Merged: Memory of Water Proven

[meow]

http://www.rustumroy.com/May%2016th%20Webinar.pdf


The defining role of structure (including epitaxy)
in the plausibility of homeopathy, Manju Lata Rao, Rustum Roy, Iris R Bell,and Richard Hoover, Homeopathy (2007) 96, pp. 175–182.

Webinar with Prof. Rustum Roy and Prof. Iris Bell on recent research in materials science which shows physical evidence for unique dosage and remedy signatures in water.

May 16, 2007

by Prof. Rustom Roy and Iris Bell, MD, PhD

In May 2007, the NCH's first web cast featured groundbreaking results that may forever change the face of homeopathy.

Professor Rustom Roy, the Founding Director of the Materials Research Laboratory at Penn State and one of the world's leading experts on the structure of water, along with Professor Iris R. Bell, Director of Research Education for the Program of Integrative Medicine at the University of Arizona College of Medicine, presented their findings to an audience of prominent American scientists and medical researchers.

Roy's laboratory has found, using multiple testing methods, that not only do different remedy dilutions in excess of Avogadro's number carry unique characteristic signatures, but different potencies do as well!

These results will not only serve to prove to the scientific community that homeopathic medicines are not placebo medicine, but they also will provide a way for the homeopathic pharmacies to assure the nature and quality of their products.

================================================== =================


http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15594862

New physico-chemical properties of extremely diluted aqueous solutions
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
ELIA V. (1) ; NICCOLI M. (1) ;
Affiliation(s) du ou des auteurs / Author(s) Affiliation(s)
(1) Department of Chemistry, University ' Federico II'of Naples, Complesso Universitario di Monte S. Angelo, via Cintia, 80126 Naples, ITALIE
Résumé / Abstract
The 'extremely diluted solutions' are anomalous solutions obtained through the iteration of two processes: a dilution 1:100 in mass and a succussion. The iteration is repeated until extreme dilutions are reached (less than 1.10-5 mol kg-1) to the point that we may call the resulting solution an extremely diluted solution, namely the composition of the solution is identical to that of the solvent used (e.g. twice distilled water). We conducted thermodynamic and transport measurements of the solutions and of the interaction of those solutions with acids or bases. The purpose of this study is to obtain information about the influence of successive dilutions and succussions on the water structure of the solutions under study. We measured the heats of mixing of acid or basic solutions with such 'extremely diluted solutions', their electrical conductivity and pH, comparing with the analogous heats of mixing, electrical conductivity and pH of the solvent. We found some relevant exothermic excess heats of mixing, higher electrical conductivity and pH than those of the untreated solvent. The measurements show a good correlation between independent physico-chemical parameters. Care was taken to take into account the effect of chemical impurities deriving from the glass containers. Here we thus show that successive dilutions and succussions can permanently alter the physico-chemical properties of the water solvent. The nature of the phenomena here described still remains unexplained, nevertheless some significant experimental results were obtained.
Revue / Journal Title
Journal of thermal analysis and calorimetry ISSN 1388-6150
Source / Source
2004, vol. 75, no3, pp. 815-836 [22 page(s) (article)] (32 ref.)

================================================== =======================

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15105967

1: Inflamm Res. 2004 May;53(5):181-8. Epub 2004 Apr 21.Click here to read Links
Histamine dilutions modulate basophil activation.
Belon P, Cumps J, Ennis M, Mannaioni PF, Roberfroid M, Sainte-Laudy J, Wiegant FA.

Boiron, 20 rue de la Libération, 69110 Sainte-Foy-Les-Lyon, France.

