ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags anti-semitism , larry silverstein , wtc7

Reply
Old 30th June 2008, 08:37 PM   #1
1337m4n
Alphanumeric Anonymous Stick Man
 
1337m4n's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,510
Are Truthers' accusations against Silverstein based on latent anti-Semitism?

I have created this thread to continue a tangent discussion which started in this thread, starting, I think, on page 5. I have respect for Max Photon so I do not wish to continue derailing his thread.


For those who were not following, we were discussing whether the accusations made against Larry Silverstein--of lying, of complicity, of a cover-up, of fraud, etc--are, deep down, motivated by anti-Semitism on the part of the accuser.

Pomeroo and I believe this is the case, based on the utter lack of evidence for any sort of malice on Silverstein's part, the Truth Movement's obsession with the WTC7 case despite minimal differences between it and the cases of other auxiliary WTC buildings, the Truth Movement's cherrypicking and persistent harping on Silverstein's "pull it" quote even after it was proven that the term is NOT demolition slang, and the great deal of known anti-Semitism within the Truth Movement.
__________________
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...2b728514ea.gif

"The evidence that the attacks of 9/11 were an inside job just keeps not coming in." --pomeroo

Last edited by 1337m4n; 30th June 2008 at 08:46 PM.
1337m4n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2008, 08:40 PM   #2
~enigma~
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,923
Originally Posted by 1337m4n View Post
I have created this thread to continue a tangent discussion which started in this thread, starting, I think, on page 5. I have respect for Max Photon so I do not wish to continue derailing his thread.
It's not latent. They may think it doesn't show but it does.
~enigma~ is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2008, 08:43 PM   #3
adversity1
Scholar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 83
I had a totally strange encounter with this 'theory' the other day. I was chilling at home with a good friend and I brought up the idiocy of Yukihisa Fujita and how I was writing a longer piece on the truthers. And he suddenly looked at me and said 'but you know there was something fishy about how those towers fell'. I snapped around, confused. This guy had openly sympathized with my paper the time I mentioned it to him before, but here he was giving me really limp trutherisms? I quickly debunked all his WTC1 and 2 points and then he came around to 7 and said 'the Jewish family that owned those towers made millions off of that'. I immediately asked him why he made sure to say Jewish. He was basically stunned and couldn't respond. He had realized that he was spouting off anti-semitism without even thinking about it. I then pointed out how Silverstein (and not his family) in fact lost money on the site, yada yada.

It really shocked me and told me that a lot of people have swallowed this little big lie that floats around internet 'consciousness'.
adversity1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2008, 09:00 PM   #4
MarkyX
Master Poster
 
MarkyX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,157
I gave this a mention and Pomeroo picked up on it at another thread, so I might as well give my two cents.

The problem with WTC7 is no crime has been committed.

- No bombs were found in the debris
- No visual or audio evidence indicates any explosives
- No one died
- Numerous members of the FDNY knew about the collapse
- Other WTC buildings have collapsed
- The insurance companies do not see anything wrong with Larry's case
- Larry rebuilt WTC7 in the end and didn't gain a profit

Of course, many 9/11 deniers love to bring up the strawman argument about how "WTC7 wasn't mentioned in the 9/11 commission. Why is this a strawman?

- WTC7 wasn't a terrorist target
- Many other buildings collapsed on that day and weren't mentioned
- Again, no one died, so why bother reporting it?
- It was expected to collapse, see above point.

The reason why WTC7 gains the spotlight is because of Larry's bloodline. Why do the 9/11 deniers bring up PNAC? Jews were part of it. Why must the PM editor must be the cousin of someone at Homeland security? Jews. How does a bunch of people dancing "fit" into the theory? Because they were Jews. Can't trust the mainstream media? Run by jews, of course!

Hell, didn't Hitler mentioned "Bankers control everything" ? Much like 9/11 Mysterious source, Eric Hufschmid?
__________________
MarkyX's Haunted Bloghouse - Read my boredom
MarkyX is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2008, 09:13 PM   #5
DavidJames
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Front Range, CO
Posts: 10,493
Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
It's not latent. They may think it doesn't show but it does.
Sorry, but this logic is no different then the CTists. No doubt there are anti-semitic CTists, but we don't do the cause of skepticism any favors by making such claims without evidence. The same goes for those who want to lay this at the feet of "leftists".

