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#1 |
Other (please write in)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,302
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Kucinich Introduces 35 Articles of Impeachment
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Yes, he read all of them, taking a few hours on CSPAN. Woot ![]() (I won't say what exactly "it" is, but it is in the DSM-IV) |
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As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn |
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#2 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,837
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#3 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,280
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Very interesting. In order to read this into the Congressional record, did the articles of impeachment have to have been passed by a committee? Did this need to be put on the calender by the Speaker of the House?
Or was this something that Kucinich could simply do on his own? My understanding of how the govt works has some real holes in it, I admit. |
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#4 |
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,221
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Bring it on.
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#5 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,797
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#6 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 32,111
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I think it'll be hard to show that Bush actually lied rather than just being a moron with convictions that lead to poor decisions.
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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#7 |
Queer Propagandist
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,545
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He is a great citizen, and he clearly loves his country very much. Plus he is so cute and cuddly looking, I just want to give him a bear hug every time I see him.
It's a shame that only .001% of the population take him seriously, because I believe his criticisms of Our Glorious Christian Leader are spot on. I guess he does serve some purpose for the rest of the Demoncratic Party, in that they can point to the cute little thing and say "Look, we're not that left wing." I agree with the others who've said that nothing will come of this, but at least it is in the Congressional Record, and this will be available to historians documenting the worst President in the history of our nation. <Comic_Book_Guy> Worst President ever! </Comic_Book_Guy> |
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#8 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,797
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#9 |
Salted Sith Cynic
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,527
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IIRC, he moved last year to impeach VP Cheney.
His leadership is such that most of the Congress has him on ignore. Too bad, it would have been interesting to see this play out. Two baby boomer presidents, two impeachment proceedings. Another reason not to vote for Hillary: wrong generation to be president. DR |
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Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis |
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#10 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,228
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Funny thing is, not one 'news' source (on television) has even mentioned this.
I am sure every damn talking head knows what Dennis did last night, but they sure wont talk about it. News? ![]() |
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#11 |
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,504
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That's the point, its NOT news. Perhaps if fellow-democrat Nancy hadn't killed it in committee, it would be news. But she did, and it isn't.
Now, I'm fairly certain if it was introduced (or at least co-sponsored) by a republican, it would major news on the political talking-head news tour regardless of being 'off the table'. But it wasn't, and it isn't. |
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#12 |
Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 31,264
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Any congresscritter can read whatever the hell he wants into the record*. The real question is are these some kind of actual preliminary impeachement documents that have gotten any further than that with respect to any committees?
* They don't even have to read it. They can order a |
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"Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? |
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#13 |
Salted Sith Cynic
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,527
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Indeed, the burden of proof required for a finding of guilty would be difficult to achieve. Then again, since it's a political proceeding (see the impeachment of Andrew Johnson) I doubt the Congress folks give a hoot.
Absent 60 votes in the Senate ahead of time, is it worth the bother? Maybe two years ago. Now, maybe it's time to let the lame duck swim off into the sunset. DR |
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Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis |
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#14 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,432
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45 es un titere |
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#15 |
Banned
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,581
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Kucinich is quite right on this matter - and not the only person to have come up with the idea. I truly wish it would/could happen just as I would love Shrub to be tried and properly punished for treason. But it isn't going to happen any more than large corporations are going to be allowed to go under and help will be provided to keep that from happening to most non-political individuals.
Unfortunately, being right on one thing does not make an electable person out of a partial nutter. ![]() |
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#16 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 18,881
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Anybody have a link to the text of the actual 35 counts? Even Kucinich appears to know this isn't going anywhere; there's no mention of it on his website, where the latest news is that he's looking into the suspension of home-equity lines of credit.
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My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog. |
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#17 |
Cuddly Like a Koala Bear
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,270
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Kucinich is correct in his charges, of course. Only politics has prevented impeachment from taking place. From a legal standpoint, the actions of the Bush administration have very clearly sunk to the level at which impeachment is a very obvious and proper step.
