IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 31st July 2008, 06:22 PM   #1
Thunder
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,918
If the Holocaust didn't happen...

then where are all the missing Jews?

best estimates put the number of world Jews before WW2 at between 16 and 18 million. After WW2, the number is between 11 and 13 million.

So where are the missing 3 to 7 million Jews?
Thunder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2008, 07:24 PM   #2
Corsair 115
Penultimate Amazing
 
Corsair 115's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 14,519
I'm sure MaGZ will be along shortly to tell you that either a) there are no missing Jews, or b) good riddance that they're gone (but it still wasn't a deliberate extermination).
__________________
"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve
to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and
one which we intend to win."
Corsair 115 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st July 2008, 07:29 PM   #3
Athyrio
Hipster Doofus
 
Athyrio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Nutsack, FL
Posts: 2,276
Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
then where are all the missing Jews?

best estimates put the number of world Jews before WW2 at between 16 and 18 million. After WW2, the number is between 11 and 13 million.

So where are the missing 3 to 7 million Jews?

They just changed their names to Smith and Jones to avoid any further hassles.
__________________
Knowledge is good.... Emil Faber
Athyrio is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st August 2008, 06:09 AM   #4
Trojan_Jockey
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 276
They are hiding obviously. The lengths these Jews will go to just to make the Nazis look bad is unbelievable.
Trojan_Jockey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st August 2008, 06:30 AM   #5
~enigma~
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,923
If the holocaust didn't happen then all those neo-nazi's are morons for idolizing a failure named hitler. If it did happen (and it did), they are morons for being anti-semitic trash.
~enigma~ is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st August 2008, 06:34 AM   #6
applecorped
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 20,145
They're in Miami.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st August 2008, 06:48 AM   #7
albie
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 124
Perhaps they are Anne Franking it. Hiding in secret attics...from Loose Change.

Or should I say the storm truthers?

Last edited by albie; 1st August 2008 at 07:11 AM.
albie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2008, 07:08 PM   #8
moon1969
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,288
They went to Israel? No really that is what the holocaust deniers are claiming. They went to Israel and change their identity. I got to say that is the most stupidest thing I have ever heard. Holocaust deniers are not smart people.
moon1969 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2008, 07:45 PM   #9
Oliver
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oliver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,396
Originally Posted by moon1969 View Post
They went to Israel? No really that is what the holocaust deniers are claiming. They went to Israel and change their identity. I got to say that is the most stupidest thing I have ever heard. Holocaust deniers are not smart people.

While the stupidest thing in human history still is intelligent design, I have to point out that Holocaust-Deniers also deny German answers concerning the topic, so there might be an augmentation to the term "stupidity", even if I don't know what it is called...
Oliver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2008, 08:07 PM   #10
~enigma~
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,923
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
While the stupidest thing in human history still is intelligent design, I have to point out that Holocaust-Deniers also deny German answers concerning the topic, so there might be an augmentation to the term "stupidity", even if I don't know what it is called...
We can only hope that the holocaust deniers who idolize hitler for being unable to pull off the holocaust continue to follow in ALL of his footsteps.
~enigma~ is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2008, 08:10 PM   #11
Oliver
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oliver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,396
Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
We can only hope that the holocaust deniers who idolize hitler for being unable to pull off the holocaust continue to follow in ALL of his footsteps.

... including the "Holocaust that didn't happen yet"?
Oliver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2008, 08:13 PM   #12
Thunder
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,918
Enigma- i saw the enigma machine in london. very cool.

and yes, holocaust deniers are dumb..and lazy.
Thunder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2008, 08:26 PM   #13
~enigma~
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,923
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
... including the "Holocaust that didn't happen yet"?
Huh...where did I say that?
~enigma~ is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2008, 08:36 PM   #14
Oliver
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oliver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,396
Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
Enigma- i saw the enigma machine in london. very cool.

and yes, holocaust deniers are dumb..and lazy.

Which is an answer that will not satisfy them at all. But what could you do anyway since they even refuse the footage the Russians, British and American Cameramen took?
Oliver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2008, 08:37 PM   #15
Oliver
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oliver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,396
Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
Huh...where did I say that?

You said that:

"We can only hope that the holocaust deniers *snip* continue to follow in ALL of his footsteps."

