Are the solutions to seismic data unique?

Zeuzzz

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I was reading about my favorite crackpot theory the other day, Hollow Earth Theory, and stumbled upon the work of Jan Lamprecht. He is of the opinion that there are many separate possibilities and density profiles the Earth could have that would satisfy seismological data. He has come up with one of these that satisfies his beliefs about the interior of the Earth. Along with many other dubious geoligcal ideas that I'm sure people here could shoot down in a second if they can be bothered to read his website. You can see it here: http://www.hollowplanets.com/journal/Seismic01.asp

Lesson #3: Is there any Hollow Earth seismic model which allows waves to go around the Earth? The obvious problem posed by the theory is that seismic waves actually reach right across to the other side of the Earth. Scientists are therefore quite confident that the P waves must have passed through the core of the Earth and this tells them that there cannot be a cavity.

When I did my feasibility study (which is what my book is), I looked at the problem from every conceivable angle to see if there was any Hollow Earth model which made seismic sense. I found only one - I repeat - only one, which has any merits. All other Hollow Earth seismic models are failures. Take a look at it below.

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In the above model, I simply used the Earth's structure as scientists define it now. I replaced the Outer core with a cavity (I'll explain why later - because there is a sound reason for it). But the thing I changed was the structure of the Mantle. I wondered what would happen if density within a sphere did not increase uniformly as has been assumed. What if density actually DECREASES from a certain point onwards? You will notice all solid-earth seismology shows ray paths curving in a "U" back to the surface of the Earth. That is because density and pressure increases as you go deeper. But if, for some reason, density were to suddenly decrease, then the waves would curve in the opposite direction! I realised this, and you can see what then happens. In the middle of the Mantle, where density suddenly decreases, it causes seismic waves to travel around the cavity - right to the other side of the Earth!

You would be excused for believing that the waves might have passed through the core of the Earth when in fact nothing of the kind happened.


I would have dismissed it as someone talking about something he has no knowledge of, but I read a couple of reviews from scientists that made me think twice. Tom Van Flandern said “For merely showing us all that the inferred density profile of Earth's interior is not a unique solution of seismic data -- an important constraint for all theoreticians working in that area -- the book had already made itself worthwhile.” And also a review from Richard Baum (Director Mercury & Venus Sections, British Astronomical Association) said: “I must say you have stored your book with an enormous amount of information; much quite surprising, all stimulating. Essentially you are not only obliging us to take a fresh look at things but to observe from an unsuspected different position - the presumed impossible.”

For those unfamiliar with Hollow Earth theory discovery channel did a documentary about it years ago, a few minutes of it can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqpCcEYno9E The kind of theory thats fun to examine and checkout (like the equally silly, but somewhat less beliveable, flat earth theory), but its obviously all extremely unlikely.

So is his model a correct solution to seismological data? Are there any other ways to map out the internal density and structure of the Earth to independantly from the inferred seismological structure? (I have heard maybe HAARP technology using ELF/VLF Radio Waves could do this, but am not sure if this is public material, as I believe that at this point HAARP is a military based project)

Any seismologists on the forum that could take a good look at his solution? Quite a specialist subject, certainly above my head
 
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The mass of the Earth would be wildly out if it was hollow. That would be apparent from surface gravity and orbital mechanics.
 
So is his model a correct solution to seismological data?

Almost certainly not; structural mechanics alone are enough to confirm that. (Pressure increases with depth, more or less by definition. Even rock and metal solids will compress under the sort of pressures you see in the mantle, which means that density will have to increase with depth. What's the proposed mechanism that prevents this from happening?)

Are there any other ways to map out the internal density and structure of the Earth to independantly from the inferred seismological structure?

I suppose you could use something like the SuperKamioKande and measure neutrino absorption, which would do it. As the world revolves, the straight-line path from the sun (neutrino source) to the SKK detector would change, giving us an appropriate image.

But why bother? If the leading "alternate" solution is patently impossible, that sounds like a hell of a waste of expensive equipment.

I'm also, to be honest, not convinced that his method is even a viable alternate solution; his diagram suggests that energy should be actively focused at the point on the Earth directly opposed to the epicenter, and dropping off in all directions from there. I don't think seismologists see such a focusing effect, and it would be hard to miss.
 
The mass of the Earth would be wildly out if it was hollow. That would be apparent from surface gravity and orbital mechanics.

He says:

The key to all of our gravity is the mass of the Earth. If the mass of the Earth is wrong, then so are our estimates for those of other bodies. If the mass of the Earth has been overstated, then it follows that the masses of all other bodies in the solar system have also been overstated. If the Earth is hollow, then so too is every other planet in the solar system.


So the ratios of masses would stay the same and thus create the same force even though the total masses are out. We work out the masses of other bodies by using the mass of the Earth as a reference point (as first measured by cavendish), so this does make sense to an extent.

