Regarding 'Debunking the North of the Citgo Theory'

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Reheat's analysis of the North of the Citgo hypothesis seems to have some fundamental flaws. A brief read-through reveals two such flaws:

1) Incorrect interpretation of Morin's account.
Reheat's analysis is completely dependent on Morin's statement that:
"The aircraft was essentially right over the top of me and the outer portion of the FOB (flight path parallel the outer edge of the FOB).", which produces this approximate flight path:

Reheat realizes the absurdity of such turns when he writes: "It should be noted that NO WITNESS mentioned the type of bank angles required to complete the required turns."
So if no witness reported these absurd banks, there are three possibilities:
*Morin's account is a lie.
*Morin's observation of the plane flying parallel to the annex was an approximation.
*Reheat's underlying assumptions are wrong.
The first possibility (that Morin is lying) has no evidence and would lead to the same results as the second possibility- so we can ignore it.
The second possibility seems obvious, yet Reheat's model misleadingly takes Morin's statement literally and has the plane traveling parallel to the Annex and subsequently making a huge bank into the Pentagon. Reheat admits "[t]he distances involved are very short for a fast moving, low flying aircraft", so one could hardly expect an observer to judge exact heading.
In every detail, Morin corroborates what the other witnesses described- he sees a slight turn to the right, a flash and most importantly, he sees the tail section at the time of the explosion. If the plane was at the official altitude, Morin would not have been able to see the tail, and in fact, he wouldn't have been able to see the impact at all if the official flight path was correct(pft did a video on this). Furthermore, he says the plane banked slightly to the right, and makes no mention of the 'c' flight path Reheat has constructed. Did it really never occur to Reheat that if no one observed his spectacular maneuver and that if Morin's testimony was largely consistent with the greater body of evidence, the problem might lie in his literal interpretation of the phrase 'parallel to the annex'? Did it really never occur to Reheat that Morin couldn't accurately judge absolute heading at slower speeds let alone the speed he claimed it was going, and that it was clearly an approximation which matched what the other witnesses described? What's particularly odious about this paper is that it takes one piece of testimony out of context in order to debunk several other corroborated pieces of testimony (the NOC), and does not even question the validity of the one piece of evidence. A more accurate title would be "Debunking Terry Morin's Parallel to the Annex Claim" (though, as we shall see, even that is incorrect when we consider aircraft type).

2)The Calculations are *Not* Aircraft Independent.
The author claims "[w]ithin the large transport category of aircraft that witnesses described, the calculations are specific aircraft type independent". He reasons that "ince ALL fixed wing aircraft are subject to the same bank angle and G forces in turns, the specific type of aircraft does not matter for the those numbers posted in the chart". He goes on to claim "variable wing geometry or a morphed wing using futuristic memory shape alloy metals would be subject to the same bank angle and G requirements".
But this is a contradiction. These designs are not fixed wing aircraft- the bank angles and g forces would depend on the specific shape of the wing in time. Pre-911 examples of these designs are capable of the suggested flight paths. Furthermore, technology such as thrust vectoring have been used for decades with similar increases in maneuverability. It is an absurdity to state that no aircraft could fly the proposed flight paths.

'Debunking the North of the Citgo theory' fails to debunk the North of the Citgo claim. Witness statements are inherently subjective and do not constitute accurate measurements with which one can perform calculations. The author oversteps the limitations of the data and constructs a false model that none of the witnesses described. He contradicts himself by stating the calculations are aircraft independent. More fruitful methods of studying CIT's evidence would be:

*Demonstrating interview bias

*Independent witness analysis to either confirm or negate CIT's data
 
Reheat's analysis of the North of the Citgo hypothesis seems to have some fundamental flaws. A brief read-through reveals two such flaws:

