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Old 28th August 2008, 08:59 AM   #1
Confuseling
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Thermal expansion examples

Got pictures of / articles about things falling apart due to thermal expansion? Post 'em here...



[I saw some really neat photos of train tracks rippling in the European heatwave a few summers ago. Can't blooming find em though... anyone?]
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Old 28th August 2008, 09:11 AM   #2
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I suppose Thermal expansion of engine components, or the old Ball Hoop physics example pics would be quite fun as well.

or the way of banding materiats by heating a metal Band/hoop around something to draw it together.

Or we could also have ways to open a tasty jar of Piccalily using a hot water tap and this newly invented thermal expansion
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Old 28th August 2008, 09:31 AM   #3
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Since this "crazy idea" that metal expands when it gets hot was invented by NIST there can't be any "true" examples of this and anything presented showing such is obvious disinfo.

Next thing you know "Government" scientists will tell us ice floats.
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Old 28th August 2008, 09:56 AM   #4
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Here's an interesting little article Bridge Girder Failure During Construction

"The Exponent investigation determined that each girder was restrained by a frictional force at the hanger beam end and with pedestal concrete at the hinge end. When thermal expansion occurred in the girders, the friction force limited the amount of expansion that could occur. This caused one girder to buckle laterally, causing a chain reaction in the other girders."


Not a building but it does illustrate that if the expansion imparts enough force against a structural member it could lead to a disproportionate amount of damage.
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Old 28th August 2008, 10:03 AM   #5
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The whole principle behind how a thermostat works is thermal expansion.

And here's a page from a grade school displaying thermal expansion information for various metals: http://www.schenectady.k12.ny.us/use...Expansion.html

But grade school math may be beyond the abilities of truthers to understand...
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Old 28th August 2008, 10:14 AM   #6
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A video showing repairs on roller bearings on a viaduct in the UK. Roller bearings are necessary to allow the for thermal expansion of the viaduct.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
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Old 28th August 2008, 10:26 AM   #7
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Two examples of thermal expansion in concrete structures causing collapse:

Quote:
The Katrantzos Sport Department Store was an 8-story reinforced concrete building. Its fire started at the 7th floor and rapidly spread throughout the building, due to lack of vertical or horizontal compartmentation and the absence of sprinklers. Collected evidence indicated that the fire temperatures reached 1000°C over the 2- to 3-hour fire duration, and the firefighters concentrated on containing the fire spread to the adjacent buildings. Upon termination of these fires, it was discovered that a major part of the 5th to 8th floors had collapsed. Various other floor and column failures throughout the Katrantzos Building were also observed (see Figure 1). The cause of these failures was considered to be restraint of the differential thermal expansion of the structure that overloaded its specific elements or connections.
And:

Quote:
On May 21, 1987, Sao Paulo had one of the biggest fires in Brazil, which precipitated a substantial partial collapse of the central core of the tall CESP Building 2.5 This was a 21-story office building, headquarters of the Sao Paulo Power Company (CESP), after whom the building was named. Buildings 1 and 2 of this office complex were both of reinforced concrete framing, with ribbed slab floors. T
.................
Approximately two hours after the beginning of the fire in CESP 2, its structural core area throughout the full building height collapsed. This collapse was attributed to the thermal expansion of the horizontal concrete T-beam frames under the elevated fire temperatures, which led to the fracture of the vertical framing elements and their connections in the middle of the building, and the consequent progressive loss of gravity load-carrying capacity (see Figure 2).
Both from Fire Protection Engineering - Historical Survey of Multistory Building Collapses Due to Fire. See the article for pictures.

