ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 7th March 2009, 08:07 AM   #1
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
Otzi The Iceman

http://www.laughtergenealogy.com/bin...sc/iceman.html

Here is a quote from the site above.

"Tattoos
Scientists were surprised to find 59 markings on Ötzi's skin that are clearly tattoos. They were even more surprised that his back and leg tattoos were on, or near, typical acupuncture points for treating back and leg pain. X-rays showed evidence of osteoarthrosis in Ötzi that might have responded to acupuncture.

But there's a problem with this theory: Acupuncture is believed to have originated in China 2,000 to 3,000 years ago. But because of Ötzi, some scientists now think that acupuncture (or at least an acupuncture type of medical system) was practiced 5,300 years ago a long long way from China.

It now looks probable that acupuncture or something like it arose simultaneously in different cultures, indicating that prehistoric populations may have had a deep, possibly intuitive, knowledge of the body."

Sounds like woo to me.Given the name of the site,I suppose that it's meant as a joke?
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th March 2009, 08:31 AM   #2
UnrepentantSinner
A post by Alan Smithee
 
UnrepentantSinner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 27,070
I'm skeptical since I've seen some closeups of Otzi's tats and they definately have a (admittedly primative) totemesque look to them... though there might be some aspect of tatting in areas of pain to try and mitigate it. I strenuously doubt it's the chi concept making it's way to Europe, only to die out along with Otzi in the Bronze age.

Have you tried chopping the URL for the website and accessed the main page to see if it's a Poe or sincere?
(I'd do it myself, but I have time and bandwidth issues currently.)
__________________
I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.
UnrepentantSinner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th March 2009, 08:44 AM   #3
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,853
Well, it sounds like woo because it is woo.

First of all once they include "near", they're all set. There are so many acupuncture points that any point on your body is "near" one. There are no less than 365 of them distributed all over the body. Like this: http://www.qi-journal.com/tcmarticle...l/acumodel.asp

Now someone please tell me how it's even possible to have a tattoo on the torso without being near an acupuncture point or another, even if you wanted to.

If you take tattoos, it becomes an even easier fit, because tattoos cover a surface. What I'm saying is that there's a difference between having an X over an exact spot, and some drawing or pattern that might sprawl over inches. Saying that the latter is even near an acupuncture spot just created an unreasonably large size for a "bullseye". At that point it's meaningless.

Also, acupuncture isn't claimed to work "near" a point, it's supposed to be exactly _in_ a given point to have any effect. That's why you go to a trained guy and not just prick yourself any-old-where.

Even if you want to take liberties with the acupuncture theory, at the very least you'd want to at least hit a meridian. Because energy supposedly travels along those and you need to act upon that. Pricking a pin "near" a meridian makes as much sense as cutting _near_ the wire of a bomb or plugging your speakers cable near the jack. It won't actually _do_ jack

So this looks to me like woowoo squared. We have acupuncture which is woowoo to start with, and then you have this stuff which is illogical even if you believe in acupuncture.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th March 2009, 09:06 AM   #4
Uncayimmy
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,353
Otzi was an April Fools joke.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...he-gay-caveman
Uncayimmy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th March 2009, 09:47 AM   #5
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,853
Actually, Ötzi himself is very real. The frozen corpse of a guy who died of his wounds thousands of years ago.

The joke they debunk there is merely the rumour that he was gay.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th March 2009, 12:56 PM   #6
Uncayimmy
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,353
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Actually, Ötzi himself is very real. The frozen corpse of a guy who died of his wounds thousands of years ago.

The joke they debunk there is merely the rumour that he was gay.
Correct. Should have said "part of" an April Fool's joke or "the butt of" (heh heh).
Uncayimmy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th March 2009, 03:05 PM   #7
JoeTheJuggler
Penultimate Amazing
 
JoeTheJuggler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 27,766
Quote:
[They were even more surprised that his back and leg tattoos were on, or near, typical acupuncture points for treating back and leg pain.
So are there any points on the body that aren't "on or near" typical acupuncture points?

That's an awful wide net to cast. It makes for easy retrofitting.

ETA: Once again someone else--HansMustermann this time--already made the same point long before me and more eloquently.
__________________
"That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

Last edited by JoeTheJuggler; 7th March 2009 at 03:08 PM.
JoeTheJuggler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th March 2009, 03:36 PM   #8
TX50
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,641
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Actually, Ötzi himself is very real. The frozen corpse of a guy who died of his wounds thousands of years ago.
Ötzi? I wonder what his real name was.
TX50 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th March 2009, 04:21 PM   #9
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,853
Well, his nickname just has to do with where they found him: Ötztal, meaning Ötz valley. How he was called, or how the region was called back then, we'll probably never know because they hadn't invented writing there yet.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th March 2009, 07:10 PM   #10
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 58,874
You found a worthwhile source of woo to investigate further, dafydd. Follow the trail with Web Surfer Girl...