1) Incorrect interpretation of Morin's account.
Reheat's analysis is completely dependent on Morin's statement that:
"The aircraft was essentially right over the top of me and the outer portion of the FOB (flight path parallel the outer edge of the FOB).", which produces this approximate flight path:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=13096http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_2618448829626d1daa.jpg
Reheat realizes the absurdity of such turns when he writes: "It should be noted that NO WITNESS mentioned the type of bank angles required to complete the required turns."
So if no witness reported these absurd banks, there are three possibilities:
*Morin's account is a lie.
*Morin's observation of the plane flying parallel to the annex was an approximation.
*Reheat's underlying assumptions are wrong.
The first possibility (that Morin is lying) has no evidence and would lead to the same results as the second possibility- so we can ignore it.
The second possibility seems obvious, yet Reheat's model misleadingly takes Morin's statement literally and has the plane traveling parallel to the Annex and subsequently making a huge bank into the Pentagon. Reheat admits "[t]he distances involved are very short for a fast moving, low flying aircraft", so one could hardly expect an observer to judge exact heading.
In every detail, Morin corroborates what the other witnesses described- he sees a slight turn to the right, a flash and most importantly, he sees the tail section at the time of the explosion. If the plane was at the official altitude, Morin would not have been able to see the tail, and in fact, he wouldn't have been able to see the impact at all if the official flight path was correct(pft did a video on this). Furthermore, he says the plane banked slightly to the right, and makes no mention of the 'c' flight path Reheat has constructed. Did it really never occur to Reheat that if no one observed his spectacular maneuver and that if Morin's testimony was largely consistent with the greater body of evidence, the problem might lie in his literal interpretation of the phrase 'parallel to the annex'? Did it really never occur to Reheat that Morin couldn't accurately judge absolute heading at slower speeds let alone the speed he claimed it was going, and that it was clearly an approximation which matched what the other witnesses described? What's particularly odious about this paper is that it takes one piece of testimony out of context in order to debunk several other corroborated pieces of testimony (the NOC), and does not even question the validity of the one piece of evidence. A more accurate title would be "Debunking Terry Morin's Parallel to the Annex Claim" (though, as we shall see, even that is incorrect when we consider aircraft type).

2)The Calculations are *Not* Aircraft Independent.
The author claims "[w]ithin the large transport category of aircraft that witnesses described, the calculations are specific aircraft type independent". He reasons that "ince ALL fixed wing aircraft are subject to the same bank angle and G forces in turns, the specific type of aircraft does not matter for the those numbers posted in the chart". He goes on to claim "variable wing geometry or a morphed wing using futuristic memory shape alloy metals would be subject to the same bank angle and G requirements".
But this is a contradiction. These designs are not fixed wing aircraft- the bank angles and g forces would depend on the specific shape of the wing in time. Pre-911 examples of these designs are capable of the suggested flight paths. Furthermore, technology such as thrust vectoring have been used for decades with similar increases in maneuverability. It is an absurdity to state that no aircraft could fly the proposed flight paths.

'Debunking the North of the Citgo theory' fails to debunk the North of the Citgo claim. Witness statements are inherently subjective and do not constitute accurate measurements with which one can perform calculations. The author oversteps the limitations of the data and constructs a false model that none of the witnesses described. He contradicts himself by stating the calculations are aircraft independent. More fruitful methods of studying CIT's evidence would be:

*Demonstrating interview bias

*Independent witness analysis to either confirm or negate CIT's data

Psychics have followings for the same reasons you use in your post. They count the hits and discard the misses. Seems you inadvertently put CIT in the same class as Sylvia Browne...
 
Reheat's analysis of the North of the Citgo hypothesis seems to have some fundamental flaws. A brief read-through reveals two such flaws:

1) Incorrect interpretation of Morin's account.
Reheat's analysis is completely dependent on Morin's statement that:
"The aircraft was essentially right over the top of me and the outer portion of the FOB (flight path parallel the outer edge of the FOB).", which produces this approximate flight path:
[URL]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_2618448829626d1daa.jpg[/URL]
Reheat realizes the absurdity of such turns when he writes: "It should be noted that NO WITNESS mentioned the type of bank angles required to complete the required turns."
So if no witness reported these absurd banks, there are three possibilities:
*Morin's account is a lie.
*Morin's observation of the plane flying parallel to the annex was an approximation.
*Reheat's underlying assumptions are wrong.
<snip>
I think you forgot one possibility: The aircraft never flew north of the Citgo station.
 
