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Old 11th February 2009, 02:37 PM   #1
yrreg
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What's wrong with this definition of God: maker of heaven and earth and everything?

Originally Posted by Mashuna View Post


[...]
Posted by yrreg
I am exasperated with atheists way of thinking and speaking, like repeating the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Santa Claus, Xenu, etc. argument against God which I understand to be:

"Maker of heaven and earth and everything."

I've asked before, but I'll try again. Do you have a better definition of God, because that one's really terrible. I mean it's just no use to your argument at all.

What's exactly, specifically wrong with my definition of God?
as maker of heaven and earth and everything.




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Old 11th February 2009, 02:45 PM   #2
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Too vague.
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Old 11th February 2009, 02:49 PM   #3
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I'd say, too vague. And I'd say, until heaven is proved to be real, how can you include that in a definition?
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Old 11th February 2009, 02:51 PM   #4
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Yes, it's too vague.

How are you supposed to know which people to hate from only that?
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Old 11th February 2009, 02:52 PM   #5
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That's not being exact and specific; please be exact and specific.

Originally Posted by Wally View Post
Too vague.


That's not being exact and specific; please be exact and specific.



That is why I am very exasperated in exchange of ideas with you guys, you tend to tergiversate and/or prevaricate and even calumniate, instead of being exact and specific in reacting to the issue.





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Old 11th February 2009, 02:53 PM   #6
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The problem is that you have yet to offer any supporting evidence that this is true.
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Old 11th February 2009, 02:54 PM   #7
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Please see the half dozen threads you've posted in where this was explained to you for pages and pages in formulations of various numbers of words.

In fact, I think this might be the challenge for this thread.

Who can tell me what's wrong with this definition in the form of a limerick? First one to do so can pick the next format.
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Old 11th February 2009, 02:54 PM   #8
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I we are simply discussing potential definitions of gods, there's no problem with it.

Just as I can define god as "a human-like father figure who lives on Mount Olympus and shoots lightning bolts at people" or "a creature made of spaghetti and meatballs that has supernatural powers".

Simply stating a definition has no relevance to the actual existence of the entity in question. And I'm just as justified in questioning/doubting/disbelieving the existence of Zeus or FSM as I am your god.

Heck, why don't I just define god as "the entity who created your god". My god is then, by definition, more powerful than yours. It has no actual impact on reality, of course...but if we're just talking definitions, then my god is, by definition, better than your god.
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Old 11th February 2009, 02:55 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by yrreg View Post
What's exactly, specifically wrong with my definition of God?
as maker of heaven and earth and everything.
Originally Posted by Wally View Post
Too vague.
Originally Posted by Minarvia View Post
I'd say, too vague.
Originally Posted by Tanstaafl View Post
Yes, it's too vague.
Originally Posted by yrreg View Post
That's not being exact and specific; please be exact and specific.

It's not exact and specific enough.
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Old 11th February 2009, 02:56 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by yrreg View Post
That's not being exact and specific; please be exact and specific.



That is why I am very exasperated in exchange of ideas with you guys, you tend to tergiversate and/or prevaricate and even calumniate, instead of being exact and specific in reacting to the issue.





Yrreg
But when people get exact and specific (even redundantly so) you demand that they write posts no longer than a few sentences.
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:02 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by yrreg View Post
What's exactly, specifically wrong with my definition of God?
as maker of heaven and earth and everything.


Yrreg
I like to define God as "The Sum of All Things". What's wrong with this definition?
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:07 PM   #12
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God is an imaginary figure used by the unethical to extract money and loyalty from honest people.
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:08 PM   #13
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A tergiversator named Gerry
Who's grammatic usage was hairy
Offered a proof of God
Quite logically flawed
Was evidence lacking? Yes, very


Next contestant must write a Haiku. If Dr. A or Mercutio join this thread perhaps one will treat us to a sonnet.
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:09 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by yrreg View Post
That's not being exact and specific; please be exact and specific.
That is why I am very exasperated in exchange of ideas with you guys, you tend to tergiversate and/or prevaricate and even calumniate, instead of being exact and specific in reacting to the issue.
Yrreg
Because that definition can just as well apply to the laws of physics. Not enough differentiation from natural phenomenon.
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:12 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by yrreg View Post
That is why I am very exasperated in exchange of ideas with you guys, you tend to tergiversate and/or prevaricate and even calumniate, instead of being exact and specific in reacting to the issue
Drop the thesaurus and BACK AWAY SLOWLY!
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:13 PM   #16
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It doesn't mean anything.
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:17 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
A tergiversator named Gerry
Who's grammatic usage was hairy
Offered a proof of God
Quite logically flawed
Was evidence lacking? Yes, very


Next contestant must write a Haiku. If Dr. A or Mercutio join this thread perhaps one will treat us to a sonnet.
Guy talks about God.
Does he speak English with skill?
Apparently not.

