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Old 26th September 2008, 07:14 PM   #1
ozziemate
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Case: Flying forks - denial of reality

Hi Guys/Gals,
The following is a real life situation occuring about 6 years ago during a time when I was doing advocacy work in a local acute care psychiatric hospital.
The reason for bringing this story here to JREF is to put it on trial.
The issue is denial of reality or denial of a persons truth.
You being both the judge and jury have to decide if the experience described can be legitimately, and resonably denied as actualy occuring.

The situation:

Food hall or canteen of the local acute care ward of a major Psychiatric hospital in Australia. [ one of the best ones too I might add IMO]

A number of in-patients are having their evening meals.
General behaviour is good. Quiet and orderly.
2 qualified female psych. nurses are supervising in a corner about 15 metres from the patient in question [ PX ].
The nurses have a clear view of our patient as he attempts to eat his meal.
>>>>>
I was sitting assisting another patient eat her meal and behind to one side of the patient [ PX ] in question approximately 2.5 meters away.
I had a clear view of his hands and the meal on his table in front of him.

>>>>

As I was distracted from my patient and watching the patient [PX] eat his meal I witnessed him lean back momentarilly and raise his hands and put them behind his head. As he did so I saw his fork which was laying on his plate of uneaten food literally fly across the room perpendicular to my Line of site and land about 15 meters away.
Both I and the patient [PX] witnessed this event.

[PX] Immediately yelled out "did you see that did you see that?" to the nurses, who immediately discounted the patient as having some sort of episode. [PX] got out of his chair and very angrilly went to fetch his fork, commenting that they never believe me....[non-specific commentary]
"if it didn't happen why am I having to get my fork" is the sort of thinking he must have been going through was my thoughts at the time.

OK....with me so far?
Summary:

1] PX experiences an event that is suggestive of telekenisis.
2] He believes he is directly associated with that event.
3] I witness the event from behind also by "chance"
4] I believe I was not directly associated with it's manifestation.
5] Nurses on duty believe the patient is experiencing a psychotic episode or just simply misbehaving not having seen the fork actually leave his plate seemingly by itself.
6] Only 2 witnesses to the event. Patient PX and me.

After the event the patient [PX] condition deteriorates to the point where he is placed in solitary. His behaviour becomes threatening and appears very angry.

ok....

Now please tell me on what grounds you would discount this experience as delusional both from patients{PX} perespective, and my perspective.

Note:
At no stage am I suggesting a theory as to how or why. At no stage am I making any interpetation of the event itself in the above. Stating only facts as occured on this night.

Any thoughts about what his thoughts were, are purely qualified speculation.

So the case is presented to the court of JREF
Is there any sound ration-al that states you must declare his and my experiences as not real and true as described
evidence:
none.

Last edited by ozziemate; 26th September 2008 at 09:10 PM.
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Old 26th September 2008, 07:26 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
...

So the case is presented to the court of JREF
Is there any sound ration-al that states you must declare his and my experiences as not real and true as described
evidence:
none.

It is not so much a case of declaring them not real, but a case of stating that you cannot declare them to be real. All we have here are two witness accounts, and there are many known issues with eyewitness testimony. If you haven't yet had the chance, I would recommend reading Michael Shermer's Why People Believe Weird Things. IIRC, he describes the time he was abducted by aliens. He has a very lucid, detailed account of the abduction. He then goes on to explain that although the incident was real, it isn't what actually happened.
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Old 26th September 2008, 07:27 PM   #3
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Quote:
Is there any sound ration-al that states you must declare his and my experiences as not real and true as described
The fact that your story is anecdotal is reason enough not to take it as 'true' without more evidence than a mere story.
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Old 26th September 2008, 07:47 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
It is not so much a case of declaring them not real, but a case of stating that you cannot declare them to be real.
ration-nal please - dig deep....



Quote:
All we have here are two witness accounts, and there are many known issues with eyewitness testimony. If you haven't yet had the chance, I would recommend reading Michael Shermer's Why People Believe Weird Things.
I am not talking about belief. The case describes actual events that occurred.
And it is the object of this thread to find out what sound reasoning can be used to relegate the events to mere belief. I am asking I guess, why I should consider my perception of reality to be deluded.