The author claims "[w]ithin the large transport category of aircraft that witnesses described, the calculations are specific aircraft type independent". He reasons that "ince ALL fixed wing aircraft are subject to the same bank angle and G forces in turns, the specific type of aircraft does not matter for the those numbers posted in the chart". He goes on to claim "variable wing geometry or a morphed wing using futuristic memory shape alloy metals would be subject to the same bank angle and G requirements".

But this is a contradiction. These designs are not fixed wing aircraft- the bank angles and g forces would depend on the specific shape of the wing in time. Pre-911 examples of these designs are capable of the suggested flight paths. Furthermore, technology such as thrust vectoring have been used for decades with similar increases in maneuverability. It is an absurdity to state that no aircraft could fly the proposed flight paths.


But what does the above have to do with Flight 77, which was clearly not a variable geometry aircraft?

And also: "Fixed wing" is a specific term that contrasts with aircraft such as helicopters. I do not believe that variable geometry aircraft are excluded from the "fixed wing" classification.
 
I think it's pretty important to note that the G forces are (as far as I understand) aircraft independent in the same flight path. G forces are the result of radial acceleration and result from simple vector calculations.

I have done these calculations for an extremely optimistic flight path and they still require a quite significant bank while also not agreeing with several eyewitness accounts.

This is the approach I used (roughly, it's a section of a large radius circular turn)


This is the resulting bank angle required. This is simply the aircraft rolling to offset the radial acceleration and acceleration due to gravity. In reality the plane at the Pentagon will have rolled more as the turn was not level.
bankangle664gk0.png
 
Saw this earlier....

CIT's latest recruit-cum-stalking horse?

As always, let's just get bogged down in the math, as it allows them to keep their crud on page one.

Tell ya what LoneBedouin.... Can we cut through the four pages of ad homs and red herrings and go immediately to the part where you Show Us Your Flight Path and Calculations?
 
Wait, are those colored lines supposed to be CIT's theory?

How the hell can a plane do that at high speeds?
 
Tell ya what LoneBedouin.... Can we cut through the four pages of ad homs and red herrings and go immediately to the part where you Show Us Your Flight Path and Calculations?
I predict that Balsamo's latest message boy will not be providing a flight path nor calculations, not in this thread, not ever.

Unfortunately, stating the obvious will not get me the $1 million.
 
Wait, are those colored lines supposed to be CIT's theory?

How the hell can a plane do that at high speeds?
Maybe the latest theory is that the Goodyear blimp hit the Pentagon. Painted to look like an American Airlines jet, of course.
 
and again, the "flight paths" do not even account for the ENTIRE path INTO the pentagon.

Sorry, but until they can plot the ENTIRE path, INCLUDING how it entered and went through the pentagon, ANY flight path they come with will be ignored.
 
Enigma said:
Psychics have followings for the same reasons you use in your post. They count the hits and discard the misses. Seems you inadvertently put CIT in the same class as Sylvia Browne...
But if all of the witnesses are 'counts' except one tiny detail from one of the witnesses, then I would consider the accuracy of the detail rather than construct my entire argument around it in order to ignore inconvenient evidence. Btw, i did not necessarily "discard the miss", as you put it- read the second part of my post.
Mr. Skinny said:
I think you forgot one possibility: The aircraft never flew north of the Citgo station.
You see, I never considered that since we have multiple NOC witnesses and only one parallel to the annex witness. Since Morin agreed in all other respects with the NOC witnesses and, in fact, could only have seen what he saw if the NOC was correct, it seemed reasonable that the specific parallel claim was an approximation. If you disagree, perhaps you'd like to give reasons why Morin should be held above the entire body witness testimony.
ElMondoHummus said:
But what does the above have to do with Flight 77, which was clearly not a variable geometry aircraft?

