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#1 |
Scholar
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 61
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British Chiropractic Association v Simon Singh
It was reported this morning that the British Chiropractic Association is suing Simon Singh, the well known science writer, about an article in The Guardian.
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#2 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
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Link to story in the Telegraph:
Doctors take Simon Singh to court
Quote:
I notice that the Torygraph article is carefully neutral about whether chiropractic actually works. The nearest to a comment on its merits it manages is that it is "a widely accepted treatment" for back pain. |
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#3 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Yes, it appears that the British Chiropractic Association is enraged that Simon Singh claimed in a Guardian Comment is Free article back in April that there was no evidence that chiropractic treatment is effective for children with non-musculoskeletal conditions. Full background to the story:
Quote:
Although I don’t have the original article, I’ve managed to cobble together the following excerpts from it. It wasn’t a long article, so there won’t be a great amount of text missing from between the paragraphs:
Quote:
There’s also this from Jack of Kent which I’ve lifted from the UK Skeptics forum:
Quote:
The story is also being covered by these blogs: British chiropractors join the legal intimidation party http://holfordwatch.info/2008/08/16/...idation-party/ Chiropractors try to silence Simon Singh http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2008...nce-simon.html Chiropractors sue Simon Singh – prefer legal action to evidence http://gimpyblog.wordpress.com/2008/...n-to-evidence/ And this is the original JREF thread which prompted this thread: NZ Chiropractors vs NZ Medical Journal http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=120817 Well worth a read. |
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#4 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Perhaps also relevant here is this story from Friday's Guardian: Labour warned over limits to free expression
Quote:
Quote:
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#5 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 53,399
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Truth is a pretty good defence. All power to Simon Singh's arm.
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#6 |
Thinker
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 227
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Yeah, probably -it tends to attach to anything that is in the public interest IIRC.
I can't see anything in the original article which wouldn't be covered by justification(truth) or fair comment. The former may be harder to prove, but it certainly seems to tick all the boxes for the latter anyway - it's opinion based on true fact, malice isn't the motivating factor, and it's unquestionably in the public interest. I genuinely can't see how they hope to win this, or even to come out of it looking good. I find the decision to issue a writ absolutely mystifying TBH. Going for Singh directly, rather than issuing against the Guardian is a rather telling act though. |
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#7 |
Scholar
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 61
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I understand that the statement which the BCA claims to be defamatory is within the text quoted by Blue Wode.
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Last edited by Jack of Kent; 17th August 2008 at 03:59 AM. Reason: Deletion of repeated text which Blue Wode had already quoted |
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#8 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,150
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I heard about this a couple of weeks back but was sworn to secrecy. I think it will be a cause celebre, and will open a debate about evidence which the BCA thought it had won. It's not pleasant for Simon but he is very positive and well supported.
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#9 |
Mostly harmless
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#10 |
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No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little. Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797) Blog - Majikthyse |
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#11 |
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#12 |
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The original article in its entirety (presumably it's OK to post it on a US forum):
Quote:
(With thanks to the person who posted the link in the comments section of the Quackometer's blog post) ETA. Not sure if the long comments section will load properly. |
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#13 |
Graduate Poster
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The text has now been replicated over at Gimpy's blog and includes references for Simon Singh's claims:
http://gimpyblog.wordpress.com/2008/...chiropractors/ |
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#14 |
New Blood
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8
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Thanks. I can't see how the BCA can claim that Singh misrepresents the evidence. Everyone of his claims seems to be backed up by peer-reviewed evidence or documents from the BCA website. Maybe they will argue that his interpretation of the evidence is wrong, but being wrong isn't the same as libel which is knowingly making a false claim.
Anyway, Singh is far ruder about chiropractors in his 'Trick or Treatment' book, so why haven't they sued over that? I think the personal revenge theory is credible at this stage. |
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#15 |
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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Some Legal Pointers
As the claimant (new English legal term for "plaintiff") is the British Chiropractic Association, one must focus on the direct statement made about them.
The claim appears to be that of libel. In English law this usually means that the statement lowers the reputation of the claimant. So it appears to me that the BCA must show that the statement made directly about them lowers their reputation. Generally speaking, there are three defences to a libel suit: 1. The statement was made with privilege 2. The statement was a fair comment 3. The statement was one of fact which can be justified. As an English media and communications lawyer, I am watching this case with keen interest. |
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#16 |
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#17 |
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#18 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
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If there is anyone posting here who is in contact with Dr Singh (NoAm usage in calling someone with a PhD, a Doctor), can you see if there is a way of supporting him either financially or morally in this case?
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#19 |
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#20 |
Thinker
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 227
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Yeah, possibly - insofar as they may have said "take it down or we'll sue you". But given the article was published in their paper version and I don't think they've formally retracted/apologised for it, you'd really expect them to go for the publishers as well if they felt libelled. Either their reputation has been lowered or it hasn't, IYSWIM. Removal of an offending article instead of court proceedings might be applicable in cases of innocent dissemination, but that doesn't apply here.
It also makes me wonder how strong they actually think their case is. As it stands, to me it just smacks either of a vendetta or done in the hope Singh will fold due to the personal nature of the threat. Edit: Or, basically, what Asolepius and Jack of Kent said above. That'll teach me to leave replies half written whilst I pop out. |
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#21 |
Thinker
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 227
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Cool - out of interest, what's your take on the logic behind this? Do you think they've got a case at all? I can't see they've a leg to stand on, personally, but this sounds like more your area than mine.
And what do you reckon are the chances this will actually make it to court? |
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#22 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,918
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It is good to see that there will finally be some kind of contest with profound results. It is sad that it will be a legal contest in which the best lawyers and expert witnesses can usually win. Unfortunately, only the legal pathway has the profound results.