BACKGROUND: In order to demonstrate that high dilutions of histamine are able to inhibit basophil activation in a reproducible fashion, several techniques were used in different research laboratories. OBJECTIVE: The aim of the study was to investigate the action of histamine dilutions on basophil activation. METHODS: Basophil activation was assessed by alcian blue staining, measurement of histamine release and CD63 expression. Study 1 used a blinded multi-centre approach in 4 centres. Study 2, related to the confirmation of the multi-centre study by flow cytometry, was performed independently in 3 laboratories. Study 3 examined the histamine release (one laboratory) and the activity of H(2) receptor antagonists and structural analogues (two laboratories). RESULTS: High dilutions of histamine (10(-30)-10(-38) M) influence the activation of human basophils measured by alcian blue staining. The degree of inhibition depends on the initial level of anti-IgE induced stimulation, with the greatest inhibitory effects seen at lower levels of stimulation. This multicentre study was confirmed in the three laboratories by using flow cytometry and in one laboratory by histamine release. Inhibition of CD63 expression by histamine high dilutions was reversed by cimetidine (effect observed in two laboratories) and not by ranitidine (one laboratory). Histidine tested in parallel with histamine showed no activity on this model. CONCLUSIONS: In 3 different types of experiment, it has been shown that high dilutions of histamine may indeed exert an effect on basophil activity. This activity observed by staining basophils with alcian blue was confirmed by flow cytometry. Inhibition by histamine was reversed by anti-H2 and was not observed with histidine these results being in favour of the specificity of this effect We are however unable to explain our findings and are reporting them to encourage others to investigate this phenomenon.

p<.0001

================================================== ====================

Icy claim that water has memory

* 19:00 11 June 2003 by Lionel Milgrom

Claims do not come much more controversial than the idea that water might retain a memory of substances once dissolved in it. The notion is central to homeopathy, which treats patients with samples so dilute they are unlikely to contain a single molecule of the active compound, but it is generally ridiculed by scientists.

Yet a paper is about to be published in the reputable journal Physica A claiming to show that even though they should be identical, the structure of hydrogen bonds in pure water is very different from that in homeopathic dilutions of salt solutions. Could it be time to take the "memory" of water seriously?

The paper's author, Swiss chemist Louis Rey, is using thermoluminescence to study the structure of solids. The technique involves bathing a chilled sample with radiation. When the sample is warmed up, the stored energy is released as light in a pattern that reflects the atomic structure of the sample.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3817

[quixotecoyote]

Let's see.

• Copy & Paste
• Messed up formatting
• Overuse of color tags
• Overuse of size tags
• Prime source known to be a kook, a point previously pointed out and undefended.

Looking for a high score on the crackpot index?

[RationalVetMed]

Originally Posted by meow

Roy's laboratory has found, using multiple testing methods, that not only do different remedy dilutions in excess of Avogadro's number carry unique characteristic signatures, but different potencies do as well!

Woahh!

Originally Posted by meow

Here we thus show that successive dilutions and succussions can permanently alter the physico-chemical properties of the water solvent. The nature of the phenomena here described still remains unexplained, nevertheless some significant experimental results were obtained.

aaaaargh!

Originally Posted by meow

CONCLUSIONS: In 3 different types of experiment, it has been shown that high dilutions of histamine may indeed exert an effect on basophil activity. This activity observed by staining basophils with alcian blue was confirmed by flow cytometry. Inhibition by histamine was reversed by anti-H2 and was not observed with histidine these results being in favour of the specificity of this effect We are however unable to explain our findings and are reporting them to encourage others to investigate this phenomenon.

p<.0001

Nooooooo, please, stop, I can't take your puissant arguments anymore. Ok, you win, the cheque's in the post... curse your devastating use of the formatting sub menu... sob...

Yuri

[Doctor Evil]

No, its not time to take the memory of water seriously. There are no experiments which actually demonstrate that the phenomena exist. In contrast, there is a large body of scientific understanding leading to the opposite conclusion.

Moreover, this have been discussed here before:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85020
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ad.php?t=82393

[meow]

Originally Posted by Doctor Evil

There are no experiments which actually demonstrate that the phenomena exist.

you're kidding, right?

[godless dave]

Proven? The study hasn't even been published yet.

[Gilmar]

Originally Posted by meow

Could it be time to take the "memory" of water seriously?

I remember water. It was before I discovered beer.

[Doctor Evil]

Originally Posted by meow

you're kidding, right?

I am dead serious. (Though possibly dead as someone who have taken a full bottle of Homeopathic sleeping pills.)

I am willing to qualify my statement a little. There are no good, repeatable, experimental results which demonstrate that the phenomenon exist. I may have been too brief, but I have taken these qualifiers to be self evident.

