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#1 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,394
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How NOT to run a debunking site
Having two popular debunking sites post conflicting stories only gives truthers the fuel they need for the fire.
Conflicting accounts of when and where the black boxes were found abound on debunking sites. Who found the black boxes? Debunk911myths.org, along with Newsweek say Burkhammer found the black boxes.
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The Pentagon Building Performance Report puts it "nearly 300 feet" from the impact hole, which would mean it was found in the c-ring, as Kilsheimer claimed. The AP puts it, "right where the plane came into the building." To sum up, Debunk911myths.org puts it in the e ring and found by Burkhammer. PM puts it in the c ring and found by Kilsheimer. This is exactly what CIT & Co. needs to "prove" evidence was planted. AFAIK, neither PM nor debunk debunk911myth.org has cleared up with one another. |
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#2 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,353
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That can only mean one thing, two planes entered through the same hole which would explain the discrepincies in the flightpaths witnessed.
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#3 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,899
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I have learned in my experience here that the more precise and specific your post is the less you will receive any semblance of discourse.
The regulars tend to seize upon the goofier aspects of the so called Truth movement. This is likely to be left untouched, unless they chime in with a few cheap shots. |
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(RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts) |
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#4 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,244
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Red I., I gather you mean that the more you avoid facts, the better off you are. Interesting approach.
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#5 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,899
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(RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts) |
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#6 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,204
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and why should PM clear up what they posted vs what Debunk911myths has posted?
All it shows is that on a day of chaos, people will have conflicting reports and also realie when these statements were taken. The newsweek artcile was written on 9/28/2001 - 17 days after the attack. by that time, was all of the investigation done? The Pentagon report had more time to do the research, and verify the facts. |
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Back home with a new sunburn...I look like a tomato. “Life may begin at 30, but it doesn’t get real interesting until about 150.” “Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle.” |
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#7 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,204
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Back home with a new sunburn...I look like a tomato. “Life may begin at 30, but it doesn’t get real interesting until about 150.” “Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle.” |
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#8 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,899
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(RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts) |
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#9 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 5,311
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Which again shows the problem with relying solely on personal account rather than evidence.
The AP an PM account rely on a reporter asking people questions. The Performance report is backed up with physical evidence for confirmation. (something the CIT boys need to learn) As to why the people interviewed by AP and PM said what they said, only they know. As for PM and debunk911myth.org, shoot them an e-mail. |
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Fourscore and seven years ago I tapped yo mama in a log cabin! Abe Lincoln |
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#10 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,204
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stop reading so fast RI. you missed the article dates and the reason why a well researched report is more reliable than the shot gun asking of questions by reporters.
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Back home with a new sunburn...I look like a tomato. “Life may begin at 30, but it doesn’t get real interesting until about 150.” “Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle.” |
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#11 |
... and your little dog too.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,090
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And of course there's the ever popular "Take things completely out of context and pretend they mean something they don't" counter-argument technique.
If only everyone had the acumen and passion for truth that you do, maybe someday we'll figure out what actually happened on 9/11. |
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#12 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 733
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#13 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,157
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MarkyX's Haunted Bloghouse - Read my boredom |
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#14 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,116
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Which black box? There are two boxes. There are other things that look like black boxes, kind of. So unless your source is the NTSB expert, it is hearsay and if the source is the news people, it may be flawed and twisted. This is why CIT can't figure out 9/11, like RI can't, they are unable to use logic and rational thinking to piece together the event.
7 years; CIT, TLB and RI have no clue on 9/11. |
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#15 |
NWO Master Conspirator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
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There are 2 "black boxes" per plane - a CVR and an FDR.
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#16 |
... and your little dog too.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,090
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#17 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,394
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#18 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,394
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#19 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 4,785
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From reading Kilsheimer's statement, it's not clear that he's saying he was the first person to find the recorder(s). He's listing off the things that he saw, and a recorder is among them. He was talking to reporters, not making a careful statement (as evidence by his saying that he held the tail section of the plane in his hands).
I think you're trying to make a contradiction where one doesn't really exist. |
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Is there a God? Find the answer at The Official God FAQ. |
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#20 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,394
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#21 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,546
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But wait, how can to black boxes be in two places in space and time? 3 objects maybe, but 2 objects in two locations? What are the chances of that happening?
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#22 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 409
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I'm cool with discrepancies being pointed out so they can be sorted out. The key thing of interest is that an "intact seat from the plane’s cockpit with a chunk of the floor still attached" was found, but to clarify about black boxes, look in Patrick Creed's book. Sounds like the fire fighter, thought that they found the black boxes but on further examination by experts, what they found were not the black boxes. Creed gives another story which can be added and further examined
I can't update right now. I'm having problems typing since spilling some coffee on my computer but should have it fixed soon. i'm pecking away on my on screen keyboard which is very slow ![]() |
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Website: http://www.debunk911myths.org YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=debunk911myths |
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#23 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 409
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My delete key still works but can't post new info now
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Website: http://www.debunk911myths.org YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=debunk911myths |
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#24 |
Alphanumeric Anonymous Stick Man
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,510
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On the contrary. Every time I've "yelled" at you, so to speak, it has been due to the fact that you were being painfully vague and cryptic, and I was struggling in vain to convince you to make a clear, concise point. You never did.
