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#281 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 10,109
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#282 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,985
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I'm now sorry I prematurely congratulated you on your dignified conduct, Connie. I see I was mistaken.
Is it at all possible that you are wrong? Because if we do think about it, as you suggest, than it's much easier to believe that you failed because your odds of success were one in a thousand (in other words, no better than anyone else's) than because you were the victim of an elaborate hoax. If you had succeeded, than everyone here would have been prepared to accept that your claims deserve to be taken seriously, or at least that further investigation is warranted. What would it to take for you to admit you are in error? |
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Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. -Christopher Hitchens Believe what you're told. There would be chaos if everyone thought for themselves. -Top Dog slogan |
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#283 |
New Blood
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3
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Since this event was recorded I am sure that it will be possible to review the video and see if your claim has merit. I think I know what you are talking about and from my vantage point I could tell that Banachek noticed the card after the envelope had been cut and he had peered inside and then remarked that it was an Ace. I did not feel that he had in any way known the suit and card until he saw it.
I guess in the end, like most of the hoaxters out there, I knew you would start making accusations and excuses for your charlatan ways. Face it Connie Sonne, you failed the challenge. |
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#284 |
Mad Scientist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,626
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You were told and then asked about Banacheck beforehand, you knew who he was and what he did for a living (he is not just a 'card handler', and all magicians have 'card handling' in their bag of tricks) and you still agreed, and he did NOTHING to those envelopes (they were doubled upped and you had to cut both envelopes open). He did nothing but observe and pull cards out of envelopes with you STANDING over him so you could see every move he made).
He did not say that until the envelope was cut open, I was there, and he only said that once he saw it. The test was fair and extremely controlled. There is no way at all he could have done anything to "cheat" you. You are just saying that now because it seems like an easy "out". You were made aware beforehand totally about who he was, and you could see he did NOTHING to cheat you, NOTHING. I've just lost all respect for you. |
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Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it! |
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#285 |
Mad Scientist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,626
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If you need further reminding of who he is, then I guess you can go to his website here:
http://www.banachek.org/nonflash/index.htm |
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Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it! |
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#286 |
New Blood
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3
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It does seem like they should have had someone else handling the cards / envelopes, running the test and had Banachek standing to oversee the protocol.
If nothing else just to avoid such claims of impropriety. We may all think Banachek is a stand up guy, but would any of us trust one of Sylvia Brown or Benny Hinn's cronies. From the believers view it isn't any different. If my memory is correct the envelope was cut and it appeared he looked inside before announcing the card. Plus any card switch would have had to been done at the picking & opening of the original picks, not at the verification of the unpicked cards stage. It seems it would be little late. Ms Sonne failed because dousing doesn't work (duh!) Would have been cool if she had gotten one anyway. Too bad it was statistically average. |
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#287 |
Hot enough to melt 4" rebar
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,940
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I was sitting in the second row, and paid pretty close attention. She was the one that cut open each envelope, and Banachek had to pull on some harder to get them out of the envelopes. She was standing in front of him, it was recorded. He did not say, to the best of my recollection, anything about the contents of an envelope before he open and pulled, or attempted to pull, the cards from the envelopes.
I also went to the press conference afterward. Everyone was respectful. She says that the powers 'out there' weren't ready to be revealed. She seems like a very nice lady, but she is deluded. |
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#288 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 53,052
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__________________
If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him. Lupus is Lupus tor central scrutineezer |
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#289 |
King of the Pod People
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 25,682
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#290 |
Scholar
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 112
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#291 |
Scholar
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 64
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I agree that it took a lot of bravery for Ms. Sonne to appear at TAM7 and attempt to perform her supposed "gift" in front of a large room full of people who, even if they thought it would be interesting if she was able to prove herself and her claim, really expected her to fail.
And here's the deal with the "psychological problems" put simply: if she knew she was faking, she wouldn't have agreed to the protocol. If she genuinely believed in her powers, of course she would try to prove them. Any excuse she can come up with does not change the fact that there is no proof anywhere, whatsoever than any supernatural or paranormal powers exist. |
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#292 |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 169
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Gzuzkrytz, you are right about both. I can and will demonstrate everything. I can and will ensure you, that Ì have been cheated. I allready have the evidences. Check my name out in first in september. I will get a website where I will put it ALL, also in english. AND all the evidences about Maddie. So you can THEN decide if I´m deluded or not!! I can only say now....most of you people out there are wrong, very wrong. My last words here on this site.
Connie |
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#293 |
Gazerbeam's Protege
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,617
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Like many others, I was about to offer my congratulations in the professional way you handled yourself and the grace with which you accepted failure. And like others, I have lost all respect.