[Skeptic]

The real reason "Meow" started a new thread here is that she started discussing the issue in the "suicide attempt failed" thread (http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=137195), in which I pointed out that I have downed a whole bottle of homeopathic sleeping drops (50 times the recommended amount) in front of my class and didn't even yawn.

"Meow" cannot face this sort of rather direct proof that homeopathy doesn't work -- that is, me betting my life, quite literally, on homeopathy being male bovine excrement, and (of course) winning the bet, as I knew in advance would happen.

It's so much more "scientific" to talk about p-values using large fonts and multi-colored posts.

Anyway, p-values in themselves mean absolutely nothing apart from the fact that the null hypothesis is wrong. If there is a systematic error in the experiment, the p-value will still be very low. To give an extreme example: if I test my psychic ability to make the coin land "heads" but, by mistake, use one of those "trick" two-headed coins, my p-values would be incredibly small, but it would not really prove I have psychic powers.

That is why science demands repeatability. When you have a small p-value but other laboratories cannot reproduce your results -- as is the case with these studies -- it is certain that the positive result you got was due to some systematic error or bias in your experiment.

It is typical of fringe pseudo-scientific experiments like those dealing with homeopathy to get some low p-value in ONE (or very few) laboratories, and when nobody else manages to replicate the result to claim a "conspiracy" and "closed mindedness" -- instead of admitting the obvious, namely, that the original experiment was (deliberately or accidentally) biased.

Whenever the actual experimental procedures of such "positive results" fringe experiments were examined in detail -- Beneviste's homeopathy experiments, Targ & Puthoff's or J. B. Rhine's psi experiments -- it was quickly seen the the experimental methods had holes you could drive a truck through. With all probability, the same is the case with these experiments, as well.

[Doctor Evil]

Originally Posted by godless dave

Proven? The study hasn't even been published yet.

And publishing a result may not say much. I have seen several wrong papers which passed peer review.

[Sherman Bay]

I understand now, how science is done. Yell, scream, print in large, bright, florescent text, repeat it often, act hurt when no one believes you, and it becomes fact.

The Million Dollar Challenge is still open. Why not try for it? Jacques BenVeniste wasn't able to pass Randi's test protocol, maybe you could?

[meow]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

The real reason "Meow" started a new thread here is that she started discussing the issue in the "suicide attempt failed" thread (http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=137195), in which I pointed out that I have downed a whole bottle of homeopathic sleeping drops (50 times the recommended amount) in front of my class and didn't even yawn.

no, it's actually because i think most everything on ultra dilute solutions belongs in the science section.

[Steelmage]

Why this may explain the Loch Ness Monster, think about it, it is water having a flash back of prehistoric times when dinosaurs were around. It must be the only explanation for it.

[meow]

Originally Posted by Sherman Bay

I understand now, how science is done. Yell, scream, print in large, bright, florescent text, repeat it often, act hurt when no one believes you, and it becomes fact.

The Million Dollar Challenge is still open. Why not try for it? Jacques BenVeniste wasn't able to pass Randi's test protocol, maybe you could?

it's a fraud. randi makes you use a magnet to blank out a remedy and use that as a control.

the entire prize is a fraud and will never be won.

as randi once said -- never play another man's game.

and besides, the only qualified people are published people.

like who is going to fall for his trickery and deception?

[godless dave]

Originally Posted by meow

it's a fraud. randi makes you use a magnet to blank out a remedy and use that as a control.

Source?

Plus, how would that make the challenge a fraud?

[Molinaro]

Originally Posted by meow

it's a fraud. randi makes you use a magnet to blank out a remedy and use that as a control.

What the heck does that mean? A magnet will somehow affect the water in a permamenent way -- is that your assertion?

[meow]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

"Meow" cannot face this sort of rather direct proof that homeopathy doesn't work -- that is, me betting my life, quite literally, on homeopathy being male bovine excrement, and (of course) winning the bet, as I knew in advance would happen.

lol

give me a break.

you want to be honest?

get yourself some sulphur 30C or 200c and take a small amount 5, 6, 7 or more times per day for several days. that's how you do it.