Quote:
IIRC, he describes the time he was abducted by aliens. He has a very lucid, detailed account of the abduction. He then goes on to explain that although the incident was real, it isn't what actually happened.
However in this case if you witnessed the abductions as well what would you be typing now?....and what would he believe?
I do appreciate your thoughts by the way and you are helping me investigate the issue of denial of reality which exists in just about every one and not just those with paranormal experiences.

In this case in question I know [ as distinct] from believe that what I witnessed was true and actually occurred. I have no sound reason to doubt my experiences or the consequential beliefs that this type of experience leads to. To know that telekinetic events occur is actually quite an awsoome experience in itself as it immediately proved to me exactly why most of the patients were in the psych ward to begin with that being "denial of reality" and that as you can imagine leads to a pretty dramitic shift in my personal paradigm.
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Old 26th September 2008, 07:54 PM   #5
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Just based on this part of the story:

Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
I witnessed him lean back momentarilly and raise his hands and put them behind his head. As he did so I saw his fork which was laying on his plate of uneaten food literally fly across the room perpendicular to my Line of site and land about 15 meters away.
Both I and the patient [PX] witnessed this event.

[PX] Immediately yelled out "did you see that did you see that?" to the nurses, who immediately discounted the patient as having some sort of episode. [PX] got out of his chair and very angrilly went to fetch his fork, commenting that they never believe me....

... it sounds to me like this was a sleight-of-hand trick orchestrated by PX himself to try to get attention from you and the other staff. I'm not a sleight of hand expert, but raising his hands behind his head might have been key to making the trick work. I could imagine a small piece of string rigged to catapult the fork when he moved his arms or something to that effect.
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Last edited by krelnik; 26th September 2008 at 07:57 PM.
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Old 26th September 2008, 07:57 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by krelnik View Post
Just based on this part of the story:




... it sounds to me like this was a sleight-of-hand trick orchestrated by PX himself to try to get attention from you and the other staff. I'm not a sleight of hand expert, but raising his hands behind his head might have been key to making the trick work.
Funny I had spent ages trying to convince myself of just this solution...but alas no, the hands would have been about 2 feet away from the fork when the fork went flying.
Also the patient in question was way too ill to be able to do anything so expertly....he could barely walk due to the heavy meds he was on.
also the fork didn't perform an arc in it's flight but flew virtually 6 inches above table height almost in a flat tragectory till it fell to the floor about 15 meters away, The speed would have been maybe [estimation] twice as fast as a person running.

Last edited by ozziemate; 26th September 2008 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 26th September 2008, 07:59 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
In this case in question I know [ as distinct] from believe that what I witnessed was true and actually occurred. I have no sound reason to doubt my experiences or the consequential beliefs that this type of experience leads to.

And there is your problem. One of the first, and most important, steps to applying skepticism is to first apply it to what you know. It is amazing how many different ways your observations can be incorrect. Again, I would refer you to the book as it describes many different ways your brain can trick you when it comes to interpreting, or even remembering, what you have seen.

This is a very cool site that has several tests and other examples to demonstrate how what you think you see/know may not really be what you saw/knew.
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Old 26th September 2008, 08:04 PM   #8
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I also have had other similar experiences in witnessing events generated by inpatients which I may describe later...
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Old 26th September 2008, 08:04 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
Funny I had spent ages trying to convince myself of just this solution...but alas no, the hands would have been about 2 feet away from the fork when the fork went flying.
There are many tricks that involve hidden pieces of string or thread, that's why I think its very interesting that he moved his hands behind his head right at the key moment. Even in a hospital one could have access to thread.

Have you ever described the scene precisely to someone who is skilled in sleight of hand, such as the man this web site is named after? A magician might recognize the exact trick.

Quote:
Also the patient in question was way too ill to be able to do anything so expertly....he could barely walk due to the heavy meds he was on.
Do you know the patients history well enough to know whether he ever had any sleight-of-hand experience? Even on meds, if it was a simple trick he's done many times before, it might have been possible.

Again, I'm not an expert in sleight of hand techniques, you need to find one and run this by them.
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Old 26th September 2008, 08:05 PM   #10
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It's far more likely that you're confused or lying than forks start flying in defiance of all known laws of physics.
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Old 26th September 2008, 08:06 PM   #11
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No need to dispute you saw what you saw.
How it was done is the question.
And that's beyond investigation now.

