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Old 25th January 2009, 12:09 PM   #1
Thunder
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Jews daily thank God that they were not born Gentiles, women, or slaves

This is a fact. I looked it up in my little Sedur (Jewish prayer book).

The exact prayer is this:

"Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for not having made me a Gentile."

"Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for not having made me a slave."

Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for not having made me a woman."

This prayer is said every morning by millions of Jews around the world.


Should Jews stop saying this prayer, as it is highly offensive to non-Jews and women? (and slaves)

I say, it is the 21st century, and its time to evolve.

Plus the fact that Jews make a huge stink about Catholic prayers that are deemed offensive to Jews. Its time to practice what we preach.

Last edited by Thunder; 25th January 2009 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 25th January 2009, 12:23 PM   #2
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...Why do you own a jewish prayer book?

And what other religions do you suggest we try to censor?
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Old 25th January 2009, 12:27 PM   #3
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Do the women among Jews protest? Do they teach their male children to say the prayer? Is it wrong for a man to feel glad he was born a man and not a woman and give thanks for it? Should women even be offended because a man is glad he is a man and not a woman. Believe me, most women either don't care or are glad that their men are proud of their manhood. In fact, most women tend to be attracted to the macho type guys-the bad boys, as some call them and consider those who don't flaunt their maculinity nice but too wimpy.
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Old 25th January 2009, 12:35 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post

This prayer is said every morning by millions of Jews around the world.
Really? Millions? Wow! What an assertion! What an outrage!

But wait, the original post lacks that pesky little thing called "evidence" for the claim that the prayer is said daily by "millions of Jews."

There are something like 13 million Jews in the world. I am pretty sure that this is a traditional Askanazi prayer. That would be something like 9 million total population. Let's assume that roughly 50% are women (and that women don't say a prayer thanking god that they were not born women).

This leaves a total available population of 4.5 million Jews that might be eligible to say this prayer of which you speak.

Guess what--Reform, Conservative, and Modern Orthodox Ashanazi Jews don't say this prayer, and have not done so for years. You would pretty much have to find a Heridi Jew to find someone who said this traditional prayer every day. There are about 550,000 Heridi in the world. Again, since women don't say the prayer, this leaves you with a total of something like 225,000 Jews who would say this prayer every day. Even assuming that there are some old-timers outside of the Heridi ranks who might say this prayer, it would be a very small percentage.

Simply put--your initial position that this prayer is said every morning by "Millions of Jews" is patently false.
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Old 25th January 2009, 12:54 PM   #5
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Do the women among Jews protest? Do they teach their male children to say the prayer? Is it wrong for a man to feel glad he was born a man and not a woman and give thanks for it?
When the obvious rationale for saying the prayer is that women are viewed as inferior (apparently as inferior as slaves) by the people making the prayer - yes. Absolutely. The gentile part I understand - we're apparently destined for Hellfire. Slavery, likewise. But a woman? What would the reaction be if the woman started thanking God they were not born men? Or if we "gentiles" started thanking whatever higher powers we subscribe to that we were not born Jews. There would be an outrage. But as Tsar says, there's reform. I doubt, until I have been shown evidence to the contrary, that Jews say this prayer any more than they, say... stone people who gather sticks on the Sabbath.

Quote:
...Why do you own a jewish prayer book?
Isn't he Jewish?

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Old 25th January 2009, 12:57 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Twiler View Post
...Why do you own a jewish prayer book?

And what other religions do you suggest we try to censor?
I am a Jew silly boy. I got it at my Bar-Mitzvah.
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Old 25th January 2009, 12:59 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
When the obvious rationale for saying the prayer is that women are viewed as inferior (apparently as inferior as slaves) by the people making the prayer - yes. Absolutely. The gentile part I understand - we're apparently destined for Hellfire. Slavery, likewise. But a woman? What would the reaction be if the woman started thanking God they were not born men? Or if we "gentiles" started thanking whatever higher powers we subscribe to that we were not born Jews. There would be an outrage. But as Tsar says, there's reform. I doubt, until I have been shown evidence to the contrary, that Jews say this prayer any more than they, say... stone people who gather sticks on the Sabbath.

Isn't he Jewish?
Actually, hellfire isn't a Jewish concept.
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Old 25th January 2009, 01:03 PM   #8
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I have to ask, parky, are you a self-hating Jew?

Anyway, most prayers suck.
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Old 25th January 2009, 01:04 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by TsarBomba View Post
Really? Millions? Wow! What an assertion! What an outrage!