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#18 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,822
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I'm going to say this is obviously symbolic ... and I'm going to say I adore him for it. I've always loved Kucinich.
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#19 |
I'm watching you
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,320
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This is a sig file. Does anyone even read this stuff? |
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#20 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,861
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The chances of any impeachment proceeding going forward make Kucinch's presidential run look viable in comparison. Maybe he could summon those aliens he saw from Shirley MacLaine's porch for extraterrestrial help in the matter. He will need to consult with the other bug wit MacLaine for contact instructions.
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#21 |
Scholar
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 85
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Here's a link for all 35 articles and details about each one.
Link Some of these are quite a stretch. For example, Article XXIV Spying on American Citizens, Without a Court-Ordered Warrant, in Violation of the Law and the Fourth Amendment. The Patriot Act made this legal whether you like it or not. And that is just the tip of the iceberg. He also makes a lot of other claims, such as stealing natural resources from Iraq, which he bases on a hydrocarbon law ![]() |
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#22 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,280
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Thanks Beerina. I didn't realize that an entry in the Congressional Record could be so irrelevant as to what was actually going on in the various committees and what was scheduled on the calendar by the Speaker. So I found TBs OP to be really startling. But now that I know... Well it was still a good move by Kucinich. Good for him. ![]() |
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#23 |
Banned
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#24 |
Master Cylinder
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,491
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Ah, Kucinich. He drives Cleveland to bankruptcy and then they send him off to Washington to bankrupt everyone else, too!
I get the whole not liking Bush thing, I'm right there with you, but just because he also dislikes Bush doesn't make him a great politician. |
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#25 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 92,072
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Olberman did, and actually had a Constitutional Law professor on to discuss it. The opinion, no question there were a number of impeachable offenses in the mix. And the sad fact is according to the law prof., that Congress is duplicitous in letting Bush get away with these abuses of power. They are more worried about the next election than they are about the very important Constitutional principles involved. The Dems, included Obama BTW, care more about their likely gain of both the White House and the Congress so they are afraid to take a chance.
I find that rather frightening considering it could set a really bad precedent. And if Bush does any serious damage in the next few months what will that say then? It is also extremely disturbing that the news media and much of the public I assume are not outraged by the things Bush has done. Kucinich is not a flake, he is a man of principle. Kucinich is the man McCain pretends he is. Here's a link to the Olbermann piece. |
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#26 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 92,072
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Actually, I don't believe that is true. The second thing you posted is what is true. The proof is there, everyone seems to even know it, but the political will is what is not there.
Listen to the law professor, Jonathan Turley on Olbermann on the above link to hear what crimes Bush clearly has committed. According to Turley, you can't walk around the Capital without "tripping on the evidence". |
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#27 |
Salted Sith Cynic
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,527
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Perhaps you are right, except for the word proof. The law prof, according to you, points to "evidence." There is evidence in support of some complaints and charges, sure, but a great deal of what is objected to is interpretation, and loophole diving. The entire Gitmo deal hinges upon two differing legal viewpoints of what is or is not within the letter of the law.
Look at the case of Scooter Libby, who was found guilty, though of a cover up. There is no reason to think that where these is smoke there isn't fire, so perhaps that is what the professor is alluding to. When it comes to substantive breaking of regs or rules, we find Armitage admitted screwing up in the Plame case, a while after the fact, and was basically left alone. Curious, given the amount of sound and fury over the Plame/Wilson case. The whole thing is swimming in politics.
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Let us suppose that the law professor is correct. There is evidence in surplus of all sorts of illegality, high crimes, misdemeanors, skullduggery, coverups, and so on. Why did the Cheney impeachment initiative go nowhere? If the evidence is there, why the inaction in Congress? My point on the burden of proof has to do with a powerful enough batch of evidence that eight Senators cross the aisle ,and vote against the President. Remember, politics. I'd not mix a courtroom setting with a proceeding in Congress. I don't hold lawyers and judges in such low regard. DR |
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Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis |
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#28 |
Banned
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#29 |
Banned
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#30 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,219
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#31 |
Salted Sith Cynic
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,527
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Which is why the checks and balances model includes the third party, the Supreme Court, as the honest broker when the other two branches get into a dispute over the Constitutionality of one thing or another.