Of course the truthers will complain that this was not steel structures. But it just shows that even concrete is vulnerable to thermal expansion in fire.
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Old 28th August 2008, 12:19 PM   #8
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Why does NIST call this a new phenomenon?
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Old 28th August 2008, 12:24 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Lennart Hyland View Post
Why does NIST call this a new phenomenon?
Where in the report did NIST say that because I don't remember reading that?
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Old 28th August 2008, 12:28 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Where in the report did NIST say that because I don't remember reading that?
I havent read the report. Shyam Sunder said that during the press conference.
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Old 28th August 2008, 12:29 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Lennart Hyland View Post
Why does NIST call this a new phenomenon?
Okay, someone tell me I am wrong when I say this: NIST does not say thermal expansion itself is a new phenomenon, but thermal expansion causing a progressive collapse is new, or a new phenomenon.

Originally Posted by Sunder
Our study has identified thermal expansion as a new phenomenon that can cause the collapse of a structure.
See the press conference transcript for example.

Let's actually get all of the phenomenon sentences out of there:

Originally Posted by Sunders
It fell because thermal expansion, a phenomenon not considered in current building design practice, caused a fire-induced progressive collapse.
Originally Posted by Sunders
And as we dug into it, we figured out that there was a phenomenon that we had not previously recognized in current practice, the issue of thermal expansion, which actually could cause this particular problem to happen.
Originally Posted by Sunders
It simply says we have identified a new phenomenon that previously has not been caused -- seen to have caused building collapse.
Originally Posted by Sunders
What we found was that a phenomenon that previously here had not yet -- had not caused a structural collapse, actually was important enough to actually to have caused the collapse of this particular building.

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Old 28th August 2008, 12:34 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by mrbaracuda View Post
Okay, someone tell me I am wrong when I say this: NIST does not say thermal expansion itself is a new phenomenon, but thermal expansion causing a progressive collapse is new, or a new phenomenon.



See the press conference transcript for example.

Ah I understand! I guess some truther just took it out of contex again
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Old 28th August 2008, 12:39 PM   #13
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And let's not forget thermal expansion joints.
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Old 28th August 2008, 12:46 PM   #14
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Shades of Arup's stance in the WTC 7 findings, don't you all think?
http://www.arup.com/fire/newsitem.cfm?pageid=7056

Granted, Arup's talking about the main towers, not WTC 7, but still... do we think that Arup's (and possibly the University of Edinburgh's) theses had an effect on the direction NIST went with the WTC 7 report? That's the way it looks to me.
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Old 28th August 2008, 01:18 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Confuseling View Post
Got pictures of / articles about things falling apart due to thermal expansion? Post 'em here...



[I saw some really neat photos of train tracks rippling in the European heatwave a few summers ago. Can't blooming find em though... anyone?]
Sure hope someone invents a device soon to tell people which way my car is going to turn, you know a turn signal, or how about something to replace those pesky fuses that are all ways blowing in my house with something that will break the Circuits.
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Old 28th August 2008, 01:47 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by mrbaracuda View Post
Okay, someone tell me I am wrong when I say this: NIST does not say thermal expansion itself is a new phenomenon, but thermal expansion causing a progressive collapse is new, or a new phenomenon.
Your right from what I understand, however what some major players in the truth movement have made it sound like was that thermal expansion is an entirely new phenomenon all together, not simply the first major player in contributing to a building collapse
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Old 28th August 2008, 02:39 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Lennart Hyland View Post
Ah I understand! I guess some truther just took it out of contex again
Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
Your right from what I understand, however what some major players in the truth movement have made it sound like was that thermal expansion is an entirely new phenomenon all together, not simply the first major player in contributing to a building collapse
Yes, the lack of comprehension and inability to comprehend the easiest texts is showing again as a trait inherent to the troof movement. I think parts of their 'leaders' understand it fine though and you know the rest.
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Old 28th August 2008, 02:50 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by mrbaracuda View Post
Okay, someone tell me I am wrong when I say this: NIST does not say thermal expansion itself is a new phenomenon, but thermal expansion causing a progressive collapse is new, or a new phenomenon.
You know, I'm not sure that it being novel as a primary cause of structure collapse is true. I hope Architect comes around and comments on this, because I think he'd be in a position to definitively speak about it. But from what little I've read - and disclaimer: I'm not anywhere near the structural engineering or architectural fields - it seems as though Arup and European agencies are all over that sort of building failure mode. I get the impression that they think US standards are lacking in regards to thermal expansion considerations. Of course, I may be wrong about this - again, not my field -but that's the impression I get, possibly shaped by the fact that I've only looked into this in the context of the 9/11 events. Anyway, my point is that I'm wondering if there aren't collapses induced by thermal expansion that European engineering firms and government agencies concerned with building codes would know about that NIST wouldn't.