That website may as well be an anonymous site. They list no contact numbers or addresses. There is no "about" page. There is a corporate listing: Concord Learning Systems , LLC and even that has no contact information whatsoever.

However, it does give another clue to tracking down the web site's source.
Quote:
History of Laughter and Lawter families in the United States. The Laughter Genealogy Reference and Research Center is dedicated to sharing and exchanging information ...[snip] ... ( www.lawtergenealogy.com )

That search finds this web site, Laughter and Lawter Genealogy Research and Reference Center which reveals:
Quote:
Site designed and maintained by Frank Laughter. Copyright © 2006-2008. All rights reserved....

Contact: FrankLaughter@Gmail.com
OR
Call me at area code seven-o-four -- 782-8434
Also, I check GENFORUM on a regular basis...

...E-mail sent to me at LaughterGenealogy.com will NOT be delivered. Web based email is so heavily spammed that it is unacceptable for normal use. Please use the email address above. ...
I was going to email him about the problems with his wording of the information so as to make it appear it was valid information. But I thought I should look for the original source of the information he put on his page before doing so. It appeared there were a number of web pages repeating this information. But I eventually tracked down the original source and it appears, Mr Laughter was indeed citing "scientists".

Viewzone.com listed their source as "Sources: Ludwig Maximilian Universitat Munchen, The Earth Times (28 January 2009)"
Quote:
He had 57 tattoos [above], some of which were located on or near acupuncture points that coincide with the modern points that would be used to treat symptoms of diseases that Otzi seems to have suffered from, such as digestive parasites (whipworm, which causes weight loss) and osteoarthrosis. Some scientists believe that these tattoos indicate an early type of acupuncture.
I didn't get very far on that trail as it led to sites in German.


Apathetic Lemming of the North, a blogger, cited Mr Laughter's page as his source.
Quote:
Since Ötzi died a couple millennia before acupuncture was developed in China, either the positions of those tattoos are pure coincidence, something's not known about China's history, acupuncture developed west of China, or maybe something else is going on.

My guess: the tattoos are where they are for a reason, and we don't know everything about the history of medical practices and technology.
A dead end.


HighBeam Research cites an independent newswire article it wants to sell you.
Quote:
You Want to See 'Otzi's' Acupuncture ... And We Have the Footage! Says German Academy of Acupuncture and Auricular Medicine.

BEILSTEIN, Germany, Oct. 26 /PRNewswire/ -- The following was issued today by the German Academy of Acupuncture and Auricular Medicine:
"It's proven that acupuncture originated in China!" -- False!
"The oldest evidence of acupuncture dates back 2,200 years!" -- False!
Leading experts from the medical field (see "Science," P. 242/1998) have proven that "Otzi," the 5,200 year old mummy found in Hauslabjoch, Austria, underwent acupuncture -- and we filmed their account!
You want to understand "Otzi's" acupuncture ... and we have the explanation!
On professional broadcast videotape. The three most prominent experts concisely explain their results. Plus a ...
Read all of this article with a FREE trial
Again the trail went German.


Acupuncture Today cited these sources
Quote:
1. Dorfer L, et al. A medical report from the stone age? Lancet Sep 18, 1999;354:1023-5.
2. Glausiusz J. The ice man healeth. Discover February 2000.
3. Essentials of Chinese Acupuncture. Compiled by Beijing, Shanghai and Nanjing College of TCM. Beijing: Foreign Language Press, 1980.
4. O'Connor J, Bansky D (eds.) Acupuncture: A Comprehensive Text. Seatle: Eastlan, 1996.
5. Maciocia G. The Foundations of Chinese Medicine. A Comprehensive Text for Acupuncturists and Herbalists. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1989.
for these unfounded conclusions:
Quote:
While most tattoos are ornamental in nature, the tattoos found on Otzi's body were in the form of simple stripes or crosses. They were also found in places that would normally be covered by hair or clothing. Since such non-ornamental tattoos had previously been found in similar locations on mummies in Siberia and South America, some researchers speculated that the lines on Otzi's body were of therapeutic importance.

What, if any, significance did the ice man's tattoos have beyond ornamentation? A group of scientists from the University of Graz in Austria attempted to answer that question by theorizing a possible relationship between the tattoos and traditional acupuncture points. Their findings, first published in The Lancet in 1999 and updated in Discover magazine earlier this year,1,2 purport to show that acupuncture  or a system of healing quite similar to it  may have been in use in central Europe more than 2,000 years earlier than previously believed.

The research team, led by Drs. Leopold Dorfer and Max Moser, first calculated the mummy's cun by measuring its femur, tibia and radius. They then converted the measurements of the tattoos to cun and overlaid the locations of the tattoos to topographical representations of Chinese acupuncture points.