200c would be mail order so that about rules it out. 30c could possibly mess you up pretty good if taken dozens and dozens of times over a 2 week period.

dare you to try it.

when you are about to run out of pills place the last 4, 5 , 6 in a water bottle and periodically sip from it another 40 to 50 times.


now thats an experiment that has 100 times more honesty to it than what you pulled off.

your stunt was a sad little joke.

[tyr_13]

Originally Posted by godless dave

Source?

Plus, how would that make the challenge a fraud?

I guess that would be the 'control' part. Homeopathy doesn't work with controls.

[trvlr2]

Originally Posted by Gilmar

I remember water. It was before I discovered beer.

I'll drink to that!

[meow]

Originally Posted by Molinaro

What the heck does that mean? A magnet will somehow affect the water in a permamenent way -- is that your assertion?

no, i read that randi wants you to have 20 remedies of X and take 10 of them and wave a magnet over them. he assumes that the magnet will blank out the remedy and now you have to tell what from what.

he came up with the magnet idea because some homeopaths claimed (probably falsely) that a magnetic field wipes out a remedy.

more trickery from mr. magician

[ravdin]

Originally Posted by meow

it's a fraud. randi makes you use a magnet to blank out a remedy and use that as a control.

the entire prize is a fraud and will never be won.

I can agree with you on one thing. The prize is very unlikely ever to be won so long as Randi insists on using experimental controls to separate a valid demonstration of a supernatural phenomenon from a wildly unsubstantiated claim.

[Molinaro]

Originally Posted by meow

no, i read that randi wants you to have 20 remedies of X and take 10 of them and wave a magnet over them. he assumes that the magnet will blank out the remedy and now you have to tell what from what.

he came up with the magnet idea because some homeopaths claimed (probably falsely) that a magnetic field wipes out a remedy.

more trickery from mr. magician

You read that...

As in some post on a forum somewhere said so and you imagine up some innane conspiracy idea and just run with it?

[meow]

Originally Posted by ravdin

I can agree with you on one thing. The prize is very unlikely ever to be won so long as Randi insists on using experimental controls to separate a valid demonstration of a supernatural phenomenon from a wildly unsubstantiated claim.

rustum roy and louis rey can easily win this challenge if it was fair but it isnt fair.

rustum roy has kicked your doors down!


Professor Rustom Roy, the Founding Director of the Materials Research Laboratory at Penn State and one of the world's leading experts on the structure of water, along with Professor Iris R. Bell, Director of Research Education for the Program of Integrative Medicine at the University of Arizona College of Medicine, presented their findings to an audience of prominent American scientists and medical researchers.

Roy's laboratory has found, using multiple testing methods, that not only do different remedy dilutions in excess of Avogadro's number carry unique characteristic signatures, but different potencies do as well!

[RationalVetMed]

Originally Posted by meow

you want to be honest?

get yourself some sulphur 30C or 200c and take a small amount 5, 6, 7 or more times per day for several days. that's how you do it.

200c would be mail order so that about rules it out. 30c could possibly mess you up pretty good if taken dozens and dozens of times over a 2 week period.

dare you to try it.

Oh, now you're joking, you can't really believe that any one is going to be scared of taking lactose tablets - don't tell me you really believe this stuff; really; in your heart of hearts? I thought you were just having a laugh!

Homeopathic suicide!!!

Dearie me!

Yuri

[ravdin]

Originally Posted by meow

no, i read that randi wants you to have 20 remedies of X and take 10 of them and wave a magnet over them. he assumes that the magnet will blank out the remedy and now you have to tell what from what.

he came up with the magnet idea because some homeopaths claimed (probably falsely) that a magnetic field wipes out a remedy.

more trickery from mr. magician

If I understand this correctly, then it's a good idea! If the homeopaths are what they claim to be, this test should be absurdly easy to pass.

[Wowbagger]

Why would Randi want to use a magnet to "blank out" the remedies, if he doesn't even think a magnet would have any effect on them, to begin with?!

[meow]

Originally Posted by Wowbagger

Why would Randi want to use a magnet to "blank out" the remedies, if he doesn't even think a magnet would have any effect on them, to begin with?!

well that's exactly it. it's extra insurance that no one can possibly tell the difference because the magnet does nothing and therefore the tubes are all the same

[ravdin]

Originally Posted by Wowbagger

Why would Randi want to use a magnet to "blank out" the remedies, if he doesn't even think a magnet would have any effect on them, to begin with?!

