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Old 26th January 2009, 05:24 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
what is the name of your Siddur? when was it published? who published it?

the fact remains that this prayer is standard in Orthodox Siddurs and probably many Conservative ones. My father said this prayer daily as a student and he is positive Orthodox Jews still say this prayer.

if Reform Jews do not, I consider that to be a major improvement.

anyways, id like to see your Siddur.
I am happy to provide this information that you ask me for (hint: perhaps better to inform yourself of the facts before making controversial OPs).

The current siddur is Seder Ha-T’fillot (Forms of Prayer), published by the Movement for Reform Judaism, 2008. The previous version was "Forms of Prayer for Jewish Worship", published by the Reform Synagogues of Great Britain, 1977 (RSGB changed its name to MRJ in 2005).

One major difference between the two editions is the gender-neutral language, but neither contains the prayer. I don't go further back than that, but, knowing the history of the RSGB and why it was set up, I'd be seriously amazed if any of its books ever contained it.

parky, no-one is disputing that orthodox siddurs still include this obnoxious form of words. There seems to be some doubt whether current conservative siddurs do, but in any case the conservatives don't believe the liturgy is sacred, and congregations and individuals are free to reject any part of it they feel goes against their religious principles. Reform siddurs don't include it (and AFAIK never did).

As for the orthodox, there's no reason to suppose that the prayer has any real meaning for most of them. Probably most never think about it - it's a tradition and a duty. I would make the same point about all hateful, intolerant and anachronistic writings in the Torah and the Koran, and associated books, and in the liturgies of both religions. Moderate, intelligent, compassionate people manage to overlook this stuff - they think (wrongly, in my opinion) that it's a price they have to pay to hold onto their religious and ethnic heritage.
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Old 26th January 2009, 05:33 PM   #42
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i discussed this very issue with my dad last night. cause i know how soo very many words are said by orthodox jews during their morning prayers..i wondered if they ever actually pay attention to what they are actually saying.

my father said, that he was taught that even though you say the words are supposed to attempt to pay attention to everything one says. he called it "praying with intent".

thank you for taking the time to get the name of the less offensive prayer book. i am glad to know that the Reform Jews have evolved. though Reform Judaism really isnt my taste...because it just doesn't feel authentic enough for me.

ironic huh?

i should see what Conservative synagogues are using now. my bar-mitzvah was 19 years ago. maybe we use an updated book now.

Holy moley..there sure are a lot of Siddurs out there

Last edited by Thunder; 26th January 2009 at 05:41 PM.
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