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Old 10th December 2008, 02:00 PM   #1
Demigorgon
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The new dissent on AGW

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...0-274616db87e6

Could we just separate the politics and have an actual skeptical look at it?
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Old 10th December 2008, 02:14 PM   #2
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Define 'skeptical look'.

For example, I would find it useful to consider who wrote it, their expertise on the subject and their agenda. Politics is going to be an integral part of that; especially in this instance, because we are talking about an article on the US Senate website.
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Old 10th December 2008, 03:01 PM   #3
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I guess we can do the same thing with the similar list from the Heartland Institute, where many of the members either weren't climate scientists, or didn't realize they were on the list until contacted by someone else.

That tactic is getting tiresome.
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Old 10th December 2008, 03:57 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Demigorgon View Post
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...0-274616db87e6

Could we just separate the politics and have an actual skeptical look at it?
Given the positions of Reid, Boxer, Pelosi...Nope.
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Old 10th December 2008, 04:13 PM   #5
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Ok, I’ll bite. The skeptic in me immediately asks why we would discuss a list of names rather then the papers published by the people on that list. Surly any valuable insight these people have is better reflected in the literature then their out of context quotes.
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Old 10th December 2008, 04:19 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Demigorgon View Post
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...0-274616db87e6

Could we just separate the politics and have an actual skeptical look at it?
Better yet, couldn't we wait until the Minority Report is released? That'll be "this week" apparently.
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Old 10th December 2008, 04:30 PM   #7
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Ah, what the heck ...

(this should really be on the Politics Forum; posting this so shortly before the report comes out is a very political act.)

The "400 scientists who spoke out in 2007" has been shot away already - weathermen, economists, people who objected to being included when they heard about it, the usual stuff. Another 250 of the same won't change a thing.

The conference at Poznan won't "face a serious challenge" because it's a diplomatic conference, not a scientific one. Nobody gives a toss about a US Senate Committee Minority Report, frankly. Governments in the wider world have their own scientific advisers and institutions to consult, and are well aware of the oddball nature of some US Senators. Inhofe being a prime example.

No doubt this will bounce around the echo-chamber like Gabriel's Last Trump but it signifies nothing.
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Old 10th December 2008, 07:49 PM   #8
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How far along is Al Gore's 10 years to save the planet clock? Let me be the first to ask - could Al be wrong? Anything is possible, right?
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Old 10th December 2008, 08:29 PM   #9
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Probably best to wait for the complete report. There does seem to be some damning statements from some fairly competent individuals but we've seen people like this taken out of context before.
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Old 11th December 2008, 02:33 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Demigorgon View Post
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...0-274616db87e6

Could we just separate the politics and have an actual skeptical look at it?
Is he sure of those numbers? Because many of the "dissenting" scientists on the first effort he referred to were outraged to be included on his list. The list was created purely on the basis of what the author thought their research or public statements said about global warming.
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Old 11th December 2008, 04:00 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Demigorgon View Post
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...0-274616db87e6

Could we just separate the politics and have an actual skeptical look at it?
Sure, we can, and should be, sceptical about anything written by serial liar Marc Morano.

You cite Morano and suggest we separate the politics? Don't you see a problem with that?

Last edited by TrueSceptic; 11th December 2008 at 04:06 AM. Reason: Remove "proven"
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Old 11th December 2008, 04:04 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by kallsop View Post
How far along is Al Gore's 10 years to save the planet clock? Let me be the first to ask - could Al be wrong? Anything is possible, right?
What is it with Al Gore? Why are you obsessed with him?
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Old 11th December 2008, 04:12 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by kallsop View Post
How far along is Al Gore's 10 years to save the planet clock? Let me be the first to ask - could Al be wrong? Anything is possible, right?
I would bet that if Al Gore was proven wrong and the planet was NOT on the slippery slope into heat-death, Al Gore would be the first to cheer that circumstance.

However, agree with him or not, he does have an impressive array of stats on his side...
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Old 11th December 2008, 07:50 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by kallsop View Post
How far along is Al Gore's 10 years to save the planet clock? Let me be the first to ask - could Al be wrong? Anything is possible, right?
Look, I am aware that Al Gore's manly voice and full strong beard get many on the right wing worked up. And I am aware that they sublimate their attraction by pretending their focus is on what he's saying, rather than the hypnotic attraction his voice holds.

But can you please take the crush to the appropriate forum? We're discussing science here. I'm sure many in the Forum Community will be happy to help you with your relationship issues.
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Old 11th December 2008, 07:54 AM   #15
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Oh and P.S.



Yeah, half of all warming is due to sun. Yeaaaaah. Because that graph tracks with global temperature. Also, I have a cheap bridge in Brooklyn, limited time offer, just contact me with your bank account number.
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Old 11th December 2008, 09:30 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by GreyICE View Post
Oh and P.S.