You know that magicians can set up even more elaborate and seemingly inexplicable events.
With some string I could make a fork fly.
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Old 26th September 2008, 08:09 PM   #12
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15 metres is quite a distance for any sleight of hand jiggery pokery. It's almost the distance of the goalmouth from the edge of the penalty area in soccer. If you picture yourself standing there needing to throw a fork to the goalkeeper you'd probably want to throw overarm rather than underarm. Especially if you're a woman.

Interesting OP Ozzie.
When people start moving into the area of denying experience in order to fit with theory we've entered a bit of a never-never land.
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Old 26th September 2008, 08:13 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
Now please tell me on what grounds you would discount this experience as delusional both from patients{PX} perespective, and my perspective.
On no grounds.
Hey, it might as well have a "paranormal" explanation indeed.

The problem is, we have absolutely no way of knowing that.

So until then, it is completely useless to waste time pondering on possible "paranormal" explanations.

We can only wait next time another opportunity shows up and see if we can test it.

But sitting down to speculate without the possibility of setting the speculation (or "guess") to an experiment, is nothing but a waste of time. Better use that time to write a novel, make love to someone, or watch a movie.

Cheers.
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Old 26th September 2008, 08:19 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
And there is your problem. One of the first, and most important, steps to applying skepticism is to first apply it to what you know. It is amazing how many different ways your observations can be incorrect. Again, I would refer you to the book as it describes many different ways your brain can trick you when it comes to interpreting, or even remembering, what you have seen.

This is a very cool site that has several tests and other examples to demonstrate how what you think you see/know may not really be what you saw/knew.
The site is worth a look even if it is outragouesly designed.
I think you fail to see my point about "denial of reality".

Say for example you have fallen in love with someone and no one knows except you, and you are seriously considering "Dramatic" action regarding this "truth" You spend months trying to assess the validity of your feelings, then you go to a psychologists who in a spate of unprofessional conduct tells you that your feelings are false and that the person you love doesn't exist.
It's all in your mind he says there for untrue....

What would your reaction be do you think if you were silly enough to believe him?
How would it effect the way you loved in the future, if love was possible at all....?
How would you feel believing that your feelings are now invalid and cannot be taken seriously by your self let alone any one else?

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Old 26th September 2008, 08:24 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
The site is worth a look even if it is outragouesly designed.

If you have comments on that site, get in touch with the poster who goes by the name tkingdoll. She works with that group and can pass on any suggestions.

Quote:
I think yuo fail to see my point about denial of reality.

Judging by this comment and your example, it sounds like you are confusing reality with perception of reality. It isn't about whether or not anyone denying what you recollect, but whether or not what you think you saw is actually what happened. This is why eyewitness testimony is not considered the strongest evidence for something being true.

Again, it is not denying you saw something, it is not accepting your explanation for what you saw.
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Old 26th September 2008, 08:29 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by krelnik View Post
There are many tricks that involve hidden pieces of string or thread, that's why I think its very interesting that he moved his hands behind his head right at the key moment. Even in a hospital one could have access to thread.

Have you ever described the scene precisely to someone who is skilled in sleight of hand, such as the man this web site is named after? A magician might recognize the exact trick.



Do you know the patients history well enough to know whether he ever had any sleight-of-hand experience? Even on meds, if it was a simple trick he's done many times before, it might have been possible.

Again, I'm not an expert in sleight of hand techniques, you need to find one and run this by them.

OK this is good,

You are not actually declaring the experience as invalid but merely stating that my interpretation of it may be flawed... and of course you are entitled to your belief and I appreciate your offer of alternative explanations, to that which may be paranormal.
It is true that if I was being set up for a trick that I could be deluded into seeing what would in all perspectives appear to be paranormal.
However I would counter this not only because of consequent witnessing experiences of other patients over the next few months but also that the patient was simply "way too" sick to even cogitate the idea.

We are talking about a lock down acute care psychiatric ward that is normally not a very pleasant place to be in....
However I do not expect to foster belief in my "truth" with out supporting it with reason either...
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Old 26th September 2008, 08:35 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
If you have comments on that site, get in touch with the poster who goes by the name tkingdoll. She works with that group and can pass on any suggestions.




Judging by this comment and your example, it sounds like you are confusing reality with perception of reality. It isn't about whether or not anyone denying what you recollect, but whether or not what you think you saw is actually what happened. This is why eyewitness testimony is not considered the strongest evidence for something being true.

