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Old 9th June 2008, 08:47 AM   #1
clivedurdle
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People raised from the Dead

Hi

I am new here and frequent talk rational and iidb.

Over the last few weeks there has been a revival led by Todd Bentley at Lakeland Florida and I have seen minimal discussion of someone who looks snake oil salesman but may actually believe it!

It is all on the God Channel if anyone can cope with it!

You seem to have a strange rule about urls so my apologies for short circuiting it, but the links to this are important.
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Old 9th June 2008, 08:49 AM   #2
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and it seems this is going to take fifteen minutes!
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Old 9th June 2008, 08:50 AM   #3
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Some people from my church are flying all the way to Lakeland next week to catch the revival fire and bring it back to England and this town. In some ways I wish I could go with them. I did wonder why the need to actually go there, why this revival can’t be caught from a distance, but on further reflection I believe they are right. I have already heard stories of church leaders who have returned to the UK from Lakeland and seen revival start to break out in their churches. I long to see that happen in my own church, and in all the churches in my town. In fact we have already seen some small signs of it, just enough for us to realise that we need and can hope to receive far, far more.
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Old 9th June 2008, 08:52 AM   #4
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I have watched some of this on God TV, just your typical healing ministry con basically.
People come up, Todd Bentley, the one who looks like a failed roadie, puts his hand on their head and somehow they just "know" that the cancer ,MS ,arthritis etc etc etc has "gone away "
No "proof "they were suffering in the first place and obviously no "proof "that is has "gone away "

For those in the UK it is on TV now on Channel 761 on Sky if you are interested (on all afternoon)
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Old 9th June 2008, 08:53 AM   #5
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If you just post your url in broken form, I'm sure anyone that wants to get to it will.
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Old 9th June 2008, 08:54 AM   #6
clivedurdle
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I am posting bits from the other threads until I reach 15 and give people the freedom to go directly to the links.

THREE MORE RAISED FROM THE DEAD THIS WEEK!!!
Stephen Strader
May 16 2008 01:19AM
(Go to healing thread - site does not allow direct link.)

One of the cases allegedly involves a baby who died who they were I think keeping on heart lung to remove body parts and it woke up again, but this is third hand and supposition. Has anyone been able to track anything about these?
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Old 9th June 2008, 08:55 AM   #7
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From the site
MAN RAISED FROM THE DEAD
===========================
Todd tells the story about the man raised from the dead…

John, Todd’s associate evangelist… MET THE MAN!!!

The man was 45 minutes dead… laying on the table… sheet over his head… he is NOW perfectly healthy!!!

Not even the name of the man or any real details.

Still born child – RAISED FROM THE DEAD

BABY BORN DEAD
===============

A Nigerian man came for impartation… A friend called him that the baby was born dead… he prayed for the baby on the cell phone… the doctors can’t figure it out!!!

This has even less crediablity
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Old 9th June 2008, 08:57 AM   #8
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Come on everyone, I am a long time iidber and I came here because I could not understand why this is not getting torn to shreds!

Has no one tracked down these people claiming they have been raised from the dead and interviewed them?

This is serious! We might have to accept jeebus into our hearts (OK, I was a pentecostal xian once so I probably won't be let back in!)
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Old 9th June 2008, 08:57 AM   #9
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clive:

The URL posting rule is primarily to prevetn spam-bots that log into forums, post a bunch of messages with a URL link to their product site, and never participate in discussion. I'm sure posting a url for legitimate discussion is not a problem (and it's fairly common here for new members). You just have to break it up a bit: for example-www-dot-google-dot-com. One of the nice posters here will often repost it in clickable form for you.
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Old 9th June 2008, 08:58 AM   #10
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Suddenly, out of no where three osprey’s (they look just like small eagles) fly over the infield carrying fish in their mouths! The crowd screams!!! The crowd begins to chant – JESUS, JESUS, JESUS! we couldn’t control them! (Osprey, common name applied to a cosmopolitan hawk. The bird, which is about 60 cm (about 24 in) long, is dark brown above and white, variably streaked with brown, below; its head is white with a dark brown masklike cheek patch. The osprey feeds only on fish, and is often called fish hawk.)
OMG, I am converting right now. How else but by God's power would three, not one, not two, but three birds that eat FISH be seen anywhere on Earth?

The wing span is 24 inches, and there are 24 elders around the throne of God in heaven, repent you vile sinners!!


In the early days of the Toronto Blessing (
people's fillings were being turned into gold.
Apparently...
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Old 9th June 2008, 08:59 AM   #11
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Anyone remember the Toronto Blessing? You're far more likely to get a Liverpool Blessing these days.
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Old 9th June 2008, 09:03 AM   #12
clivedurdle
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This is getting boring so I am going to amend links skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=9821

so it is not recognised as such!

talkrational.org/showthread.php?t=2190
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Old 9th June 2008, 09:30 AM   #13
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http://skepticforum.com/viewtopic.ph...ead.php?t=2190

I'm not sure what you want. Are you asking us to knock some sense into them?

