Russia invades Georgia

andyandy

anthropomorphic ape
andyandy
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Or at least a separatist region/country that Georgia regards as part of it. This was in response to a Georgian offensive a few hours earlier.

Georgia today called on the US to step in after Russian tanks rolled across the border to aid separatists in the breakaway region of South Ossetia.

The Georgian president, Mikhail Saakashvili, said it was in US interests to help his "freedom-loving" nation.

In an interview with CNN, he said: "Russia is fighting a war with us in our own territory.

"It's not about Georgia any more. It's about America, its values. We are a freedom-loving nation that is right now under attack."

His plea came during a three-hour ceasefire in heavy bombardment of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, by Georgian forces.

At least 10 Russian peacekeepers have been killed and 30 injured. Fifteen civilians have died.

Russian forces invaded the regional capital, Tskhinvali, and bombed a military airbase outside the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, after the president, Dmitry Medvedev, said it was his duty to punish those responsible for Russian deaths.

Earlier, Saakashvili said 150 Russian tanks and armoured vehicles had entered the region and that his forces had shot down two Russian planes over Georgian territory.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/08/georgia.russia2

I wonder how the situation will play out. Given that Georgia has quite close ties with both NATO and the US, it could have the potential to escalate, but I can't see anyone really wanting to take on Russia.
 
invading other ppls countrys seem to be a trend atm.
 
Upon crossing the border into Georgia and discovering metro Atlanta's rush-hour traffic, the Russian commander declared "**** this, let's go home."
 
Georgia has no Article V protection from NATO.

I say "let 'em play" for the nonce.

Gavrillo Princip for fifty, Alex. :p
Oliver said:
What did you expect? Another superpower fighting it's war on terror. Shouldn't the west just join them? :rolleyes:
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Oliver, that's one way for Putin to spin this thing. One of your more imaginative and useful posts of late. :)
The Georgian president, Mikhail Saakashvili, said it was in US interests to help his "freedom-loving" nation.

In an interview with CNN, he said: "Russia is fighting a war with us in our own territory.

"It's not about Georgia any more. It's about America, its values. We are a freedom-loving nation that is right now under attack."
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My response to that is WACOS: What A Crock Of Spit

In his defense, the US is asking for this kind of appeal ever since its bombing of Serbia, as part of the NATO operation, in 1999.

DR
 
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andyandy said:
Or at least a separatist region/country that Georgia regards as part of it. This was in response to a Georgian offensive a few hours earlier.
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Then why the misleading thread title? It should read "Georgia bombs South-Ossetia, Russia reacts".

A few weeks ago, after Rice and Steinmeier visited the country, Soros-Puppet Saakashvili made the rather strange statement that "the fate of the new world order will be decided in Georgia" (as quoted by the german service of RIA Novosti). I wonder what that was supposed to mean?
 
Childlike Empress said:
"the fate of the new world order will be decided in Georgia" (as quoted by the german service of RIA Novosti). I wonder what that was supposed to mean?
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It means that if the Georgia Bulldogs don't win the NCAA football championship, it's curtains for the free world.

Please donate by purchasing a Bulldogs fan item here: http://georgiadogs.teamfanshop.com/?KEY=&DB_OEM_ID=8800&DB_LANG=&IN_SUBSCRIBER_CONTENT=

A sample of what you can do to help save the free world. Please, in the name of world peace, buy one of these:

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DR

(Disclaimer: I have bloody eff all to do with the University of Georgia, and could give a flying fruitbat how they do in the NCAA Football season about to start.)
 
Childlike Empress said:
A few weeks ago, after Rice and Steinmeier visited the country, Soros-Puppet Saakashvili made the rather strange statement that "the fate of the new world order will be decided in Georgia" (as quoted by the german service of RIA Novosti). I wonder what that was supposed to mean?
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It means that he was worried about Russia trying to forcibly reconstitute the Soviet Bloc, but don't let reason temper your paranoia about the imaginary New World Order you and the other truthers fear so much.
 
Darth Rotor said:
My response to that is WACOS: What A Crock Of Spit

In his defense, the US is asking for this kind of appeal ever since its bombing of Serbia, as part of the NATO operation, in 1999.

DR
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Except russia is basicaly playing nato in this case. Problem is if we object to russia's actions beyond the carefuly worded appeals to calm on all side they will point to Kosovo.
 
WildCat said:
It means that he was worried about Russia trying to forcibly reconstitute the Soviet Bloc, but don't let reason temper your paranoia about the imaginary New World Order you and the other truthers fear so much.
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Can I look at this as a confirmation she's a tardroofer? ;)
 
This very illuminating Feb. article clarifies the "new world order" business just mentioned - hey an actually valid use of the term too:

Russian President Vladimir Putin charges that Western support for the newly declared state, torn from Serbia this week, is "immoral and illegal" behavior that will provoke a global storm of separatism and explode the international order.

...