We demand evidence by the CTists to support their claims, I suggest we ask no less of ourselves.
DavidJames is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2008, 09:16 PM   #6
~enigma~
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,923
Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
Sorry, but this logic is no different then the CTists. No doubt there are anti-semitic CTists, but we don't do the cause of skepticism any favors by making such claims without evidence. The same goes for those who want to lay this at the feet of "leftists".

We demand evidence by the CTists to support their claims, I suggest we ask no less of ourselves.
So you believe there are no outward and obvious anti-semites in the bowel movement? Or rather you claim there is no evidence of any outward anti-semitism in the bowel movement?
~enigma~ is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2008, 09:19 PM   #7
funk de fino
Dreaming of unicorns
 
funk de fino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 11,938
I think originally the accusers did it because of his religion and some still do.

The majority of the TM now do it through blatant stupidity rather than the religious angle IMO. What gets me are the posters on here who are obviously quite intelligent who still cling to the "pull it" theory. There has to be an underlying factor whether it be because they hate rich people or because he is a jew. Either that or the loss of the pull it theory is the last jenga piece they have left before they realise the fantasy they have clung to is total bunk and will collapse if they move that piece.
__________________

Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase.
funk de fino is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2008, 09:23 PM   #8
Max Photon
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,592
Originally Posted by 1337m4n View Post
I have created this thread to continue a tangent discussion which started in this thread, starting, I think, on page 5. I have respect for Max Photon so I do not wish to continue derailing his thread.

Thank you sir.
Max Photon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2008, 09:25 PM   #9
pomeroo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,081
Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
Sorry, but this logic is no different then the CTists. No doubt there are anti-semitic CTists, but we don't do the cause of skepticism any favors by making such claims without evidence. The same goes for those who want to lay this at the feet of "leftists".

We demand evidence by the CTists to support their claims, I suggest we ask no less of ourselves.

David, I asked RedIbis to denounce the vicious Jew-haters in the fantasy movement who promote nonsensical myths about "dancing Jews," Mossad agents, and mysterious messages warning Jews to stay out of the Towers on 9/11. He refuses to do so. This represents the first principled stand he has ever taken. What do you suppose the principle is?
pomeroo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2008, 09:29 PM   #10
Max Photon
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,592
Are Truthers' accusations against Silverstein based on latent anti-Semitism?

Hmmmm.....now it's okay to question motives?
Max Photon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2008, 09:30 PM   #11
~enigma~
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,923
Originally Posted by Max Photon View Post
Hmmmm.....now it's okay to question motives?
Who said we can't question motives....jesus?

ETA - do you think the jew hating from the truthers is commendable? Do you agree with them or do you renounce their idiocy?

Last edited by ~enigma~; 30th June 2008 at 09:32 PM.
~enigma~ is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2008, 10:29 PM   #12
metamars
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,207
Originally Posted by 1337m4n View Post
I have created this thread to continue a tangent discussion which started in this thread, starting, I think, on page 5. I have respect for Max Photon so I do not wish to continue derailing his thread.


For those who were not following, we were discussing whether the accusations made against Larry Silverstein--of lying, of complicity, of a cover-up, of fraud, etc--are, deep down, motivated by anti-Semitism on the part of the accuser.

Pomeroo and I believe this is the case, based on the utter lack of evidence for any sort of malice on Silverstein's part, the Truth Movement's obsession with the WTC7 case despite minimal differences between it and the cases of other auxiliary WTC buildings, the Truth Movement's cherrypicking and persistent harping on Silverstein's "pull it" quote even after it was proven that the term is NOT demolition slang, and the great deal of known anti-Semitism within the Truth Movement.
If you ask a random sample of, say, 1,000 911 Truthers who are familiar with the collapse of WTC7, whether or not they believe that the "pull it" quote is significant or not, and whether they agree with your ridiculous statement about "minimal differences between it and the cases of other auxiliary WTC buildings", how many of them will have been convinced by the stellar logic of the JREF community?