As I understand it, the protocol must be agreed to by all parties. I think it is highly likely you knew well in advance that Banachek would be the tester. This gave you ample opportunity to object, even to the point of arriving on stage and saying “No, I want someone else.” Instead, you indicated everything was being done fairly. Banachek kept saying “Ok?” and you kept saying “Yes”. The event was recorded from several angles. If you feel you were cheated, I encourage you to point out when and how. If you do not do that or retract your accusation, I (and many others) will remain convinced that you are not only a charlatan but also a sore loser. |
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I wish someone would find something I wrote on this board to be sig-worthy, thereby effectively granting me immortality.--Antiquehunter The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted years on earth the time spent eating butterscotch pudding. AMERICA! NUMBER 1 IN PARTICLE PHYSICS SINCE JULY 4TH, 1776!!! --SusanConstant |
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#294 |
Muse
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 901
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This makes me sad. Does this always happen?
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#295 |
Mad Scientist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,626
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__________________
Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it! |
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#296 |
Scholar
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 112
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Ma-mom-ma-mamma said that I got's these dowsing powers. Your wrong!
I am not sorry for ridiculing you, nor should I be sorry. You failed a controlled test and called the testers cheaters. That is a cry-baby poor sport, a highly technical term. Nothing aggravates me more than someone who doesn't take responsibility for their actions. You failed with the protocol YOU agreed to. Grow up and accept reality. |
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#297 |
Scholar
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 112
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#298 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ruhr Area in Germany
Posts: 2,431
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Why September and not now? If you really have the evidence that you say you have, there is no need to wait for one and a half month.
Or is it because you need that long to peek into Photoshop and video-editing to fabricate your evidence and doctor the videos to make them show what you want to make them show, but which isn't there? You are a really bad loser. Shame on you for saying that people cheated on you. No greetings to you, Chris |
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Humber-physics 101: The treadmill has no ground equivalent. This means that the belt is not the road, but the Earth. ... That means the belt is also a privileged and unique perspective. If not then the treadmill collapses to the real world equivalent of a real treadmill, with different objects at different velocities in the same frame. Either way, no motion. |
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#299 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 53,052
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__________________
If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him. Lupus is Lupus tor central scrutineezer |
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#300 |
New Blood
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2
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If Ms. Sonne truly believes she has been cheated by Jref, she is free to look into arbitration and to present her proof. Certainly she could even file a civil claim and a complaint (including her proof) with the District Attorney for fraud.
Something tells me none of this will occur. |
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#301 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,345
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You're being pedantic, but that's your right. I'll join you. She performed her end of the contract flawlessly. She was not required to dowse the cards correctly - she was required to make an attempt should she deem the conditions suitable. The results of her attempts were to then be evaluated. She did not breach the contract in any way, shape or form.
So, why should she apologize for fulfilling a contract? Had she passed, would you expect the JREF to apologize? |
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#302 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 951
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Has the video been uploaded anywhere yet? If not, any idea when?
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#303 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,985
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__________________
Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. -Christopher Hitchens Believe what you're told. There would be chaos if everyone thought for themselves. -Top Dog slogan |
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#304 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,100
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The JREF is aware of this post by Connie Sonne. We're in various states of travel as we return from TAM, and we'll respond when we've carefully considered what Connie has said. We do have video of the test and the press conference following the event.
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#305 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,900
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__________________
"If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker |
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#306 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,492
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#307 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,492
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#308 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,492
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#309 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 6,190
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Well, I thought it would come to this: an undignified exit by a deeply deluded person.
You declined to make a self test of your claimed ability before the event, even though you were advised to do so. You could have been spared the embarrassment if you had tried. Will you now try a self test afterwards to see if you really can do this trick that you attempted for the very first time in front of a big audience? |
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Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none! |
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#310 |
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 26,646
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If she earns money from her abilities she does not have then her income will go down. There are lots of blogs that have commented about her in the last 24 hours. All of them say she failed. From now on anyone googling her name will find that she failed. It would not be hard to find this thread even though the searcher may not have heard of JREF before.
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#311 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,492
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#312 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 13,194
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The problem of course is that such people think the self-testing they have done is equivalent to the sort of test JREF will do. Read her description of how she convinced her parents again:
Quote:
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#313 |
Notoriously Glorious
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,203
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Though the excuses and finger-pointing are typical of test failures, it's still sad. Her accusations will be easily refuted once video of the challenge is released.