We shouldn't really look at his other ideas, I'm sure that they could all be picked apart one by one by people here. I was just curious about his idea that there are many solutions to seismological data and the one we use is not the only one. I'm sure that any professional seismologists could point to why this has been shown to not be true, I' m just curious as to why.
 
The mass of the Earth would be wildly out if it was hollow.

Wouldn't that depend on what the Earth was made of?

I mean, we assume that the core is nickel-iron because the density is about right, but I haven't personally gone and checked.

What if the core were hollow but we had an osmium-iridium sphere right where Captain Froot Loop suggested it? Wouldn't the total mass still check out?
 
He says:
The key to all of our gravity is the mass of the Earth.

No, we know the mass of the Earth directly.

We can measure the strength of the force of gravity between two arbitrary (measurable) objects in the lab. This gives us a value for the universal constant G.

We can then measure the force of attraction between an arbitrary (measurable) object and the Earth (we call this "weighing the object"); from the mass of the first object and the attraction, we can determine the mass of the Earth.

And once we know the mass of the Earth, we can figure out the masses for everything else.
 
You also have to wonder where the magnetosphere comes from if there is no liquid iron somewhere inside.

What's in there supporting the weight of the outerlayers? Air pressure?
 
He says:

The key to all of our gravity is the mass of the Earth. If the mass of the Earth is wrong, then so are our estimates for those of other bodies. If the mass of the Earth has been overstated, then it follows that the masses of all other bodies in the solar system have also been overstated. If the Earth is hollow, then so too is every other planet in the solar system.

So the sun is hollow? That means nuclear fusion isn't the source of sunlight and our understanding of nuclear physics is flawed. Ergo, we never built the hydrogen bomb.
 
So the sun is hollow? That means nuclear fusion isn't the source of sunlight and our understanding of nuclear physics is flawed. Ergo, we never built the hydrogen bomb.

Ever read the "Jesus Factor"? :)

Baaaad SciFi, and I don't mean SF.
 
He says:

The key to all of our gravity is the mass of the Earth. If the mass of the Earth is wrong, then so are our estimates for those of other bodies. If the mass of the Earth has been overstated, then it follows that the masses of all other bodies in the solar system have also been overstated. If the Earth is hollow, then so too is every other planet in the solar system.

As drkitten has pointed out, this is wrong. More specifically, it's been wrong for over 200 years - google "Cavendish experiment".
 
I'm also, to be honest, not convinced that his method is even a viable alternate solution; his diagram suggests that energy should be actively focused at the point on the Earth directly opposed to the epicenter, and dropping off in all directions from there. I don't think seismologists see such a focusing effect, and it would be hard to miss.

Antipodal focussing is observed. And has been known about for a while.

This abstract even implies that this could be due to, on some solar system bodies, to the focussing of a wavefronts on a planet "with a low velocity core sorrounded [sic] by a mantle with a higher wave speed".
 
As drkitten has pointed out, this is wrong. More specifically, it's been wrong for over 200 years - google "Cavendish experiment".

It's been wrong for much longer than that. The mass of the earth has almost no effect on the motion of any astronomical body other than the moon. For example, the orbit of the earth around the sun depends only on the mass of the sun - not the mass of the earth.

And then as you say, there are many earth-based experiments that verify Newton's law on every length-scale down to about a tenth of a millimeter.
 
He says:

The key to all of our gravity is the mass of the Earth. If the mass of the Earth is wrong, then so are our estimates for those of other bodies. If the mass of the Earth has been overstated, then it follows that the masses of all other bodies in the solar system have also been overstated. If the Earth is hollow, then so too is every other planet in the solar system.

So the ratios of masses would stay the same and thus create the same force even though the total masses are out. We work out the masses of other bodies by using the mass of the Earth as a reference point (as first measured by cavendish), so this does make sense to an extent.

I measured G and therefore the mass of the earth at university. If the mass of the earth is wrong then not only is something up with gravity but there are far more serious consequences.

You see the key to the mass of the earth is the mass of the lead balls whose attraction to one another I measured. The key to that is the calibration of scales around the world, so if that is wrong then my weed dealer is overcharging me. This is a very serious accusation. Forget about the enitre universe having less mass than orginally thought, forget about Einstein being radically wrong despite the conformatory evidence of GPS satalites and gravitational lensing. I want the fine skunk bud I paid for but didn't get!
 
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It's been wrong for much longer than that. The mass of the earth has almost no effect on the motion of any astronomical body other than the moon. For example, the orbit of the earth around the sun depends only on the mass of the sun - not the mass of the earth.