Myself, I'd put it at less than 1%. That's a guess, but it's probably better than yours.

If I'm correct, the very premises of your question is ludicrous, and personally, I can't help but escape the feeling that you, pomeroo, and others are trying to beat the anti-Semitic dead horse to death.

Do you have any idea how stupid it is to ask such a loaded question? You ask a question which implies that you and pomeroo are so dumb that you can't figure out, without somebody pointing it out to you, that your convictions about WTC 7 are either unknown to WTC7 aware truthers, or else have been REJECTED by them. (I note that you conflate common sense interpretations of "pull it" with industry slang interpretation, as though Silverstein was a practitioner of the art! Oh, say now, that's really brilliant!)

Actually, if your intention is to smear 911 Truthers, using innuendo of anti-Semitism are just as good as any other approach. Just keep repeating "Anti-Semite" or "Jew hater" in conjunction with "911 Truth" for enough years, and the shallow of mind are sure to internalize this meme. In this case, I wouldn't call it stupid. I would call it disgusting, though. As a propaganda technique, it may be effective, but the immorality of it is repulsive.

Why don't you and pomeroo put signs on your foreheads, saying, "Looking to smear YOU with anti-Semitism"? Oh, right, your question gives it away. Either that, or you're both incredibly dumb.

Speaking of WTC 7, BTW, I have just posted a link to a new paper by Charles M. Beck on the subject. In his abstract, he states that the first 16-26 m of descent was a free fall. Would you also have us believe that 911 Truthers would find this suspicious only because Silverstein is Jewish, and the Truthers are anti-Semitic?

Apparently so, but the looniness of such a claim speaks to the mentality of the claimants, itself.

Here's a more reasonable question: "Are nasty debunkers jumping on the 'Anti-Semites 'R You' bandwagon because the WTC 7 NIST report - whether a reasonable one or a laughable one - is nowhere to be seen?"

Somehow, I don't think you'll want to discuss that question, especially if the NIST report is delayed another 10 or 20 years.
metamars is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2008, 10:47 PM   #13
funk de fino
Dreaming of unicorns
 
funk de fino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 11,938
Originally Posted by metamars View Post
If you ask a random sample of, say, 1,000 911 Truthers who are familiar with the collapse of WTC7, whether or not they believe that the "pull it" quote is significant or not, and whether they agree with your ridiculous statement about "minimal differences between it and the cases of other auxiliary WTC buildings", how many of them will have been convinced by the stellar logic of the JREF community?

Myself, I'd put it at less than 1%. That's a guess, but it's probably better than yours.

If I'm correct, the very premises of your question is ludicrous, and personally, I can't help but escape the feeling that you, pomeroo, and others are trying to beat the anti-Semitic dead horse to death.

Do you have any idea how stupid it is to ask such a loaded question? You ask a question which implies that you and pomeroo are so dumb that you can't figure out, without somebody pointing it out to you, that your convictions about WTC 7 are either unknown to WTC7 aware truthers, or else have been REJECTED by them. (I note that you conflate common sense interpretations of "pull it" with industry slang interpretation, as though Silverstein was a practitioner of the art! Oh, say now, that's really brilliant!)

Actually, if your intention is to smear 911 Truthers, using innuendo of anti-Semitism are just as good as any other approach. Just keep repeating "Anti-Semite" or "Jew hater" in conjunction with "911 Truth" for enough years, and the shallow of mind are sure to internalize this meme. In this case, I wouldn't call it stupid. I would call it disgusting, though. As a propaganda technique, it may be effective, but the immorality of it is repulsive.

Why don't you and pomeroo put signs on your foreheads, saying, "Looking to smear YOU with anti-Semitism"? Oh, right, your question gives it away. Either that, or you're both incredibly dumb.

Speaking of WTC 7, BTW, I have just posted a link to a new paper by Charles M. Beck on the subject. In his abstract, he states that the first 16-26 m of descent was a free fall. Would you also have us believe that 911 Truthers would find this suspicious only because Silverstein is Jewish, and the Truthers are anti-Semitic?