My question was: ...Including? the "Holocaust that didn't happen yet"?
Oliver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2008, 08:38 PM   #16
~enigma~
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,923
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Which is an answer that will not satisfy them at all. But what could you do anyway since they even refuse the footage the Russians, British and American Cameramen took?
Why do you want to satisfy them? And where did I say the holocaust didn't happen yet????
~enigma~ is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2008, 08:39 PM   #17
Oliver
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oliver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,396
Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
Why do you want to satisfy them? And where did I say the holocaust didn't happen yet????

I was responding to Parky - I don't think that you ever said the Holocaust did not happen...
Oliver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2008, 08:39 PM   #18
~enigma~
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,923
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
You said that:

"We can only hope that the holocaust deniers *snip* continue to follow in ALL of his footsteps."

My question was: ...Including? the "Holocaust that didn't happen yet"?
So you think the holocaust didn't happen yet? Never thought you were anti-semitic...
~enigma~ is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2008, 08:41 PM   #19
~enigma~
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,923
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
I was responding to Parky - I don't think that you ever said the Holocaust did not happen...
Damn right I didn't but you seem to think I implied that...
~enigma~ is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2008, 08:42 PM   #20
Oliver
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oliver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,396
Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
So you think the holocaust didn't happen yet? Never thought you were anti-semitic...

Nope, I know that the Holocaust happened. That's why I did put it in quotation marks: "Holocaust didn't happen".

But you still didn't understand my question to you, did you?
Oliver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2008, 08:44 PM   #21
~enigma~
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,923
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Nope, I know that the Holocaust happened. That's why I did put it in quotation marks: "Holocaust didn't happen".

But you still didn't understand my question to you, did you?
It read more like a statement than a question.
~enigma~ is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2008, 08:51 PM   #22
Oliver
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oliver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,396
Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
It read more like a statement than a question.

I was sincere ... If you hope that the Holocaust Deniers are following all of Hitlers steps, I assumed that you're okay with Holocaust deniers following Hitlers historical steps regarding the Holocaust itself...

In other words, you're okay if Holocaust Deniers are starting a Holocaust themselves? ... Of course not! - That's the contradiction in your statement about "We can only hope that the holocaust deniers who idolize hitler for being unable to pull off the holocaust continue to follow in ALL of his footsteps. ".

Do you see what I'm getting at?
Oliver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2008, 08:54 PM   #23
~enigma~
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,923
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
I was sincere ... If you hope that the Holocaust Deniers are following all of Hitlers steps, I assumed that you're okay with Holocaust deniers following Hitlers historical steps regarding the Holocaust itself...

In other words, you're okay if Holocaust Deniers are starting a Holocaust themselves? ... Of course not! - That's the contradiction in your statement about "We can only hope that the holocaust deniers who idolize hitler for being unable to pull off the holocaust continue to follow in ALL of his footsteps. ".

Do you see what I'm getting at?
Yes...I see that you decided you would like to see the holocaust repeated.

ETA - It appears to have been a mistake to take you off ignore...enjoy your return.

Last edited by ~enigma~; 2nd August 2008 at 08:56 PM.
~enigma~ is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2008, 09:01 PM   #24
Oliver
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oliver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,396
Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
Yes...I see that you decided you would like to see the holocaust repeated.

ETA - It appears to have been a mistake to take you off ignore...enjoy your return.

Argh! ... Never mind.
Oliver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2008, 10:06 PM   #25
Oliver
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oliver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,396
Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
Yes...I see that you decided you would like to see the holocaust repeated.

ETA - It appears to have been a mistake to take you off ignore...enjoy your return.

Can you explain it to him, Parky?
Oliver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2008, 01:49 PM   #26
AZCat
Graduate Poster
 
AZCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,672
Originally Posted by ~enigma~ View Post
Yes...I see that you decided you would like to see the holocaust repeated.

ETA - It appears to have been a mistake to take you off ignore...enjoy your return.
I think there is a simple misunderstanding here.

The holocaust deniers don't think the holocaust happened, so if they were following Hitler's footsteps they would necessarily be repeating something they didn't believe happened the first time (but which the rest of us know did), i.e. a "holocaust that hasn't happened yet".

I hope this helps.