But wait, the original post lacks that pesky little thing called "evidence" for the claim that the prayer is said daily by "millions of Jews."
.
Eh...I received this Siddur at my Bar-Mitzvah. My Bar-Mitzvah at a Conservative synagogue in New York City. I see no reason to think this prayer is NOT said by millions of Jewish men all over the world, every morning.

It was published by The Complete Artscroll Sidur, Mesorah Publications, Ltd., 1984. I believe this is THE standard Siddur given out to all Jewish young men on their Bar-Mitzvah. And it is half Hebrew-half English..which is a halmark of a non-Orthodox prayer book.

At the bottom of the page with this prayer, there is a explenation and justification for their prayer. It says that Jews and Jewish men have a special mission and responcibilities that women and Gentiles do not. Hence the prayer is not offensive.

I'm sorry, but if Muslims daily prayed "thank you Allah for not making me a Jew", we would be allllll over it!!!

....and you know it.
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Old 25th January 2009, 01:04 PM   #10
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The virulence of your anti-semitism leads me to believe that "ye do protesteth too much." Just remember, if you are indeed a non-goy entertaining the idea of backsliding into their rubbish, turning your back on your own isn't a good idea. It's all you have when the rubber meets the road so to speak.
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Old 25th January 2009, 01:05 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Morrigan View Post
I have to ask, parky, are you a self-hating Jew?

Anyway, most prayers suck.
There are many things within Judaism that I am not fond of.

I think if I was truly a self-hating Jew..I would simply convert and no longer be a Jew.

I will never convert. I know who and what I am and its gonna stay that way till the day I die.

I believe in mending it....not ending it.
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Old 25th January 2009, 01:08 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by angelsaramark View Post
The virulence of your anti-semitism leads me to believe that "ye do protesteth too much." Just remember, if you are indeed a non-goy entertaining the idea of backsliding into their rubbish, turning your back on your own isn't a good idea. It's all you have when the rubber meets the road so to speak.
Is it anti-Catholic to critisize offensive prayers in the Catholic liturgy?

Is it anti-Christian to call Martin Luther an anti-Semite?

Is it anti-Islamic to call out Immams for making anti-Jewish and anti-Christian statements?

No? So why is it anti-Semitic to critisize certain religious ideas in Judaism and call for our evolving into a more modern and humane faith?

What are we if we think we are perfect and immune from criticism???
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Old 25th January 2009, 01:11 PM   #13
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We can find a bunch of anarchronistic aspects in any religion. Personally, I agree with the more general sentiment that Radrook was making, finding out what we are being happy with it and being the best "what ever you are" you can be.

It's a good lesson to learn. Unfortunately, many religions limit who they think deserve that contentment.

If you are gay, you should be happy to be gay. If you are striaght, be happy. IF you are a woman, be happy to be a woman. If you are a transgender, well, be happy that we can do some things about that now.
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Old 25th January 2009, 01:15 PM   #14
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Like I said, I will never stop being a Jew. Even though I clearly have the choice to. But I want Judaism to be a better religion than it currently is.

Judaism is not static. Its evolves..and has evolved. Nothing wrong with evolving a little more.

I think this prayer should be stricken.
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Old 25th January 2009, 01:16 PM   #15
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There is a female counterpart to this prayer, though to be honest it is not quite the same: "Blessed are You.....for having made me according to His will."

To my eyes the natural temptation is to read it thus:

male prayer: Thanks for making me top dog
female prayer: Thanks for the near miss

However there are many sites which give interpretations of these passages and explain them quite differently.

ETA: Parky has already made this point about interpretation while I was posting, I see

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Old 25th January 2009, 01:53 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Radrook View Post
Do the women among Jews protest? Do they teach their male children to say the prayer? Is it wrong for a man to feel glad he was born a man and not a woman and give thanks for it? Should women even be offended because a man is glad he is a man and not a woman. Believe me, most women either don't care or are glad that their men are proud of their manhood. In fact, most women tend to be attracted to the macho type guys-the bad boys, as some call them and consider those who don't flaunt their maculinity nice but too wimpy.
Originally Posted by joobz View Post
We can find a bunch of anarchronistic aspects in any religion. Personally, I agree with the more general sentiment that Radrook was making, finding out what we are being happy with it and being the best "what ever you are" you can be.

It's a good lesson to learn. Unfortunately, many religions limit who they think deserve that contentment.

