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Tags steven jones , stj911 , victoria ashley

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Old 20th January 2009, 04:43 PM   #1
GregoryUrich
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Dear Steering Committee of Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice

Dear Steering Committee of Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice,

I hereby resign my membership with Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice and respectfully demand that all information on the public web site regarding my membership status be updated to reflect this or be removed. My reasons for this decision are that the organization does not live up to its charter regarding “evidence based scientific inquiry” or democratic principles.

I have repeatedly called on the steering committee to reign in abuses by the moderator (Victoria Ashley) on the discussion forum only to be ignored. The abuses have ranged from anti-scientific censorship tactics (i.e. moving unwanted arguments to the “Debunker” sub-forum) to the banning of members who actually call others to the mat to support their spurious claims. I have repeatedly asked the steering committee to make a simple statement to the effect that ALL evidence based arguments should be permitted on the “Scientific Analysis” sub-forum.

An earlier letter to the steering committee:
Quote:
Dear Friends,

I have sent the moderators at the STJ911 forum the following questions and posted them repeatedly on the forum:
1. I believe the analysis by Kuttler (WTC1) is incorrect for a number of reasons. Is it OK to post on the Scientific Analysis forum demonstrating what is wrong with this analysis?

2. Is it OK to challenge each generally accepted theory or results which I believe may be incorrect on the Scientific Analysis forum?

3. If I think that gravitational collapse is the most likely cause of the destruction of WTC1 and 2, is it OK to argue that on the Scientific Analysis forum?

No answers have been forthcoming. Considering the hundreds of hours I have put into sincere work for our cause, I believe I at least deserve answers to these questions. Any support you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Let's not let science and truth die on our watch.

Best regards,
Gregory Urich
These calls for a commitment to the scientific process have fallen on deaf ears. In all fairness, Steven Jones has supported this, but he is not on the steering committee. Actually, one steering committee member did support this and was subsequently banned from the discussion forum after repeatedly arguing my point of view.

The organization, Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice, is supposed to be democratic in accord with the frequently asked questions on the web site which is as close to a charter as I can find for the group:
Quote:
5. "Who is in charge now, and how does the group operate?"
An elected steering committee will be in charge of the website and its contents. Currently an ad hoc committee is in place. Administrative positions will be limited to one year. Important decisions affecting the whole group will be submitted via email to the membership.
To my knowledge, the original ad-hoc committee has retained their positions for years, there have been no elections and not a single “important decision” has ever been submitted to the whole group.

Needless to say, I am extremely disappointed by the organization. In my opinion the group no longer functions in its search for truth, but has come down on the side of delusion and misinformation. I hope my resignation is a wakeup call to the steering committee and members. Justice can never be served if the truth is secondary to the movement.

Sincerely,
Gregory Urich
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Old 20th January 2009, 04:58 PM   #2
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I assume this was posted at their website as well....
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Old 20th January 2009, 05:12 PM   #3
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Gregory, I am baffled that it took you this long to come to those conclusions,
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Old 20th January 2009, 05:13 PM   #4
GregoryUrich
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
I assume this was posted at their website as well....
No, I was recently banned from their forum and have never had access to posting information on the stj911 web site.
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Old 20th January 2009, 05:15 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by GregoryUrich View Post
No, I was recently banned from their forum and have never had access to posting information on the stj911 web site.

Do they have a mailing address where you can send hard copies of your request and concerns?
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Old 20th January 2009, 05:19 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Do they have a mailing address where you can send hard copies of your request and concerns?
I sent the message to the steering committee members via email. I have had email dialogs with the steering committee on all these issues for over a year now.
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Old 20th January 2009, 05:22 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by A W Smith View Post
Gregory, I am baffled that it took you this long to come to those conclusions,
Actually, I came to this conclusion about a year ago but I wanted to retain access to the discussion forum to try and argue for rationality. Since I recently got banned from the discussion forum, I have no reason to remain a member. I got banned for a statement to the effect that:

"I continue to search for the truth, which is why I don't spend much time here anymore."
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Old 20th January 2009, 05:26 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by GregoryUrich View Post
I sent the message to the steering committee members via email. I have had email dialogs with the steering committee on all these issues for over a year now.