Last edited by AZCat; 3rd August 2008 at 01:50 PM. Reason: added "the first time" for clarification.
AZCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2008, 01:53 PM   #27
Spud1k
+5 Goatee of Pedantry
 
Spud1k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 844
Going back to the OP...

I've heard more than one person try to claim they were all accidentally wiped out by a typhoid/cholera/pinkeye (delete as appropriate) epidemic while they were staying in their happy holiday camps that the Third Reich had graciously provided them with.

If you'll believe that, you'll believe anything.
Spud1k is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2008, 08:19 AM   #28
Alex Libman
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 859
Please avoid framing the question as whether "the Holocaust happened" or not. No noteworthy historical revisionist I've ever heard of is denying that Jews were put in concentration camps - like the Japanese were in America, a major difference being that America wasn't being invaded from both sides and suffering from massive food & fuel shortages and disease epidemics.

The questions that are up for debate are:

(1) Should this debate even be allowed in the first place, or should people questioning or even probing deeper into the history of the Holocaust be jailed as Holocaust Deniers, as they are in some European countries?

(2) What were the intentions of the German government in putting the Jews (and other groups) in concentration camps? Was it their original intention to kill them all? Did they offer them as bargaining chips in negotiations with the Allies?

(3) How many Jews died and of what cause - how many were gassed alive in the camps, and how many died of disease, hunger, Allied bombing, were killed outside the camps, etc. Will the "Hitler killed 6 million Jews" claim stand an unbiased historical analysis?

(4) Did the victorious Allies, especially the Soviet Union, take any liberties with truth in propagandizing the Holocaust to the world? It is known that some initial claims (an eight-digit figure of dead Jews, human soap and leather, etc) had to be withdrawn in light of new evidence, and it was revealed that at least some Soviet and independent Polish massacres were blamed on the Germans. Given the history of "antisemitism" in Russia / Ukraine / Belarus / Poland (ex the Kielce pogrom in 1946), could those revelations be a tip of a much bigger iceberg?

I am a first-generation American immigrant from an Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry, and I have extended family members who've been killed by both the Soviets and the Nazi Germans. I am also an Atheist and an Anarcho-Capitalist, and thus I have no desire to bend the truth to make a particular side look better than the other. Mainstream American history books were written by the same government that conducted the war, and was allied to the Stalinist USSR. Is it possible that history isn't as black-and-white as the government finds it in its interest to present?

Last edited by Alex Libman; 7th August 2008 at 08:34 AM.
Alex Libman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2008, 12:08 PM   #29
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 25,992
Hitler hated Jews. He stripped them of their dignity then tried to exterminate them all. Maybe it does take an Einstein to see that!
Is it only idiots who try to rationalize the Holocaust and make excuses?

Last edited by beachnut; 7th August 2008 at 12:12 PM.
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2008, 12:15 PM   #30
SDC
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,244
Mr/ Ms Libman, you are playing fast and loose with history. (And current events.) First, please list the holocaust researchers who have been imprisoned, and we can look at individual cases. Names, please.

Second, don't blame it on the Poles. Don't even try to go there. Best data are that over 1,000 Jews were killed after the end of the war by Poles. Most notorious case was, obviously, Kielce, where 40-plus Jews were killed, but otherwise it was ones or twos or threes. Which was bad enough, but any attempt to deflect blame for the holocaust onto the Poles is simply obscene.

As for your #3, above, this is also an obscenity. Evidently, you are the kind of denier who tries to cover up the mass killings. (Many Jews did, indeed, die outside the camps. They were shot, or died in appalling conditions in the ghettos, factories, or anywhere else the Germans and their allies chose to keep them.)

Please describe, as well, the epidemics in Nazi Germany. I'd be glad to learn of them. Actually, the fact is that while the worst killings of the Jews were going on -- 1941-43 -- the Germans were living rather well. They suffered less in the way of rationing than the British, which is probably one reason they lost -- that is, the German government tried to pretend it didn't need to choose "guns or butter" for too long. And they had those handy slaves working in agriculture.