My 2 cents. Architect: You reading this thread? Mind speaking towards this issue? Or anyone else who'd be in the know? I'm very fuzzy on this, seeing as how it's not my field, and would appreciate clarification, or outright correction if need be.
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Old 28th August 2008, 03:02 PM   #19
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I could have a look at German or maybe even EU-wide standards I guess.
At least the EU-wide regulations should be available in English.

ETA: No luck so far since I don't really know what to look for. I'm considering calling or e-mailing a (local) high rise building firm now.
Maybe you (as well as others) can do the same.

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Old 28th August 2008, 03:23 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus View Post
You know, I'm not sure that it being novel as a primary cause of structure collapse is true.
I think the main problem here, and not only with truthers, is that you really have to keep in mind that those guys at NIST are technical nerds. And Sunder is the lead nerd so to say.

So if Sunders says "It fell because thermal expansion, a phenomenon not considered in current building design practice, caused a fire-induced progressive collapse" he means just that. It is very specific in my opinion and not talking about any collapse, but a fire-induced progressive collapse.

Originally Posted by Sunders
And as we dug into it, we figured out that there was a phenomenon that we had not previously recognized in current practice, the issue of thermal expansion, which actually could cause this particular problem to happen.
The recommendations for improving the building codes are pretty specific as well:

Quote:
Does this mean there are hundreds or thousands of unsafe tall buildings with long span supports that must be retrofitted in some way? How would you retrofit a building to prevent this problem?

While the partial or total collapse of a tall building due to fires is a rare event, NIST strongly urges building owners, operators, and designers to evaluate buildings to ensure the adequate fire performance of structural systems. Of particular concern are the effects of thermal expansion in buildings with one or more of the following characteristics: long-span floor systems, connections that cannot accommodate thermal effects, floor framing that induces asymmetric forces on girders, and composite floor systems, whose shear studs could fail due to differential thermal expansion (i.e., heat-induced expansion of material at different rates). Engineers should be able to design cost-effective fixes to address any areas of concern identified by such evaluations.

Several existing, emerging, or even anticipated capabilities could have helped prevent the collapse of WTC 7. The degree to which these capabilities improve performance remains to be evaluated. Possible options for developing cost-effective fixes include:

More robust connections and framing systems to better resist effects of thermal expansion on the structural system.

Structural systems expressly designed to prevent progressive collapse. Current model building codes do not require that buildings be designed to resist progressive collapse.

Better thermal insulation (i.e., reduced conductivity and/or increased thickness) to limit heating of structural steel and minimize both thermal expansion and weakening effects. Insulation has been used to protect steel strength, but it could be used to maintain a lower temperature in the steel framing to limit thermal expansion.

Improved compartmentation in tenant areas to limit the spread of fires.

Thermally resistant window assemblies to limit breakage, reduce air supply and retard fire growth.
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Old 28th August 2008, 03:29 PM   #21
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Quote:
The building is One Meridian Plaza, a 38-story, 756,000-square-foot office tower where a fire in 1991 killed three firefighters and heavily damaged 11 floors.

