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Old 1st November 2003, 12:11 AM   #1
plindboe
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How big would Noah's Ark have to be?

How big would Noah's Ark have to be, to be able to contain two kinds of all the animal species in the world, and the food in order to keep them fed for a year? I'm thinking the boat would have to be the size of Greenland or something. I posted in this forum to see if some would try to make some calculations on it. Just for fun.
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Old 1st November 2003, 12:40 AM   #2
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Ithink you would have to 1st figure out the total weight of the creatures and estimate a ratio of food weight to animal weight. If I remember correctly in one part of the bible it says two of each and in another it says something about two of each clean animal and seven of each unclean. Something to that effect anyway. Don't know which figures to use and I'm not really interested enough to research it. Maybe someone else will.

Also need someone knowledgeable in structural engineering to make sure the ark design will support the weight during bad weather.
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Old 1st November 2003, 01:56 AM   #3
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Have a look here:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/woodmorappe-review.html

The guy basically argues the number of transported beasts down to manageable proportions (the joy of exegesis! ) and has the rest transported in egg form. Pity the cryo-sleep chamber wasn't en vogue back then...

cheers
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Old 1st November 2003, 08:00 AM   #4
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The ark also would have to carry many species of termites!
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Old 1st November 2003, 08:47 AM   #5
Hamish
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You don't have to work out how big it would have to be. According to Genesis chpter 6, the ark was made of gopher wood and was 300 cubits long by 50 cubits wide by 30 cubits deep.

Since a cubit is 17.6 inches or about 45cm. this gives you a total of around 40,000 cubic metres, assuming a rather square and un-hydrodynamic arc. Alternatively, you've got three floors, totalling around 9000 square metres of floor space, plus a roof if your animals don't mind getting wet.

Somehow, you have to fit 14 of each clean and 2 of each unclean animal.

Are elephants clean or not? Anybody know? How about hippos and rhinos?

Of course you have to travel round the world collecting them in the first place. Those polar bears are quite tricky to get, sailing from the middle east to the arctic in a gopher wood ocean liner with no engine. Unless pandas, kangaroos, penguins and the like were all living in and around the middle east at this point. Of course, if you argue that this was the case then you have to accept that Noah must have sailed round dropping them all off on different continents afterwards.

The problems with the ark are just beginning. After all the creative packing and circumnavigation you've done, you need to work 24 hour shifts feeding at one end and shovelling at the other for every single animal.

Assuming you haven't been mauled by any of the vicious ones, trampled by one of the heavy ones or suffered a nervous breakdown by this point.

And while we're on the subject, just how hard would it have to rain to cover all land masses on the planet in 40 days? And where did all the water go?

And why do I care anyway?
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Old 1st November 2003, 09:16 AM   #6
3-toed-sloth
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Re: How big would Noah's Ark have to be?

Quote:
Originally posted by plindboe
How big would Noah's Ark have to be, to be able to contain two kinds of all the animal species in the world, and the food in order to keep them fed for a year? I'm thinking the boat would have to be the size of Greenland or something. I posted in this forum to see if some would try to make some calculations on it. Just for fun.
I'm think you could slap together an ark the size of England that would probably be big enough. Of course it would take quite a lot of materials to make an ark that big. Noah must have been a very fast worker to be able to assemble such a vessel in such a short time.

Wait, I've got it! God must have given Noah an incredible shrinking ray, that way all of the life forms could be shrunk down to a couple of hundred nanometers each. That would have solved everything.

Maybe Noah was into homeopathy. He could have made dilutions of creatures and stored their essence as water memory, and then he could just reconstitute the organisms by further diluting his dilutions.

Clearly Noah was thinking outside of the box
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Old 1st November 2003, 02:36 PM   #7
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Noah into homeopathy? LOL. That was good.
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Old 1st November 2003, 03:11 PM   #8
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There's an excellent analysis of this subject in the book Telling Lies For God, Professor Ian Plimer.

Basically, the 3 million plus species would not have fitted in the ark of dimensions as described in a pink fit. Using the dimensions given, they had an allocated space of less than a coffee-cup per pair of animals, not counting their food and water requirements. And there were a lot of other requirements for "a successful cruise" that make this just a laff-a-minute story.
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Old 1st November 2003, 04:25 PM   #9
TillEulenspiegel
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Hamish :"Are elephants clean or not? Anybody know? How about hippos and rhinos?"