I don't know if you are from the U.S., but if you use snail mail, you can request a Return Receipt with the signature and address of the recipient. This way if they do not honor your request to be removed from their list of registered members, you have some proof that not only did you make the request, but that someone acknowledged receiving it.

I admit, you can do the same thing with e-mail Return Receipt.
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Old 20th January 2009, 06:02 PM   #9
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Let see if I understand this correctly, a member of the steering committee, the members charged with managing the group, was banned from the forums for arguing in your favor?

How is that possible other than showing that the committee is nothing but a public figurehead that holds no real authority.
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Old 20th January 2009, 06:08 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Alareth View Post
Let see if I understand this correctly, a member of the steering committee, the members charged with managing the group, was banned from the forums for arguing in your favor?

How is that possible other than showing that the committee is nothing but a public figurehead that holds no real authority.
I don't know if you could call it a public figurehead...the steering committee members are not publicly known, and not widely known within the group as far as I can tell.
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Old 20th January 2009, 06:27 PM   #11
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I cannot say I am the least bit surprised by their actions. Welcome to Pseudoscience at its finest GU.

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Old 20th January 2009, 06:38 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by GregoryUrich View Post
I don't know if you could call it a public figurehead...the steering committee members are not publicly known, and not widely known within the group as far as I can tell.

And Victoria Ashley? Who is that? Did you ever meet her? B. Architecture, M.A.,Psychology - Psychology researcher. Has, according to 911research's "Who are we", " ... contributed unique insights into the modes and methods of misinformation used to marginalize the 9/11 Truth Movement."
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Old 20th January 2009, 06:51 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
And Victoria Ashley? Who is that? Did you ever meet her? B. Architecture, M.A.,Psychology - Psychology researcher. Has, according to 911research's "Who are we", " ... contributed unique insights into the modes and methods of misinformation used to marginalize the 9/11 Truth Movement."
And no doubt she's used her "unique insights" to determine that Gregory is disinfo. Should we assume you agree?
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Old 20th January 2009, 07:28 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
And Victoria Ashley? Who is that? Did you ever meet her? B. Architecture, M.A.,Psychology - Psychology researcher. Has, according to 911research's "Who are we", " ... contributed unique insights into the modes and methods of misinformation used to marginalize the 9/11 Truth Movement."
Who is anybody? I think she's been the moderator of the STJ911 forum since its inception. I've heard that she is Jim Hoffman's wife or "partner". I don't know if that's true but my impression is that she is well connected within the truth movement.

What I do know is that she single handedly, with the support of Kevin Ryan, destroyed the scientific process on that forum. Valid arguments were segregated based on the source (e.g. Greening, Mackey, etc.) so that they wouldn't gain any weight. Presenting evidence against CD was tolerated for a short while but then it was made heretical and relegated to the debunker subforum. There are no (and never have been any) debunkers on that forum!
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Old 20th January 2009, 07:33 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Slayhamlet View Post
And no doubt she's used her "unique insights" to determine that Gregory is disinfo. Should we assume you agree?
In all fairness, Victoria never accused me of being disinfo.
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Old 20th January 2009, 08:29 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by GregoryUrich View Post
No, I was recently banned from their forum and have never had access to posting information on the stj911 web site.
And 911Truth was such a first amendment group. lol

They don't listen to reason. You tried.
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Old 20th January 2009, 08:39 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by GregoryUrich View Post
These calls for a commitment to the scientific process have fallen on deaf ears. In all fairness, Steven Jones has supported this, but he is not on the steering committee. Actually, one steering committee member did support this and was subsequently banned from the discussion forum after repeatedly arguing my point of view.
Bolding mine. This surprises me, I would have assumed that Dr. Jones was very much driving the behavior of the group.

Anyway, you tried. I give you credit for sticking with them long, long after I would have written them off -- you have to admit, the latest "paper" by Dr. MacQueen and Mr. Szamboti is neither the first pile of junk, nor the worst, they've put forth. It's a pity you couldn't help them see their own problems.