Again, it is not denying you saw something, it is not accepting your explanation for what you saw.
What I saw and what the patient saw was a fork go flying across a room for a distance of about 15 meters. Seemingly unaided in it's travels.

I have since concluded that it was a telekinetic event but this is not in debate.

The question is:
Did the patient and I witness a fork fly across the room leaving and travelling apparently unaided from the patients plate?
And if this is held as untrue then sound reaosning must be applied as to why this is untrue.

It's a bit like saying " a fly landed on my shoulder yesterday"?
Did it land on my shoulder if I can't prove it?
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Old 26th September 2008, 08:37 PM   #18
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Quote:
If you have comments on that site, get in touch with the poster who goes by the name tkingdoll. She works with that group and can pass on any suggestions.
actually it is so outrageous.... I like it..! Sort of "quirky" yes?
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Old 26th September 2008, 08:40 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
On no grounds.
Hey, it might as well have a "paranormal" explanation indeed.

The problem is, we have absolutely no way of knowing that.

So until then, it is completely useless to waste time pondering on possible "paranormal" explanations.

We can only wait next time another opportunity shows up and see if we can test it.

But sitting down to speculate without the possibility of setting the speculation (or "guess") to an experiment, is nothing but a waste of time. Better use that time to write a novel, make love to someone, or watch a movie.

Cheers.
So as a judge and jury your would return the verdict:
"Don't know what to believe as to the causation of the event or the causation is unknown and unknowable"
However the events actual happenstance is now moot or irrelevant due to the fact that it is not able to be evidenced, therefore there is no reason to declare the event itself as untrue or true

good summation yes?

a correct verdict IMO

Last edited by ozziemate; 26th September 2008 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 26th September 2008, 08:44 PM   #20
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You are asking people here to disprove something you say you have seen. This is obviously impossible, as is knifes flying through telekenesis.
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Old 26th September 2008, 08:47 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You are asking people here to disprove something you say you have seen. This is obviously impossible, as is knifes flying through telekenesis.
I propose that the JREF forum starts a monthly omniscience award. Call them the Omnis or something.
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Old 26th September 2008, 08:48 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
What I saw and what the patient saw was a fork go flying across a room for a distance of about 15 meters. Seemingly unaided in it's travels.

I have since concluded that it was a telekinetic event but this is not in debate.
Then discussion is pointless as you have already reached what appears to be a unshakable conclusion.

Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
The question is:
Did the patient and I witness a fork fly across the room leaving and travelling apparently unaided from the patients plate?
It is impossible to reach any conclusion based on a non-credible single "eye witness'" account from 6 years ago.

Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
And if this is held as untrue then sound reaosning must be applied as to why this is untrue.
There is no such thing as "telekinetic" ability, except in Sci-Fi/camp fire stories.

Which in the in the end, that is exactly what this is - another in a long line of camp fire stories, devoid of any detail or specifics. The teller, you, spins a story with "all bases covered" (without any credible fact) and will discount or not accept any reasonable explanation for the "woo woo" that you suggest.
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Old 26th September 2008, 08:49 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
So as a judge and jury your would return the verdict:
"Don't know what to believe as to the causation of the event or the causation is unknown and unknowable"
However the events actual happenstance is now moot or irrelevant due to the fact that it is not able to be evidenced, therefore there is no reason to declare the event itself as untrue or true

good summation yes?

a correct verdict IMO
What the hell? Were you trying to sound confusing on purpose?

I guess what LionKing said afterwards summarizes my point:

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You are asking people here to disprove something you say you have seen. This is obviously impossible, as is knifes flying through telekenesis.
Exactly.

In other words:
We can't prove that what you saw was not a paranormal phenomena.

Therefore, it's useless thinking about it. Let it go.

On an additional note, if it (or something like that) ever happens again, and you find an opportunity to isolate the event to a controlled experiment, then we might have a case.


I have already told you that the possibility that there is a "paranormal" explanation is not 100% impossible. Why does it seem that it still doesn't please you? Why do you need to believe?
Why do most humans, in fact, need so badly to believe in magic?

Last edited by Ron_Tomkins; 26th September 2008 at 08:53 PM.
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Old 26th September 2008, 08:55 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Locknar View Post
Then discussion is pointless as you have already reached what appears to be a unshakable conclusion.

..snip..

There is no such thing as "telekinetic" ability, except in Sci-Fi/camp fire stories.
this is what's so amusing about Jref
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Old 26th September 2008, 08:56 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
What the hell? Were you trying to sound confusing on purpose?