Apparently so, but the looniness of such a claim speaks to the mentality of the claimants, itself.

Here's a more reasonable question: "Are nasty debunkers jumping on the 'Anti-Semites 'R You' bandwagon because the WTC 7 NIST report - whether a reasonable one or a laughable one - is nowhere to be seen?"

Somehow, I don't think you'll want to discuss that question, especially if the NIST report is delayed another 10 or 20 years.

Do you condemn the jew hating bigot truthers who post their filth here and on other sites?

Or just debunkers who try to call the movement on it?
__________________

Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase.
funk de fino is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2008, 10:48 PM   #14
metamars
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,207
I've muddled things by criticizing the "loaded question". The question I refer to is not explicit, but implicit in

Quote:
we were discussing whether the accusations made against Larry Silverstein--of lying, of complicity, of a cover-up, of fraud, etc--are, deep down, motivated by anti-Semitism on the part of the accuser.
I.e., the (implicit) question is "are accusations made against Larry Silverstein motivated by anti-Semitism on the part of the accuser?"
metamars is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2008, 10:56 PM   #15
metamars
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,207
Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Do you condemn the jew hating bigot truthers who post their filth here and on other sites?

Or just debunkers who try to call the movement on it?
Don't you mean "debunkers who try to SMEAR the entire movement based on some jew hating bigot truthers?" Or are you, too, unable to distinguish between the two?

Do tell.
metamars is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2008, 11:41 PM   #16
LashL
Goddess of Legaltainment™
 
LashL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 35,552
Originally Posted by metamars View Post
<snipped blather>

You've done a reasonably good job of refuting that which you thought you thought you were supporting. Typical twoofer tripe.

*slow one handed clap*

Now, do you have anything of substance to say about the matter at hand?
LashL is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 12:17 AM   #17
bio
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 883
have fun with your conspiracy theory
bio is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 12:21 AM   #18
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
Originally Posted by metamars View Post
If you ask a random sample of, say, 1,000 911 Truthers who are familiar with the collapse of WTC7, whether or not they believe that the "pull it" quote is significant or not, and whether they agree with your ridiculous statement about "minimal differences between it and the cases of other auxiliary WTC buildings", how many of them will have been convinced by the stellar logic of the JREF community?

Myself, I'd put it at less than 1%. That's a guess, but it's probably better than yours.

If I'm correct, the very premises of your question is ludicrous, and personally, I can't help but escape the feeling that you, pomeroo, and others are trying to beat the anti-Semitic dead horse to death.

Do you have any idea how stupid it is to ask such a loaded question? You ask a question which implies that you and pomeroo are so dumb that you can't figure out, without somebody pointing it out to you, that your convictions about WTC 7 are either unknown to WTC7 aware truthers, or else have been REJECTED by them. (I note that you conflate common sense interpretations of "pull it" with industry slang interpretation, as though Silverstein was a practitioner of the art! Oh, say now, that's really brilliant!)

Actually, if your intention is to smear 911 Truthers, using innuendo of anti-Semitism are just as good as any other approach. Just keep repeating "Anti-Semite" or "Jew hater" in conjunction with "911 Truth" for enough years, and the shallow of mind are sure to internalize this meme. In this case, I wouldn't call it stupid. I would call it disgusting, though. As a propaganda technique, it may be effective, but the immorality of it is repulsive.

Why don't you and pomeroo put signs on your foreheads, saying, "Looking to smear YOU with anti-Semitism"? Oh, right, your question gives it away. Either that, or you're both incredibly dumb.

Speaking of WTC 7, BTW, I have just posted a link to a new paper by Charles M. Beck on the subject. In his abstract, he states that the first 16-26 m of descent was a free fall. Would you also have us believe that 911 Truthers would find this suspicious only because Silverstein is Jewish, and the Truthers are anti-Semitic?

Apparently so, but the looniness of such a claim speaks to the mentality of the claimants, itself.