No, but remember that there was no coast guard so you can dump the doo-doo over the side.
The problem of supplying that mana for 40 days -n- 40 nights however is a relm for a rabbi or priest cuz I'm an expert in doo-doo and not theology.
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Old 1st November 2003, 05:40 PM   #10
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Hammish---e-mail your post to Oral Roberts University!
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Old 1st November 2003, 06:37 PM   #11
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Here's an alternative wording of the above question:
"How large a biosphere is needed to sustain all of Earth's biodiversity for the period of 40 days?"

To make an informed guess, I'd have to say a biosphere about the size of the Earth. After all, there are millions of species of animals living today, and all of those would need to eat, breathe and so forth. (Nobody ever seems to care about saving the plants from the flood.)

To get around this, fundamantalists claim that Noah didn't actually load representatives of every single species onto the ark. Instead, there were only "kinds", which afterwards rapidly microevolved into modern species. These "kinds" have never been defined in any meaningful way, so it's basically impossible to name the amount of animals that need to be housed on the ark.

An example: Are "rabbits" a kind? That's a couple dozen species. Maybe "rabbits and hares" are a kind - over fifty species. If all lagomorphs are a single kind, you have more than 80 species under that umbrella. And of course, there's no need for kinds to conform to any scientific taxonomy.

So you can see the problem.

(Personally, I find speculating about the literal truth of biblical stories oddly fascinating. It's like discussing the physiology of grandma-swallowing wolves.)
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Old 1st November 2003, 06:42 PM   #12
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Something a lot of you seem to be missing is that insects are not animals this reduces you carrying buden somewhat. Still I want to know what Noah did with all the lemmings born during the vogage.
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Old 1st November 2003, 08:11 PM   #13
T'ai Chi
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For the fundamentalist believers, it is a pertinent question.

For those who understand that the stories are to be interpreted metaphorically, etc., it isn't really a big deal as I understand.
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Old 1st November 2003, 08:13 PM   #14
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Oh hell... weren't there in-laws along.

Talk about a rough cruise.

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Old 1st November 2003, 08:24 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hamish
And while we're on the subject, just how hard would it have to rain to cover all land masses on the planet in 40 days?
29000ft/40days/24hours * 12inches/ft = 362 inches per hour

hmm, that sound's quite reasonable.
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Old 1st November 2003, 09:00 PM   #16
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Haven't you guys ever heard of miracles?

No, don't ask why the miracle happened to be that he could get all those animals in the boat instead of the miracle being that he didn't need to do so. That's just being picky.
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Old 1st November 2003, 10:04 PM   #17
TillEulenspiegel
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Quote:
Originally posted by T'ai Chi
For the fundamentalist believers, it is a pertinent question.

For those who understand that the stories are to be interpreted metaphorically, etc., it isn't really a big deal as I understand.
Figures some ungodly asian creature would say somthing like that

It is in the bable ... er bible and god said it . Thats good enuf fer me

( damn yellow hoards)
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Old 1st November 2003, 10:57 PM   #18
T'ai Chi
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I said

Quote:

For the fundamentalist believers, it is a pertinent question.

For those who understand that the stories are to be interpreted metaphorically, etc., it isn't really a big deal as I understand.


then you said:

Quote:
Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel

Figures some ungodly asian creature would say somthing like that

It is in the bable ... er bible and god said it . Thats good enuf fer me

( damn yellow hoards)
er...yeah...um...yeah..Billy??...ummm...yeah.. OK..
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Old 1st November 2003, 11:03 PM   #19
TillEulenspiegel
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Dude It's a JOKE read my last post on the thread ...the subject is silly =)
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Old 2nd November 2003, 03:03 AM   #20
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Well, if you look at fuddie sites, they explain that you only need one "kind" of animal on the ark.

So there is one "cow" kind, one "dog" kind, etc.

The problem comes when you add "ant" kinds or "beetle" kinds.

If there was one "ant" kind on the ark, that would mean that more than 1 species of ant evolved PER YEAR since the ark landed.

If there was one "beetle" kind on the ark, that would mean that more than 50 species of beetle evolved PER YEAR since the ark landed.

In fact, beetles should be evolving so fast that we could put a couple in an aquarium and WATCH THEM EVOLVE into a new species.
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Old 2nd November 2003, 10:37 AM   #21
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Never get tired of reading these Noah's ark threads. There's also some great sites out there on this stuff.

But until now I don't think anybody has found the homeopathy tie in. 3-toed-sloth is breaking new ground and you heard it first in the JREF forum.
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Old 2nd November 2003, 04:58 PM   #22
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DangerousBeliefs---I sat outside once, staring at a dandelion , to see if I could see *it* vgrow. i decided to do this when i woke up one morning to discover a dandelion grew about a foot overnight. i made some calculatrions and determined I just might be able to watch it grow.