I guess what LionKing said afterwards summarizes my point:



Exactly.

In other words:
We can't prove that what you saw was not a paranormal phenomena.

Therefore, it's useless thinking about it. Let it go.

On an additional note, if it (or something like that) ever happens again, and you find an opportunity to isolate the event to a controlled experiment, then we might have a case.


I have already told you that the possibility that there is a "paranormal" explanation is not 100% impossible. Why does it seem that it still doesn't please you? Why do you need to believe?
Why do most humans, in fact, need so badly to believe in magic?
just realised I should have titled this thread "flying pork" instead of "flying fork"
but that would suggest that I am playing a game and that is definitely not the case....
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Old 26th September 2008, 08:59 PM   #26
ozziemate
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
What the hell? Were you trying to sound confusing on purpose?

I guess what LionKing said afterwards summarizes my point:



Exactly.

In other words:
We can't prove that what you saw was not a paranormal phenomena.

Therefore, it's useless thinking about it. Let it go.

On an additional note, if it (or something like that) ever happens again, and you find an opportunity to isolate the event to a controlled experiment, then we might have a case.


I have already told you that the possibility that there is a "paranormal" explanation is not 100% impossible. Why does it seem that it still doesn't please you? Why do you need to believe?
Why do most humans, in fact, need so badly to believe in magic?
The thing is "it is not whether it is a paranormal event or not that is in question"
What is in question is why we would decide to declare the reality of what actually occurred [ without interpretation ] as being untrue.

Last edited by ozziemate; 26th September 2008 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 26th September 2008, 09:04 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You are asking people here to disprove something you say you have seen. This is obviously impossible, as is knifes flying through telekenesis.
ok , say I use a previous posters example of aliens

Say I state:
I saw and had breakfast with an alien friend this morning, however he is not able to be seen or heard by anyone else because he has the technology to cloak his presence.... absurd yes?

I saw and had breakfast with my wife this morning but because she ..... see what I mean...

However to declare what I have stated as untrue with out sound reasoning to do so would be irrational IMO.

And like wise to declare that you believe it to be true with out sound reason to do so would also be irrational.



IMO

"I believe that you believe it to be true" is about the only reasonable response other wise you would be placing the burden of your ignorance of the truth on someone else.

Last edited by ozziemate; 26th September 2008 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 26th September 2008, 09:05 PM   #28
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Ozzie, you are using the word "reality" as if it is axiomatic to your observation. This is something that will not be readily accepted here. (Oh and I don't want to start a debate on the nature of reality).
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Old 26th September 2008, 09:10 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
ok , say I use a previous posters example of aliens

Say I state:
I saw and had breakfast with an alien friend this morning, however he is not able to be seen or heard by anyone else because he has the technology to cloak his presence.... absurd yes?

I saw and had breakfast with my wife this morning but because she ..... see what I mean...

However to declare what I have stated as untrue with out sound reasoning to do so would be irrational IMO.

And like wise to declare that you believe it to be true with out sound reason to do so would also be irrational.



IMO

"I believe that you believe it to be true" is about the only reasonable response other wise you would be placing the burden of your ignorance of the truth on someone else.
Your example of the invisible alien is as absurd as flying forks, in my (and I am sure many others) opinion.
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Old 26th September 2008, 09:12 PM   #30
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edit, I just realised the wording of the op may have been misleading and have ammended it accordingly.
I had indicated a presumption in the summary that it was a telekinetic event rather than "suggestive" of a telekinetic event..
my apologies ....

Last edited by ozziemate; 26th September 2008 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 26th September 2008, 09:21 PM   #31
ozziemate
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Ozzie, you are using the word "reality" as if it is axiomatic to your observation. This is something that will not be readily accepted here. (Oh and I don't want to start a debate on the nature of reality).
good point!

and uhm yes it is a great big labarynth of debate on that issue and has been for thousands of years...