In the end, your goals were simply incompatible. You're looking for factual answers, and they're not.
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Old 20th January 2009, 11:37 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
And Victoria Ashley? Who is that? Did you ever meet her? B. Architecture, M.A.,Psychology - Psychology researcher. Has, according to 911research's "Who are we", " ... contributed unique insights into the modes and methods of misinformation used to marginalize the 9/11 Truth Movement."
She's also reportedly Victronix on the Truth Action Forums, the preferred hangout of the "responsible" Truthers. Here's a pic of her from Carol Brouillet:

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Old 20th January 2009, 11:48 PM   #19
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Thanks for posting this, Gregory. You made a wise decision.
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Old 21st January 2009, 12:17 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by GregoryUrich View Post
Who is anybody? I think she's been the moderator of the STJ911 forum since its inception. I've heard that she is Jim Hoffman's wife or "partner". I don't know if that's true but my impression is that she is well connected within the truth movement.
When Jim Hoffman has been e-mailed regarding the contents of his 911research site, Victoria Ashley has responded, so there is at least some connection between them.

Here is what is said about Ashley at 911research:

Quote:
Victoria Ashley has been researching the attack since 2003, and has contributed unique insights into the modes and methods of misinformation used to marginalize the 9/11 Truth Movement. Ashley highlighted the importance of Steven Jones' work in the essay A Physics Professor Speaks Out on 9-11: Reason, Publicity, and Reaction, and helped to organize the Scholars for 9/11 Truth & Justice group.
http://911research.wtc7.net/re911/about.html#who
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Old 21st January 2009, 12:23 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by GregoryUrich View Post
I don't know if you could call it a public figurehead...the steering committee members are not publicly known, and not widely known within the group as far as I can tell.
Great Ceasar's Ghost!

The members don't know who runs the place?

So they have their own little Shadow Government thing going there? A proper little anonymous oligarchy.

So just who is it secretly pulling the strings to give us "Truth and Justice" as if it were some kind of Punch and Judy show staged by mental patients for those less fortunate than themselves?

Jones, Victoria Ashley, Hoffman... who else is there?
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Old 21st January 2009, 12:39 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Jones, Victoria Ashley, Hoffman... who else is there?
Kevin Ryan.
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Old 21st January 2009, 01:35 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
And Victoria Ashley? Who is that? Did you ever meet her? B. Architecture, M.A.,Psychology - Psychology researcher. Has, according to 911research's "Who are we", " ... contributed unique insights into the modes and methods of misinformation used to marginalize the 9/11 Truth Movement."
Architecture undergraduate degree over to a postgrad in Psychology? Bit of a career change there!
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Old 21st January 2009, 02:38 AM   #24
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Gregory, you have my sympathy over the way STJ911 has treated you. The organisation appears to be a clique run for the benefit of a small minority of its members, and has lost any sight it ever had of its aims. I think you're doing the right thing making a break from them; there's only so long anyone can put up with being the only sane person in the room.

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Old 21st January 2009, 03:53 AM   #25
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The STJ Blog reveals the STJ911.org committee members as of August 2008:

The STJ911 Committee
Victoria Ashley, Frank Legge, Nicholas Newton, Chris Poate, Kevin Ryan, Carl Weis
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Old 21st January 2009, 04:42 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by ref View Post
The STJ Blog reveals the STJ911.org committee members as of August 2008:

The STJ911 Committee
Victoria Ashley, Frank Legge, Nicholas Newton, Chris Poate, Kevin Ryan, Carl Weis
Ahhh The Gang Of Six unmasked!

So Mr (S.) Jones is not on the committee, just some kind of Nutbag Emeritus?
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Old 21st January 2009, 05:07 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Ahhh The Gang Of Six unmasked!

So Mr (S.) Jones is not on the committee, just some kind of Nutbag Emeritus?
Actually, I don't know what Jones's role at STJ911.org is. The committee seems to run things over there. Here is a selected compilation of text from the STJ911.org site, that may help clear the picture.


Quote:
This group and website, like the sister site, the Journal of 9/11 Studies, seeks to present theories and evidence using the scientific method, while also encouraging and presenting related strong efforts in areas such as grand juries, media reform, protests, etc.
Quote:
Two of our members, Steven Jones and Kevin Ryan, also created the peer-reviewed Journal of 9/11 Studies...
Quote:
Scholars and its website are currently governed by an ad hoc committee, which formed following a general consensus reached among the membership of the original Scholars for 9/11 Truth regarding governance, website content, and civility. In the near future, an election will be held to select a steering committee. Administrative positions will last for one year.
Quote:
Except for articles that name Steven E. Jones as the author, Jones has not contributed to the authorship of this website. While Jones has chosen not to highlight the abusive tactics of his detractors, authors of this website have.

