that is a false leap based solely on assumption in conditions which are not and can never be controlled to rule out possible contamination from multiple sources.

The Micro spheres might even be from the renovation following the 1993 bombing from steel cutting and hauling or from equipment operations and steel and concrete cutting during the clean up in 2001.

The micro spheres are not important unless they point to a specific source that can not be mistaken for back ground contamination, from other sources.
Click to expand...


You're right, there are other possible sources for the iron-rich microspheres - but that doesn't make them useless.

If an eyewitness places a suspect at the scene of a crime just before the crime was committed, does that mean that the suspect is definitely guilty? No, not exactly, because it could be a coincidence. Even so, that sighting is still an important piece of evidence, because it can gain significance later on when it's combined with other evidence.

I appreciate all of your alternative theories, but unless you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the iron-rich microspheres came from one of your alternatives, I'm afraid that you haven't "debunked" anything.
 
The debunking lies in the fact that the samples were from points some distance from the buildings and from times not proximate to the collapse and that there is no chain of custody whatsoever following collection and that there is no way, IF the dust was a product of that day's events, to tell which of the several destroyed buildings it was from!
 
Deep44:

There are certain characteristics of microspheres that would point to thermite as being the most likely source. So far Steven Jones has failed to provide X-ray spectra showing the characteristics I am refering to. (I will not say what these characteristics are - to keep Jones honest - but I have plenty of data to back-up my claim.)

Chainsaw and other posters are correct about the multiple sources of "iron-rich microspheres". They are myriad! I have also reviewed published data on airborne particulate for New York City going back to the 1970s and the years when the Twin Towers were under construction! The deposition rate for Fe onto NYC is about 400 mg/m^2/year. Jones needs to consider this dry deposition flux before he goes off claiming all sorts of things about his samples.

Until Jones is willing to provide a complete set of analytical data for a statistically significant set of WTC microspheres, he is not going to convince a jury of his peers of anything!
 
deep44 said:
You're right, there are other possible sources for the iron-rich microspheres - but that doesn't make them useless.

If an eyewitness places a suspect at the scene of a crime just before the crime was committed, does that mean that the suspect is definitely guilty? No, not exactly, because it could be a coincidence. Even so, that sighting is still an important piece of evidence, because it can gain significance later on when it's combined with other evidence.

I appreciate all of your alternative theories, but unless you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the iron-rich microspheres came from one of your alternatives, I'm afraid that you haven't "debunked" anything.
Click to expand...

You are familiar with some aspects of criminal trials, I assume you are also familiar with a little principle known as "innocent until proven guilty".

It means that it is not our nor anyone else's job to prove the iron-rich microspheres didn't come from thermite. I'm not sure how that's even possible since it's asking us to prove a negative. Rather it is YOUR job to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they DID come from thermite.

Like Chainsaw said. This is like finding milk on a dairy farm, and asking us to prove that it didn't come from space aliens.
 
A20;

Has the proximity of railways to this event entered into your analysis? I ask because I have seen thermite welds being done many times on railways, indeed, that is what it was invented for. And never have I seen a weld done that did not emit showers of sparks.

-Ben
 
BenBurch:

Yes, I have data on thermite welding of railway tracks (in general) and the process does indeed produce microspheres, especially microspheres of Al2O3. There are also some interesting data produced by Steven Chillrud in 2004 -05 at the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory concerning steel dust in the New York City Subway system from rail wear, braking systems and sparking of electrical contacts
 
deep44 said:
You're right, there are other possible sources for the iron-rich microspheres - but that doesn't make them useless.

If an eyewitness places a suspect at the scene of a crime just before the crime was committed, does that mean that the suspect is definitely guilty? No, not exactly, because it could be a coincidence. Even so, that sighting is still an important piece of evidence, because it can gain significance later on when it's combined with other evidence.