Experts from three acupuncture societies then examined the locations of the tattoos. In their opinion, nine tattoos could be identified as being located directly on, or within six millimeters of, traditional acupuncture points. Two more were located on an acupuncture meridian. One tattoo was used as a local point. The remaining three tattoos were situated between 6-13mm from the closest acupuncture point.
Now we're getting somewhere. To narrow the search, rather than look up each of these, an earlier link to Wiki was cited, so I went there.


From Wiki we find more on the Lancet article.
Quote:
Recent examinations of Ötzi, a 5,000-year-old mummy found in the Alps, have identified over 50 tattoos on his body, some of which are located on acupuncture points that would today be used to treat ailments Ötzi suffered from. Some scientists believe that this is evidence that practices similar to acupuncture were practiced elsewhere in Eurasia during the early Bronze Age. According to an article published in The Lancet by Dorfer et al., "We hypothesised that there might have been a medical system similar to acupuncture (Chinese Zhenjiu: needling and burning) that was practiced in Central Europe 5,200 years ago... A treatment modality similar to acupuncture thus appears to have been in use long before its previously known period of use in the medical tradition of ancient China. This raises the possibility of acupuncture having originated in the Eurasian continent at least 2000 years earlier than previously recognised."[16], [17].

And from there, I tracked down the Lancet article. (It requires free registration to read more than the first couple paragraphs.)

The article is nothing more than describing an hypothesis. To which they conclude is correct at the end without ever having tested it beyond speculation. Of course if you are operating on the unsupported premise there really are therapeutic meridian points, you are likely to draw an unsupported conclusion.

A medical report from the stone age?
Quote:
...Clearly there is a methodological difference between tattooing and needle acupuncture. However, this difference may be comparable to the difference between applying a pharmacological agent either by injection or by intravenous infusion: the application is different but the idea is the same....

...The fact that not randomly selected points, but rather corresponding groups of points were marked by tattoos, seems especially intriguing. From an acupuncturist's viewpoint, the combination of points selected represents a meaningful therapeutic regimen.19 Slight differences between the location of some of the tattoo points and classical acupuncture-sites might be explained by twisting of the Iceman's skin relative to underlying structures that may have occurred during 5000 years in the ice. This is especially obvious in the tattoos on the back (top part of figure 3), which are very likely to have been applied symmetrically to the spine and are partly shifted today out of symmetry according to their location on the twisted body....

...Most are located on the gall bladder, spleen, or liver meridian (see table). These points are used when a patient has abdominal disorders.20 Recent findings revealed numerous eggs of whipworms (Trichuris trichiura) in the Iceman's colon.21 This would no doubt have affected his abdominal function as speculated by Capasso.16 The finding of a remarkable amount of charcoal in the colon of the Iceman22 and the presence of a phytotherapeutic remedy, the woody fruit of Piptoporus betulinus6, 16 found in the Iceman's belongings, testify to the Iceman's abdominal problems....

...The above findings provide strong evidence...A treatment modality similar to acupuncture thus appears to have been in use long before its previously known period of use in the medical tradition of ancient China (c 1000 BC, see 11, 23). This raises the possibility of acupuncture having originated in the Eurasian continent at least 2000 years earlier than previously recognised.

And there you have it. I could have just posted the Lancet article once I found it. But I wanted to show the steps it took finding it. They were pretty simple and didn't take much time.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 7th March 2009 at 07:15 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th March 2009, 11:20 PM   #11
JoeTheJuggler
Penultimate Amazing
 
JoeTheJuggler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 27,766
Quote:
While most tattoos are ornamental in nature, the tattoos found on Otzi's body were in the form of simple stripes or crosses. They were also found in places that would normally be covered by hair or clothing. Since such non-ornamental tattoos had previously been found in similar locations on mummies in Siberia and South America, some researchers speculated that the lines on Otzi's body were of therapeutic importance.
How are locations in Siberia, the Alps and South America "similar"? Surely they're not implying there was communication among all these locations?

Covered by clothing means non-ornamental?!

And finally--I assume they're claiming that this is evidence that there must be something to acupuncture since different, unrelated cultures (they say) used a similar practice--as if such a weak and convoluted argument takes the place of controlled testing. At any rate, I understand this guy was in pretty bad shape. So I guess if he received acupuncture "therapy" it didn't do him much good either.
__________________
"That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons
JoeTheJuggler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th March 2009, 03:19 AM   #12
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,853
Well it's very likely that they weren't purely ornamental, because a tribesman's world is chock-full of woowoo, and tattoos are routinely supposed to be in some way magical.

But let's apply Occam's Razor.