Yeah, half of all warming is due to sun. Yeaaaaah. Because that graph tracks with global temperature. Also, I have a cheap bridge in Brooklyn, limited time offer, just contact me with your bank account number.
Hmm...so little graph and a bit of Warmer innuendo negate the published, peer reviewed work of several serious and well respected solar scientists (Solanksi, for one)? Yeah right.

Would you care to extend that graph of solar activity back 1000 years? Please include magnetic and other solar effects, instead of just irradiance, so we can be sure that the representation is accurate.

Show us a view of solar activity extended both in time and scope, so that any and all skepticism regarding this issue is put to rest. I am certain that your certainty on solar not being a factor in the Earth's warming is so certain that you will certainly have no trouble supporting your position.

Or will you?
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Old 11th December 2008, 09:47 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by mhaze View Post
Hmm...so little graph and a bit of Warmer innuendo negate the published, peer reviewed work of several serious and well respected solar scientists (Solanksi, for one)? Yeah right.

Would you care to extend that graph of solar activity back 1000 years? Please include magnetic and other solar effects, instead of just irradiance, so we can be sure that the representation is accurate.

Show us a view of solar activity extended both in time and scope, so that any and all skepticism regarding this issue is put to rest. I am certain that your certainty on solar not being a factor in the Earth's warming is so certain that you will certainly have no trouble supporting your position.

Or will you?

Remember folks, we can't extend global temperature observations back any length of time past direct observation because MHaze doesn't think those are accurate, but he happily thinks our direct solar observations can be extended backwards using similar methods.

Hey MHaze, are you now saying that all temperature observations extended backwards are valid? It would be a 180 on your previous position, so it's amusing that you claim this (and FYI, I haven't bothered to go on your latest wild goose chase, so I have no idea what egg is at the end of it).






Cause and effect, people. Obviously.
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Old 11th December 2008, 10:04 AM   #18
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I think it's nice to compare the same (roughly) stretch of time.

The orange line is the monthly global temperature anomaly


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Old 11th December 2008, 02:28 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by GreyICE View Post

Remember folks, we can't extend global temperature observations back any length of time past direct observation because MHaze doesn't think those are accurate, but he happily thinks our direct solar observations can be extended backwards using similar methods.

Hey MHaze, are you now saying that all temperature observations extended backwards are valid? It would be a 180 on your previous position, so it's amusing that you claim this (and FYI, I haven't bothered to go on your latest wild goose chase, so I have no idea what egg is at the end of it).

Cause and effect, people. Obviously.
Lay off the silliness. I've only pointed out that a graph of solar activity for 30 years is a futile exercise. Solanski: "during the last 1150 years the sun was never as active as during the last 60 years".

Draw your own conclusions, ..... but draw conclusions from 30 years of data at your own risk.

Last edited by mhaze; 11th December 2008 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 11th December 2008, 02:47 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by mhaze View Post
Lay off the silliness. I've only pointed out that a graph of solar activity for 30 years is a futile exercise.

Solanski: "during the last 1150 years the sun was never as active as during the last 60 years".

Draw your own conclusions, ..... but draw conclusions from 30 years of data at your own risk.
What's the risk? The risk of making you look totally off-base?
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Old 11th December 2008, 02:58 PM   #21
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Anything on the newly updated U.S. Senate Minority Report "set for release this week"? There's not much of the week left.
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Old 11th December 2008, 03:03 PM   #22
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This quote is actually insane :

Quote:
“The IPCC has actually become a closed circuit; it doesn’t listen to others. It doesn’t have open minds… ” - Indian geologist Dr. Arun D. Ahluwalia at Punjab University and a board member of the UN-supported International Year of the Planet
The IPCC only listens to others. It does no research of its own but collates research published by scientists and institutions across the world.
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Old 11th December 2008, 03:14 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Zep View Post
I would bet that if Al Gore was proven wrong and the planet was NOT on the slippery slope into heat-death, Al Gore would be the first to cheer that circumstance.

However, agree with him or not, he does have an impressive array of stats on his side...
I agree that it's hard not to be impressed by a 64 inch waist and the largest facial surface area in post-war politics.
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Old 11th December 2008, 05:45 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by plumjam View Post
I agree that it's hard not to be impressed by a 64 inch waist and the largest facial surface area in post-war politics.
Yep. The albedo affect of that one body must be huge (for kallsop, the libido affect is obviously huge too).

Last edited by TrueSceptic; 11th December 2008 at 05:45 PM. Reason: of, not from
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Old 11th December 2008, 05:47 PM   #25
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I think this is the full report.