"The Kosovo situation shows us with complete clarity that the geopolitical interests of Russia and the West are in fundamental conflict," says Alexander Dugin, head of the International Eurasian Movement, an influential grouping of nationalist intellectuals, businessmen, and policymakers. "Russia should regard this as an opportunity to enlarge its own zone of influence," by recognizing statelets like Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Moreover, he adds, "this will be a signal for Russian minorities in eastern Ukraine and other places to organize for their own separation.... [Western behavior has shown us] that geopolitical interests now prevail. Any talk of morality is just a disguise."

Russia may be the world's ultimate glass house, with 20 autonomous ethnic republics. One, Chechnya, is still in ruins after its independence bid was put down by Moscow in two brutal wars.
Experts say this vulnerability has informed Russia's past insistence on a Kosovo compromise. Now that Kosovo has officially broken away, some still urge caution. "This is a real Pandora's box, and there's no reason to be happy it's been opened," says Gennady Chufrin, vice rector of the official Institute of World Economy and International Relations in Moscow. "If we start recognizing separatist entities, there will be no end to it. The international order, as we have known it, faces collapse."



...
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http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0220/p06s01-woeu.html?page=2
 
Yes like the president Saakashvili said WAKE UP. Russians are trying to do the same thing to Estonia and Ukraine. If NATO doesn"t help Georgia like USA didn"t help Finland in the Winter War then there is no choice expect the people in the former Soviet Union and Finland to help Georgia. Everybody knew that Putin and his KGB elite are trying to bring back the Soviet Union withouth communism. Too bad USA will not help like it didn"t help in the WW.
 
Of course USA will not help. Putin and Bush are best friends. :D Just like Josef Stalin and Roosevelt were best friends in the WW2.
 
Moon1969, what you just said is nonsense. Bush and Saakashvili are very good friends. Remember Georgia supported the war in Iraq, it's (was?) part of the coalition of the willing.
 
geni said:
Except russia is basicaly playing nato in this case. Problem is if we object to russia's actions beyond the carefuly worded appeals to calm on all side they will point to Kosovo.
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Agreed, which is something a bit more nuanced than what W seems to be able to handle. ;)

For those reading, a bit of context from the last part of one of the links is handy:
South Ossetia declared independence in the early 1990s after the disintegration of the Soviet Union. Since then there were skirmishes between the ethnic South Ossetians and Georgians who live all over the region. Most of South Ossetia's 70,000 inhabitants have meanwhile received a Russian passport. In 2004 at the beginning of his term President Saakashvili swore that he would restore Georgia's authority over the separatist regions of Adzharia, South Ossetia and Abkhazia. So far only Adzharia has been brought back into the fold.
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Anyone remember Milosevic commenting that "where there are Serbs, there is Serbia" during the Bosnia fracas? Saakashvili is playing the same card, it seems.

DR
 
moon1969 said:
Yes like the president Saakashvili said WAKE UP. Russians are trying to do the same thing to Estonia and Ukraine. If NATO doesn"t help Georgia like USA didn"t help Finland in the Winter War then there is no choice expect the people in the former Soviet Union and Finland to help Georgia. Everybody knew that Putin and his KGB elite are trying to bring back the Soviet Union withouth communism. Too bad USA will not help like it didn"t help in the WW.
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Would you care to look at a map? Here is a map of Europe.
003 Europe MAP.jpg

If NATO as a whole won't get involved, there is no earthly reason for the US to get involved. This is, maybe, a European collective security issue. Maybe it isn't even that.
 
Pardalis said:
Moon1969, what you just said is nonsense. Bush and Saakashvili are very good friends. Remember Georgia supported the war in Iraq, it's (was?) part of the coalition of the willing.
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Perhaps but I would be mildly surprised if Bush reciprocated with so much as anti-tank weapons for the Georgians to use.

If the Russians go no further than S Ossetia I think we can safely assume that this area will get a chance to secede as did Kosovo and maps will get redrawn.
 
SOmething tells me that Childlike Empress would LOVE to see the Soviet Union reborn and the Warsaw Pact reestablished.
 
dudalb said:
SOmething tells me that Childlike Empress would LOVE to see the Soviet Union reborn and the Warsaw Pact reestablished.
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With Poland, the baltic States, Hungary, Czechs, Slovaks, Romania, and Bulgaria now under NATO Article V protection, not gonna happen without destroying it.

Don't think that's gonna happen.

Also, the Russians don't want to queer the deal on their energy exports to Europe.

DR
 
RIA Novosti said:
Over 1,000 civilians have been killed as the result of an attack by Georgia on the capital of its breakaway republic of South Ossetia, the North Ossetian nationalities minister said Friday. [...]

The statement also said that most of the city had been devastated by the Georgian military attack, which left the hospital destroyed and the republic's university on fire.

source
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:(
 
I'd expect that George Bush would want to help- he believes the country is named after him, right?
 
geni said:
Not really Georgia may not last long enough. This is turning into a real ground war fast.
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But politically, don't you think Bush has to take a stand for Georgia, since it's one of his few allies he gathered in the Iraq invasion?
 