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Knowledge is Power! "If we want to teach the Moon is green cheese then we'll do it!" -- Eric Hovind defending his father's pro-creationist stance. (http://www.kent-hovind.com/) "Believe those who seek the truth. Doubt those who find it." |
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#314 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,292
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lovenwlink wrote:
"It does seem like they should have had someone else handling the cards / envelopes, running the test and had Banachek standing to oversee the protocol. If nothing else just to avoid such claims of impropriety." I agree with this and I agreed with it before Ms. Sonne made her ridiculous accusations against Banachek. We all trust him to perform honestly in a test like this, but he's still a magician by profession. I felt a little weird every time he had her confirm that an envelope was empty. Every time a magician asks me to confirm that an envelope is empty, I know that shenanigans will ensue. If Banachek had made the security guard do all the "handling" I would have felt more comfortable. It all could have been done under Banachek's supervision, but he wouldn't have been handling the cards. I don't think there was anything wrong with the test as it stands, but I think in future tests, it might be wise to have the professional magician supervise, but be less "hands-on." One would think that this would take away the possibility of an accusation of cheating, but I'm sure they'll find another way to accuse. Ward |
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#315 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,492
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I'd say they asked Banachek to handle the cards exactly because of him being a "magician". That way more attention is drawn to mak sure he's not messing with the cards. If the security guard would have handled the cards there would have been less of that for sure. And who's to say the guy in uniform is not a disguised magician himself?
Anyway, the whole event was filmed from different angles. I'm fairly sure any mischief would be spotted in no time. ETA: Not to mention that a professional illusionist/mentalist/whatever is perfect for making sure that the test subject is not messing with the cards. |
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#316 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
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connie sonne
Hi, I'm new here.
While awaiting for my application for membership to approved I've read and reread this thread and the others on the subject of Connie Sonne. And watching the livestreaming of the event at TAM7, along with at one point over 1,600 others. If the lady feels cheated, let her follow the steps which correspond to that. Connie Sonne was a Danish constable, if I've understood correctly, and so obviously knows what needs to be done in a case of cheating in this context. |
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#317 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,292
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I agree completely that the test was valid and the videotapes should prove that.
Of course, anyone could be a magician in disguise---and that's probably what Connie would have said had the security guy handled the cards. I'm just looking for ways (in a future test) to make such claims appear more and more ridiculous. I believe Banachek SHOULD have been there in close proximity to watch for cheating. I just think if he was in a "look, but don't touch" position, he could have looked for cheating on the part of the applicant without running the risk of being accused of same. I agree with you that "a professional illusionist/mentalist/whatever is perfect for making sure that the test subject is not messing with the cards." I just believe that that illusionist can perform that duty without messing with the cards him or herself. Again, the test is valid. She failed with flying colors. I'm not calling for a do-over. I'm not questioning JREF's motives or methods. I can only account for my personal feeling when Banachek would hold a large envelope open for Ms. Sonne to confirm there was nothing in it. It seemed like he was about to pull a rabbit out of the envelope. He didn't, and I don't believe pulled any other switcheroos, but if anyone could....... I wasn't going to say anything at all because I was afraid that it would seem like an attack on Banachek or JREF. When lovenwlink posted his/her comment, I figured I wasn't completely alone. I think it's worth considering the next time around. He should have been there. He should have been in close, making sure no one was trying to pull anything. I've tried to find every way to say this while still making sure that it's clear that I believe everything was on the up and up. I probably failed. Ward |
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#318 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,492
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Welcome to the forum.
By all means, she should go ahead with the proceedings if she feels she has been cheated. I don't remember anyone suggesting that she don't. My prediction is that she won't, because that would prove her definitely wrong. And to a deluded person that is like taking away their air. |
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#319 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,720
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So, Ms Sonne knows she was cheated. The obvious thing to do is take JREF to Court and sue for the $1M and provide the evidence - but instead, she will wait until September and post her accusations on tha intratubes?
I think we all know why she chose the latter action, rather than attempting to clear her good name in a court of law, unless she also suspects that the USA justice system is in league with James Randi? Ms Sonne, your attitude is surely pathetic and a gut reaction to your failure to do what you claimed to be able to do. Go home, think about this for a while, and then reconsider the idea of making yourself even more of a laughing stock than your post-test posts on this forum made you look. You may at least attempt to maintain the little respect of others, and dignity that you have left. Norm |
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#320 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
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Thanks for the welcome, laca.
Obviously no-one here has suggested the lady desist from the appropriate action and I'm very sorry if my post implied such a thing. I'd be willing to bet CS never goes near a legal action, which is a shame. Since the venue was Nevada, I'd love to watch a trial where a "dowser" tried to prove that a 'magician' cheated her of her opportunity to win a million dollars before a jury of 12 Nevadans. |
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