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...3-c6e8faf14e84
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Old 11th December 2008, 05:51 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
This quote is actually insane :



The IPCC only listens to others. It does no research of its own but collates research published by scientists and institutions across the world.
We know that Morano is a serial liar (can you imagine him surviving even in our rubbish system), but it will be fun to examine his claims, one by one, won't it?
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Old 11th December 2008, 06:35 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by TrueSceptic View Post
We know that Morano is a serial liar (can you imagine him surviving even in our rubbish system), but it will be fun to examine his claims, one by one, won't it?
DogB has kindly provided the link to the "U.S. Senate Environment and Public Works Committee Minority Staff Report (Inhofe)". Whether Inhofe is the minority will have to wait another day (or later today on this side of the pond).
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Old 11th December 2008, 08:20 PM   #28
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Inhofe leads the (current) minority party, Republicans members on the committee.
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Old 12th December 2008, 04:20 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Demigorgon View Post
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...0-274616db87e6

Could we just separate the politics and have an actual skeptical look at it?
Take "Louis Hissink M.Sc. M.A.I.G., Editor AIG News and Consulting Geologist, Perth, Western Australia; "

A bigger loony would be harder to find. Eccentric is far too kind. Morano just added up a list of names, with no regard what so ever for actually knowing what he was actually putting in that list.

Google some of the sayings of Louis. He flies in the face of just about every modern piece of science, for him the good old says ended with Newton.
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Old 12th December 2008, 04:37 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Demigorgon View Post
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...0-274616db87e6

Could we just separate the politics and have an actual skeptical look at it?
Ernst-Georg Beck, Dipl. Biol., Biologist, Merian-Schule Freiburg, Germany

Science teacher, with a Diploma in Biology. What does it take to be an "international scientist"? Just that you live overseas. I would have thought at least a degree in science myself.
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Old 12th December 2008, 04:38 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Take "Louis Hissink M.Sc. M.A.I.G., Editor AIG News and Consulting Geologist, Perth, Western Australia; "

A bigger loony would be harder to find. Eccentric is far too kind. Morano just added up a list of names, with no regard what so ever for actually knowing what he was actually putting in that list.

Google some of the sayings of Louis. He flies in the face of just about every modern piece of science, for him the good old says ended with Newton.
Ah, Louis Hissink. So wacky that he's beyond parody. Honestly, whatever anyone might imagine as absurd beyond belief will have been topped by Louis already.

How does someone like that get an MSc?
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Old 12th December 2008, 04:40 AM   #32
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Zbigniew Jaworowski, PhD, physicist, Chairman

His science is so bad, he has to have it published in Lyndon Larouche outlets.
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Old 12th December 2008, 04:42 AM   #33
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John McLean, Climate Data Analyst, computer scientist,

He lives overseas, (in the same country I do) so I guess that makes him international. He has no more credentials to claim to be a "Climate Data Analyst" than I have.
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Old 12th December 2008, 05:45 AM   #34
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There are many Phds who are not scientists, economists, etc. But the IPCC has them too in it's reports? That's right, they report on the things they know about, no political scientists are doing research on the science on AGW, but contributing to such matters as the expected impacts of climate change on society.
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Old 12th December 2008, 08:51 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by GreyICE View Post
Hmmm, is it just me, or do these two graphs indeed look like cause and effect (without the irony, I mean)? The first looks a lot like a derivative of the second, no?

You know like as if you would put these two things in a graph:
1.) The energy you put in a water kettle (which would be a horizontal line)
2.) The temperature in the kettle (which would be the ascending one)

They even seem to have the peaks and dips in the same place (like the peaks in '80 and '90 for example)
Obviously this in itself doesn't mean or proof anything, I just wanted to wisecrack a little. (And I thought the possible correlation of the two was dismissed a little too easily)

Sorry for just "driving by", I've been following these AGW threads for a while (I had a lengthy discussion about modelling climate a while back) but more for the education of myself.

FR

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Old 12th December 2008, 09:24 AM   #36
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Evidences that coal does not contribute to global warming:

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Old 12th December 2008, 10:11 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Evidences that coal does not contribute to global warming:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...billboard2.jpg
Shouldn't that have "FAIL" stamped on it ?

http://failblog.org/
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Old 12th December 2008, 10:19 AM   #38
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Page 2, halfway down, "Al Gore".

Search for "Al Gore" : 57 results.

These guys really do have the hots for that hunk.
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God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
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Old 12th December 2008, 10:24 AM   #39
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Old 12th December 2008, 10:31 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by force_redo View Post
Hmmm, is it just me, or do these two graphs indeed look like cause and effect (without the irony, I mean)? The first looks a lot like a derivative of the second, no?

You know like as if you would put these two things in a graph:
1.) The energy you put in a water kettle (which would be a horizontal line)
2.) The temperature in the kettle (which would be the ascending one)
Ask yourself why the kettle only got turned on in 1975. Sunspot cycles have looked much like that for a long time.

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They even seem to have the peaks and dips in the same place (like the peaks in '80 and '90 for example)
Volcanoes and El Nino/La Nina.

Quote:
Obviously this in itself doesn't mean or proof anything, I just wanted to wisecrack a little. (And I thought the possible correlation of the two was dismissed a little too easily)
Fair enough. I hope I've improved on that for you .
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It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
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