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Old 10th January 2009, 02:49 PM   #1
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Steel structures cannot globally collapse due to gravity alone

Originally Posted by metamars View Post
The ability to cover up mistakes - or worse - also represents a form of power. Maybe not the happy kind of legitimacy/power described in civics text books, but power nevertheless.
It is much we foreigners do not understand about US. You elect a new president ... and then it takes 11 weeks to change president. Here it takes 1 day. Or the US banks. They lend money at 1% interest! But where does it come from? China? OK, before stupid Americans saved money in the bank and recieved 3% interest and could borrow the same money back at 6%, then they saved money at the bank at 0% and it was stolen ... and nobody reacts!
Like the WTC collapses. Steel structures cannot globally collapse due to gravity alone ... and when they explode in mid-air, US experts confirm this happens every time. No need to analyse in depth! You do not need carrots or sticks or deception to run such a country. Luckily it will not last much longer. Bye, bye, USA!


Mod WarningSplit from: A question for debunkers, inspired by Chomsky:
Posted By:Gaspode

Last edited by Gaspode; 18th January 2009 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 10th January 2009, 06:45 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
It is much we foreigners do not understand about US. You elect a new president ... and then it takes 11 weeks to change president. Here it takes 1 day. Or the US banks. They lend money at 1% interest! But where does it come from? China? OK, before stupid Americans saved money in the bank and recieved 3% interest and could borrow the same money back at 6%, then they saved money at the bank at 0% and it was stolen ... and nobody reacts!
Where do you live Heiwa? In some banana republic?

Quote:
Like the WTC collapses. Steel structures cannot globally collapse due to gravity alone ... and when they explode in mid-air, US experts confirm this happens every time. No need to analyse in depth! You do not need carrots or sticks or deception to run such a country. Luckily it will not last much longer. Bye, bye, USA!
Every building can collapse due to gravity. Even without mid-air explosions. Can also happen in Asia, Africa, South America, Antarctica, Europe and Australia.
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Old 10th January 2009, 07:22 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Bell View Post
Every building can collapse due to gravity. Even without mid-air explosions. Can also happen in Asia, Africa, South America, Antarctica, Europe and Australia.

Indeed. Collapses happen frequently after earthquakes, for example.
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Old 11th January 2009, 01:08 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Bell View Post
Where do you live Heiwa? In some banana republic?



Every building can collapse due to gravity. Even without mid-air explosions. Can also happen in Asia, Africa, South America, Antarctica, Europe and Australia.
Sorry, steel structures do not collapse due to gravity and local failures - too much redundancy built into them.

Last edited by Heiwa; 11th January 2009 at 01:15 AM.
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Old 11th January 2009, 01:12 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Indeed. Collapses happen frequently after earthquakes, for example.
Sorry, steel structures do not collapse due to gravity and local failures - too much redundancy built into them. That's why I lived in such a building in Japan several years and was frequently shaken by earth quakes.

PS - I was then teaching Japanese the use of computer beam and FE analysis of steel structures. They did it long hand - works too. Same result. But computers are faster.

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Old 11th January 2009, 01:50 AM   #6
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That's why I lived in such a building in Japan several years and was frequently shaken by earth quakes.
I never lived in Japan, but I can tell that buildings have sophisticated foundations, so they receive limited damage when an earthquake occurs. It's not due to the structures, Einstein.

And what makes steel structures collapsing? Flying Spaghetti Monster?
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Old 11th January 2009, 02:08 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
PS - I was then teaching Japanese the use of computer beam and FE analysis of steel structures. They did it long hand - works too. Same result. But computers are faster.
Did you tell them to just model the structures using pizza boxes?
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Old 11th January 2009, 06:22 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by 240-185 View Post
I never lived in Japan, but I can tell that buildings have sophisticated foundations, so they receive limited damage when an earthquake occurs. It's not due to the structures, Einstein.

And what makes steel structures collapsing? Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Good, you think that buildings with sophisticated foundations do not collapse due to earthquakes. It may not be true though.

Re steel structures - can you give an example of one that globally collapsed due to some local failures and that gravity alone then destroyed everything else - globally? Do not suggest WTC1, 2 and 7. Look further than the ears of your horse, cowboy!

Last edited by Heiwa; 11th January 2009 at 06:24 AM.
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Old 11th January 2009, 06:47 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Sorry, steel structures do not collapse due to gravity and local failures - too much redundancy built into them.
So steel is the only substance on earth that is impervious to gravity?
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Old 11th January 2009, 07:50 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Re steel structures - can you give an example of one that globally collapsed due to some local failures and that gravity alone then destroyed everything else - globally? Do not suggest WTC1, 2 and 7. Look further than the ears of your horse, cowboy!
Who said,that structure would collapse due to gravity and small local failures??? In recent threads resident experts had established that with only impact of plane,structure would not fail.You need fire to weaken steel.