And also: "Fixed wing" is a specific term that contrasts with aircraft such as helicopters. I do not believe that variable geometry aircraft are excluded from the "fixed wing" classification.
That is another error in Reheat's paper. Cit does not claim that the plane was flight 77, they claim it was a 'decoy jet'. Conflating these two is one of the more glaring errors in the paper.
Ok, well I used "fixed wing" to refer to aircraft that actually have fixed wings- as the name suggests, variable geometry wings are variable in shape.
e^n said:
I have done these calculations for an extremely optimistic flight path and they still require a quite significant bank while also not agreeing with several eyewitness accounts.
The problems with your flight path seem to be the steep angle coming in over Columbia. I think even Reheat's flightpath was parallel to Columbia and didn't intersect it. Also, why the curve after flying over the Pentagon? If you take these to things into consideration the flightpath is practically straight.
MarkyX said:
Wait, are those colored lines supposed to be CIT's theory?

How the hell can a plane do that at high speeds?
Exactly.
 
It appears that the OP missed the most obvious point:

the CIT are incompetent frauds.

I put the CIT (and by extension, its fan boys over at the new Loose Change board) in the same catagory as the no-planers, except that CIT appear to be more persistent (and 50 times more obnoxious)
 
But if all of the witnesses are 'counts' except one tiny detail from one of the witnesses, then I would consider the accuracy of the detail rather than construct my entire argument around it in order to ignore inconvenient evidence. Btw, i did not necessarily "discard the miss", as you put it- read the second part of my post.
You apparently think my view is as distorted from reality as your view is. The misses are all the witnesses that saw impact (including CIT's deluded and confused coached "witnesses") plus the much more numerous witness to a non-NOC flight path. Fact is you proved CIT belongs in the sewer along with Sylvia Browne et al.
 
Evidence?

Wow, seriously??

Where to start? Oh yeah: every one of their witnesses said that the plane hit the Pentagon.

This is why these frauds are the leading laughingstocks in the Twoof movement today.

Put aside their impossible flight path, their ridiculous editing and coaching of their own witnesses, the fact that they ignore all evidence that does not support their idiotic theory, and their incredibly loathsome personalities, what makes them THE JOKE of the Twoof movement is that ALL OF THEIR WITNESSES SAY THE PLANE HIT THE PENTAGON.
 
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It appears that the OP missed the most obvious point:

the CIT are incompetent frauds.

I put the CIT (and by extension, its fan boys over at the new Loose Change board) in the same catagory as the no-planers, except that CIT appear to be more persistent (and 50 times more obnoxious)

Evidence?

100% of the physical evidence and the vast majority of eyewitness accounts prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was Flight 77 that crashed into the Pentagon. That CIT and pfft pursue eyewitness accounts to the contrary and refuse to accept the conclusive evidence indicates a cult-like devotion to their clearly warped agenda.
 
Engima said:
You apparently think my view is as distorted from reality as your view is. The misses are all the witnesses that saw impact (including CIT's deluded and confused coached "witnesses") plus the much more numerous witness to a non-NOC flight path. Fact is you proved CIT belongs in the sewer along with Sylvia Browne et al.
So your 'misses' are the impact witnesses? This has no bearing on my criticism of Reheat's paper, which explicitly deals with the NOC flightpath. If you would like to start a separate thread about the impact witnesses, I would be glad to respond to you there.
 
So your 'misses' are the impact witnesses? This has no bearing on my criticism of Reheat's paper, which explicitly deals with the NOC flightpath. If you would like to start a separate thread about the impact witnesses, I would be glad to respond to you there.
Don't care to start a new thread but thanks for admitting CIT belongs in the same category as Sylvia Browne et al.
 

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