I appreciate all of your alternative theories, but unless you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the iron-rich microspheres came from one of your alternatives, I'm afraid that you haven't "debunked" anything.
Click to expand...

IT was never about debunking for me, it was actually about the truth, and without exploring all aspects and all alternatives the truth is lost!

You do know that dirt on steel sealed bearing, with aluminum seals can cause friction and the formation of micro spheres from sealed bearings, do you not?

Since I stopped concentrating solely on the buildings and the fires I have found hundreds of possible sources of micro spheres, the diesel generators in the fuel injection pumps are a good source, as are alternators, any moving part moving fast enough to produce friction capable of melting steel on the macro scale.

Lets not even get into damaged Diesel generators turning before the collapse of 7 with no one to shut them off!
 
Apollo20 said:
BenBurch:

Yes, I have data on thermite welding of railway tracks (in general) and the process does indeed produce microspheres, especially microspheres of Al2O3. There are also some interesting data produced by Steven Chillrud in 2004 -05 at the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory concerning steel dust in the New York City Subway system from rail wear, braking systems and sparking of electrical contacts
Click to expand...

The whole world runs on bearings Apollo20,

hope you like this article.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19790023434_1979023434.pdf
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
The whole world runs on bearings Apollo20,

hope you like this article.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19790023434_1979023434.pdf
Click to expand...

From that article;

Essentially four types of wear debris were observed during this study. These types were normal rubbing wear particles, spherical particles, nonferrous particles, and severe fragments. Fatigue microspall particles and laminar particles sometimes reported during fatigue tests (ref. 10) were not observed in this study.
Click to expand...
 
The towers used lightweight cement.

One of the more many ways of making lightweight cement is to add fly ash.

Fly ash is loaded with microspheres.
 
deep44 said:
You're right, there are other possible sources for the iron-rich microspheres - but that doesn't make them useless.

If an eyewitness places a suspect at the scene of a crime just before the crime was committed, does that mean that the suspect is definitely guilty? No, not exactly, because it could be a coincidence. Even so, that sighting is still an important piece of evidence, because it can gain significance later on when it's combined with other evidence.

I appreciate all of your alternative theories, but unless you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the iron-rich microspheres came from one of your alternatives, I'm afraid that you haven't "debunked" anything.
Click to expand...

The analogy is flawed. If an eyewitness places a suspect at the scene just prior to a crime being committed AND multiple witnesses say that the 'suspect' is at that spot every day at that time it bolsters the idea that his presence is coincidence.

Your last statement is backwards. If Jones wishes to have his data mean anything at all it is UP TO HIM to take into account all sources of such microspheres and determine if their quantity, size and constituents are in any way unusual given the enviroment of NYC prior to 9/11, and the mechanisms of their production by mechanical means during the collapses.

That is how a scientific examination is supposed to be conducted. So far Jones has done an amateurish job of it. Is he lazy or incompetant, you choose
 
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Alferd_Packer said:
The towers used lightweight cement.

One of the more many ways of making lightweight cement is to add fly ash.

Fly ash is loaded with microspheres.
Click to expand...

A20 says that they used a processed clay for that, not sure of his source. But in any case the OTHER buildings around there had plenty of concrete and likely some of that was bearing fly ash, and parts of all of them joined the cloud.
 
BenBurch said:
A20 says that they used a processed clay for that, not sure of his source. But in any case the OTHER buildings around there had plenty of concrete and likely some of that was bearing fly ash, and parts of all of them joined the cloud.
Click to expand...

Fly ash like particles would have been created in the fires themselves from the chemistry of the fires, themselves.

Every car in New York is a potential source of micro spheres every truck, every bicycle is as well, anything that rotates fast enough to melt the steel and aluminum with silicon though friction forming micro spheres on the micro level.
There is not one source there are millions of independent sources of micro spheres the reason they are in the air data is the energy expand in the collapses, and clean up efforts makes them air born.
 
So, from a non-scientist's point of view, then....?