Dr. Singh has my support and best wishes. |
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#23 |
Scholar
Join Date: Aug 2008
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I am sure they will say that not having a leg to stand on can be cured by skeletal massage! Everything else seems amenable to chiropractic...
The strength of a legal case is always difficult to assess from a newspaper report. If the BCA have external lawyers, one would presume that the claim form has been issued means that they think the case has some merits. English libel law also favours the claimant. Once it has been established that the comment is defamatory (ie lowers the reputation of the claimant), it is for the defendant to show that a defence applies. This is expensive and complex. It is also very unfair. That is why charlatans and crooks often use English libel laws - Robert Maxwell, Jeffrey Archer, David Irving, Jonathan Aitken, etc. As for whether this would go to court, from the newspaper report, it is really difficult to say. It seems a claim form has been issued. The next stage would be for a Defence to be served. It would appear this has not happened yet. Once the parties set out their respective cases, then the case will either be withdrawn, settled, or go to court. However, few cases of any kind get to court - only about 1% of claim forms lead to trial dates. One thing in English litigation is very different from US litigation. Over here, the loser has to pay both sides' legal costs. If this case goes to court then there will be a highly expensive legal bill for either Dr Singh or the BCA. I will keep this thread updated with developments - and also on my own blog jackofkent DOT blogspot DOTcom (as a Newbie here, I can't embed the link!). |
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#24 |
Graduate Poster
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Here you are: http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/ And here's another good blog post from ‘A Day At The Pharmacy’ which has decided to carry the Beware The Spinal Trap article in full: http://www.mrhunnybun.com/2008/08/br...ion-suing.html |
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#25 |
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I am at the same time animated and worried by this development. Animated because, at last there will be public scrutiny of chiropractic, which has become embedded in the culture and widely accepted as main stream medicine - which it isn't. I am worried by what Jack says; the courts should be the place to test evidence, but when it comes to science they are not. Scientific evidence is routinely abused by lawyers, especially on matters of probability. Present company excepted of course Jack.
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#26 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,290
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[quote=Rocko;3953335]As it stands, to me it just smacks either of a vendetta or done in the hope Singh will fold due to the personal nature of the threat.
QUOTE] If the BCA or their lawyers are not very confident of a win, going after Singh rather than the newspaper has the advantage that if they lost, they wouldn't have a major media outlet which has been forced to prove that chiropractic practice is mostly woo. If it doesn't go to court, I hope the reasons and any payments which are given in settlement are disclosed. |
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#27 |
Mostly harmless
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#28 |
Scholar
Join Date: Aug 2008
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None taken! Any lawyer with the slightest grasp of science is off making a fortune in patent litigation! I have long argued that (apart from in patent litigation) the Court room, with all the complex and counter-intuitive rules of evidence and procedure, is simply not an efficient forum for testing any scientific claims. For example, most of the recent English miscarriages of justice have come down to the Court not properly asssessing scientific evidence. A legal win for rationalism and skepticism is always a nice bonus (the Dover trial comes to mind), but such wins are sadly not inevitable. |
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#29 |
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#30 |
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JREF member, Gambrinus, has now joined the slowly growing band of bloggers who have posted the full text of Simon Singh’s Beware The Spinal Trap article:
Quote:
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#31 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dundee
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I honestly can't see what the case is about - has Singh actually said anything even slightly bordering on untrue?
From the BCA website:
Originally Posted by BCA
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#32 |
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The issue is what constitutes evidence. If you look hard enough you can find a crappy study somewhere in the world that looks positive. The courts are not interested in ethics, they only look at the letter of the law. The BCA's lawyer will argue that one single poor quality study is evidence, and Simon's lawyer will argue (presumably) that that's not how science works. It all depends on whether a judge can see the difference. That of course depends on getting a suitably experienced judge in the first place. A few years ago I took out an action against a business partner and the court scheduled it before a matrimonial judge!
But as Jack said earlier this is not very likely to get to court, although you always have to behave as if it will. |
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#33 |
Scholar
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For those following this case, I have posted a brief guide to English libel law on my blog.
As I am still a Newbie here, I can't embed the link, but this may help: http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2008/...guide-for.html |
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#34 |
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Thanks Darat!
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#35 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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#36 |
Graduate Poster
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I don't think they are pretending to be that stupid. They will have an extremely hard time convincing any judge, however detached from reality, that they have never heard of a DB RCT. But I take your point in another sense. They will argue that their idea of evidence is perfectly reasonable so they are not `knowingly' promoting ineffective treatment. Again I think they are on a loser here as, if they try that in public, they will have to expose the poverty of their knowledge about medical research.
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No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little. Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797) Blog - Majikthyse |
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#37 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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#38 |
Illuminator
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God forbid that they should appear ignorant as well as incompetent....
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#39 |
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We are getting quite speculative here, especially as we don't know the details of the BCA claim. But they are forced to resort to the evidence issue. If they choose not to do that, and instead base the claim on whether they knew the evidence was bad, they abandon all credibility for their practice.
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No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little. Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797) Blog - Majikthyse |
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#40 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2006
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More blogging…
Another Back-Cracking Quack Attack – The Sequel http://thinking-is-dangerous.blogspo...attack_18.html Pseudoscientists Sue Simon Singh http://skepchick.org:80/blog/?p=2200 Litigation instead of evidence http://skepti.net:80/index.php/2008/...d-of-evidence/ British Chiropractic Association Afraid of Criticism http://jdc325.wordpress.com:80/2008/...-of-criticism/ |
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