And have not you created a strawman? (Aircraft impact is not localized,but non-fatal mostly)

And then there were examples of fire-only colapses,since gravity-only colapses need bad design or material.(Based upon my understanding... )
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Old 11th January 2009, 02:39 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post

Re steel structures - can you give an example of one that globally collapsed due to some local failures and that gravity alone then destroyed everything else - globally? Do not suggest WTC1, 2 and 7. Look further than the ears of your horse, cowboy!
Here's one:
"The Skyline Plaza Apartments in Fairfax County, Va., after a 1973 progressive collapse that occurred during construction of the 24th floor. The collapse involved the full height of the tower, and falling debris also caused the horizontal progressive collapse of an entire parking garage under construction adjacent to the tower. Fourteen workers were killed, 34 workers were injured."

http://www.bfrl.nist.gov/861/861pubs/collapse/

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Old 11th January 2009, 03:32 PM   #12
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Wow. NIST has to even set up fake workshops on progressive collapse. When those folks learn that they're impossible, especially with steel structures, they're going to want their money back BIG TIME!
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Old 11th January 2009, 11:39 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Stupid View Post
Here's one:
"The Skyline Plaza Apartments in Fairfax County, Va., after a 1973 progressive collapse that occurred during construction of the 24th floor. The collapse involved the full height of the tower, and falling debris also caused the horizontal progressive collapse of an entire parking garage under construction adjacent to the tower. Fourteen workers were killed, 34 workers were injured."

http://www.bfrl.nist.gov/861/861pubs/collapse/

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Thanks for links. No global collapses of steel structures there. Some cast reinforced concrete structures, with local damages yes, steel structures, no.
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Old 11th January 2009, 11:51 PM   #14
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Is Heiwa seriously saying that if something is made of steel it can't fall down?

That bolts and welds can never fail?

That fire doesn't weaken steel?

I wonder what Chomsky would say...
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Old 12th January 2009, 12:49 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Is Heiwa seriously saying that if something is made of steel it can't fall down?
I believe that is what Heiwa is hinting at.
If this is so, then maybe we can dispense with all these structural codes, material's tolerances, and load calculations....as long as it's built of steel.

I'm sarcastic.
But I think steel buildings are engineered to support their upper loads, not designed to "catch" their upper load, if one or two mid-floors fail.

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Old 12th January 2009, 01:02 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Thanks for links. No global collapses of steel structures there. Some cast reinforced concrete structures, with local damages yes, steel structures, no.
I have showed you this before.




Steel frame, fought fire, collapsed in a couple of hours. Cause of collapse = fire. Building is now gone.
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Old 12th January 2009, 03:33 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Thanks for links. No global collapses of steel structures there. Some cast reinforced concrete structures, with local damages yes, steel structures, no.
Sir, I have two - yes two - books in the case behind me that explore building/structure collapses, including those fabricated in steel. And none due to fire, IIRC.
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Old 12th January 2009, 03:54 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Is Heiwa seriously saying that if something is made of steel it can't fall down?

That bolts and welds can never fail?

That fire doesn't weaken steel?

I wonder what Chomsky would say...
No, I just say that local failures (eg due local heating, weakining of a part, bolt or weld failures) in a steel structure do not produce global collapse of the complete structure (at free fall acceleration). Local failures only produce load transfers and higher stressed and maybe deformed, adjacent parts and further destruction is arrested. It is called redundancy. I have explained it at http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist7.htm ; remove a complete, internal column and assume that the load carried by this column is transferred to adjacent columns, the complete load transfer increases stresses in adjacent columns only from 30 to 37.5 % yield stress. No way that adjacent, intact structure will fail and start a global collapse due to a serious, local failure in one part! And it applies to all similar steel structures.
I wonder (in other threads) how NIST could produce its report of WTC7. The software used by NIST can only do static analysis and it seems the analysis is wrong at step 1; the first local failure and associated load transfers. So the NIST report is just propaganda. ASCE should protest, but they lack moral fibre, it seems.
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Old 12th January 2009, 04:00 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
I have showed you this before.


http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1cfcfa7614.jpg

Steel frame, fought fire, collapsed in a couple of hours. Cause of collapse = fire. Building is now gone.
Yes, a steel framed hall, light weight roof structure has sagged due to heat, walls have deformed and no global collapse anywhere. I can show similar examples of sport halls where the steel framed roof structure has collapsed due overload, e.g. too much heavy snow. But the walls remained, etc.
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Old 12th January 2009, 04:29 AM   #20
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Well, firstly I note with some humour and no great surprise that you've drawn back from your initial "no steel structure anywhere, ever, in the whole wide world" position. Really, a career in politics clearly awaits.