It is also why impeachment is a venue for removing criminal and illegal activity in the executive branch. Think for a moment here, Jerome is on the right track. Congress puts a law together. President vetoes it. Congress overrides the veto. Executive refuses to execute. What next? Charges. Into court. The court rules. One of the two sides is deemed to be correct, or more Constitutionally correct. It is not correct to assume that the legislative branch is by default and position correct. It could be ruled either way, depending upon the case. What the executive would be doing in that case is challenging the legislative body: oh, you say it's Constitutional? Well, I'm calling your bluff, off to court we go. Checks and balances in action. DR |
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Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis |
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#32 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 25,817
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Yeah, I skimmed through it and I don't think most of them are impeachable.
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First of all I don't think the 9/11 attacks were conflated. How can you measure how an event is being conflated beyond its scope anyway? Also, I don't think they've ever said that Saddam was behind 9/11, but put him in the context of possible attacks of the same nature, which is not far fetched. Some of them are just bizarre:
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I guess the twoofers got to him. Why doesn't he blame AQ for this one, aren't they the ones who made the buildings come down in the first place? |
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#33 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 20,666
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"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets |
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#34 |
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#35 |
Banned
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#36 |
Salted Sith Cynic
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,527
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Quote:
Dennis ought not to shoot himself in the foot like that. DR |
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Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis |
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#38 |
Banned
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Posts: 7,861
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#39 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: orange country, california
Posts: 9,434
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Darth Rotor said it above, but just to repeat impeachment is a political process. There is barely anything objective about it.
Its only practical purpose is to provide a mechanism for removing a president that is so obviously a problem that his own party will move to remove him. That was the case with Nixon after the tapes became available but Nixon would never have been removed from office without this extraordinary event. I think Bush is the worst president of my life and I think that some of his actions should be impeachable. None the less if I was a Democrat I would vote against impeachment. Until a reasonable contingent of Republicans get on board there is no chance that Bush would be removed from office as the result of an impeachment and it is not clear that the swing voters are going to be all that enthused about an impeachment that is purely a political show, especially at this point in the Bush presidency. I'm happy that Kuchich did his thing here, but as a practical matter it is not going very far because there just aren't going to be many other Democrats with him on this when the political consequences are so uncertain. The more interesting question to me is whether I would vote for impeachment if I was a Republican congressman with views similar to mine on this. Doing so would likely alienate me from my party permanently. I would have difficulty getting bills passed and the chances of getting party support for pork for my district would be zero. On the other hand the corrupt and inept Bush administration has savaged the Republican Party and by not taking a stand against it the Republican Party has doomed itself to minority status, probably for at least the next ten years or so. So what to do? I might try to figure out what was in the best interest of my country and just take that path with the consequences be damned. But if I was the sort of fellow who would do something like that I probably never would have gotten the party support to get elected in the first place. |
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#40 |
Queer Propagandist
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,545
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As usual, Davefoc, a very well worded message.
Maybe the best thing Republican legislators can do for themselves right now is to repudiate some components of the Party of Jesus as it currently exists. I think we may see a dramatic reshuffling in the Republican Party over the next few years. It is conceivable, to me at least, that this election will be more catastrophic for them than 2006 was. I think they may need to completely reinvent themselves in order to go forward. The first thing they should do is renounce neocons and dominionists, two influences that have virtually brought them to ruin, along with hundreds of thousands of corpses. While I might be tickled if they also divorced all of the Fundamentalist wing of their party, that is unrealistic. The Republican Party has become synonymous with Fundamentalist Christianity IMHO, and while it seemed like a great marriage in 1992, Fundamentalism is not doing so well with young people today. If the Republican Party were to morph themselves into the original type of conservative that tries to conserve things instead of blowing everything up, and if they are able to see that being green is consistent with being conservative, I think their future prospects might improve. Note that a great deal of wishful thinking was used in the construction of this message. |
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