Here's a more reasonable question: "Are nasty debunkers jumping on the 'Anti-Semites 'R You' bandwagon because the WTC 7 NIST report - whether a reasonable one or a laughable one - is nowhere to be seen?"

Somehow, I don't think you'll want to discuss that question, especially if the NIST report is delayed another 10 or 20 years.
I see it has taken you many words to say "yes".

Why do you hate Jews so?
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 12:28 AM   #19
Arus808
Philosopher
 
Arus808's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,204
Truther have to accept the fact that many of the "talking points" originated from Holocaust deniers and jew haters.
__________________
Back home with a new sunburn...I look like a tomato.

“Life may begin at 30, but it doesn’t get real interesting until about 150.”
“Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle.”
Arus808 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 02:33 AM   #20
funk de fino
Dreaming of unicorns
 
funk de fino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 11,938
Originally Posted by metamars View Post
Don't you mean "debunkers who try to SMEAR the entire movement based on some jew hating bigot truthers?" Or are you, too, unable to distinguish between the two?

Do tell.
I aksed you a question. I will answer you when you answer me.

Do you condemn the jew haters and bigots in the TM? Especially the ones that post here?
__________________

Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase.
funk de fino is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 02:34 AM   #21
BenBurch
Gatekeeper of The Left
 
BenBurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one.
Posts: 37,535
LATENT? They practically wear armbands with swastikas on them.
__________________
For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system?
BenBurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 03:10 AM   #22
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 25,097
Originally Posted by metamars View Post
If you ask a random sample of, say, 1,000 911 Truthers... <snip>
Wouldn't that be pretty much all of them?
__________________
A møøse ønce bit my sister
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 03:39 AM   #23
twinstead
Penultimate Amazing
 
twinstead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,370
I guess conspiracy makes strange bedfellows. Some people simply refuse to come right out and condemn those in their own ranks who are ignorant racists, even though those people put their entire movement in a bad light, simply because they are 'truther' brethren.

One would think that in a movement that draws crazies like a candle draws moths the few sane people would be distancing themselves like crazy.
__________________
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. -- Harlan Ellison
twinstead is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 04:19 AM   #24
cludgie
Critical Thinker
 
cludgie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 312
Originally Posted by Arus808 View Post
Truther have to accept the fact that many of the "talking points" originated from Holocaust deniers and jew haters.
Yup, and you get some who embrace theories because they are anti-semitic and some who embrace them and just ignore the roots ('my enemys enemy is my friend', 'any port in a storm' and all that)
cludgie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 05:17 AM   #25
BigAl
Philosopher
 
BigAl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,397
Originally Posted by adversity1 View Post
I quickly debunked all his WTC1 and 2 points and then he came around to 7 and said 'the Jewish family that owned those towers made millions off of that'.
Here in the NYC suburbs, I had a friend, a grand-mother, who never gets in to Manhattan and like everyone and can barely use the Internet, pop out with "did any Jews dies in WTC"? It was when Rudy was running for the "The President of 9/11" and we were in her kitchen talking about Rudy.

It's in the water.
BigAl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 05:20 AM   #26
~enigma~
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,923
Nice that the two so called truthers have avoided answering the question although they have both taken part in this thread and both claim that it is "debunkers" that are anti-semitic. Glad they will not denounce the rabid anti-semitism of a few. Guess that means I have 2 more to put on ignore...
~enigma~ is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 05:30 AM   #27
fullflavormenthol
Master Poster
 
fullflavormenthol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,415
I think a good case study is David Icke. Now by all indications he actually believes in Reptilian aliens, but it is so tied into old anti-semitism that he has followers who take talk of reptilians as sort of a "wink wink, nudge nudge" referring to Jews.