Linda
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Old 9th June 2008, 10:00 AM   #14
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Imagine,you have just got a hefty pay out on uncle Albert's life insurance and some s.o.b. goes and brings him back.Shouldn't be allowed I tell ya.
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Old 9th June 2008, 10:42 AM   #15
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Yup, Todd Bentley is a freak. Not much to do about that but laugh. I love his "leg drop the pastor" bit at the end of this particularly violent passage:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 9th June 2008, 10:56 AM   #16
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So, it's either "admit that God has healed you", or Todd Bentley will kick you in the face again?
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Old 9th June 2008, 11:04 AM   #17
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Most "wake up from the dead" stories are about people whose hearts have stopped.

While that's "dead" in some sense, it's not dead in the most important sense, which is that cell death has started, especially in the vital spot of the brain. So until that point is reached, re-starting the heart is theoretically possible.

"Doctors said he was dead, but we prayed, and he came back to life!" usually means doctors couldn't get his heart started, and gave up, but then it started on its own or they started trying again, or were wrong about it, or something.

And anything where he was "dead for 45 minutes" usually involves cooling, like drowning in water, especially icy water, or passing out in the cold, or similar oddities, such as doctors or paramedics goofing in missing a weak but still beating heart. The latter is not likely with trained professionals, but with tens of millions of deaths a year worldwide, a 1 in a million goof will show up a few dozen times!

And anything more than a number of minutes without that is not well-documented to say the least.
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Old 9th June 2008, 11:07 AM   #18
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Or tackle you, or choke you or leg drop you. God tells him to do weird things.
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Old 9th June 2008, 11:30 AM   #19
clivedurdle
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Quote:
James Randi exposed Peter Popoff on national television about twenty years ago and the guy is still in business, making more than ever.

I do see Todd as just begging for similar treatment!

skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=9821

/iidb. infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=243375

iidb. infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=229795

/iidb. infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=140089

://iidb. infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=103909
//iidb.infidels.org/vbb/ showthread.php?t=245263
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Old 9th June 2008, 11:32 AM   #20
clivedurdle
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Lakeland - where ignorance grows on trees.
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Old 9th June 2008, 11:38 AM   #21
madurobob
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Originally Posted by clivedurdle View Post
Lakeland - where ignorance grows on trees.
I, um, think those are oranges. And, FWIW, Lakeland does have an entire college campus by Frank Lloyd Wright, the largest single collection of Wright buildings anywhere.

If you want to talk crazy charismatics/fundamentalists I think you have to consider Colorado Springs.
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Old 9th June 2008, 04:21 PM   #22
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Where do they find people who have just died? I mean a baby and a man just happened to be in the audience and died, someone noticed and said "hurry and get this person up to the stage, he is dead and God needs to bring them back, hurry the clock is ticking....guess we can wait in this line while others are healed before us?" I mean how do you arrange this?

I don't want any of these freaks near me or my family. I think I would rather trust CPR.

The reason why skeptics are not ripping these people to shreds is mainly because it would do little good. The people you want to convince won't believe the evidence you put before them. The medical community can't seem to stop these con men either. The authorities are powerless as well. What do you want? We can only educate people who want to be educated. I don't want to sound like we have given up, things are going on fighting against these people all over the place. It is just a long hard road. See www.sylviabrowne.com or www.stopkas.com to see one way this nonsense is being fought and won.

Another great site is www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com (hope I spelled that right). When people are all freaking excited about people being raised from the dead and cancer being healed, just ask them if the preacher has ever grown back a missing limb (not just claim he has, but really did it). When that happens maybe I will get excited.

Susan
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Old 9th June 2008, 06:37 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by madurobob View Post
I, um, think those are oranges. And, FWIW, Lakeland does have an entire college campus by Frank Lloyd Wright, the largest single collection of Wright buildings anywhere.

If you want to talk crazy charismatics/fundamentalists I think you have to consider Colorado Springs.
There's also The People's Republic of Boulder
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Old 9th June 2008, 08:12 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by madurobob View Post
I, um, think those are oranges. And, FWIW, Lakeland does have an entire college campus by Frank Lloyd Wright, the largest single collection of Wright buildings anywhere.

If you want to talk crazy charismatics/fundamentalists I think you have to consider Colorado Springs.
Hey. I was born and raised here -- and still live here. We're not all fundie nutjobs.
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Old 10th June 2008, 12:52 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by madurobob View Post
Yup, Todd Bentley is a freak. Not much to do about that but laugh. I love his "leg drop the pastor" bit at the end of this particularly violent passage:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

What in the ?!?!?!

