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Tags war crime charges , winston churchill , World War II history

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Old 30th November 2017, 06:09 AM   #681
HansMustermann
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To be honest, I never thought that the British are particularly guilty of marketing themselves. The whole self-deprecating British sense of humour doesn't really lend itself to some 'rah rah rah, we're number one' kind of marketing. If anything, the British tend to over-acknowledge everyone else, well, at least when you compare them to the USA or especially France.

I mean, even during WW1, the Americans made Pershing just about a national hero -- in spite of being just marginally less incompetent than the likes of the three stooges that were Potiorek, Cadorna and von Hötzendorf -- while in the UK PM David Lloyd George is crediting America almost on every other page of his memoirs, while not giving much credit to Haig and the other British generals. (And mind you, "not giving much credit" is grossly understating it, even by the standards of the British fine art of understatement.)


If anything, after WW2, I find it was France that pissed off everyone else by repeatedly and conspicuously forgetting to mention ANY help from the rest of the world. I mean, when the Allies let Petain enter Paris first after the Germans retreated, his speech said literally that Paris liberated herself, with the help of... the rest of France. No mention of the American and British armies that had gotten him there, the British and American fleets that made the landing possible, etc

In case anyone didn't know when and WHY the whole "the French surrender" meme got started. Yeah, surrendering is understandable there, but when you pretend to have then won the war singlehandedly, you're kinda just begging to have the piss taken out of you.
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Old 30th November 2017, 07:28 AM   #682
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Interestingly, there are six or so banned (now) people posting in just the first two pages.....
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Old 30th November 2017, 09:14 AM   #683
Henri McPhee
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
If anything, after WW2, I find it was France that pissed off everyone else by repeatedly and conspicuously forgetting to mention ANY help from the rest of the world. I mean, when the Allies let Petain enter Paris first after the Germans retreated, his speech said literally that Paris liberated herself, with the help of... the rest of France. No mention of the American and British armies that had gotten him there, the British and American fleets that made the landing possible, etc
I thought it was de Gaulle who entered Paris first in the Second World War in 1944 with the Free French troops. I may be wrong about that. General Juin was a good French General at that time.

Petain was in danger of being executed as a collaborator, like Laval, but he was eventually exiled to an island off France as a so-called First World War hero. I agree this is not on topic with regard to Churchill as an accused war criminal.

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Old 30th November 2017, 09:33 AM   #684
HansMustermann
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Ugh, brain-fart on my part. Yeah, de Gaule, obviously.
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Old 1st December 2017, 05:30 PM   #685
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Hate to do this, but it wasn't de Gaule either, Hans had it - de Gaulle!!!
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Old 1st December 2017, 07:14 PM   #686
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Nah, I didn't have it. I do have this problem -- and I'm sure I bored everyone with mentioning it a couple of times a year -- where pretty much a random word comes out instead of what I was trying to say. I end up proof-reading and correcting a lot of messages to get rid of that. Just the other week I wrote "away and beyond the call of duty" instead of above and beyond, for example.

Ah well...
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Old 2nd December 2017, 01:18 PM   #687
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Nah, I didn't have it. I do have this problem -- and I'm sure I bored everyone with mentioning it a couple of times a year -- where pretty much a random word comes out instead of what I was trying to say. I end up proof-reading and correcting a lot of messages to get rid of that. Just the other week I wrote "away and beyond the call of duty" instead of above and beyond, for example.

Ah well...
I like the last one!!!!!!
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Old 4th December 2017, 07:31 AM   #688
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There is an interesting article on the internet about the French General Juin during the second world war which proves Churchill did not win the war on his own. Neither does it prove Churchill was a war criminal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphonse_Juin
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Old 4th December 2017, 07:58 AM   #689
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What are you on about now?
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Old 4th December 2017, 08:05 AM   #690
Henri McPhee
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This thread is about Winston Churchill supposedly being a war criminal and winning the Second World War by writing books and having films made about him. I am just suggesting that is not the pure unadulterated historical truth you plonker
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Old 4th December 2017, 08:25 AM   #691
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As I said before, no one, not even Winston himself, thinks he won the war on his own.
I have no idea where you get that idea from?

And what posting the biog of a French general has to do with it.
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Old 4th December 2017, 08:55 AM   #692
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Wait, this is a thread debunking the idea that Winston Churchill was Superman?

Who ever thought Churchill won the war on his own? That doesn't even make sense.
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Old 4th December 2017, 09:08 AM   #693
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Churchill once said that Chamberlain had a choice between war and dishonour and he chose dishonour. That's bullcrap.
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Old 4th December 2017, 09:36 AM   #694
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OK.
Winston said lots of nonsense things ("soft underbelly" anyone?).
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Old 4th December 2017, 03:06 PM   #695
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
This thread is about Winston Churchill supposedly being a war criminal and winning the Second World War by writing books and having films made about him. I am just suggesting that is not the pure unadulterated historical truth you plonker

Absolutely, Winston Churchill did win the war all by himself and he did it by writing books and having films made about him.