Last edited by SDC; 7th August 2008 at 12:23 PM.
SDC is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2008, 03:35 PM   #31
Nick Terry
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,966
Quote:
(1) Should this debate even be allowed in the first place, or should people questioning or even probing deeper into the history of the Holocaust be jailed as Holocaust Deniers, as they are in some European countries?
You are mistaken. The Logic Police got them.
Nick Terry is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2008, 05:47 PM   #32
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 32,936
Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
Please avoid framing the question as whether "the Holocaust happened" or not. No noteworthy historical revisionist I've ever heard of is denying that Jews were put in concentration camps - like the Japanese were in America, a major difference being that America wasn't being invaded from both sides and suffering from massive food & fuel shortages and disease epidemics.
There are some interesting points in this post, subtle tells that I'm learning to recognise. This first paragraph contains some very interesting ones. First of all, the misrepresentation of the Holocaust as the imprisonment of European Jews by Nazi Germany, is a subtle piece of well-poisoning, when every reputable historian uses the term "holocaust" to refer to the industrialised killing of Jews. Debating the latter while admitting the former is, de facto, framing the question of whether the Holocaust happened or not; redefining the Holocaust to exclude the actual killings is a fascinating piece of intellectual dishonesty. Secondly, the attempt to equate the internment of Japanese Americans with the mass murder of German Jews is in itself another piece of well-poisoning, as there is no reputable historian who would equate the former widespread injustice with the latter monumental atrocity. Thirdly, the final clause, in itself inaccurate as has been pointed out, is a classic neo-Nazi device to present Germany as the innocent victim of the Second World War. It was not, in fact, Germany that was being invaded as the extermination camps were set up; it was the territories that Germany had itself invaded, in a series of unprovoked acts of aggression, in the previous few years. Any study of history, however cursory, will make this plainly obvious. It's only the far right who try to deny it.

Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
The questions that are up for debate are:

(1) Should this debate even be allowed in the first place, or should people questioning or even probing deeper into the history of the Holocaust be jailed as Holocaust Deniers, as they are in some European countries?
Another careful piece of misrepresentation. The crime of holocaust denial, however ill-advised, is based on denial rather than debate. People honestly probing deeper into the history of the Holocaust have found that it still actually happened.

Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
(2) What were the intentions of the German government in putting the Jews (and other groups) in concentration camps? Was it their original intention to kill them all? Did they offer them as bargaining chips in negotiations with the Allies?
The answers are: Extermination, Yes, and No. This is exceptionally well-documented and well-understood.

Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
(3) How many Jews died and of what cause - how many were gassed alive in the camps, and how many died of disease, hunger, Allied bombing, were killed outside the camps, etc. Will the "Hitler killed 6 million Jews" claim stand an unbiased historical analysis?
At this point the post ventures into the territory known to 9-11 debunkers as "JAQ-ing off", where questions are asked that have repeatedly been answered. In particular, the "Hitler killed 6 million Jews" has stood repeated unbiased analysis as a reasonable estimate. As for disease and hunger, the regime that brought this about in a time of national prosperity due to foreign conquest is hardly innocent. As for exactly where the Nazis carried out their acts of mass murder, this is a relatively minor detail.

Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
(4) Did the victorious Allies, especially the Soviet Union, take any liberties with truth in propagandizing the Holocaust to the world? It is known that some initial claims (an eight-digit figure of dead Jews, human soap and leather, etc) had to be withdrawn in light of new evidence, and it was revealed that at least some Soviet and independent Polish massacres were blamed on the Germans. Given the history of "antisemitism" in Russia / Ukraine / Belarus / Poland (ex the Kielce pogrom in 1946), could those revelations be a tip of a much bigger iceberg?
Next, every fact about the Holocaust is brought into question by a national-level equivalent of the argumentum ad hominem fallacy: because the Soviet Union exaggerated some figures and blamed some of its own more monstrous acts on the Germans, therefore every statement by any of the Western allies must be questioned.

Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
I am a first-generation American immigrant from an Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry, and I have extended family members who've been killed by both the Soviets and the Nazi Germans.
And finally, the standard neo-Nazi "I'm a Jew, so I can't be anti-semitic, therefore I'm not a Holocaust denier" non sequitur.

But there is a fifth question here, Alex. Given that there are uncountably many events in history that are not as black-and-white as they are sometimes depicted, why have you chosen to question one of the best documented, most thoroughly researched and understood events in history to question in this way; and why, in raising points to question, are you only interested in the possibility that the Nazis may have been less, and never that they may have been more, culpable than conventional understanding would indicate? That, I think, is the real neo-Nazi tell; you and your ilk are always ready to exonerate Hitler, and never prepared even to raise the question of whether he and his regime may have been guilty of even more, as yet undiscovered, crimes.

