ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 911 conspiracy theory , thermite , wtc1 , wtc2

Closed Thread
Old 7th April 2009, 11:40 AM   #641
roundhead
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 824
Originally Posted by 911files View Post
Please don't confuse apples and oranges. I could write a book (and may yet) regarding the lies I have run into in regards to 9/11. Most of it is just a matter of an agency covering its a** or incompetence. But there is a huge difference between the government lying to cover up something and its active invlovement in the murder of American citizens. The later I have found absolutely no evidence of.
USS Liberty, and out and out lie to cover up for another Govt, and allow US servicemen to die simply for serving our country.

That they were hung out to dry isnt debatable.
roundhead is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 11:41 AM   #642
Julio
Scholar
 
Julio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 71
Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
2. In the Red Layer, the presence of Al, Fe, O, Si, and C, occurs in particles at the scale of tens to hundreds of nanometers, with intimate mixing.
Maybe I missed it, but I think I didn't read any explanation about the silicon. If the layer is nano-thermite... what is silicon doing there? It is not part of the reaction

Quote:
7. The Red Layer ignites and reacts vigorously at 430C, with a narrow exotherm, both of which match "closely" to a "known" sample of "superthermite". The tests prove that the material is not standard "thermite" which ignites/reacts at 900C or more.

8. Through ignition testing up to 700C, the presence or iron rich spherules was noted, containing elemental iron (based on the changed ratio between the iron and oxygen pre and post ignition). For the sphere to have been formed, an extremely high temp chemical reaction must have occured, to make the iron molten. The chem reaction proposed is a reduction-oxidation reaction...a thermite reaction.
The word "ignited" is very, very misleading. If I understodd it right, in DSC they just measure how much heat it is absorbed or released from the sample when changing its temperature. There's some release of heat when the sample reaches 400șC. That's different than saying "ignition"

NIST did the same (NCSTAR 1-3C, appendix D), and guess what, they also had some release of heat at 400șC. They say it's due to the release fo heat in a phase change.


Quote:
10. The Carbon content, along with the amount of energy release, indicates that it would not be classic thermite, but perhaps superthermite.
Carbon is probably due to contamination. Jones said they didn't clean the samples.
Julio is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 11:42 AM   #643
boloboffin
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,001
Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
I've had a look at the relevant sections - thanks to all who posted the links.

Page 433 - D.2.1 Condition of Paint. - Paragraph 2.

That's an important paragraph and deserves attention and gives the corresponding Table D-1 Composition of primer paint, Page 438.

But what really grabbed my attention and I'd wish I'd seen this before is is the photo on Page 442, Fig D-4, that was alluded to by a poster above.

That is striking and cannot be ignored. Compare Fig D-4 with Jones' paper Fig 2 a-d)
boloboffin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 11:42 AM   #644
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Did everyone see this video about Jones's latest revelation ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE_tuWKsBko
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 11:42 AM   #645
BCR
Master Poster
 
BCR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,276
Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
I see a pattern of violent irrationality in America which shows little sign of abating. One can only hope.


Yep, that violent irrationality in America is widespread. I took my niece to the range last night to fire off a 9mm automatic. She said it was "the best day of her life". We rednecks are the problem me thinks. Nothing like the aroma of gunpowder in the evening to make the day complete.
__________________
"Is your claim that the level of penetration is only governed by distance and not the material that is being penetrated?" - DGM
BCR is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 11:44 AM   #646
T.A.M.
Keeper of the Kool-Vax
 
T.A.M.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,816
Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
ElMondoHummus - perhaps you're right. But I'm going to continue producing youtube videos to counter the anti-knowledge being peddled until further notice.

As I mentioned in my previous post, your elected leaders are still looking for the next war to embark upon. Pres. Obama is determined to escalate in Afghanistan, in spite of the warning signs seen there and in Pakistan.

Canada is about to get out of A'stan for good reasons (we don't have the money, for one).

I see a pattern of violent irrationality in America which shows little sign of abating. One can only hope.
This discussion is probably best placed in the dreaded "politics" forum.

TAM
T.A.M. is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 11:46 AM   #647
Pardalis
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 25,831
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Did everyone see this video about Jones's latest revelation ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE_tuWKsBko
Got nothing better to do than to spam the same video?

you posted that already here.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...91#post4592891
Pardalis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 11:50 AM   #648
Sunstealer
Master Poster
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,733
Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
didn't Sunstealer mention something about tnemec.

TAM
And the Tnemec connection was pointed out to me by another JREF member earlier in the thread - I think he was a new one as well.