I think the idea is that half of the samples are "blanked out", then you should be able to separate the ones that are valid remedies from those that are not. If you did this correctly for 10 out of 20 samples, I'd see it as highly convincing evidence that this was not due to chance.

[wexer9]

Why isn't all water undrinkable?
Wouldn't water retain the "memory" of all the sewage treatment plants it has been through?

[Wowbagger]

Originally Posted by ravdin

I think the idea is that half of the samples are "blanked out", then you should be able to separate the ones that are valid remedies from those that are not. If you did this correctly for 10 out of 20 samples, I'd see it as highly convincing evidence that this was not due to chance.

So, it's the applicant who will claim the remedies can be blanked out with a magnet, is that right?

If that is the case, perhaps Meow can develop and propose an alternative protocol that would not require use of magnets.

[RationalVetMed]

Originally Posted by meow

well that's exactly it. it's extra insurance that no one can possibly tell the difference because the magnet does nothing and therefore the tubes are all the same

Miaow's got a point, the tubes would all be the same.

Yuri

[paximperium]

Originally Posted by meow

well that's exactly it. it's extra insurance that no one can possibly tell the difference because the magnet does nothing and therefore the tubes are all the same

That makes sense. The magnet does nothing therefore it is cheating.

[meow]

Originally Posted by wexer9

Why isn't all water undrinkable?
Wouldn't water retain the "memory" of all the sewage treatment plants it has been through?

i shouldn't be speculating but if i were then i would say that the strength would be infintessimally(sp?) small.

my guess is that if you take a substance at some set ratio 1/10, 1/20, 1/50, 1/100 and if you keep up with the succession and dilution then you are somehow or another magnifying the effect as shown by dozens and dozens of researchers.

see ennis 2004 study

p<.0001

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by wexer9

Why isn't all water undrinkable?
Wouldn't water retain the "memory" of all the sewage treatment plants it has been through?

It does. That's why they put chlorine in it...

But hang on.... Wouldn't that make water the most potent form of hypochloritic acid on earth?

DON'T DRINK THE WATER! STICK TO KOOL AID.

[meow]

yuri's a funny guy

too bad you make up your mind depending on which way the herd is already pointed.

[anor277]

Originally Posted by meow

well that's exactly it. it's extra insurance that no one can possibly tell the difference because the magnet does nothing and therefore the tubes are all the same

I take it then that I may safely place my homeopathic remedy next to my hifi speakers? The magnetic field does not affect the remedy.

[paximperium]

Originally Posted by meow

i shouldn't be speculating but if i were then i would say that the strength would be infintessimally(sp?) small.

my guess is that if you take a substance at some set ratio 1/10, 1/20, 1/50, 1/100 and if you keep up with the succession and dilution then you are somehow or another magnifying the effect as shown by dozens and dozens of researchers.

How many dilutions does it take?
How long does water hold its memory?
How does this memory interact with human physiology?
Why isn't some water more toxic than others because they are less dilute?
Why do most homeopathic solution use ALCOHOL instead of water?

Quote:

see ennis 2004 study

p<.0001

Meow please tell us what a p-value means?

[Skeptic]

Originally Posted by meow

lol

get yourself some sulphur 30C or 200c and take a small amount 5, 6, 7 or more times per day for several days. that's how you do it.

200c would be mail order so that about rules it out.

Yes, that would be the EXTRA SPECIAL nothing pill, as opposed to the ol' plain nothing pill. Worth the money, I suppose: after all, with a 30C dilution (100^30, or 10^60) there is still some astronomically small chance that there might be a single molecule of sulfur in it somewhere, which, it seems, would ruin the whole thing. 200C, 10^400, on the other hand, means a dilution of, I think, one sulphur molecule in a pool of water the size of the visible universe.

Quote:

30c could possibly mess you up pretty good if taken dozens and dozens of times over a 2 week period.

dare you to try it.

"Dare I" take a sugar pill or drink a few drops of water every day for a month? Of course.