In fact, I can't think of a time when you've ever been specific about anything. |
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http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...2b728514ea.gif "The evidence that the attacks of 9/11 were an inside job just keeps not coming in." --pomeroo |
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#25 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,394
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#26 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,204
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Not that its a huge priority at this point in time. Private sites are not obligated to keep the information "up to date'. Its up to the visitor to find the information if they feel that the wrong information is being disseminated.
Why haven't you emailed the owner of Debunk911myths and let him know of the discrepancy? Remember, many of these debunking sites are done , when the persson has time to update it. Doen'st mean that its gong to have up to date information 24/7 The best resources are always the OFFICIAL reports. |
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Back home with a new sunburn...I look like a tomato. “Life may begin at 30, but it doesn’t get real interesting until about 150.” “Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle.” |
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#27 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,394
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#28 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,394
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_______________BREAKING NEWS___________________
Debunk911myths has just caught on to this thread and removed the following...
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#29 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,204
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Uloved. its nice that you point this out, but you should have pM'ed or contacted the individuals who own those websites FIRST, and wait for a reply from them.
You are basically airing the dirty laundry, when all of htis could have been dealt with privately, and quickly, without bringing "drama" to it. PM Gravy, and be done with it. |
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Back home with a new sunburn...I look like a tomato. “Life may begin at 30, but it doesn’t get real interesting until about 150.” “Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle.” |
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#30 |
beer-swilling semiliterate
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 25,744
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IIRC, poster Kryptos runs the debunk911myths site.
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A møøse ønce bit my sister |
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#31 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,394
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Debunking sites should not post anything that supports that "official story." Remember Unsecured Coins and "Mike Rotch" (does a link to that vid still exist)? Debunkers should be a little more careful as to not make idiots out of themselves like the truthers do constantly.
Some moron truther claiming to be a pilot could write a paper and submit it to a debunking site, and that site could post it, only to have it exposed by 911flogger or whatever. |
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#32 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,127
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It's my understanding that the 2 black boxes in a plane are nowhere near each other. So what Burkhammer found was very unlikely to be both black boxes. Maybe it was one of them and another piece of equipment? That would allow both quotes to be true.
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#33 |
Master Poster
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,152
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Firefight, the most definitive account of the Pentagon I have read, describes it thusly, from page 401:
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I said lots of things in NPH that I would not say today and that I did not repeat in NPHR, where I specifically corrected at least some of the errors I had made in that earlier book, written 5 years ago. -David Ray Griffin- |
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#34 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,127
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Ah interesting, guess I was mistaken about them being in different areas of the plane.
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#35 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,204
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Again, the point IM trying to make is that if you have a problem with what one site says versus another, bring it up with the owners of those sites, instead making a drama filled thread over it here. Remember, THESE Sites are privately owned, privately updated and updated when the owners HAVE TIME. some may just abandon and could care less about the site, or dont even know what new information is out there, because its NOT THEIR TOP PRIORITY to find out if there is new information One site relied on the report from 9/28/2008 Another decided to do some basic investigation, and a final report, showed that someone else entirely found the black boxes. It happens, when you've had years of time to do research and investigate. Again, take it up with the people who own the sites. and you shouldn't care about what the conspiracy sites state or if some idniot troofer is saying this because one site says someting and one sites says another thing: BECAUSE WE HAVE four official REPORTS that debunk their insane claims to begin with. |
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Back home with a new sunburn...I look like a tomato. “Life may begin at 30, but it doesn’t get real interesting until about 150.” “Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle.” |
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#36 |
hairy farting brute
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 970
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#37 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,305
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But that section was about witnesses who sighted and/or handled aircraft debris, not about the recovery of the CVR and FDR. Your protest looks like a storm in a teacup to me. Did you let Mark know what is the "wrong information"? There's no guarantee he will see this as the thread title is not exactly illuminating. They're usually together at the rear of the plane. From the FAA regs for the FDR:
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and CVR:
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#38 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,394
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The section is irrelevant. The site, citing dead link, claims Burkhammer found the black boxes. PM says Kilsheimer found at least one. Now JamesB, citing Firefight, claims NTSB employees found them. As I said in my OP, this is exactly the kind of stuff CIT loves to dig up and use as "proof" of planted evidence.
This is not a "call out" thread. This is to show that debunkers are just as obligated to debunk faulty information in debunking sites. I hope it doesn't lead to hard feelings, but if it does, the end justifies the means. |
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#39 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,494
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If they find discrepancies, they latch onto these as proof of a cover-up. if they find none, they latch onto the "lockstep" official-story support as unnaturaly consistent and proof of a cover-up. if you start this thread, that's a sign of debunker "desparation," which is proof of cover-up. If you abandon it, then you're running scared, which means a cover-up.
You cannot change this basic principle any more than you can gravity. So, that said, I also feel this is a non-issue. Along with the rest of the plane and its passengers, the boxes were found, perhaps found again and seen again, by different people, in one or two spots, that were perhaps mis-reported by a journalist who became confused somehow. It would be neat to sort this out and put confusion to rest (in minds where that's even possible) but Arus is right. My site for example, is full of little errors I haven't the time or inspiration to go back and change. Some people can sort things out for themselves, the rest are screwed anyways. |
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#40 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,843
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All it is "proof" of is that different reporters can cover the same story and get something wrong.
the beef is not betweem PM and any debunking site. It is between PM and AP. In a recent child kidnapping in Western Canada the child was found safe. A newspaper and a television station reported extremly differing accounts of where the child was found. One said a hotel restaurant, the other a serice station and they put them in different towns.
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