Last edited by Sunstealer; 7th April 2009 at 11:53 AM.
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 11:52 AM   #649
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by Pardalis View Post
Got nothing better to do than to spam the same video?

you posted that already here.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...91#post4592891
Just can't get enough of this good stuff,lol
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 11:57 AM   #650
Pardalis
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 25,831
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Just can't get enough of this good stuff,lol
Nevermind 17 pages of thread discussing this non-issue with facts and data, you just like to go back to your Youtube Bible for reassurance?

Last edited by Pardalis; 7th April 2009 at 12:14 PM. Reason: added "non"
Pardalis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 11:59 AM   #651
boloboffin
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,001
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Just can't get enough of this good stuff,lol
It is very nice of you to keep pointing out the path to ignorance that Jones has laid for us.
boloboffin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 12:05 PM   #652
BCR
Master Poster
 
BCR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,276
Originally Posted by roundhead View Post
USS Liberty, and out and out lie to cover up for another Govt, and allow US servicemen to die simply for serving our country.

That they were hung out to dry isnt debatable.
But the government DID NOT plan or execute the attack on the Liberty, so again, don't mix apples with oranges.
__________________
"Is your claim that the level of penetration is only governed by distance and not the material that is being penetrated?" - DGM
BCR is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 12:07 PM   #653
ozeco41
Philosopher
 
ozeco41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Moss Vale, NSW, Australia
Posts: 5,128
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Hey....hat might work. Take a sample of the chips under controlled circumstances and analyse them with some monitors to keep everybody honest. Then synthesise a larger batch with the same exact properties and melt a large steel column on TV. That would do it for sure. Very entertaining TV too. The whole Nation could follow it closely.
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
If somebody took the material Jones analysed, painted it on a steel column made from 1" plate, set fire to it, and waited for the column to melt, I think the resulting TV program might only be of interest to 9/11 conspiracy theory debunkers. For anyone else, it would be about as interesting as watching paint burn dry.

Dave
..Well I agree that Bill Smith is way off target of what happened so I agree with the thrust of your position Dave Rogers.

HOWEVER I don't think the results would be of any interest to SERIOUS debunkers???

Why? Because there is no sustainable case for any main columns being cut by thermxte so why even give the slightest bit of credibility to that aspect of the "truther" nonsense and charlatans like Jones.

Structural analysis of the "collapse that actually happened" at WTC 1 & 2 did not involve cutting of columns by thermxte so there is no benefit in testing it and giving pseudo credibility to the conspiracy clowns.

The only possible place where thermate could have been used in the "collapse that actually happened" was on the lower chords of the floor joists in the impact zone. From a structural perspective it could make sense as part of a demolition scenario however there are obvious non-structural reasons why that did not happen. (Unless you allow the hypothesis of fire suited suicide workers fitting it in the minutes after the plane crash. )

So we return to the point I have now made several times on this forum.

The only logically possible reason to discus thermite/thermate in connection with WTC 1 or 2 is for interest ONLY. All the evidence supports that it was neither used nor needed to cause or assist the "collapse that actually happened".

Those who suggest it could or was involved are discussing some other possible collapse. Which by definition is not the "COLLAPSE WHICH ACTUALLY HAPPENED".

A hypothetical fantasy of their imagination.

And hypothetical fantasies do not cause demolition OR collapses.

So why give the "truthers" credibity by falling for their trap and debating their impossible hypothesis????

If the Bill Smiths agree that they are not proposing use of thermxte in demolition then by all means discuss the "evidence" for interest.

But while ever "they" continue to explicitly OR by implication pursue thermxte as if it could be involved in demolition why debate it - the overwhelming weight of other considerations shows that the assumption of thermxte assited demolition is utter nonsense.

Certainly the Bill Smith's could not give a coherent total explanation of how thermxte could be used to produce or assist the "collapse that actually happened". And remember that the burden of proof lies with them to show how, not with the opponents to prove the "global negative" of "could not".


PS1. Apologies to Bill Smith for singling him out - I don't know who is who on this forum yet and he was most recent so I picked his posts as the example.

PS2. I specifically stated WTC 1 & 2 because the bold assertions of no thermxte in the "collapse that happened" is easiest to support/demonstrate on those two - it is more complicated for WTC 7.
ozeco41 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 12:09 PM   #654
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by 911files View Post
But the government DID NOT plan or execute the attack on the Liberty, so again, don't mix apples with oranges.
Was it McNamara or Johnston who said 'recall the wings'....'I want that ship on the bottom' ?
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 12:16 PM   #655
Galileo
Illuminator
 
Galileo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,368
Dr. Stevens Jones is the Next Galileo

Traces of explosives in 9/11 dust, scientists say


By Elaine Jarvik

April 6, 2009

Deseret News

Tiny red and gray chips found in the dust from the collapse of the World Trade Center contain highly explosive materials -- proof, according to a former BYU professor, that 9/11 is still a sinister mystery.