It's likely that any dust collected in NYC at any time would have some form of microspheres, and he needs to prove that it was the specific microspheres from thermite/thermate.... and in addition, that they could not have been produced by welders working on the IRT, IND, and BMT Lines which all converged under the towers, and which were constantly being repaired for roughly thirty years.

Short of that, the mere fact that he has some nearby dust (this was the samples off the windowsill of the nearby loft, wasn't it?) with microspheres is like finding a water source with bacteria in it. It might impress or worry a fourth grader, but anyone knowing even the tiniest bit of science would not be amazed that there were microbes and such in so-called "fresh" water.
 
and those microspheres that are claimed to be from the cleanup work did how exactly get into the apartment?
 
Dictator Cheney said:
and those microspheres that are claimed to be from the cleanup work did how exactly get into the apartment?
Click to expand...

We don't know that they did! We don't know that the sample really came from where it was claimed, or that it was not subsequently contaminated or substituted. We don't know how any of that material got there even if the sample was collected properly and transmitted cleanly. And we don't know when they were produced - On 9/11/01, before 9/11/01 or after 9/11/01.

And that is my whole point!

Unless you can tie them to the event and to the building, they are enough like what you find all over NYC on any given day that they are valueless.
 
Dictator Cheney said:
and those microspheres that are claimed to be from the cleanup work did how exactly get into the apartment?
Click to expand...

And who is it who CLAIMS they are from the cleanup work?
Was that Ben Burch?
Was that Dr. Greening (Apollo 20)?
Was that T.A.M.?
Was that Crazy Chainsaw (hey, glad to see you're back, Crazy! Sorry you had to out and work, though... bummer! I'm trying to break that habit, myself)

Well, no... it was the Stormin' Mormon.... So why don't you trot on over to Scholars and ask the peer-reviewed professor where he got that evidence and why he thinks it should be of any value considering the impossibly weak chain of custody and the totally missing analyses?
 
Glad to know you have not dismembered yourself, CC. I worry about you sometimes. I was about to send a search party to do a health and welfare visit.

Just the fact that some of the samples contain silicone indicates to me that they are not thermite residue. I know of no thermite recipe that calls for kiesselgur. I also notice little calcium in any of the tests. That rules out the only form of thermite I know of that will cut standing columns.

That makes grinders, sanders and vehicle brakes the most logical source of the spheres.

BTW, I have not been able to examine any spectral analysis of Jones' paint chips in a readable format. (If it is on a PDF, I will still have trouble because of some sort of glitch in my computer.)

Jones also makes a big deal about there being a lot of manganese and very little if any chromium in his samples. Seems to me there is manganese in structural steel, but I don't know about chromium. Any help, anybody? Should there be chromium?
 
Add 2 Cycle engines, lawn mowers, weed eaters anything with aluminum push rods and steel crank shafts to the list of micro sphere producers. During the break in cycle, and during rundown right before the engine blows they produce micro spheres from friction of the crank shaft against the piston rod.
Those spheres are thrown out the 2 cycles exhaust system.
 
Crazy Chainsaw said:
I am also working on a patentable device that will do what the truthers claim was done on 9/11/2001, however I want to use it for good not evil.

I am working on it as a way to save lives, not take them, a rapid rescue and work saving device.
Click to expand...



Glad to hear something useful might come out of all this 9/11 stuff, even if it's in a way that no twoofer would have expected!

Please keep us posted on how this proceeds!
 
So basically just about everything in NYC produces microspheres, and the Professor is an idiot?
 
So, to recap, the situation with thermite is currently:

1: Jones has yet to prove thermite was used
2: Thermite is never used in controlled demolitions
3: No-one has come up with a sensible way of using thermite to achieve a demolition like what was seen on 9/11

So basically, there is not one piece of evidence to say that it existed anywhere other than Jones' fevered imagination. They may as well be talking about space lasers.
 
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