If I was the owner, or lived near a pumpkin patch, I would try to watch a pumpkin grow. The world' s largest pumpkin this year grew by about 40 pounds per day, during part of the growing time, the newspaper article said. It weighed about 12-1300 pounds. It grew this in one season.

To the believers on board: Do you really believe in your heart, that the flood account was some metaphor? Then how about the whole Adam-Eve-snake-sin-fall of man-death-having to 'toil our entire lives' thingy a metaphor also? The seven-day creation account a metaphor also? Jonah and the whale? Moses getting the ten commandments? Jesus walking on water? Ressurecting? Ascending?....Where does it stop?
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Old 3rd November 2003, 06:42 AM   #23
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It's obvious, Noah's Ark had to be exactly as large as it was. God wouldn't have had Noah make an ark that was too small now would he?
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Old 3rd November 2003, 07:05 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs
Well, if you look at fuddie sites, they explain that you only need one "kind" of animal on the ark.

So there is one "cow" kind, one "dog" kind, etc.

The problem comes when you add "ant" kinds or "beetle" kinds.

If there was one "ant" kind on the ark, that would mean that more than 1 species of ant evolved PER YEAR since the ark landed.

If there was one "beetle" kind on the ark, that would mean that more than 50 species of beetle evolved PER YEAR since the ark landed.

In fact, beetles should be evolving so fast that we could put a couple in an aquarium and WATCH THEM EVOLVE into a new species.
This is a point few creationists consider.
Imagine there was only "one" nematode kind on the ark. Then in the last 4000 years, nematodes have had to evolve at a rate of two new species every single day in order to reach the number of currently known species.

One other point - Noah and the animals were not on the ark for 40 days and nights - that was only how long it rained for.
If I remember correctly, the bible indicates they were on the ark for something approaching a whole year!.
Kinda makes fodder for the "cow kind" of animals a problem, no?
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Old 3rd November 2003, 08:26 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by lamme

If I was the owner, or lived near a pumpkin patch, I would try to watch a pumpkin grow. The world' s largest pumpkin this year grew by about 40 pounds per day, during part of the growing time, the newspaper article said. It weighed about 12-1300 pounds. It grew this in one season.
Quick calculation. The pumpkin finishes off at 1 metre across. At this point, gaining 40lb per day (18.2 kg) the radius is increasing by about 5mm over 24 hours. Depending on the size of the pumpkin during it's growth spurt, you might get 10mm increase in radius per 24 hours. If you can't see a dandelion growing at 30cm in 12 hours, you won't see the change in size of the pumpkin. It works out at a maximum of 7 microns (micrometres) per minute. That's about the breadth of a human hair over 10 minutes.

Oh dear, I just spent 10 minutes working out pumpkin growth rates! Still, I suppose I got to do a bit of maths practice.
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Old 3rd November 2003, 08:40 AM   #26
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But surely, fundamental belief in Noah's Ark/The Flood and "Evilution" are not compatible. God made every species--everything as you see it today was made that way God, is what we always hear. Therefore, the Ark had to contain one of every species. Don't ya love how the Fundies pull out evolution to get around the logistical problems of the Ark? Sorry, folks, you can't have it both ways.
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Old 3rd November 2003, 06:05 PM   #27
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geni "Something a lot of you seem to be missing is that insects are not animals this reduces you carrying buden somewhat. Still I want to know what Noah did with all the lemmings born during the vogage."





geni, what are we going to do with you? Insects ARE animals.
Coral and sea sponges are animals too.
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Old 4th November 2003, 03:52 AM   #28
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Take the mathematicians solution:

Build the ark. Then define the inside as outside and vice versa. Voila! All beast are already inside. No moving needed...

Of course small problems remain... Let it rain where formerly was the inside? Simple... It's called shower! Let it run for 40 days. Killing all the nasty people off? Again simple... Laughing all to death about Noah's seastories....
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Old 4th November 2003, 04:48 AM   #29
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I don't have links handy, but are we all familiar with the human population calculations that work out to a current population of 6 billion, but when extrapolated backwords, you wind up with a world population of 1200 at the time of the Exodus?
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Old 4th November 2003, 05:46 AM   #30
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flood=biblical lie

Ask the Babylonians. It's their myth.
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Old 4th November 2003, 06:33 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
I don't have links handy, but are we all familiar with the human population calculations that work out to a current population of 6 billion, but when extrapolated backwords, you wind up with a world population of 1200 at the time of the Exodus?
Correct.