True, but I'm not sure it's relevant in context. The `argument' seems to be: maybe the mass of the earth, and all astronomical bodies, is much less than we think, and G is much larger. I'm sure there are many ways of finding a problem with this theory, but wasn't Cavendish's measurement the first?
 
True, but I'm not sure it's relevant in context. The `argument' seems to be: maybe the mass of the earth, and all astronomical bodies, is much less than we think, and G is much larger. I'm sure there are many ways of finding a problem with this theory, but wasn't Cavendish's measurement the first?

Bouguer got a rough result for the density of the Earth on Chimborazo sixty years earlier, good enough to conclude it wasn't hollow. And Maskelyne's Schiehallion experiment was some twenty years before Cavendish.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=whA9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA52
 
You see the key to the mass of the earth is the mass of the lead balls whose attraction to one another I measured.


He says:

How can we be sure that the Earth really has the mass accorded it by Newtonian gravity? As gravity is so unbelievably weak, is an experiment using two lead balls really representative of the entire Earth? No, of course not. There is electrical charge to account for, and also magnetic forces and electromagnetic forces, that are a lot stonger than gravity, that the current theory does not take into account. [.....]

Newton's Law of Gravity; one of the most useful mathematical formulae ever devised. This little formula has made space travel and the exploration of the Solar System possible. It made satellites possible. . . . Scientists use this little formula to gain an understanding of galaxies far away, and indeed the behaviour of the universe as a whole. It is now more than 300 years since Newton devised this little formula; and we still do now know what causes gravity.

Newtonian gravity is accurately measured and proven with the bounds of the solar system. However, Newtonian gravity remains untested in other areas. All we have is a formula. This formula has been used to determine the mass of the Earth. This is based on the concept that for each mass of M inside the Earth, it exerts and attractive force of F. We do not know the valid range for Newtonian gravity. Inside Newton's formula is G. G is the "universal gravitational constant". It is assumed, and assumed is the correct word here, that each mass of M exerts the same force of F regardless of where in the universe it may be placed. It is also assumed that each mass of M exerts the same force F whether it lies on the surface of the Earth or whether it be deep inside the Earth. When using the Cavendish balance to determine the mass of the Earth, it is assumed that each particle exerts a fixed force upon all others. This assumption rules out the very real possibility that particles near the surface of a planet might exert a force greater than those deep down. The key to all of our gravity is the mass of the Earth. If the mass of the Earth is wrong, then so are our estimates for those of other bodies. If the mass of the Earth has been overstated, then it follows that the masses of all other bodies in the solar system have also been overstated. If the Earth is hollow, then so too is every other planet in the solar system.


I should say that I dont agree with him. Either he deserves a nobel prize for overturning some of the most established principles in physics ever devised or he's speaking out his ass. Just thought I would point out that he has at least tried to explain some of the evidence against his idea, making him not completely impervious to reality. But then again, he thinks that the Earth is Hollow. So he's obviously got some issues with reality.

The key to that is the calibration of scales around the world, so if that is wrong then my weed dealer is overcharging me.


Wait, you have a weed dealer that doesn't overcharge you anyway? Whats his number? :)
 
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How can we be sure that the Earth really has the mass accorded it by Newtonian gravity? As gravity is so unbelievably weak, is an experiment using two lead balls really representative of the entire Earth? No, of course not.

[...]
I should say that I dont agree with him. Either he deserves a nobel prize for overturning some of the most established principles in physics ever devised or he's speaking out his ass.

And I think it's fairly obvious which.

As soon as you [generally] start resorting to special pleading about "well, yes, this is one of the most well-established scientific principles in history, but it doesn't apply in this case," your credibility starts to drop.


My Cousin Vinny said:
Vinny Gambini: So, Mr. Tipton, how could it take you 5 minutes to cook your grits when it takes the entire grit eating world 20 minutes?
Mr. Tipton: I don't know, I'm a fast cook I guess.
Vinny Gambini: I'm sorry I was all the way over here I couldn't hear you did you say you were a fast cook, that's it?
Mr. Tipton: Yeah.
Vinny Gambini: Are we to believe that boiling water soaks into a grit faster in your kitchen than anywhere else on the face of the earth?
Mr. Tipton: I don't know.
Vinny Gambini: Well, I guess the laws of physics cease to exist on top of your stove. Were these magic grits? Did you buy them from the same guy who sold Jack his beanstalk beans?

ETA: I submit that Captain Froot Loops is in approximately the same position as Mr. Tipton.
 
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How can we be sure that the Earth really has the mass accorded it by Newtonian gravity? As gravity is so unbelievably weak, is an experiment using two lead balls really representative of the entire Earth? No, of course not. There is electrical charge to account for, and also magnetic forces and electromagnetic forces, that are a lot stonger than gravity, that the current theory does not take into account. [.....]

Two neutral, non-magnetic objects do not act on each other by the EM force.
 

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