I don't know how outdated that info is. The original 2006 members of the ad-hoc committee included Frank Legge, Victoria Ashley and Kevin Ryan. I don't know, like Gregory said, if they actually have had any election "in the near future" after that text was written, since in August 2008 those same people were still members of the committee.

But it seems, that STJ911.org and JONES are sister sites, and Jones is much more involved with JONES than STJ911.org. The committee runs STJ911.org and Jones actually only seems to be a regular member there nowadays. Unless he is running things behind the scenes
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Old 21st January 2009, 11:13 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Great Ceasar's Ghost!

The members don't know who runs the place?

So they have their own little Shadow Government thing going there? A proper little anonymous oligarchy.

So just who is it secretly pulling the strings to give us "Truth and Justice" as if it were some kind of Punch and Judy show staged by mental patients for those less fortunate than themselves?

Jones, Victoria Ashley, Hoffman... who else is there?

Wow, are the NWO attempting to destabilise america by accusing the government of underhand tactics through small groups of people they've managed to get control over?
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Old 21st January 2009, 11:36 AM   #29
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I fine decision Gregory!

You are a engineer right?
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Old 21st January 2009, 12:46 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Gregory, you have my sympathy over the way STJ911 has treated you. The organisation appears to be a clique run for the benefit of a small minority of its members, and has lost any sight it ever had of its aims. I think you're doing the right thing making a break from them; there's only so long anyone can put up with being the only sane person in the room.

Dave
Well when you have a group that starts with the premise that anyone who produces evidence contrary to the "inside job" mantra is cointelpro, what do you expect?

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Old 28th January 2009, 08:42 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by GregoryUrich View Post
Dear Steering Committee of Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice,

I hereby resign my membership with Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice and respectfully demand that all information on the public web site regarding my membership status be updated to reflect this or be removed. ...
Sincerely,
Gregory Urich
They took action! I could not find your name posted at S911TJ any more. If only they would take action and use logic and evidence instead of delusions.



Have you removed your name from the 911Truth petition that claims to have “ample evidence” to blame others for 911 instead of the terrorists? Wow, the mother of all web pages - http://patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html still has you a loyal member and drank the Kool-aid engineer for 911Truth.
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Gregory H. Urich, BS EECS, BA Music – Senior Consultant, Software Engineering.
  • Signatory of Petition of Solidarity to the Attorney General of New York for a new independent grand jury investigation of 9/11 11/19/04: "We the undersigned: a) think that there is ample evidence and probable cause to believe that many grave and still unresolved crimes were committed by US officials prior to, during and after the events of 9/11; b) observe that most of these apparent crimes, including but not limited to abetment of mass murder, criminal negligence, insider trading, and obstruction of justice fall well within the jurisdiction of New York's top law enforcement officials ..." http://www.justicefor911.org
  • Member: Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice Association Statement: "Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice is a non-partisan organization consisting of independent researchers and activists engaged in uncovering the true nature of the September 11, 2001 attacks."
Oops, a web page with you still in Scholars; open-loop truth web pages may be a problem to reclaim your intellectual credibility from the anti-intellectual 911Truth movement of delusions. There is that lie from www.justicefor911.org. Good luck.

http://911guide.googlepages.com/Patr...ed-Enginee.pdf how do you expunge this goop from your record? Will you be eternally stained with the stink of 911Truth delusions?

Last edited by beachnut; 28th January 2009 at 08:53 PM. Reason: You could tell those guy 19 terrorist did 911 and save them from stupid
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Old 28th January 2009, 11:25 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
http://911guide.googlepages.com/Patr...ed-Enginee.pdf how do you expunge this goop from your record? Will you be eternally stained with the stink of 911Truth delusions?
Well, I can remove his name from that pdf pretty easily
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Old 28th January 2009, 11:38 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Gregory, you have my sympathy over the way STJ911 has treated you. The organisation appears to be a clique run for the benefit of a small minority of its members, and has lost any sight it ever had of its aims. I think you're doing the right thing making a break from them; there's only so long anyone can put up with being the only sane person in the room.