Secondly, the sports halls you refer to had independent wall structures - assuming that they're the ones in the same books I have - and hence the comparison you make to them remaining standing is meaningless.

Let me repeat that: meaningless.
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Old 12th January 2009, 07:06 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Yes, a steel framed hall, light weight roof structure has sagged due to heat, walls have deformed and no global collapse anywhere. I can show similar examples of sport halls where the steel framed roof structure has collapsed due overload, e.g. too much heavy snow. But the walls remained, etc.
No, its a warehouse. The only reason the sides did not collapse to the bottom was the bricks and mortar holding the bottoms of the frame up and the building next door giving support. The fire caused a global collapse of the steel frame of this building. It had to be torn down. You said this was not possible. There was no prior damage either, just a fought fire.
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Old 12th January 2009, 07:53 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Yes, a steel framed hall, light weight roof structure has sagged due to heat, walls have deformed and no global collapse anywhere. I can show similar examples of sport halls where the steel framed roof structure has collapsed due overload, e.g. too much heavy snow. But the walls remained, etc.
Off-hand, I'd let real engineers with the use of a fortune of structural simulation computer systems and all the available data decide how one collapse compared to another.

My bit of relevant university education tells me that humans can't appreciate the effect of scale (height and footprint) on forces in a structure and in the comparison of two buildings. It's easy to say a WTC tower is 1,000 time the volume of any one story steel structure. I defer to real engineers present on this.
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Old 12th January 2009, 08:23 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
Off-hand, I'd let real engineers with the use of a fortune of structural simulation computer systems and all the available data decide how one collapse compared to another.

My bit of relevant university education tells me that humans can't appreciate the effect of scale (height and footprint) on forces in a structure and in the comparison of two buildings. It's easy to say a WTC tower is 1,000 time the volume of any one story steel structure. I defer to real engineers present on this.
Any beam or FE analysis using computer software is always full scale, of course. A force one Newton (N) acting on a surface one square meter (m˛) produces a pressure of one Pascal (N/m˛), etc. Evidently you do not need a computer to do such basic calculations. Same with WTC1/2. Upper parts above the fires of WTC1/2 are mostly air > 95%, then floors and partion walls, then furniture, AC, electrical cables and humans, and finally steel columns on which everything is hanging and kept in position. Nothing getting loose up there can really damage the steel columns below!

Why?

They are much stronger than anything else up top. Read http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist3.htm for basic info about this subject.

NIST thinks that if you drop a mix of air, floors, walls, furniture, AC, cables and humans on a solid steel column or 280+ steel columns, the latter are destroyed.

Reason should be that the potential energy, PE, of the mix of air, floors, walls, furniture, AC, cables and humans exceed the strain energy, SE, that can be absorbed by the steel columns! PE > SE.

However, the suggestion is absurd! Like most propaganda. BUT, as 80%+ of the US population has no idea of PE and SE, they believe it.

I assume you belong to this gullible 80%.

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Old 12th January 2009, 08:26 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
The fire caused a global collapse of the steel frame of this building. It had to be torn down.
Why does anybody have to tear down something that has already collapsed?
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Old 12th January 2009, 09:26 AM   #25
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Why don't you answer technical points put to you?
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Old 12th January 2009, 10:40 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
No, I just say that local failures (eg due local heating, weakining of a part, bolt or weld failures) in a steel structure do not produce global collapse of the complete structure (at free fall acceleration). Local failures only produce load transfers and higher stressed and maybe deformed, adjacent parts and further destruction is arrested. It is called redundancy. I have explained it at http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist7.htm ; remove a complete, internal column and assume that the load carried by this column is transferred to adjacent columns, the complete load transfer increases stresses in adjacent columns only from 30 to 37.5 % yield stress. No way that adjacent, intact structure will fail and start a global collapse due to a serious, local failure in one part! And it applies to all similar steel structures.
I wonder (in other threads) how NIST could produce its report of WTC7. The software used by NIST can only do static analysis and it seems the analysis is wrong at step 1; the first local failure and associated load transfers. So the NIST report is just propaganda. ASCE should protest, but they lack moral fibre, it seems.
If you get enough local failures you will have complete failure.
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Old 12th January 2009, 10:55 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Why does anybody have to tear down something that has already collapsed?
Gonna start with the semantic games now are we?