Is this guy for real? I have absolutely no experience regarding this man before this thread and this video. And I'm stunned.

This seems like something that would be a comedic parody of religious people from some sketch comedy show.. Or else that this guy is totally trolling Christians "I'm just going to go out there and say the craziest stuff I can think of and see if they will still buy it and accept me".

This can't be real!
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Old 10th June 2008, 12:59 AM   #26
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This reminds me of something PZ Myers said in his Seattle talk last week. He said you can never tell when this stuff is a parody or when it is real.
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Old 10th June 2008, 01:06 AM   #27
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Hey clivedurdle, welcome to the forum. At first I thought you were telling us you believed this guy. Glad you posted the comment about him needing Mr Randi's attention. I totally agree. The JREF office is in FL. I'd be surprised if this hasn't gotten anyone's attention there yet.


Todd BentleyWP

Fresh Fire Ministries

Looks seriously worrisome.
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Old 10th June 2008, 05:57 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by imjohn View Post
Hey. I was born and raised here -- and still live here. We're not all fundie nutjobs.
My apologies - I did not mean to disparage the good people of Colorado Springs (just the bad ones )

No, not ALL fundie nutjobs.. but you admit there is a high perecntage, right?
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Old 10th June 2008, 12:41 PM   #29
ned flandas
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so what if the dead really are being raised?
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Old 10th June 2008, 12:52 PM   #30
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I want to know if he really kicked the woman in the face. And why was the crowd laughing about it?
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Old 10th June 2008, 01:46 PM   #31
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Well, duh. Because everyone fantasizes about kicking old ladies in the face in the name of jesus, but nobody ever does it. The same reason clubbing baby seals is funny.
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Old 10th June 2008, 01:59 PM   #32
ned flandas
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Originally Posted by skeptigirl View Post
I want to know if he really kicked the woman in the face. And why was the crowd laughing about it?
why don't you go and check it out?
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Old 10th June 2008, 02:02 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by skeptigirl View Post
This reminds me of something PZ Myers said in his Seattle talk last week. He said you can never tell when this stuff is a parody or when it is real.
I believe that is Poe's Law.
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Old 10th June 2008, 02:03 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by ned flandas View Post
so what if the dead really are being raised?
What if I really can make a rabbit appear in a hat?

What if monkeys really can fly out of my anus?

Some questions aren't worth considering.
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Old 10th June 2008, 02:56 PM   #35
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While that's "dead" in some sense, it's not dead in the most important sense, which is that cell death has started, especially in the vital spot of the brain. So until that point is reached, re-starting the heart is theoretically possible.
Isn't that what defibrillators are for?
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Old 10th June 2008, 03:18 PM   #36
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from skepticcs site I posted to and what is going on in lakeland is real

Quote:
am very puzzled by the doctors saying they do not understand why she is alive when it is reported that

They rushed her to a West Virginia hospital. Doctors put Thomas on a special machine which induces hypothermia. The treatment involves lowering the body temperature for up to 24 hours before warming a patient up.



This is an example of the latest treatments! The boundaries between life and death are being redefined.

NEXT May, several hundred neurologists and philosophers will gather in the resort of Varadero, Cuba, for the fifth International Symposium on the Definition of Death. At first sight, defining death might not seem like something that requires much scientific or philosophical attention. Look more closely, though, and the line between life and death is rapidly becoming increasingly fuzzy.
“The line between life and death has become increasingly fuzzy”

The problem started some 40 years ago with the invention of ventilators - machines that keep lungs breathing and hearts pumping even after the brain has suffered extensive damage. This raised for the first time the question of whether people could or should be treated as dead simply because their brain is dead. One set of philosophers argues that the destruction of the frontal lobes, with the memories and personality they encode, is enough to declare someone dead. This definition includes those in a "permanent vegetative state" - permanently unaware, but with enough brain function left to breathe unaided. Others resist the idea of brain death altogether and insist that the heart must stop beating before a body can be treated as dead. The compromise "whole-brain-death" position, which has been written into law in most of the industrialised world, is that a person can only be declared dead if almost all brain function has been irreversibly destroyed.



newscientist.com/ch annel/hea ... alth_rss20

Death is an active process. After 15 minutes, many of our cells give off complicated biochemical signals that trigger their self-destruction, so one thing we can figure out is how to undo this death message. I think that's something we can do chemically. Cooling the body can protect the cells, although nobody knows how, so learning how to do this more quickly will be important. We're also trying to develop other therapies that will allow us to communicate better with cells.

So the death message causes the cell to shut down?