So people in the movement might be ignorant, but a lot that comes out in regards to Silverstein, Rothschild, etc is clearly anti-semitic; even if those who push these theories want to ignore it. So my answer is yes, it is latent anti-Semitism.
__________________
"Burning people! He says what we're all thinking!" -GLaDOS
fullflavormenthol is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 05:37 AM   #28
Ragnarok
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 492
Is there an equivalent to the Godwin, for when people bring anti-Semitism into an argument? If not, can I call it a Schnitzel?
Ragnarok is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 05:41 AM   #29
~enigma~
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,923
Originally Posted by Ragnarok View Post
Is there an equivalent to the Godwin, for when people bring anti-Semitism into an argument? If not, can I call it a Schnitzel?
Cholent....call it Cholent.
~enigma~ is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 05:45 AM   #30
Ragnarok
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 492
Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
Cholent....call it Cholent.
I like the idea of it stewing in a crock pot! Go on, you've convinced me...but I want accreditation.
Ragnarok is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 05:45 AM   #31
eeyore1954
Philosopher
 
eeyore1954's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,394
While there is plenty of anti semitism in the truth movement (especially in the roots) I would suspect if Mr Silversteins name was O'Donnel or Stromboli the theories about pull it would still be there.
It just so happens the owner of WTC 7 was Jewish.
There is no lack of hate for Guiliani , Cheney or Bush in the truth movement.
eeyore1954 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 05:47 AM   #32
BenBurch
Gatekeeper of The Left
 
BenBurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one.
Posts: 37,535
It was pointed out to me just now that there might be an irrational and genocidal hatred of Israel distinct from the irrational and genocidal hated of jews.

Comments?
__________________
For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system?
BenBurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 05:54 AM   #33
Ragnarok
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 492
Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
It was pointed out to me just now that there might be an irrational and genocidal hatred of Israel distinct from the irrational and genocidal hated of jews.

Comments?

Bearing in mind Israel only exists because of acts carried out by Western governments, and their continued support, it is hardly surprising they have few fans in the East, is it?
Ragnarok is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 05:57 AM   #34
MarkyX
Master Poster
 
MarkyX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,157
Originally Posted by Ragnarok View Post
Bearing in mind Israel only exists because of acts carried out by Western governments, and their continued support, it is hardly surprising they have few fans in the East, is it?
The land Israel was given didn't belong to the East. It was a British Colony.
__________________
MarkyX's Haunted Bloghouse - Read my boredom
MarkyX is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 06:02 AM   #35
Confuseling
Irreligious fanatic
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,243
I'm not 100% convinced on this one. I'm a staunch leftist, and the first to condemn those who conflate criticism of Jews (or more specifically Israel) with anti-semitism. Nobody can deny that the two cross over, but nobody can deny that it is sometimes used as a mindless (and distressingly effective) debate closing tactic.

There undoubtedly is a seam of quite virulent racism in the truth movement. You can see it in every statement of incredulity over the "cave dwelling" terrorists capabilities, and you can see it in the fixation over Silverstein.

But there is a danger of confusing the causal relation here. Remember always that somebody who believes in the 911 stuff has some pretty messed up standards of evidence going on already. They are exposed to the anti-semitic hysteria, and already primed to believe that our culture has fallen into a delusory post-modern consensus reality, that standard media and academia are ranged firmly against the forces of truth and light. This will lead a disproportionate number of them into anti-semitism without any need for an inherent connection between the two positions; they simply share a common disdain for mainstream belief.

They aren't prone to anti-semitism because they're truthers - they're truthers because they've lost faith in the fundamental honesty of our culture, and they may become anti-semites for the same reason. There is no more of a direct causal relation here than there is between trutherism and belief in Area 51.

That said, there is clearly a pattern, whereby anybody who seeks a sinister Svengali, a behind the scenes boogeyman, will probably pick a Jew. People in the West are sadly culturally primed for this, and mud sticks to other mud. It's awful, but it's the basic witch-burning group dynamics of human psychology, and I don't think there's lots you can do about it. It's an indelible stain written into the very fabric, perhaps even of hominids, rather than whoever you think of as the narrower 'us'.

Declared interest: My truther friend, who got me into debunking 911, and indirectly brought me to this site, has now gone full blown Holocaust revisionist. I am deeply saddened - not because we were especially close (there's only so many times you can tell a Marxist he has too much faith in the American government before he stops listening to you ), but because he, through it all, had a spark of intelligence and wit that I found beguiling. I now fear he is lost, perhaps even forever, to a dark road, and only he can decide to come back.
__________________
Drs_Res: "P.S. You have a right to free speech, but you don't have a right to be listened to." link


Join my petition. Fight the vile slurp spider scourge. Harass Darat. Can you afford not to?