Physicist Steven E. Jones, who retired from Brigham Young University in 2006 after the school recoiled from the controversy surrounding his 9/11 theories, is one of nine authors on a paper published last week in the online, peer-reviewed Open Chemical Physics Journal. Also listed as authors are BYU physics professor Jeffrey Farrer and a professor of nanochemistry at the University of Copenhagen in Denmark.

For several years, Jones has theorized that pre-positioned explosives, not fires from jet fuel, caused the rapid, symmetrical collapse of the two World Trade Center buildings, plus the collapse of a third building, WTC-7.

The newest research, according to the journal authors, shows that dust from the collapsing towers contained a "nano-thermite" material that is highly explosive. Although the article draws no conclusions about the source and purpose of the explosives, Jones has previously supported a theory that the collapse of the WTC towers was part of a government conspiracy to ignore warnings about the 9/11 terrorists so that the attack would propel America to wage war against Afghanistan and Iraq.

....

He likens himself to Galileo and Newton, who stood by their consciences. "I would like to think I could stand up for the truth," he says.

....

READ THE REST - GALILEO WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG!

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/0...295677,00.html

Last edited by Galileo; 7th April 2009 at 12:42 PM.
Galileo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 12:17 PM   #656
BCR
Master Poster
 
BCR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,276
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Was it McNamara or Johnston who said 'recall the wings'....'I want that ship on the bottom' ?
This is starting to sound like a derail effort. There is evidence FDR knew Pearl Harbor was coming, LBJ "faked" the Gulf of Tonkin, but again, apples and oranges. Churchill also allowed an attack on civilans to go ahead without warning in order to keep the Enigma secret. But again, apples and oranges and I don't see any evidence, including Dr. Jones little "pay to play" paper that indicates the government was involved in the WTC attack in any way what-so-ever.
__________________
"Is your claim that the level of penetration is only governed by distance and not the material that is being penetrated?" - DGM
BCR is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 12:18 PM   #657
Pardalis
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 25,831
Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
Physicist Steven E. Jones, who retired from Brigham Young University in 2006
He didn't retire, he was asked to leave.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_E._Jones
Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
Although the article draws no conclusions about the source and purpose of the explosives, Jones has previously supported a theory that the collapse of the WTC towers was part of a government conspiracy
Again, this should raise some red flags about his objectivity, the same goes for his co-authors, who also are 9/11 truth activists.

Last edited by Pardalis; 7th April 2009 at 12:22 PM.
Pardalis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 12:29 PM   #658
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
Dr. Stevens Jones in the Next Galileo

Traces of explosives in 9/11 dust, scientists say


By Elaine Jarvik

April 6, 2009

Deseret News

Tiny red and gray chips found in the dust from the collapse of the World Trade Center contain highly explosive materials -- proof, according to a former BYU professor, that 9/11 is still a sinister mystery.

Physicist Steven E. Jones, who retired from Brigham Young University in 2006 after the school recoiled from the controversy surrounding his 9/11 theories, is one of nine authors on a paper published last week in the online, peer-reviewed Open Chemical Physics Journal. Also listed as authors are BYU physics professor Jeffrey Farrer and a professor of nanochemistry at the University of Copenhagen in Denmark.

For several years, Jones has theorized that pre-positioned explosives, not fires from jet fuel, caused the rapid, symmetrical collapse of the two World Trade Center buildings, plus the collapse of a third building, WTC-7.

The newest research, according to the journal authors, shows that dust from the collapsing towers contained a "nano-thermite" material that is highly explosive. Although the article draws no conclusions about the source and purpose of the explosives, Jones has previously supported a theory that the collapse of the WTC towers was part of a government conspiracy to ignore warnings about the 9/11 terrorists so that the attack would propel America to wage war against Afghanistan and Iraq.

....

He likens himself to Galileo and Newton, who stood by their consciences. "I would like to think I could stand up for the truth," he says.

....

READ THE REST - GALILEO WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG!