And the problems with the definition are:

1. The assumption of the existence of heaven.
2. The assumption of a unified creator.
3. The assumption all things requiring a creator.

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Old 11th February 2009, 03:21 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Next contestant must write a Haiku.

Yrreg makes demands.
Result can be nothing but
tergiversation.
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:22 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Twiler View Post
Guy talks about God.
Does he speak English with skill?
Apparently not.
Now you must choose the new form of Gozer the Traveler. And no Torgs, that's been done to death.
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:22 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by yrreg View Post
What's exactly, specifically wrong with my definition of God?
as maker of heaven and earth and everything.
Yrreg
Actually, if we were really to argue the definition on a logical level, then you are stating that God created three things:
Heaven
Earth
Everything
The way this is stated, "Heaven" and "Earth" are not included in "Everything"; they are somehow separate. But if "Everything" doesn't include "Heaven" and "Earth", then its not "Everything", is it?

You may argue that, obviously, that is not what you intended; and that it should be adjusted to say, "maker of Heaven and Earth and everything else"

But then, we have the problem of God himself. Would not god be included in "Everything"? If "Everything" doesn't include god, then again its not "Everything". So if God really created "Everything", then God created Himself. But that obviously just doesn't make sense.

So, from both logical and linguistic viewpoints, your definition just doesn't make sense.



Well...you asked!
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:25 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
Actually, if we were really to argue the definition on a logical level, then you are stating that God created three things:
Heaven
Earth
Everything
The way this is stated, "Heaven" and "Earth" are not included in "Everything"; they are somehow separate. But if "Everything" doesn't include "Heaven" and "Earth", then its not "Everything", is it?

You may argue that, obviously, that is not what you intended; and that it should be adjusted to say, "maker of Heaven and Earth and everything else"

But then, we have the problem of God himself. Would not god be included in "Everything"? If "Everything" doesn't include god, then again its not "Everything". So if God really created "Everything", then God created Himself. But that obviously just doesn't make sense.

So, from both logical and linguistic viewpoints, your definition just doesn't make sense.



Well...you asked!
Maybe Gerry is as witty as Douglas Adams? No, you're right. Probably not.
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:27 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Wally View Post
Too vague.
Originally Posted by yrreg View Post
That's not being exact and specific; please be exact and specific.
Nominated!

It's not too often you see someone reprimanded for a post by giving the meaning of that post.
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:30 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by yrreg View Post
What's exactly, specifically wrong with my definition of God?
as maker of heaven and earth and everything.

Yrreg
In truth, I see nothing inherently wrong with that definition. In fact, it's practically the exact definition given in the Nicene creed.

So, I say, go ahead and use that definition.

Now, all you need to do next is prove that there is indeed a maker of heaven and earth and everything.

You'll also need to prove there's a heaven, but I'll be happy if you can prove that the earth has a maker.
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
"Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

Last edited by joobz; 11th February 2009 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:31 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Now you must choose the new form of Gozer the Traveler. And no Torgs, that's been done to death.
Okay. Someone try expressing these threads in the form of a flow-chart.
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:35 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Now you must choose the new form of Gozer the Traveler. And no Torgs, that's been done to death.
Originally Posted by Twiler
Okay. Someone try expressing these threads in the form of a flow-chart.
Sorry, a sonnet has already been requested.

What can one do with an ideal idea
Which can only be said in very few words
Or tergiversation grows like chia
That evil atheists farm on the boards
And refuse to follow wordcount restraints
Leading to prevarication and hate
It truly would try the patience of saints
While I am left here to dangle my bait
Posting my questions until satisfied
That my definitions are well taken in
While all have agreed that atheists lied
As false evolution left them in sin
But I the believer never once strayed
From my true god the impossibly vague

Please forgive the meter.