If you are gay, you should be happy to be gay. If you are striaght, be happy. IF you are a woman, be happy to be a woman. If you are a transgender, well, be happy that we can do some things about that now.
There is a big difference between, "I'm happy I'm a woman," and, "Thank God I'm not a man." The second statement carries an implication of superiority.

As Parky says, what about, "Thank God I'm not black"? Or , "Thank God I'm not Arab"? Or, "Thank God I'm not a Jew"?
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Old 25th January 2009, 02:02 PM   #17
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Quote:
At the bottom of the page with this prayer, there is a explenation and justification for their prayer. It says that Jews and Jewish men have a special mission and responcibilities that women and Gentiles do not. Hence the prayer is not offensive.
"I thank God for not making me a Negro? Oh, you see, I don't like Negros... what? That's offensive, too?".

Quote:
The virulence of your anti-semitism
Aw, stow it. We live in 2009, in free countries, and like it or not we are going to criticize Jews and Israel like everybody else unless you have a very good reason why we shouldn't. Deal with it.

Oh, and Semite is written with a capital s. If you're going to be all protective of them, at least spell their name right.

Quote:
There is a female counterpart to this prayer, though to be honest it is not quite the same: "Blessed are You.....for having made me according to His will.
"I see I was made a woman and not a free man, God, but you probably had your reasons for making me inferior, so I forgive you".

Quote:
Do the women among Jews protest?
Forgive me for making a comparison that's not quite in proportion to the matter at hand, but Muslim females do not complain against circumcision of little girls either - they think it's part of the culture and "just the way it is", and while it's an extreme handicap to have your vagina sewn shut, they still do it to their own little girls when they grow up.

The point is that sometimes people aren't able to see the injustice they live in. Doesn't make it any less unjust.

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Old 25th January 2009, 02:20 PM   #18
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I have no doubt that this prayer was conceived many many centuries ago, when ALL religions felt superior to non-believers. It was clearly not unusual for Jews to feel superior..or at least be glad they were not born non-Jews.

But the fact is, we are now in the 21st century. Jews make it their business to pick through the Catholic and Orthodox liturgy in search of anything that might be considered offensive. And when they do find it..they yell and scream to high heaven that "it must be removed in the name of peace and brotherhood!!!"

With this in mind..and as a legitimate context, I feel there is nothing wrong in thinking that Jewish prayers which are in any way offensive to non-Jews should also be removed.

Whats good for the goose..is good for the gander. Either put up or shut up. Practise what you preach. If we can dish it...we should be able to take it.

You get the point.

However, if Jews feel that it is perfectly o.k. to demand that Catholics, Muslims, Eastern Orthodox remove and/all prayers that they consider anti-Jewish....but it is NOT ok to ask Jews to do the same thing..then Jews certainly have a problem.
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Old 25th January 2009, 02:44 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
But the fact is, we are now in the 21st century. Jews make it their business to pick through the Catholic and Orthodox liturgy in search of anything that might be considered offensive. And when they do find it..they yell and scream to high heaven that "it must be removed in the name of peace and brotherhood!!!"
Do you happen to have any examples of things actually being removed from any Catholic or Orthodox liturgy because (I emphasize 'because' and not "after") Jews demanded that it be removed?
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Old 25th January 2009, 02:52 PM   #20
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Yes. Several offensive terms used for Jews were removed from the Catholic liturgy a few years ago. I think it referred to stiff-necked Jews, or something to that effect.

According to Wikipedia:

The cult of Simon of Trent was disbanded in 1965 by Pope Paul VI, and the shrine erected to him was dismantled. He was removed from the calendar, and his future veneration was forbidden, though a handful of extremists still promote the narrative as a fact.

And the Pope removed references to the "blindness of the Jews" from another prayer.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=11673

And this again, from Wikipedia:

This new understanding of the relationship between Christians and Jews is reflected in the revised liturgy of Good Friday in a particular way. The ancient Good Friday Prayer of the Roman Rite had Catholics praying for the "perfidious Jews" that they might be converted to the truth. The ancient sense of the Latin word "perfidis" in that context was "unbelieving", yet the English cognate "perfidious" had, over the centuries, gradually acquired the sense of "treacherous." In order to eliminate misunderstanding on this point,
Pope Pius XII ordered in 1955 that, in Catholic liturgical books, the Latin word "perfidis" be properly translated "unbelieving", ensuring that the prayer be understood in its original sense: praying for the Jews who remained "unbelieving" concerning the Messiah. Indeed, the same adjective was used in many of the ancient rituals for receiving non-Christian converts into the Catholic Church.