And yes, I'd take sulphur homeopathic pills if you want, but why stop with plain old sulphur? Sure, it's bad for you, but surely there are worse things in the homeopath's powerful aresenal.

At 30C dilution, I'm willing to take anything at all. Let's try the most deadly poison homeopathy can offer: How about 200C plutonium three times daily? 30C homeopathic arsenic twice a week? 100C homeopathic cyanide?

Knock yourself out! Remember: I want the MOST powerful poison homeopathy can devise!

Do you know anybody who sells these homeopathic pills (sulphur or whatever poison you choose)? Brand name of homeopathic medicine you'd prefer I'd use?

After all, we want to make absolutely clear I'm using the CORRECT, EXTRA POWERFUL, REPUTABLE nothing pills, not some phoney-baloney, cheapo nothing pills. The physical effect of homeopathic medicine, as we all known, is mysteriously related, not to what's in them (there's nothing in any of them, of course), but to how much you paid for them and how credulous you are.

Quote:

when you are about to run out of pills place the last 4, 5 , 6 in a water bottle and periodically sip from it another 40 to 50 times.

Yes, I quite agree: 4-5 homeopathic pills are just as effective as 40 or 50 of them. Or as 4,000 of them or 50,000,000 of them, for that matter, since to get a single molecule at 30C dliution you'd need, rougly, enough pills to fill the earth (if not a sphere the size of its orbit, or something like that).

Quote:

your stunt was a sad little joke.

Indeed it was a joke. At homeopathy's expense.

[meow]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

Y How about 200C plutonium three times daily? 30C homeopathic arsenic twice a week? 100C homeopathic cyanide?

none of these would kill you but i think you would experience something quite annoying after taking about a 100-200 doses spread out evenly over 7 to 14 days.

i dare you.

are 75,000 european medical doctors and about 3,000,000 over the last 200 years complete and total idiots?


would you absolutely 100% bet the lives of your children, brothers, sisters, father, mother, nieces, nephews, uncles and aunts lives on the fact that Rustum roy is wrong?

would you accept a wager that if you are correct you receive $10,000,000,

Edited by Lisa Simpson:

Edited to remove inappropriate remark.

Do not get personal.

Responding to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By:Lisa Simpson

[paximperium]

Originally Posted by meow

are 75,000 european medical doctors and about 3,000,000 over the last 200 years complete and total idiots?

We can see the obvious honesty:

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Meow (known and loved by us all as Xanta, in another existence) bases this assertion, which she has been making repeatedly since at least 2003 to my certain knowledge, on figures detailing the number of doctors in various countries who have either prescribed a homoeopathic remedy, or referred a patient to a homoeopath.

Nothing to do with supporting or believing in homoeopathy.

Many doctors welcome the existence of homoeopathic provision as a way to offload the chronic complainers who have little wrong with them. In particular, even doctors who are implacably opposed to homoeopathy will accede to a request from a patient to be referred to a homoeopath. (One of my best friends is a doctor who physically burned an entire consignment of ante-natal advice leaflets sent to her practice because of a one-line recommendation of homoeopathy on the back page, despite the leaflets otherwise containing good advice. But she tells me she has referred patients to homoeopaths, when they requested the referral, and she believed they had nothing actually wrong with them anyway. And she is included in meow's 75,000 because of that.)

In an identical exchange some time ago (Xanta has a very short repeat cycle) Badly Shaved Monkey, leading light of the anti-homoeopathy illuminati, admitted that he had referred patients to homoeopaths when requested to do so by the client, and when he believed the resulting lack of effective care would not cause harm.

Wait for it, the next bit of the cycle involves "THE QUEEN OF ENGLAND. AND HER SON." In large bold red letters.

Rolfe.

Quote:

would you absolutely 100% bet the lives of your children, nieces and nephews and uncles and aunts lives on the fact that Rustum roy is wrong?

would you accept a wager that if you are correct you receive $10,000,000, but if you are wrong you and all your loved ones are slowly burned to death?

No no no.The question is will you?
Unlike you, skeptics are open to evidence. If he is proven right and actually produces evidence, we will accept this finding.
The question of course is will you accept if he completely and utterly wrong?