THE fire on Feb. 11, 1991, started when a workman's chemicals and rags were ignited accidentally. The blaze, which burned for 19 hours, raged from the 22d floor to the 30th floor, raining down glass panels and debris to the street below, before a sprinkler system installed by a tenant on the 30th floor extinguished the flames.
Quote:
Prior to deciding to evacuate the building, firefighters noticed significant structural displacement occurring in the stair enclosures. A command officer indicated that cracks large enough to place a man’s fist through developed at one point. One of the granite exterior wall panels on the east stair enclosure was dislodged by the thermal expansion of the steel framing behind it. After the fire, there was evident significant structural damage to horizontal steel members and floor sections on most of the fire damaged floors. Beams and girders sagged and twisted -- some as much as three feet --under severe fire exposures, and fissures developed in the reinforced concrete floor assemblies in many places. Despite this extraordinary exposure, the columns continued to support their loads without obvious damage

All interior firefighting efforts were halted after almost 11 hours of uninterrupted fire in the building. Consultation with a structural engineer and structural damage observed by units operating in the building led to the belief that there was a possibility of a pancake structural collapse of the fire damaged floors. Bearing this risk in mind along with the loss of three personnel and the lack of progress against the fire despite having secured adequate water pressure and flow for interior fire streams, an order was given to evacuate the building at 0700 on February 24. At the time of the evacuation, the fire appeared to be under control on the 22nd though 24th floors. It continued to bum on floors 25 and 26 and was spreading upward. There was a heavy smoke condition throughout most of the upper floors. The evacuation was completed by 0730.
1 Meridian Plaza fire -Philadelphia, 1991

Operative thing is that the fire was stopped by SPRINKLER SYSTEM on 30th floor

Prevented fire from extending any more - WTC 7 sprinkler system was inoperable do to
lack of water.
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Old 28th August 2008, 03:56 PM   #22
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For another of the recent threads on this I worked up a list of not-so-recent inventions that are either necessitated by, or make use of (or both), thermal expansion:

• Mercury thermometer: 1715 (by some dude named Fahrenheit -- coincidence, or conspiracy?)

• Expansion gaps in railroad tracks: at least since the first use of steel rails in 1857

• Bi-metallic electric thermostat: 1885 (apparently preceded by non-electric self-regulating bi-metallic furnace damper flaps)

• Hot rivet construction: for buildings, 1887 (the Eiffel Tower), but use in shipbuilding might have pre-dated that

But now that this strange phenomenon of thermal expansion has been rediscovered, I'm hopeful that we can finally solve the mystery of why pendulum clocks slow down in hot weather and speed up in cold weather, and do something about it.

Oh, wait:

• Temperature-compensated clock pendulum: 1721 (liquid), 1726 (solid)

So, 280+ years ago, scientists and clockmakers were not only aware of the phenomenon but making use of it and devising ways to work around it where needed, and yet it's new to today's truthers. Dr. Evil and his [finger quotes]LAY - ZER[/finger quotes] seem right up to date by comparison.

Respectfully,
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Old 28th August 2008, 04:01 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Dr. Evil and his [finger quotes]LAY - ZER[/finger quotes] seem right up to date by comparison.


That brought joy to my heart.
Since you haven't replied to my PM from a couple of weeks ago, thanks again for your help with my dishwasher. I dunno if I ever told you, but the upper basket thing was just derailed, which I didn't notice.
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Old 28th August 2008, 04:26 PM   #24
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How about sea level rise due to global warming.
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Old 28th August 2008, 04:28 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by 1337m4n View Post
How about sea level rise due to global warming.
Ooh... controversial.
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Old 28th August 2008, 04:31 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Confuseling View Post
Ooh... controversial.
It's how I roll.
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Old 28th August 2008, 04:42 PM   #27
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1337m4n!
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Old 28th August 2008, 05:13 PM   #28
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A fire sprinkler valve operates on the principle of thermal expansion. Typically a small glass bulb filled with liquid acts as a blocking device which prevents a spring loaded valve from opening. When the valve reaches a certain temperature, the liquid inside that bulb expands enough to cause it to break. And in turn that allows the valve to open. By design that results in releasing water to suppress the fire.

Of course a fire sprinkler system will only work correctly if the valve is supplied with sufficient water pressure. If not, and if the fire continues to burn, thermal expansion of various building components may become severe enough to cause structural connections to fail.