It's more than that - some cells blow up. The intense reintroduction of oxygen to oxygen-starved cells makes some cells actively explode. It is a program, like the Star Trek self-destruct sequence, and we've only just begun to learn about it. Other cells respond by quietly committing suicide. When cells die, they don't just run out of gas, they flip a series of switches that set off a self-destruct sequence and each cell kills itself in a very active and intentional way.
“When some cells die, they explode. It's like the Star Trek self-destruct sequence”

What provokes the death message?

There are competing chemical pathways in cells. We normally live with a few death signals and a few life signals that usually stay in balance. When the blood flow stops - a process called ischaemia - the death signals start to increase. The life signals try to keep up, but we've learned that the way we restore oxygen when we restart blood flow actually flips the balance so the death signals dominate.

So giving oxygen in resuscitation is actually a bad thing?

Giving oxygen can be a double-edged sword. You've got to have oxygen, but it has some positive effects and some negative effects. It was a big surprise when we first learned this. We grew cardiac cells that actually started to beat, and then we took their oxygen away. They stopped beating and just sat there. They didn't look too healthy but they didn't look dead. Then we gave the cells back their normal oxygen and under the intense conditions of reperfusion, they suddenly exploded.

We wrote it up and sent it to a journal, but they rejected it immediately, saying it couldn't be true. So we did more tests and were eventually able to publish our findings. It sparked our whole line of research into what we call reperfusion injury - the idea that giving the cells oxygen can kill them.

How can you improve that situation?

It may come down to new drugs and devices, as well as figuring out where exactly the death signals are coming from and somehow stopping them.

I think of the cell as being booby-trapped for death and there's actually an important reason for this. There are cells all the time that we have to kill off - old cells that aren't working too well, malignant cells that we don't want to grow into a cancer, infected cells that we don't want infecting the rest of the body. There's no way to have multicellular life without having very active death pathways. So we think that after ischaemia there's a response that tells more cells to die. If we can temporarily put that on hold, we can make significant headway.

How can you stop cells dying after ischaemia?

We can work on how we give oxygen and we can learn more about how mitochondria handle oxygen. A point of real surprise for me was when many indicators started to point to mitochondria as being not the organelles of energy, as I thought they were, but the organelles that control death. Many of us grew up thinking that mitochondria provide energy for the cell, but it turns out that one of their most important functions is cell death. That's a very new understanding. There are actually scientists who say that of the two functions - death and energy production - the more important one is death.

One of the differences between our, eukaryotic, cells and bacteria, which are prokaryotic, is that bacteria lack mitochondria. If you're a bacterium, what is your goal in life? To be two cells. What cells in our body are sort of like that? Cancer cells. So in many ways, cancer is a very natural thing, it's a throwback to the way our cells behaved before they had mitochondria.


newscientist.com/c hannel/opi ... brink.html
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Old 10th June 2008, 03:22 PM   #37
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The R-complex is named for the most advanced part of the brain higher mammals share with reptiles. It is responsible for rage[1], xenophobia[1], and basic survival fight-or-flight responses[1]. Often, the R-Complex can override the more rational function of the brain and result in unpredictable, primitive behavior in even the most sentient of creatures, humans included. A well developed and healthy neo-cortex can monitor R-Complex activity in sentient beings. The Reptilian complex is the most ancient part of a very successful brain scheme, evolutionarily speaking.



wikipedia.org/wiki/ Reptilian_brain

Are we witnessing a further example of how to access the reptillian complex of the human brain? Why are the neurologists, sociologists and psychologists not looking in detail at this fascinating human behaviour?

Where are the conferences, the textbooks, the exam questions?
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Old 10th June 2008, 03:25 PM   #38
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I think the Preechure just looks like he was raised from the dead.
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Old 10th June 2008, 03:27 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by clivedurdle View Post
from skepticcs site I posted to and what is going on in lakeland is real
CD, I'm confused about why you posted this. Can you perhaps offer your thoughts on this and how you see it relating to your OP? As it is, its a rather disjointed read. Though I am intrigued at the idea of "several hundred neurologists and philosophers" gatherin in cuba to define death. Sounds like the opening of a sci-fi book to me.
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Old 10th June 2008, 03:31 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by madurobob
I, um, think those are oranges. And, FWIW, Lakeland does have an entire college campus by Frank Lloyd Wright, the largest single collection of Wright buildings anywhere.

If you want to talk crazy charismatics/fundamentalists I think you have to consider Colorado Springs.

Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
There's also The People's Republic of Boulder
No, I'm afraid Boulder doesn't hold a patch on CS. It tries, but there is just no depth there, and its all wasted on New Age garg. Florida is the Mecca, and CS is Medina, and the rest is just a sand box by comparison.

Last edited by shadron; 10th June 2008 at 03:32 PM.
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