That is how the war was really won.

All of this Stalingrad nonsense is just butthurt tankies.
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Old 4th December 2017, 08:14 PM   #696
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Churchill once said that Chamberlain had a choice between war and dishonour and he chose dishonour. That's bullcrap.
"You were given the choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor and you will have war. That's bullcrap”

Churchill was quite the wordsmith.
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Old 28th December 2017, 03:22 AM   #697
Henri McPhee
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I don't think Churchill was a war criminal but these recent films about him are not the pure unadulterated truth.
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Old 28th December 2017, 04:44 AM   #698
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I don't think Churchill was a war criminal but these recent films about him are not the pure unadulterated truth.
That's not contentious.

There is a reason why people dismiss "the Hollywood treatment of history"
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Old 28th December 2017, 06:03 AM   #699
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
That's not contentious.

There is a reason why people dismiss "the Hollywood treatment of history"
I don't see why people do that. Works of art are not there to treat history a specific way. There isn't anything to dismiss. It can be viewed as it's own thing.
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Old 28th December 2017, 10:06 AM   #700
Henri McPhee
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What about FACTS and the historical truth then? Fiction is not reality.
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Old 28th December 2017, 09:07 PM   #701
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't see why people do that. Works of art are not there to treat history a specific way. There isn't anything to dismiss. It can be viewed as it's own thing.
You are correct, however the, "based on a true story" stichk has been known to blur the line, as have deliberate propaganda efforts.
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Old 29th December 2017, 01:46 AM   #702
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At least Mondial had a Christmas break now he has someone bumping threads for him
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Old 31st December 2017, 06:07 AM   #703
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The latest movie about Winston Churchill has Gary Oldman in the lead role -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtJ60u7SUSw
It looks like a propaganda effort to try and polish up his badly tarnished image as more and more people discover what a criminal he really was -
https://crimesofbritain.com/2016/09/...ton-churchill/
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10510
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2017/11...-david-irving/
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Old 31st December 2017, 09:25 AM   #704
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Awww, the little neo-nazi crowd is upset that their whataboutisms aren't taking.
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Old 25th January 2018, 09:56 AM   #705
Henri McPhee
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There doesn't seem to be any mention of Churchill as a war criminal in this latest film about him, where an actor has won some kind of Oscar. There is some silly line in the film where Churchill tells Chamberlain you can't talk to a tiger, which Chamberlain was well aware about.
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Old 26th January 2018, 07:21 AM   #706
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
The latest movie about Winston Churchill has Gary Oldman in the lead role -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtJ60u7SUSw
It looks like a propaganda effort to try and polish up his badly tarnished image as more and more people discover what a criminal he really was -
https://crimesofbritain.com/2016/09/...ton-churchill/
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10510
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2017/11...-david-irving/
Hang on, I don't want to click any of those links since I refuse to increase traffic to alt-right or neo-Nazi websites (seems to be your go to thing) but are you really linking to something about David Irving and expecting anyone to give it the time of day? The Lipstadt trial proved he was at best a very poor historian, at worse a fabricator of stories to give succour to the Nazis and to the person of Hitler in particular. If even one of your sources use his name in a contest about understanding history, you have already lost.
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Old 29th January 2018, 02:47 PM   #707
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Awww, the little neo-nazi crowd is upset that their whataboutisms aren't taking.
"The Darkest Hour" has quite a bit to criticize as far as historical accuracy goes,
but not for the reasons the Neo Nazis are giving.....

Oldman is brilliant,but other then that it's a pretty medicore film...
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Old 29th January 2018, 02:49 PM   #708
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
"You were given the choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor and you will have war. That's bullcrap”

Churchill was quite the wordsmith.
And interesting how McPhee misquoted Churchill....

And Churchill was right in this instance....
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Old 30th January 2018, 11:23 PM   #709
Henri McPhee
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This is what Churchill is supposed to have said to Chamberlain from the internet:

Quote:
“You were given the choice between war and dishonour. You chose dishonour, and you will have war.' - To Neville Chamberlain”

― Winston S. Churchill
There was a documentary from 2011 on the BBC yesterday by Andrew Marr called the Making of Britain, which mentioned Chamberlain and Churchill and that Churchill would have intervened in the Spanish civil war. With what? It mentioned that Baldwin described Churchill as lacking in wisdom and judgment, which I don't think applied to Chamberlain. It also mentioned that Baldwin was mainly concerned at the time with the Duke of Windsor being pro-German. Churchill took the political credit for Spitfires and radar, and our Secret Service. Chamberlain was well aware that war was inevitable.
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