I smell dueling dictionaries as we argue the meaning of collapsed and tear down.

When reason and facts are against you, start splitting hairs about word meanings.
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Old 12th January 2009, 12:32 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
If you get enough local failures you will have complete failure.
No - first you need one failure, it will produce some load redistribution and maybe some other failures ... and then the local destruction is arrested. Happens every time with steel structures.
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Old 12th January 2009, 12:39 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Gonna start with the semantic games now are we?

I smell dueling dictionaries as we argue the meaning of collapsed and tear down.

When reason and facts are against you, start splitting hairs about word meanings.
??? Nobody as debunked any of my observations at http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist3.htm . Try ... but don't tear your hair off your head.
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Old 12th January 2009, 01:17 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Why does anybody have to tear down something that has already collapsed?

Because the ties to the building next to it and the bricks and mortar supported the bottom of the columns.

The building caught fire and collapsed due to the fire even though the fire was fought by firemen. The heat from the fire was enough to weaken the steel so much the steel frame completely collapsed.

You said this could not happen. You are a liar.
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Old 12th January 2009, 01:23 PM   #31
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The more I read truthers when they try to do science, the more I laugh at one of their favorite slogans: "That, if you believe the official theory, the laws of physics were suspended on 9/11".
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Old 12th January 2009, 01:36 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
??? Nobody as debunked any of my observations at http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist3.htm . Try ... but don't tear your hair off your head.
Because your work is complete junk science. You start with this junk,
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The WTC1 destruction is in many respects similar to a collision between two steel ships!
You present zero evidence and ignore gravity and physics to make up more junk.
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Then you show you are a paranoid conspiracy monger who has no idea what happen on 9/11.

Your work proves one thing, you are not qualified to study 9/11, and your work is reflective of your total lack of knowledge of what this thread is about. Try to comment on this thread and stop SPAMING your junk science in other threads.


You have no clue how buildings fail, and you brush off gravity and brag about it by your ship collision analogy. Funny as you fail to submit your junk science because it has been seen as complete hogwash. 9/11 truth avoids your work and they use beam weapons. I guess you new Vacuum weapon is too much woo for most.
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Old 13th January 2009, 05:00 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Because the ties to the building next to it and the bricks and mortar supported the bottom of the columns.

The building caught fire and collapsed due to the fire even though the fire was fought by firemen. The heat from the fire was enough to weaken the steel so much the steel frame completely collapsed.

You said this could not happen. You are a liar.
Hm, your picture is of a ware house where the light weight roof has dropped/sagged/deformed down (serious local failures of some roof supporting parts apparently due to fire/heat) and the walls are standing. No total, global collapse of the whole steel structure, of course.

You have to come up with a better example, e.g. a 10+ storeys steel structure with local fire somewhere that is totally destroyed. I assure you, it will never collapse. Or try my little experiment at http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist1.htm#6 . JREF members have tried in vain to debunk it.

Or just put a fire in any steel or cast iron stove for heating a house. It does not collapse ... the stove! Put extra weight on top of the stove, e.g. a pot of soup. No collapse. The soup is just getting hot! Sorry, metamars, for this off topic clarification of how to heat a pot of soup without causing global collapse.
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Old 13th January 2009, 05:13 AM   #34
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One thing I have to admit, for someone who's theories are basically laughed at by most real experts, Heiwa has debate stamina.
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Old 13th January 2009, 05:53 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
Hm, your picture is of a ware house where the light weight roof has dropped/sagged/deformed down (serious local failures of some roof supporting parts apparently due to fire/heat) and the walls are standing. No total, global collapse of the whole steel structure, of course.

You have to come up with a better example, e.g. a 10+ storeys steel structure with local fire somewhere that is totally destroyed. I assure you, it will never collapse. Or try my little experiment at http://heiwaco.tripod.com/nist1.htm#6 . JREF members have tried in vain to debunk it.

Or just put a fire in any steel or cast iron stove for heating a house. It does not collapse ... the stove! Put extra weight on top of the stove, e.g. a pot of soup. No collapse. The soup is just getting hot! Sorry, metamars, for this off topic clarification of how to heat a pot of soup without causing global collapse.
Just because you repeat your lies and move goalposts does not make you any more correct.
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Old 13th January 2009, 07:15 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Just because you repeat your lies and move goalposts does not make you any more correct.
I think you are evil! And what is evil? Gilad Atzmon explains it in Eleftherotypia last Sunday. It may also answer the question of metamars?