The only problem is that we have to ignore the fact that real-world populations don't follow strict mathematical formulas... that there are other factors like predation, available resources, disease, genetic factors, technology, war, etc.

I guess we also have to ignore all the historical evidence of populations elsewhere in the world and the archeological evidence that humanity orginated somewhere besides the Middle Eastern area.

Other than that (and a few more trivial problems)... you go fuddies!
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Old 4th November 2003, 10:59 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Psi Baba
But surely, fundamental belief in Noah's Ark/The Flood and "Evilution" are not compatible. God made every species--everything as you see it today was made that way God, is what we always hear. Therefore, the Ark had to contain one of every species. Don't ya love how the Fundies pull out evolution to get around the logistical problems of the Ark? Sorry, folks, you can't have it both ways.
But they continually try to have it every way. First off, they refuse to acknowledge our definition of species. "The species alive today are just variations of the original kind/species, in the way that beagles and great danes are both the same species of "dog" blah blah...". Therefore there were only several "hundred" core kinds, (or baramins as they call them, on the ark).

But one thing they cannot explain is how there has been essentially no natural variation in species over the last 2000 years or so.

We are asked to believe that 4000 years ago a few "kinds" emerged from the ark (not forgetting the baby dinosaurs that hatched out on board). These all underwent a massive natural variation boom that yielded millions of different types of creatures, but that this explosive phase lasted only 1000 years or so (since over the last 2-3000 years since accurate records have been kept, paradoxically no new varieties have been recorded as developing).

In fact, following on from the "beetle kind" post, there would have been 100 new "species" per year "evolving" from 4000 BC to say 2500BC, and then............... nothing! No new scarab varieties, no new rhino beetles,......zilch.

Some useful sites on the creation pseudoscience of baraminology:
http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/37/37_2/baraminology.htm
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-crs/baraminology.html
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Old 4th November 2003, 11:40 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by T'ai Chi
For the fundamentalist believers, it is a pertinent question.

For those who understand that the stories are to be interpreted metaphorically, etc., it isn't really a big deal as I understand.
What exactly is it a metaphor for? I thought about this and can't figure out what you mean. I agree that many old stories, including bible stories are symbolic, allegorical, etc. in nature but I can't think of what this story would stand for in biblical terms. If we were searching for some scientific metaphor, maybe we could go with the survival of diverse Earth peoples following some natural catastrophe, i.e., Ice Age or something. Tell me what you are thinking of, please, if you are thinking of something and not just shooting from the hip with a glib response.
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Old 7th November 2003, 06:26 PM   #34
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In those days, there were only a dozen or so kinds of animals. Many years after the Flood, space men brought millions more to Earth.

By the way, what happed to the plants that couldn't swim? I don't recall God saying anything about bringing two (or 7) of each plant aboard (imagine the pots needed to keep a sequoia happy).

And after the Flood began a second frenzy of incest?
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Old 7th November 2003, 06:37 PM   #35
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Old 8th November 2003, 03:43 PM   #36
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Noah took 2 of each animal's DNA. This was brought onto a spaceship made of cypress wood and orbited for 40 days.

When the Lord speaks to me on weekends, my faith is real and He shows me, not telling me but learning what I Know by His Design.
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Old 8th November 2003, 08:21 PM   #37
davefoc
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American,
I think the story is 40 days of rain followed by a year of floating around. What did God tell you about the floating around time?

Also, if you wouldn't mind, when the Lord speaks to you this weekend could you ask him about the issue of how the plants survived that couldn't swim that pupdog brought up? Did Noah run around collecting plant DNA too or was there some other mechanism that was used to save the plant species.

I don't want to offend you here, American, but I am frankly just a little skeptical of your story. I am not sure that cypress would be a very good wood to make a spaceship out of.
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Old 8th November 2003, 09:24 PM   #38
roger
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Well, perhaps it was monterey cypress, which is a bit more stable than spanish cypress.
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Old 10th November 2003, 12:33 AM   #39
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Thanks, for clearing up the issue on the kind of cypress, Roger. Of course, American's story is completely plausible now.
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Old 10th November 2003, 12:53 AM   #40
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Forget the size of the ark, can anyone figure out how much rain would have to fall (& where the water came from) in order to flood the entire surface of earth in forty days & nights. (It can rain here for months on end sometimes & the basement doesn't even flood).
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