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Old 25th January 2009, 05:20 PM   #21
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parky, you are mind-bogglingly ill-informed about the religion (and the people) you take it upon yourself to describe.

Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
I see no reason to think this prayer is NOT said by millions of Jewish men all over the world, every morning.

I believe this is THE standard Siddur given out to all Jewish young men on their Bar-Mitzvah.
No, parky, there is no "THE standard Siddur". Unlike the Tanakh, the liturgy is not (regarded as) sacred. The form of your siddur is specific to your branch, or school, of Judaism.

As a member of the Movement for Reform Judaism (UK Reform synagogue - understand it as part-way between the US Reform and Conservative synagogues), I can assure you that my siddur does not include anything remotely corresponding to this prayer. As TsarBomba pointed out, the various reform movements rejected it (and the whole sexist shebang) decades ago.

Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
I will never convert. I know who and what I am and its gonna stay that way till the day I die.

I believe in mending it....not ending it.
Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
So why is it anti-Semitic to critisize certain religious ideas in Judaism and call for our evolving into a more modern and humane faith?
Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
Like I said, I will never stop being a Jew. Even though I clearly have the choice to. But I want Judaism to be a better religion than it currently is.

Judaism is not static. Its evolves..and has evolved. Nothing wrong with evolving a little more.

I think this prayer should be stricken.
Oddly enough, your views are very far from original. The early reform movements in Germany and England got there nearly 200 years before you. You don't need to campaign for a non-sexist Judaism - your {multiple-great}-grandparents' generation already did that.

btw, I don't suspect you of being a fraud (like INRM). I think you are genuinely Jewish - and genuinely ignorant.
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Old 25th January 2009, 05:27 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
Yes. Several offensive terms used for Jews were removed from the Catholic liturgy a few years ago. I think it referred to stiff-necked Jews, or something to that effect.

According to Wikipedia:

The cult of Simon of Trent was disbanded in 1965 by Pope Paul VI, and the shrine erected to him was dismantled. He was removed from the calendar, and his future veneration was forbidden, though a handful of extremists still promote the narrative as a fact.

And the Pope removed references to the "blindness of the Jews" from another prayer.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=11673

And this again, from Wikipedia:

This new understanding of the relationship between Christians and Jews is reflected in the revised liturgy of Good Friday in a particular way. The ancient Good Friday Prayer of the Roman Rite had Catholics praying for the "perfidious Jews" that they might be converted to the truth. The ancient sense of the Latin word "perfidis" in that context was "unbelieving", yet the English cognate "perfidious" had, over the centuries, gradually acquired the sense of "treacherous." In order to eliminate misunderstanding on this point,
Pope Pius XII ordered in 1955 that, in Catholic liturgical books, the Latin word "perfidis" be properly translated "unbelieving", ensuring that the prayer be understood in its original sense: praying for the Jews who remained "unbelieving" concerning the Messiah. Indeed, the same adjective was used in many of the ancient rituals for receiving non-Christian converts into the Catholic Church.
The current Pope has just let the conservatives put the offending prayer back in the official liturgy as part of the Latin Mass. And re-admitted a Holocaust Denier who had been excommunicated.
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Old 25th January 2009, 05:41 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Elizabeth I View Post
There is a big difference between, "I'm happy I'm a woman," and, "Thank God I'm not a man." The second statement carries an implication of superiority.

As Parky says, what about, "Thank God I'm not black"? Or , "Thank God I'm not Arab"? Or, "Thank God I'm not a Jew"?
Very good point. I was attempting to be generous with wording.
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Old 25th January 2009, 07:18 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
parky, you are mind-bogglingly ill-informed about the religion (and the people) you take it upon yourself to describe.



No, parky, there is no "THE standard Siddur". Unlike the Tanakh, the liturgy is not (regarded as) sacred. The form of your siddur is specific to your branch, or school, of Judaism. .
Mod WarningEdited and infracted for a fairly unclever incivility.
Posted By:Tricky
...why don't you actually look in your synagogues's daily prayer book..in the morning prayer section..and see if it is there.

i bet ya 10$ that its there.

Last edited by Tricky; 26th January 2009 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 25th January 2009, 07:44 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
Eh...I received this Siddur at my Bar-Mitzvah. My Bar-Mitzvah at a Conservative synagogue in New York City. I see no reason to think this prayer is NOT said by millions of Jewish men all over the world, every morning.
.

Name ten. Seriously. Name ten non-Heridi Jews who say this prayer on a daily basis.