Pardalis said:
But politically, don't you think Bush has to take a stand for Georgia, since it's one of his few allies he gathered in the Iraq invasion?
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So Georgia bombs the capital of South-Ossetia, killing at least 1000 civilians (20 minutes ago german radio said 1400 are dead) and you want Dubya to help them because of "political reasons"? You are a very disturbed individual, Pardalis.

Please be civil and attack the argument. Thank you.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LibraryLady
 
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Childlike Empress said:
So Georgia bombs the capital of South-Ossetia, killing at least 1000 civilians (20 minutes ago german radio said 1400 are dead) and you want Dubya to help them? You are a very disturbed individual, Pardalis.
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Reported for personal attack.

I didn't say I wanted Bush to help Georgia, I was merely pointing out what sticky situation this puts him in.
 
As the resident anarcho-capitalist nut-job, I've gotta advocate the impossible scenario of complete secession and formation of a Free Ossetia.

It's not gonna happen, obviously, and that's not what the South Ossetians want - they've probably been bribed by Russia (the GDP-per-capita of which is currently three times that of Georgia, and thanks to its natural resources will probably remain so for the near future). Another reason it won't happen is because South Ossetia is a tiny war-torn patch of land with population of 70,000 and GDP of just $15 million - Russia probably spent 10x as much on bombs there already. If given sovereignty, only 1-2 semi-sovereign tiny island micro-nations could challenge it's status as the world's smallest economy. For comparison, North Ossetia has roughly 500,000 Ossetians and 200,000 persons of other nationalities.
 
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Indeed it would have probably been cheaper for Russia to buy S Ossetis from Georgia than take this route - although I appreciate that the Georgians probably wouldn't sell to the Russians at any price.
 
Nogbad said:
Indeed it would have probably been cheaper for Russia to buy S Ossetis from Georgia than take this route - although I appreciate that the Georgians probably wouldn't sell to the Russians at any price.
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That would be like Scotland selling the Lowlands to England. Ain't gonna happen, particularly in a small country like Georgia.

(Okay, maybe that's a bad examples, since we all remember the following dialogue:
"What's in it fer me?"
"Enough cash to buy the Outer Hebrides."
"Five pounds, eight shillings? That's a mighty temptin' offer!")
 
It's strange the same source that said that 1,000 Ossetians died are talking about 1,000 people who have been evacuated.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20080805/115765615.html

The UN says the same thing:

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=27639&Cr=Georgia&Cr1=
Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon yesterday voiced serious concern about the mounting violence in South Ossetia, where nearly two dozen people have reportedly been wounded or killed in recent clashes and over 1,000 have been uprooted in the past few days.
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No mention of a thousand killed.

Could this be a mix-up?
 
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It could get ugly. In a stand up battle no contest...Russia has better weapons and more of them....but if goes guerilla it could get very,very,costly for Russia.
 
Cleon said:
Possibly. It's more likely that nobody knows what the **** is going on or how many people have been killed, and right now everything's pure guesswork at best.
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Doesn't the american media have correspondants in Tskhinvali? Maybe the numbers are not THAT high but what german TV showed was a quite destroyed city with people hiding in (improvised) bunkers.
 
Childlike Empress said:
So Georgia bombs the capital of South-Ossetia, killing at least 1000 civilians (20 minutes ago german radio said 1400 are dead) and you want Dubya to help them because of "political reasons"? You are a very disturbed individual, Pardalis.
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And you support people like Putin (de facto dictator of Russia) and Chavez just because they are Anti Bush. Talk about disturbed.
 
Cleon said:
"Turning into?"

It's an invasion - what else would you call it other than a "real ground war?" The LARP version of Risk?
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I hadn't realised the Georgians had avanced quite as far as they had so I was expecting the russian advance would be met with a withdrawal to defenceable positions which happened to align with the de-facto boarder.
 
Alex Libman said:
As the resident anarcho-capitalist nut-job, I've gotta advocate the impossible scenario of complete secession and formation of a Free Ossetia.
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:) Thanks for giving a good laugh with your apt analysis.

I tried to read up a couple of wiki pages where this conflict comes from and I'm left with a couple of questions:
  • has Ossetia always been divided into a northern part belonging to Russia and a southern part belonging to Georgia? Or is this a creation stemming from the 1920-1922 civil war?
  • do the South Ossetians want independence as South Ossetia, have independence in a united Ossetia, or be part of Russia?
  • how come most South Ossetians now have Russian passports?
  • how come the enmity between South Ossetians and Georgians? Wiki says:
    The tensions in the region began to rise amid the rising nationalism among both Georgians and Ossetians in 1989. Prior to this, the two communities of the South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast of Georgian SSR had been living in peace with each other except for the 1918-1920 events. Both ethnicities have had a high level of interaction and high rates of intermarriages.
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    which suggests it comes out of the blue, contrary to the Yugoslav case where enmities always existed but were suppressed.

BTW, Darth, your cynicism is well appreciated.
 
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