Is objective truth available and self evident?...hmmmmm....
I guess in a way I am doing as accused making observation as axiomatic. For example I observe I am typing this post at home using a certain branded computer....is this self evident? It is to me....but of course you can not conclude either way but have to assume that I am typing this post at home as I have said " why would he lie about such a thing?" could be a question to ask.
it also falls under the old question, "if a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it does it make a sound"

Last edited by ozziemate; 26th September 2008 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 26th September 2008, 09:26 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Your example of the invisible alien is as absurd as flying forks, in my (and I am sure many others) opinion.
the problem is the case of the flying fork is not an example or exagerated construct but an actual event that took place as described.
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Old 26th September 2008, 09:34 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
The thing is "it is not whether it is a paranormal event or not that is in question"
What is in question is why we would decide to declare the reality of what actually occurred [ without interpretation ] as being untrue.
No one here is declaring the reality of what occurred because no one here has any evidence to explain what occurred. That is my point.

Interpretation is certainly not a strong enough element by itself to declare the actual reality of what occurred. Evidence is also needed.
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Old 26th September 2008, 09:38 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
No one here is declaring the reality of what occurred because no one here has any evidence to explain what occurred. That is my point.

Interpretation is certainly not a strong enough element by itself to declare the actual reality of what occurred. Evidence is also needed.
so whats the verdict Ron?

Did the events as described take place or not?
four possible answers:
yes,
no,
maybe,
don't know.

Last edited by ozziemate; 26th September 2008 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 26th September 2008, 09:41 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
so whats the verdict Ron?

Did the events as described take place or not?
four possible answers:
yes,
no,
maybe,
don't know.
You seem to have a very hard time understanding very basic concepts when explained to you.

The point I have been trying to make about 4 times by now could be summarized as option 4 in your list.
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Old 26th September 2008, 09:42 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
The question is:
Did the patient and I witness a fork fly across the room leaving and travelling apparently unaided from the patients plate?
And if this is held as untrue then sound reaosning must be applied as to why this is untrue.

The part I highlighted is what makes this problematic. I have no problem accepting that you saw a fork fly across the room (or at least you think you did). It is the fact that you are concluding that it was unaided that is causing difficulties. If you simply state that you saw a fork fly across the room, then we can start developing a test to see if it will happen again, and then develop further tests to see what is causing it to fly.
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Old 26th September 2008, 09:48 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
You seem to have a very hard time understanding very basic concepts when explained to you.

The point I have been trying to make about 4 times by now could be summarized as option 4 in your list.
nah, I just want it totally clear....

There must be an assumption of good will and truth as the first premise, In judicial methodology "innocent until proven guilty" comes to mind other wise society would fail to function.
Also a presumption of sanity and reasonability until proven otherwise.

The "maybe" verdict is a classic have faith, question and keep on questioning with an open mind...IMO

In fact IMO regardless of any evidence provided and shared in a material sense there must always be open minded ness which is why we allow ourselves to question the existance of the universe at all....

Last edited by ozziemate; 26th September 2008 at 09:49 PM.
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Old 26th September 2008, 09:48 PM   #38
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I think the answer is maybe.

Because maybe they happend. And if they happend we don't know if they happend or not. Very simple and obvious answer.

We can't tell if they happend or not... only ozzie knows. He knows what he saw so it has to be true... but maybe they happend? If they happend we can't accept it as true.

... I don't understand...
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Old 26th September 2008, 09:48 PM   #39
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Regardless of what is described in the OP, no actual case of these kinds of things has ever been caught on film or verified in any reliable way. If these events actually occurred as opposed to being misinterpreted sights, one would expect to be able to verify their occurrences. Yet such events have never been reliably verifiable despite thousands of attempts to do so and thousands of claims to have viewed such occurrences.

We also have voluminous evidence people mistake what they believe they have witnessed. It is due to the nature of our brains which tend to fill in data that wasn't actually observed in order to make sense of sensory input.

That leaves misinterpretation of what you saw as the only reasonable explanation. When you have better evidence than your personal experience, then you might have something worth reconsidering. It has nothing to do with disbelieving your interpretation. What is disbelieved is that your interpretation was accurate.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 26th September 2008 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 26th September 2008, 09:52 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by ozziemate View Post
nah, I just want it totally clear....

There must be an assumption of good will and truth as the first premise, In judicial methodology "innocent until proven guilty" comes to mind other wise society would fail to function.
Also a presumption of sanity and reasonability until proven otherwise.

The "maybe" verdict is a classic have faith, question and keep on questioning with an open mind...IMO

In fact IMO regardless of any evidence provided and shared in a material sense there must always be open minded ness which is why we allow ourselves to question the existance of the universe at all....
...And now you're just drifting into the kind of metaphysical stuff that I have absolutely no interest in. Good night.
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