Gilad: "Modern evil is a sophisticated system that pushes the evil into the realm of the inexpressible. You see it all and you keep silent. You know what it is, you want to shout it out and yet something within you stops you. I will try to elaborate.

Evil is commonly interpreted as 'profoundly immoral and wrong’. For me the ultimate manifestation of evil is the continuous abuse of the Palestinian people, people who were ethnically cleansed and are now locked, starved and bombarded in concentration camps by their cleansers. In the last four days we have been seeing 2 million starved Palestinians being subject to Israeli devastating air raids. Hundreds are dead, thousands are wounded and the world keeps quiet.

It is not just the Israelis who are guilty of such a crime. It is also world Jewry who institutionally support Israel, it is also the Wolfowitzes who made America and Britain into an Israeli mission force. But it doesn’t end there either. It is the entire Western political leadership that sees Gaza people minced into dust by IDF war machinery and yet fails to stand up for the obvious justice. It is the Western media that fills its mouth with water. It is all of us who see the Jewish state slaughtering civilians and does nothing. 'For Evil to take place, all you need is a few good people who sit and do nothing’.

And yet modern evil takes us one step further. It is a sophisticated matrix that is very effective in silencing and dismantling the possibility of criticism. We see it all, we see the credit crunch, we see Lehman Brothers, we see the Wolfowitzes who took us to Iraq, the Greenspans who created a fantasy of financial boom at the expense of America’s lower classes, we learn about the 50 billion Dollar Swindler Bernard Madoff and we somehow fail to shout it out. We are devastated by what we see and yet we are suppressed by our fear of pronouncing the notion of Zionist power. In the name of correctness we refrain from telling the truth. In fact I myself had been proceeding carefully in circles before I managed to spit it out.

Being under the spell of a modern evil apparatus we are afraid that telling the truth would reflect badly on us. We are shattered by our own realizations. We are becoming a self-sufficient subservient censoring machine. Against our will we are becoming collaborators of Zionism. Hence we shouldn’t be surprised if the grave fate awaiting us is no different from the Palestinian one.

Seemingly, we have lost our true survival instincts for the sake of political correctness and liberal ideology. Thus, like the Palestinians we become subject to a very profound institutional crime. This is what modern evil is and I am very afraid of it. I know very well that by the time it all bursts, by the time we manage to utter it all, no one will be able to stop the tide of anger."

For similar reasons it is easy to cover up the WTC atrocities and blame it on UBL.
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Old 13th January 2009, 07:49 AM   #37
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So now anyone who does not claim an inside job is part of an evil jewish conspiracy and a coward to boot?

You truly are the most incompetant person ever to claim he is an engineer. Even if I was evil, I would be competant at it. You would fail at that.

If it was so easy to cover up WTC then how did so many moron like truthers see through it?
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Old 13th January 2009, 07:55 AM   #38
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I think Heiwa has the same affliction as so many other truthers; this issue is all about world view and politics to him. All that sciency stuff takes a back seat.
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Old 13th January 2009, 09:32 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
So now anyone who does not claim an inside job is part of an evil jewish conspiracy and a coward to boot?

You truly are the most incompetant person ever to claim he is an engineer. Even if I was evil, I would be competant at it. You would fail at that.

If it was so easy to cover up WTC then how did so many moron like truthers see through it?
First question. Obviously no.
First proposition. Any evidence? My skills as an engineer are well proven.
Second proposition. No doubt you are competently evil. You are not alone, though .
Last question. Life is not easy. And it is easy not to tell the truth. BTW - 99%of the truthers are not morons. Only evil persons suggest that. All of these evil persons are obvious morons.
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Old 13th January 2009, 12:02 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Heiwa View Post
First question. Obviously no.
First proposition. Any evidence? My skills as an engineer are well proven.
Second proposition. No doubt you are competently evil. You are not alone, though .
Last question. Life is not easy. And it is easy not to tell the truth. BTW - 99%of the truthers are not morons. Only evil persons suggest that. All of these evil persons are obvious morons.
You are a funny dude, Heiwa. Thanks for the laughs.

Oh, and 100% of twoofers are morons. It is a requirement for the job. Oh noes !!!! The dude that uses pizza boxes to "prove" that 9/11 was an inside job thinks I am an evil moron!!!!!!! What ever shall I do?!?!?!??!?!?!?

Last edited by dtugg; 13th January 2009 at 12:04 PM.
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