So when properly applied, the principle of thermal expansion may have helped save WTC7 from its fate. But for lack of sufficient water supply, in a tragic irony, that same principle was directly responsible for its demise.
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Old 28th August 2008, 05:29 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
A fire sprinkler valve operates on the principle of thermal expansion. Typically a small glass bulb filled with liquid acts as a blocking device which prevents a spring loaded valve from opening. When the valve reaches a certain temperature, the liquid inside that bulb expands enough to cause it to break. And in turn that allows the valve to open. By design that results in releasing water to suppress the fire.

Of course a fire sprinkler system will only work correctly if the valve is supplied with sufficient water pressure. If not, and if the fire continues to burn, thermal expansion of various building components may become severe enough to cause structural connections to fail.
Fascinating! I didn't know that. Thanks for the input.
I guess the mystery about the red (and apparently also yellow) pieces is solved then?




Quote:
So when properly applied, the principle of thermal expansion may have helped save WTC7 from its fate. But for lack of sufficient water supply, in a tragic irony, that same principle was directly responsible for its demise.
Heh. At least no one was hurt.

On a 2nd thought: That glass piece must have a low tolerance to heat then, correct?

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Old 28th August 2008, 05:47 PM   #30
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Quote:
At full speed and cruising altitude, despite outside temperatures of -55 Celsius (-67 Fahrenheit), the Concorde's skin would heat up to 127C (260.6 F) at the nose and 91C- 98C (196F-208F) on the fuselage and the wings.
...
Her cruising altitude is 60,000 feet, her top speed is Mach 2.04, and due to friction heating, the Concorde expands approximately 8 inches during flight.
I make that a not to be sniffed at 0.3%.

http://www.intrepidmuseum.org/pages/concorde

Space shuttles are another example, but perhaps the temperatures are rather extreme for our purposes. I don't know - how much does the actual body of a shuttle heat up during reentry, rather than just the shields? Where's R. Mackey when you need him?
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Old 28th August 2008, 06:08 PM   #31
Crazy Chainsaw
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Originally Posted by 1337m4n View Post
How about sea level rise due to global warming.
NO the ice is actually expanded more than liquid water, that would be thermal contraction as the Ice Crystal actually deteriorates and the water takes up less space.
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Old 28th August 2008, 06:37 PM   #32
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Erm... do I call you Mr. Chainsaw? Makes you sound like a psychopath. I admire your work, anyway.

To be fair, thermal expansion also plays a part. It just isn't certain how much.

http://sedac.ciesin.columbia.edu/mva/WR1987/WR1987.html

Incidentally, you mentioned something about indicator lights earlier (or turn signals, across the pond). I don't understand - could you explain?
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Old 28th August 2008, 07:00 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Confuseling View Post
Erm... do I call you Mr. Chainsaw? Makes you sound like a psychopath. I admire your work, anyway.

To be fair, thermal expansion also plays a part. It just isn't certain how much.

http://sedac.ciesin.columbia.edu/mva/WR1987/WR1987.html

Incidentally, you mentioned something about indicator lights earlier (or turn signals, across the pond). I don't understand - could you explain?
You may call me what ever you wish, I am kind of used to that by now, most just use CC.

Actually the melting Ice takes up more space than the water, so sea level rise is just the filling of a basin the ocean with a fluid, and that fluid rising to a higher level.
The pan evaporation rate of water is also falling do to global dimming, which is water converting to water vapor by exposure to direct sunlight, so thermal expansion is not playing a major or noticeable part in sea level rise at this time.

The indicator lights work on the principle of uneven expansion, of different metals-Bi metals to cause the lights to flash once a current is established and the metals heat.
Circuit breakers in electrical Circuits are also bi metal strips and work the same way.
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Old 28th August 2008, 07:14 PM   #34
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Am I the only one who thought to say it? C'mon, don't tell me I have to bite the bullet here.
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Old 28th August 2008, 07:17 PM   #35
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Quote:
Projections of components contributing to sea level change from 1990 to 2100 (this period is chosen for consistency with the IPCC Second Assessment Report), using a range of AOGCMs following the IS92a scenario (including the direct effect of sulphate aerosol emissions) give:

* thermal expansion of 0.11 to 0.43 m, accelerating through the 21st century;
* a glacier contribution of 0.01 to 0.23 m;
* a Greenland contribution of –0.02 to 0.09 m;
* an Antarctic contribution of –0.17 to 0.02 m.
http://www.grida.no/climate/IPCC_tar/wg1/409.htm

So IPCC estimate it will be a more significant effect than ice, unless I'm completely misunderstanding something here.