And even if this prayer were part of Jewish daily life, how many Jews actually strap on the old tallis and tefilyn every morning and say a prayer. What percentage of secular jews (the majority) do? Zero. What percentage of Reform jews do? Next to zero. What percentage of conservative Jews do? A little bit more than zero. Did your Dad say this prayer daily? How often did you say your prayers daily before you lost your faith? How many of your friends said any prayers daily after their bar-mitzvah? The answer, of course, is that almost nobody outside of the orthodox say prayers on a daily basis. And to use your own words "And you know it."
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Old 25th January 2009, 07:48 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post

i bet ya 10$ that its there.
The official Reform and Conservative prayer books have this modern alternative instead of your sexist accusation: "Praised are You O' Lord . . . who has placed on me the responsibilities of a Jew."

Of course, you probably think that this is racist too.
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Old 25th January 2009, 07:51 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by TsarBomba View Post
.

Name ten. Seriously. Name ten non-Heridi Jews who say this prayer on a daily basis.

And even if this prayer were part of Jewish daily life, how many Jews actually strap on the old tallis and tefilyn every morning and say a prayer. What percentage of secular jews (the majority) do? Zero. What percentage of Reform jews do? Next to zero. What percentage of conservative Jews do? A little bit more than zero. Did your Dad say this prayer daily? How often did you say your prayers daily before you lost your faith? How many of your friends said any prayers daily after their bar-mitzvah? The answer, of course, is that almost nobody outside of the orthodox say prayers on a daily basis. And to use your own words "And you know it."
Most modern and ultra-Orthodox Jews say this prayer. I said this prayer when I was in my Conservative yeshiva.

Like I said, I got this from my Conservative synagogue, where men and woman sit together, and women read from the Torah.

...and we even have black Jews!!!!

Last edited by Thunder; 25th January 2009 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 25th January 2009, 07:52 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by TsarBomba View Post
The official Reform and Conservative prayer books have this modern alternative instead of your sexist accusation: "Praised are You O' Lord . . . who has placed on me the responsibilities of a Jew."

Of course, you probably think that this is racist too.
what is the name, publisher, and date of publication of this book?

i'd like to see it.

thanks.

and no.....if they changed it to the words you say..that's all dandy with me.
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Old 25th January 2009, 07:56 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
what is the name, publisher, and date of publication of this book?

i'd like to see it.

thanks.

and no.....if they changed it to the words you say..that's all dandy with me.
It took me about ten seconds to find this with a simple Google search. And since you are the proponent of this assertion that the prayer is said by millions of Jews every day, how about you provide names, publishers, and copyright dates for any current prayer books published that contain the prayer of which you speak.
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Old 25th January 2009, 08:50 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post

I'm sorry, but if Muslims daily prayed "thank you Allah for not making me a Jew", we would be allllll over it!!!

....and you know it.
I do?

And what else do I know, O Wise One?

Are you trying out for the challenge, or just trying to start a religious war at JREF? Let us know when someone tries to fly jet fallacies into the twin Larsons, ok?
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Old 26th January 2009, 08:05 AM   #31
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Mod WarningPlease attack the argument and not the arguer.
Posted By:Tricky

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Old 26th January 2009, 09:00 AM   #32
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Iirc, the apologetics for that particular prayer try to turn it around. Men are not "as close to god" as women, so they have more religious obligations. Slaves have fewer religious obligations because of their position. I can't remember the specific wording for the non-Jew part. The end result is that Jewish men have more religious obligations and the prayer is "thanks for making/letting me work hard for you, G-d." Not that it makes sense, but that's one explanation that does not involve superiority/inferiority.

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Old 26th January 2009, 09:07 AM   #33
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I remember seeing those printed in the sedurs my synogogue used, when I was younger, but we always skipped over them. The Rabbi had some explanation for them, but I don't remember exactly what it was, but only that it was accepted among his fellow conservative Rabbis to ignore them.

I think the newer sedurs they are using don't even have them printed. Although, it's been a looong time since I've set foot in there, myself.