Those tattoos weren't just near acupuncture points (which again is bunk anyway because acupuncture "works" by exact points), they were over the places where he had arthritis, i.e., where he felt the pain. There's a simpler explanation right there. Yes, they tried some woowoo treatment, but it most likely wasn't acupuncture, but simply trying to do some magic where it hurt.

And again, that isn't how acupuncture works. Acupuncture doesn't say "stick a pin where it hurts", it says: stick pins in some points determined by mystical energy and pretty much astrological considerations, to cause an effect somewhere else by balancingig those energies. You get to stick for example a pin in the hand, one in the shoulder and one in the foot, to "cure" a menopause problem that has to do with the ovaries.

Second, I don't see how tattoos are in any way "proof" of acupuncture. Tattoos may involve needles too but it's a much more superficial pricking the skin in lots of places, not just sticking it into a node. The similarity is ridiculously superficial.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th March 2009, 05:17 AM   #13
wombatwal
Graduate Poster
 
wombatwal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Van Squad
Posts: 1,457
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
http://www.laughtergenealogy.com/bin...sc/iceman.html

Here is a quote from the site above.

"Tattoos
Scientists were surprised to find 59 markings on Ötzi's skin that are clearly tattoos. They were even more surprised that his back and leg tattoos were on, or near, typical acupuncture points for treating back and leg pain. X-rays showed evidence of osteoarthrosis in Ötzi that might have responded to acupuncture.

But there's a problem with this theory: Acupuncture is believed to have originated in China 2,000 to 3,000 years ago. But because of Ötzi, some scientists now think that acupuncture (or at least an acupuncture type of medical system) was practiced 5,300 years ago a long long way from China.

It now looks probable that acupuncture or something like it arose simultaneously in different cultures, indicating that prehistoric populations may have had a deep, possibly intuitive, knowledge of the body."

Sounds like woo to me.Given the name of the site,I suppose that it's meant as a joke?
Yes I read about that in the book "Trick or Treatment" by Simon Singh and Edzard Ernst. Their book was looking at Alternative Medicine and the lack of evidence for it.
wombatwal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th March 2009, 05:38 AM   #14
Big Les
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 5,019
By massive coincidence, I blogged on this very recently;

http://bshistorian.wordpress.com/200...-am-dangerous/

Didn't take me long to find the lancet article either, but not everyone has the Google-Fu. Also I don't know what your take is Skeptigirl, but I was far from convinced by that article. There are various problems with their reasoning, chiefly a more than healthy dose of wishful thinking. It's speculation that is becoming "fact" by virtue of repetition.

Last edited by Big Les; 8th March 2009 at 05:43 AM.
Big Les is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th March 2009, 01:22 PM   #15
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 58,874
Originally Posted by Big Les View Post
By massive coincidence, I blogged on this very recently;

http://bshistorian.wordpress.com/200...-am-dangerous/

Didn't take me long to find the lancet article either, but not everyone has the Google-Fu. Also I don't know what your take is Skeptigirl, but I was far from convinced by that article. There are various problems with their reasoning, chiefly a more than healthy dose of wishful thinking. It's speculation that is becoming "fact" by virtue of repetition.
I totally agree, their reasoning was absolute bunk. It shouldn't have passed peer review, IMO.

That's a great blog post.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th March 2009, 01:44 PM   #16
Doghouse Reilly
Adrift on an uncharted sea
 
Doghouse Reilly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,935
Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
How are locations in Siberia, the Alps and South America "similar"? Surely they're not implying there was communication among all these locations?
They meant the tattoos were on similar locations on the body. Not that the Alps, South America, and Siberia were similar.
Doghouse Reilly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th March 2009, 02:05 AM   #17
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
Thank you very much Skeptigirl!
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th March 2009, 03:38 PM   #18
TX50
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,641
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, his nickname just has to do with where they found him: Ötztal, meaning Ötz valley. How he was called, or how the region was called back then, we'll probably never know because they hadn't invented writing there yet.
Oh yes, I know all that. It was just an idle musing I had. Similarly, one of the
bodies found in Lindow Moss, for example, was informally called "Pete Marsh"
(because he was found in a peat marsh, get it? get it? ).
TX50 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th March 2009, 04:20 PM   #19
JoeTheJuggler
Penultimate Amazing
 
JoeTheJuggler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 27,766
Originally Posted by Doghouse Reilly View Post
They meant the tattoos were on similar locations on the body. Not that the Alps, South America, and Siberia were similar.
Ah--yes--similar locations on the body. I misread that.

I suppose "similar locations" on the body means "on the skin". I wonder why they only mentioned those 3 geographical locations then.
__________________
"That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons
JoeTheJuggler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th March 2009, 05:54 PM   #20
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 58,874
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Thank you very much Skeptigirl!
Yer welcome.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th March 2009, 04:52 AM   #21
Springfork
Scholar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 68
Tattoo? Acupuncture? More like scarification.
Springfork is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:29 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.