But thank you for posting this. I now know what you are.

Dave
__________________
There is truth and there are lies.

- President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021

Last edited by Dave Rogers; 7th August 2008 at 05:49 PM.
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2008, 05:59 PM   #33
gtc
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,110
Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
(2) What were the intentions of the German government in putting the Jews (and other groups) in concentration camps? Was it their original intention to kill them all? Did they offer them as bargaining chips in negotiations with the Allies?
Why is that any better than the alternative? If a bankrobber is threatening to kill hostages and the hostages die (either accidentally or on purpose); is it somehow better if the bankrobber was hoping the authorities would let him flee with the loot?
gtc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2008, 06:41 PM   #34
AZCat
Graduate Poster
 
AZCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,672
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
There are some interesting points in this post, subtle tells that I'm learning to recognise.

<snipped wonderful, but lengthy post>

But thank you for posting this. I now know what you are.

Dave
Thank you for an informative and thorough examination of that post specifically, and holocaust-denier tactics in general.
AZCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2008, 07:16 PM   #35
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
 
gumboot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 25,327
What I find odd about holocaust deniers is primarily that they seem obsessed over details that don't matter at all.

It doesn't really matter if 6 million Jews were killed in Concentration Camps with Gas, or if only 3 million were, and another 2 million were machine-gunned in their homes while a further 1 million died of disease and starvation due to the harsh conditions imposed on them by Germany.

The bottom line - the undeniable fact - is that the Nazi regime carried out a systematic act of genocide against the Jewish people of Europe, and that as a result millions upon millions of Jews - accepted at a round figure of 6 million - perhaps actually more, perhaps actually less - lost their lives.
__________________

O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde
keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.


A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.
gumboot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2008, 09:56 PM   #36
Brian-M
Daydreamer
 
Brian-M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,044
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
I was sincere ... If you hope that the Holocaust Deniers are following all of Hitlers steps, I assumed that you're okay with Holocaust deniers following Hitlers historical steps regarding the Holocaust itself...

In other words, you're okay if Holocaust Deniers are starting a Holocaust themselves? ... Of course not! - That's the contradiction in your statement about "We can only hope that the holocaust deniers who idolize hitler for being unable to pull off the holocaust continue to follow in ALL of his footsteps. ".

Do you see what I'm getting at?
Arrrgh! This is just too stupid. Are both you and Enigma deliberately misunderstanding each-other?

By "follow in ALL of his footsteps" I'm fairly sure he was referring to Hitler's suicide.
Brian-M is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2008, 10:02 PM   #37
Pardalis
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 25,817
Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
Is it possible that history isn't as black-and-white as the government finds it in its interest to present?
Which government are you talking about, exactly?
Pardalis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2008, 11:00 PM   #38
DC
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 23,064
what i find odd is that everyone talks about the jews that got killed in the holocaust, and the non jews that got killed in the holocaust seem to be forgotten.

i dont know how many ppl exactly got killed by the holocaust, or in what exact way they got killed, but i think to know that millions off innocent humans got killed, including woman and children. and not only jews.
DC is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2008, 11:11 PM   #39
Metullus
Forum ¾-Wit Pro Tem
 
Metullus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,168
Originally Posted by Dictator Cheney View Post
what i find odd is that everyone talks about the jews that got killed in the holocaust, and the non jews that got killed in the holocaust seem to be forgotten.

i dont know how many ppl exactly got killed by the holocaust, or in what exact way they got killed, but i think to know that millions off innocent humans got killed, including woman and children. and not only jews.
Are you actually distinguishing between "innocent humans" and jews?
__________________
I have met Tim at TAM. He is of sufficient height to piss on your leg. - Doubt 10/7/2005 - I'll miss Tim.

Aristotle taught that the brain exists merely to cool the blood and is not involved in the process of thinking. This is true only of certain persons. - Will Cuppy
Metullus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2008, 11:14 PM   #40
DC
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 23,064
Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
Are you actually distinguishing between "innocent humans" and jews?
i think most jews was and are innocent humans. i dont know why we only talk about the killed jews, and forget the non jews that also died in the holocaust.
DC is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:55 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.