Last edited by Confuseling; 1st July 2008 at 06:11 AM.
Confuseling is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 06:02 AM   #36
gtc
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,110
Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
It was pointed out to me just now that there might be an irrational and genocidal hatred of Israel distinct from the irrational and genocidal hated of jews.

Comments?
I think it would be quite possible to have an irrational hatred of Israelis while being indifferent to non-Israelis Jews.

I was reading a discussion at 911Oz today where someone seemed (if my interpretation is correct) to blame Zionists for 9/11 but thought that Christian Zionists dominated the 'plot'. So it might even be possible to have an irrational hatred of Zionists seperate to Jews or Israelis. I could find a link but it would mean wading through their cesspool again.

I think the same person made some comment about how the Arabs blamed for 9/11 were just goat molesters (or some such insult); which displays admirably evenhanded racism.
gtc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 06:11 AM   #37
RedIbis
Philosopher
 
RedIbis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,899
Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
Sorry, but this logic is no different then the CTists. No doubt there are anti-semitic CTists, but we don't do the cause of skepticism any favors by making such claims without evidence. The same goes for those who want to lay this at the feet of "leftists".

We demand evidence by the CTists to support their claims, I suggest we ask no less of ourselves.
Not so strangely, this rational post went almost completely unnoticed. This should have ended this ridiculous thread.
__________________
(RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts)
RedIbis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 06:11 AM   #38
Ragnarok
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 492
Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
The land Israel was given didn't belong to the East. It was a British Colony.
I wonder how they got it? Was it "theirs" to give, do you think?
Ragnarok is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 06:31 AM   #39
Myriad
Hyperthetical
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: A pocket paradise between the sewage treatment plant and the railroad
Posts: 14,944
"Blow up the building" is now, not the "demolition slang," but the common sense, meaning of "pull it"?

Sorry, no. If I were to hand my wife (the ultimate arbiter of common sense in my family) a detonator switch that she knew was wired to a building completely prepped for demolition, and said, "Okay, honey, the best thing to do now is pull it," she'd say, "Do what, now? What am I supposed to pull on? There's just this button. Do you want me to blow up the building now or not? And by the way, shouldn't I be standing over there where you are instead of under the building?"

(Just kidding about that last part. She'd never fall for the old stand-under-the-building-while-setting-off-the-detonators trick. That's why she's in charge of the common sense in the first place.)

As an explanation for the Truthers' collective and individual dogged insistence that Silverstein must be guilty of something, anti-semitism seems to be the one that best fits all the evidence.

Note that there are probably many cases where certain Truthers have no particular feelings about Jews (and will deeply resent any assertion that they do), but deliberately use arguments that they know will appeal to others who do. That too is a form of anti-semitism, and one that is, at best, no less vile than "honest" hatred.

There is another possibility that must be factored in, however, which is class resentment. Silverstein is seen as a 9/11 victim of sorts. He was more directly and personally involved than, say, the CEOs of the airlines and the large corporations who lost offices and staffs in the Towers, or the (faceless, it seems) managers of the Port Authority. Yet he largely escaped harm. He lost a great deal of money, but because of his many resources he was not made destitute or even put out of business. The only buildings most of us have interest in is our own domiciles and if they burned down we would either be out on the street or struggling to rebuild while making ends meet on insurance payments. Any personal anguish Silverstein might have gone through is invisible to us; we see only that he appears unaffected and that seems unfair somehow.

I don't think that alone explains it, but it probably works in concert with the anti-semitism, to greater or lesser degrees in different individuals.

Respectfully,
Myriad
__________________
A zømbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2008, 06:33 AM   #40
~enigma~
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,923
Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
There is no lack of hate for Guiliani , Cheney or Bush in the truth movement.
Well...just look at his name. Jooliani. They call Bush and Cheney zionists which allows them to place the plame squarely on Joos.
~enigma~ is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:48 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.