ETA: I remember a detail about a section in the sedur, where women were supposed to read one thing (don't remember exactly what, but it wasn't "thank you for not making me a man"), and the men were supposed to read another, which did say "thank you for not making me a woman".
But, in our synogouge everyone was instructed to read only what the women were supposed to read, in that part.
And, again, I don't think the newer books even include the "not a woman" option, at all.
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Old 26th January 2009, 09:10 AM   #34
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I've heard that one, too, CT. Doesn't really excuse anything, I agree, and I'd even go as far as to say that it doesn't solve a damned thing.
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Old 26th January 2009, 10:08 AM   #35
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Some questions. I has them.

parky, have you ever said this prayer? Have you ever been advised to say this prayer? Do you remember who gave you the Siddur containing this prayer? Do you know if they say the prayer? Do you personally know any Jew, anywhere, at any time, who has said this prayer? Have you personally asked any Jew of your acquaintance about this prayer? Do you, in fact, know anything at all about how real, live, Jews think and feel about this prayer?
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Old 26th January 2009, 11:12 AM   #36
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I suspect there probably are a few sects of Orthodox Jews who still say prayers such as these. That does NOT excuse them. But, it hardly counts as a widespread problem amongst all of Judaism, either.
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Old 26th January 2009, 02:48 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
rather then yapping your mouth and assuming you are right..why don't you actually look in your synagogues's daily prayer book..in the morning prayer section..and see if it is there.

i bet ya 10$ that its there.

I'm trying to work out what could be going on in your mind.

I stated clearly that my siddur does not include that prayer. You want to make a bet about a book you've never seen and have no knowledge of, that I am sitting here looking at ...

Let me try again.

You seem to think that the different strands of Judaism have the same liturgy, as we have the same Torah. That is just plain false. Leaving aside the changes and divergences over time in the orthodox tradition, the reform and other modern movements have discarded and replaced much of the orthodox liturgy - and I should have thought a moderately well-informed person (Jewish or not) would know that.

I don't know how to prove that my Movement for Reform Judaism siddur doesn't contain the prayer. The text isn't online, and I can't scan and post a non-existent prayer. Will this do (it's referring to the US reform siddur, not the UK)?

Quote:
Sermon given January 12, 1996, by Rabbi Barry H. Block

Each morning, when Orthodox and Conservative Jews say their daily blessings, the men among them recite the following prayer: Baruch Atah Adonai, Eloheinu Melech ha-olam, shelo asani ishah; "Blessed are You, O Lord our God, Ruler of the Universe, Who did not make me a woman." At the same time, women are instructed to say a prayer praising God for making them "according to God's will." This women's prayer encourages women to accept their fate, the same destiny which the men rejoice in having avoided.

Now, I have to admit that I have occasionally been tempted to recite the men's blessing, praising God for not making me a woman. That occurs when I'm at the Majestic Theatre and I have to use the restroom. When the line for the ladies' room is ten times longer than the men's, I've been known to praise God shelo asani ishah, for not making me a woman.

In all seriousness, the idea of saying a prayer to thank God for not having made me a woman is offensive. It reinforces a long tradition of male superiority and the degradation of women. I am glad that our Reform prayerbook does not include the prayer shelo asani ishah, praising God for not making me a woman.

I wonder what was the reason behind your OP. It is based on a completely false assertion, it spreads misinformation, and portrays Judaism and Jews in a worse light than is justified by the facts. As, of course, do so many of your posts.

I really hope that no-one reading this thread is foolish enough to take you as an authority on matters Jewish.
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Old 26th January 2009, 02:59 PM   #38
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what is the name of your Siddur? when was it published? who published it?

the fact remains that this prayer is standard in Orthodox Siddurs and probably many Conservative ones. My father said this prayer daily as a student and he is positive Orthodox Jews still say this prayer.

if Reform Jews do not, I consider that to be a major improvement.

anyways, id like to see your Siddur.

Last edited by Thunder; 26th January 2009 at 03:01 PM.
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Old 26th January 2009, 03:04 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
parky, have you ever said this prayer? Have you ever been advised to say this prayer? Do you remember who gave you the Siddur containing this prayer? Do you know if they say the prayer? Do you personally know any Jew, anywhere, at any time, who has said this prayer? Have you personally asked any Jew of your acquaintance about this prayer? Do you, in fact, know anything at all about how real, live, Jews think and feel about this prayer?
yes. i said this prayer every time i davined as a young student at a modern yeshiva. the siddur was given to me by my Rabbi, after my bar- mitzvah at a modern Conservative synagogue.

i spoke to my father yesterday, and he says he is very well aware of the prayer, said it regularly as he was raised an orthodox jew, and assumed that modern and ultra-orthodox jews today still say the prayer.

if you would like, i can contact my uncle, aunt, 3 cousins, and various cousins in-law, who are all semi-modern orthodox, to see if they say it.
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Old 26th January 2009, 03:06 PM   #40
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Mod Warning Edited for civility. Cut this stuff out, guys.
Posted By:Tricky

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