Dave
It seems that give them enough rope and eventually they begin to feast on their own.
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Old 28th January 2009, 11:39 PM   #34
beachnut
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Originally Posted by ref View Post
Well, I can remove his name from that pdf pretty easily
cool. Where did that pop up? You can expunge some things.

How did I find your web page? I must of searched Urich and patriots.

How do you expunge your truther-past? talk to ref!

outstanding

Last edited by beachnut; 28th January 2009 at 11:40 PM. Reason: i m there 4 i m
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Old 28th January 2009, 11:54 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
cool. Where did that pop up? You can expunge some things.

How did I find your web page? I must of searched Urich and patriots.

How do you expunge your truther-past? talk to ref!

outstanding
That is my critique of Alan Miller's "Patriots Question 9/11" site, that I wrote a year or so ago for my site. I can erase Urich name from there, at least the STJ part.

Greg, do you still stand by the Petition of Solidarity to the Attorney General of New York? I can erase that too, if the info is outdated.

But I think the erases will not be that easy with Alan Miller site

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Last edited by ref; 28th January 2009 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 29th January 2009, 12:09 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by ref View Post
That is my critique of Alan Miller's "Patriots Question 9/11" site, that I wrote a year or so ago for my site. I can erase Urich name from there, at least the STJ part.

Greg, do you still stand by the Petition of Solidarity to the Attorney General of New York? I can erase that too, if the info is outdated.

But I think the erases will not be that easy with Alan Miller site
Alan is the patriots page?

Patriots have people who I have tired to tell they are posted at a web site of anti-intelligence. People like General Clark are still there; I guess my attempts are dismissed as spam. And Clark is suppose to be highly intelligent. I guess all people are created equal, and free choice is an option. Who has chosen to be on the web page of 911Truth delusions?

To me the Patriot for 911Truth web site is a list of people who suspended rational thought to buy into delusions of 911Truth.
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Old 29th January 2009, 02:29 AM   #37
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The "Patriots question 9/11" site is really sad. It is the product of one Alan Miller, who decides himself who he wants to include. He lists every single person who has, by his interpretation, said anything even remotely suggestive of an inside job. Of course, his interpretations are dead wrong. He has, for example, included people who died on 9/11 as "patriots who question 9/11". One good example is Frank A. Demartini.

That is one sad, sad site.
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Old 29th January 2009, 05:12 AM   #38
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A very sad site. When you dig into it, you also realize that many of the scholars allegedly supporting 9/11 truth, are merely friends and associates of David Ray Griffin, who reviewed (likely as a favor) his book for him.

TAM
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Old 29th January 2009, 12:52 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by ref View Post
The "Patriots question 9/11" site is really sad. It is the product of one Alan Miller, who decides himself who he wants to include. He lists every single person who has, by his interpretation, said anything even remotely suggestive of an inside job. Of course, his interpretations are dead wrong. He has, for example, included people who died on 9/11 as "patriots who question 9/11". One good example is Frank A. Demartini.

That is one sad, sad site.
Nice to have web sites like yours http://911guide.googlepages.com/
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Old 30th January 2009, 06:24 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
They took action! I could not find your name posted at S911TJ any more. If only they would take action and use logic and evidence instead of delusions.

Have you removed your name from the 911Truth petition that claims to have “ample evidence” to blame others for 911 instead of the terrorists? Wow, the mother of all web pages - http://patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html still has you a loyal member and drank the Kool-aid engineer for 911Truth. Oops, a web page with you still in Scholars; open-loop truth web pages may be a problem to reclaim your intellectual credibility from the anti-intellectual 911Truth movement of delusions. There is that lie from www.justicefor911.org. Good luck.

http://911guide.googlepages.com/Patr...ed-Enginee.pdf how do you expunge this goop from your record? Will you be eternally stained with the stink of 911Truth delusions?
I have started writing a personal statement to "Patriots" but I am not finished yet. I do indeed distance my self from the claim of ample evidence, but unfortunately one can not unsign a petition.

I still think a new "real" investigation would uncover gross negligence and obstruction of justice. In that context, I support the call for a new investigation. Nonetheless, the truth movement so misguided that I no longer support it.
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