ETA: The more recent report...
Quote:
Since 1993 thermal expansion of the oceans
has contributed about 57% of the sum of the estimated individual
contributions to the sea level rise, with decreases in glaciers and
ice caps contributing about 28% and losses from the polar ice sheets
contributing the remainder.
http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-re...yr/ar4_syr.pdf
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Old 28th August 2008, 08:00 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Confuseling View Post
http://www.grida.no/climate/IPCC_tar/wg1/409.htm

So IPCC estimate it will be a more significant effect than ice, unless I'm completely misunderstanding something here.

ETA: The more recent report...

http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-re...yr/ar4_syr.pdf
Water is one of the few substances that expands as it freezes, so Ice takes up more room than water.
So expansion from heating does not apply to Ice, thermal expansion occurs when Ice is cooled, so an Ice age is the thermal expansion of water, and global warming is themal contraction and filling of he ocean basin.
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Old 28th August 2008, 08:07 PM   #37
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Alright, alright, I'll do it.

"If I warm up my breasts with my hands, do you think they'll get bigger or smaller?"
- Asuka Langley Soryu, Neon Genesis Evangelion episode 10. First aired in 1995.

Yes, truthers, even a god damn Japanese cartoon has more science content than your demented ravings. Suck my weaboo [LIME POPSICLE].
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Old 29th August 2008, 12:13 AM   #38
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One of the firefighters' greatest fears in the "mill fires" in N England was the expansion of steel girders, as they tended to push out and cause sudden collapse of the walls.

No links available I'm afraid. The example comes from a pm conversation I had with a UK fire technician.
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Old 29th August 2008, 01:16 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Jontg View Post
Alright, alright, I'll do it.

"If I warm up my breasts with my hands, do you think they'll get bigger or smaller?"
- Asuka Langley Soryu, Neon Genesis Evangelion episode 10. First aired in 1995.

Yes, truthers, even a god damn Japanese cartoon has more science content than your demented ravings. Suck my weaboo [LIME POPSICLE].
You sick, sick puppy! Bad puppy!
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Old 29th August 2008, 07:25 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Confuseling View Post
I make that a not to be sniffed at 0.3%.

http://www.intrepidmuseum.org/pages/concorde

Space shuttles are another example, but perhaps the temperatures are rather extreme for our purposes. I don't know - how much does the actual body of a shuttle heat up during reentry, rather than just the shields? Where's R. Mackey when you need him?


The SR-71 also had to be designed with this in mind:


Quote:
Major portions of the upper and lower inboard wing skin of the SR-71 were actually corrugated, not smooth. The thermal expansion stresses of a smooth skin would have resulted in the aircraft skin splitting or curling. By making the surface corrugated, the skin was allowed to expand vertically as well as horizontally without overstressing, which also increased longitudinal strength. Despite the fact that it worked, aerodynamicists were initially against the concept and accused the design engineers of trying to make a 1920s era Ford Trimotor — known for its corrugated aluminum skin — go Mach 3

They also had problems with leaking fuel tanks when on the ground - the tanks would expand to seal when in flight, but when they cooled, leaks would form.



Quote:
To allow for thermal expansion at the high operational temperatures the fuselage panels were manufactured to fit only loosely on the ground. Proper alignment was only achieved when the airframe warmed up due to air resistance at high speeds, causing the airframe to expand several inches. Because of this, and the lack of a fuel sealing system that could handle the extreme temperatures, the aircraft would leak JP-7 jet fuel onto the runway before it took off.
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