Now we can do flowcharts
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:36 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by yrreg View Post
What's exactly, specifically wrong with my definition of God?
as maker of heaven and earth and everything.
It doesn't define your god, you're just summing up things you claim your god did.
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:40 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Now you must choose the new form of Gozer the Traveler. And no Torgs, that's been done to death.
Forget marshmallow men, I want a giant Natalie Portman made out of mackarel.
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:43 PM   #28
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Hey, I'm easy, I'll take Natalie Portman exactly as she is!
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:46 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Piscivore View Post
Forget marshmallow men, I want a giant Natalie Portman made out of mackarel.
Holy Mackerel...Piscivore can't even spell the word properly.
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:49 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Dumb All Over View Post
I like to define God as "The Sum of All Things". What's wrong with this definition?
After reading the bible, the best definition for the Christian God is arguably "The Scum of All Things".
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:52 PM   #31
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It is not a definition, yrreg. It explains nothing about the god you claim it defines.

I've pointed this out to you before. Here, for example.


Suffice to say that "maker of heaven and earth and everything" defines nothing.


It does not tell us if god is powerful, loving, good, evil, female, past, of if any of those terms even apply.

That is what is wrong with your "definition". It does not define anything.


Feel free to use it if you want, but don't go flinging accusations of "Tergiversator!" and "Non-Thinker!" when somebody tells you it fits the concept of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn, or the Great Green Arkleseizure.

You failed to provide information on your god that would rule such things out. Thus, with your "definition", you cannot claim those ideas are not your god.
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:56 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Piscivore View Post
Forget marshmallow men, I want a giant Natalie Portman made out of mackarel.
The proper way to serve Natalie Portman is covered with hot grits.
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Old 11th February 2009, 03:58 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Twiler View Post
Okay. Someone try expressing these threads in the form of a flow-chart.
Quote:
"Maker of heaven and earth and everything."
Okay..

Flow chart:

God --> makes heaven

God --> makes Earth

God --> makes everything

Everything =/= Heaven

Everything =/= Earth

God =/= Heaven

God =/= Earth

Therefore:

God c Everything (Sorry, that's the best I can do to get the "is a subset of" symbol)

Therefore:

God created God.

....what do I win?



oohh I hope it's Natalie Portman..... alive, please....no dressing...

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Old 11th February 2009, 03:59 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by JFrankA View Post
Okay..

Flow chart:

God --> makes heaven

God --> makes Earth

God --> makes everything

Everything =/= Heaven

Everything =/= Earth

God =/= Heaven

God =/= Earth

Therefore:

God c Everything (Sorry, that's the best I can do to get the "is a subset of" symbol)

Therefore:

God created God.

....did I get it?
Not bad!

You just need to pick the new form.
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Old 11th February 2009, 04:01 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Dumb All Over View Post
I like to define God as "The Sum of All Things".
Can we have that as a spreadsheet formula?
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Old 11th February 2009, 04:01 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by yrreg View Post
What's exactly, specifically wrong with my definition of God?
as maker of heaven and earth and everything.
I made my own breakfast today. Since I made it and not god, either god isn't god because he didn't make everything, or I am god because I made something that must be included by the term 'everything' even though it isn't everything itself.

Either way, your definition fails.
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Old 11th February 2009, 04:03 PM   #37
Merko
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Originally Posted by yrreg View Post
What's exactly, specifically wrong with my definition of God?

as maker of heaven and earth and everything.
If God made everything, then God made the table I'm sitting in front of. However, I made the table I'm sitting in front of. Therefore, it follows from your definition that I am God.

However, I am not God. You know this, because if I was God, I would be infallible, and therefore you can trust me absolutely on this matter.
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Old 11th February 2009, 04:03 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
Holy Mackerel...Piscivore can't even spell the word properly.
I make that sort of mistake often when I try to spell phonetically.
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Old 11th February 2009, 04:03 PM   #39
godless dave
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It's a good definition of the deist god. Most of the gods of existent religions have more attributes in addition to the ones you've listed: they intervene in human affairs, they have opinions about human behavior, and they seem to have emotions or something like them.
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Old 11th February 2009, 04:06 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Twiler View Post
Okay. Someone try expressing these threads in the form of a flow-chart.
Here you go!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg yrreg flow chart.jpg (53.0 KB, 80 views)
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