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/0...295677,00.html

Fantastic
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 12:34 PM   #659
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by 911files View Post
This is starting to sound like a derail effort. There is evidence FDR knew Pearl Harbor was coming, LBJ "faked" the Gulf of Tonkin, but again, apples and oranges. Churchill also allowed an attack on civilans to go ahead without warning in order to keep the Enigma secret. But again, apples and oranges and I don't see any evidence, including Dr. Jones little "pay to play" paper that indicates the government was involved in the WTC attack in any way what-so-ever.
Well unlke many of your fellow debunkers you accept that it would not be that surprising if 9/11 WAS an inside job.
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 12:35 PM   #660
Pardalis
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 25,831
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Fantastic
Fantastic isn't it? It's as though nothing has been said the past 17 pages. We're back at the start.


Pardalis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 12:38 PM   #661
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by Pardalis View Post
Fantastic isn't it? It's as though nothing has been said the past 17 pages. We're back at the start.


I dd not find the paint argument iin any way compelling. I am completely unmoved.
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'

Last edited by bill smith; 7th April 2009 at 12:38 PM. Reason: spelling
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 12:39 PM   #662
thewholesoul
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 835
Originally Posted by boloboffin View Post
great post Boloboffin.

honestly i am fast becoming browned off defending Jones's paper. i cant believe he never even tested the actual paint that was used on the WTC core columns (indeed that was the only thing he was probably testing?).

he should have isolated a WTC paint sample and then run it through the same trials as the red chips.

if it turns out to be paint that is surely going to damage the truth movement.

peace
thewholesoul is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 12:40 PM   #663
Sunstealer
Master Poster
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,733
Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
Well here are paraphrased summaries of the papers conclusions...
I've crossed some parts out because the language is either odd [and added my own] or it's unsubstantiated.

---------
Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
1. The Red Layer is composed [contains] of Aluminum, Iron, Oxygen, Silicon, and Carbon, and in some cases small amounts of potassium, sulfur, lead, barium, and copper
Correct. Occurs in paint chip.

Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
2. In the Red Layer, the presence of Al, Fe, O, Si, and C, occurs in particles at the scale of tens to hundreds of nanometers, with intimate mixing.
Correct. "intimate mixing" is a misnomer - no metallurgist would ever describe anything as "intimate mixing". Occurs in paint chip.


Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
3. The Red Layer, on treatment with MEK, produced a segregation of componentsmaterial, such that the elemental aluminum concentrated, and was identified in the pre-ignition material.[in the sample prior to the DSC test]
Ok, but the elemental Aluminium concentrated looks dubious, their method vibrates the sample and I there is no optical or SEM photo detailing where the exact analysis was performed - I've still got to look into that further because there is no indication of the point at which they performed EDS analysis. "Pre-ignition material" is another misnomer. No idea about MEK dissolving paint but you'd have to get a range of paints to compare. Possibly occurs in a paint chip.

Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
4. Within the Red Layer, Iron Oxide particles are 100nm grains, and this qualifies the material as nano-thermite or super-thermite.
Correct. But that does not qualify the material as "nano-thermite". Plenty of ordinary materials contain iron oxide powders with particle sizes of this order of magnitude. Pigments and Paint certainly do. Occurs in paint chip.

Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
5. Pre-ignitionIron Oxide was found in all 4 samples[prior to the DSC test], and Elemental iron was not.
Very hard to quantify elemental with EDS bearing in mind the sample, but essentially correct. Nothing odd about this. Occurs in paint chip.

Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
6. Because the Red Layer had elemental aluminum and iron oxide in it, they conclude that the layer contains the ingredients of thermite.
I don't see any proof of elemental Aluminium in SEM photos and corresponding EDS. Their separation method is odd and they don't show any of the elemental Aluminium even though they do and EDS. iron oxide in paint - yes. Elemental Aluminium - possible and would depend on the paint.

Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
7. The Red Layer ignites and reacts vigorously at 430C, with a narrow exotherm, both of which match "closely" to a "known" sample of "superthermite". The tests prove that the material is not standard "thermite" which ignites/reacts at 900C or more.
What about the "gray layer"? Proves it's not thermite - Correct. Their additional data doesn't confirm.

Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
8. Through ignition testing up to 700C, the presence or iron rich spherules was noted, containing elemental iron (based on the changed ratio between the iron and oxygen pre and post ignition). For the sphere to have been formed, an extremely high temp chemical reaction must have occured, to make the iron molten. The chem reaction proposed is a reduction-oxidation reaction...a thermite reaction.
Don't know - only skim-read that part of the paper that contains data on the post DSC test analysis. Takes time to read and understand data. That's a subtle hint for some people btw.


Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
9. The spheroids are without the pre-ignition amounts of both Carbon and Aluminum, which "strikingly" matches spheroids produced after known thermite reactions.
Don't know - haven't read the part of the paper that contains data on the post DSC test analysis. Takes time to read and understand data. That's a subtle hint for some people btw.


Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
10. The Carbon content, along with the amount of energy release, indicates that it would not be classic thermite, but perhaps superthermite.[/b]
Presence of Carbon in the "red layer" indicates the presence of Carbon. There is no way to determine how much Carbon is present nor what the compound it's present in is. Thermite nano or not is Aluminium and Iron Oxide powder. That's it. The paper clearly states.

Quote:
It is also shown that within the red layer there is an intimate mixing of the Fe-rich grains and Al/Si plate-like particles and that these particles are embedded in a carbon-rich matrix.
Therefore Carbon is more likely to be an indicator of some form of (organic) binder. Binders are found in paint. Occurs in paint chip.

------------

Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
Now, given the above,

(A) could our resident experts or people who understand all this stuff, please address the above, as best they can, indicating where Jones is right, wrong, and where it is really irrelevant.

(B) Which of the above could occur from any form of paint chip.
Yes, sure. Added comments above under each question.

Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
(C) Is it possible that the chips are not thermite, not simply paint, but a melded version of paint and other chemicals?
It's possible that the paint has absorbed or reacted with other chemicals, but usually paints are made to not do this, because it degrades them. It might occur at higher than their specified operational temperatures.

Last edited by Sunstealer; 7th April 2009 at 12:44 PM.
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 12:44 PM   #664
thewholesoul
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 835
Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
And the Tnemec connection was pointed out to me by another JREF member earlier in the thread - I think he was a new one as well.
hey sunstealer,

below is Jones's response to your position.

Quote:
"In the section of MEK results in the paper, we state:" Focusing the electron beam on a region rich in silicon, located in Fig. (15e), we find silicon and oxygen and very little else (Fig. 16). Evidently the solvent has disrupted the matrix holding the various particles, allowing some migra-tion and separation of the components. This is a significant result for it means that the aluminum and silicon are not bound chemically."In kaolin and other substances which incorporate Al and Si, the Al and Si are bound chemically -- that is, they will NOT separate under the action of a solvent such as MEK. That is why these MEK tests are so significant! WE thought of the possibility of an alumino-silicate early on of course, but then we did the MEK tests and were observed a separation of Al from other elements with this solvent - and this test RULES OUT strictly the notion that the aluminum which migrated is bound in an aluminosilicate.

From the paper: " Thus, while some of the aluminum may be oxidized, there is insufficient oxygen present to account for all of the aluminum; some of the aluminum must therefore exist in elemental form in the red material. This is an important result." This result also rules out the possibility that the aluminum is present as kaolin. Again, this is why we did the experiment -- to determine whether elemental (not chemically bound) aluminum was present, and it was.
whats your counter? (and if you already posted one i apologise for reguratating old arguments)

a final point i would like to add is whether nano sized particles were being used in primer paint back in 1971 when the towers were constructed?

peace
thewholesoul is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 12:59 PM   #665
thewholesoul
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 835
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Well, not thermite, for a start. Most fuels that require external oxygen sources, however, have far greater energy densities by mass. Look up "energy density" on Wikipedia; TNT contains about 4.6MJ/kg, thermite 4.0MJ/kg. Diesel fuel has about ten times that, as does polystyrene. TNT doesn't really contain that much energy, it just releases it very quickly. Higher energy density is evidence against thermite.

ETA: Hadn't been following the thread, so I didn't realise just how many times this question had been answered. TheWholeSoul, someone should point this out to you: what you're asking is a stupid question, and it's been pointed out to you repeatedly that it's a stupid question. If you ask it a dozen more times, it won't magically turn into an intelligent question.

Dave
no need to be rude Dave. its a valid question. the red chips release a lot of energy for their mass. they also produce iron spehericles. can the primer paint on the WTC also do that? if so then the game is up for Jones.

higher energy density may be against thermite but not against super thermite.

peace and please try to remain polite in future exchanges.
thewholesoul is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 01:01 PM   #666
Sunstealer
Master Poster
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,733
He's never heard of dissolution in Kaolin then and the fact that the rate of dissolution is it's affected by stirring. Alumina is only weakly bonded to Silica in Kaolins. Again he uses only a spot beam on his separated aluminium particles but doesn't give a SEM photo as to where they are.

I'm not going to conduct an argument via proxy with him over the internet. It is going to take a few weeks to look into the claims - it's hard work and takes hours, not a casual glance at the pretty pictures and the conclusions. He is more than welcome to join JREF and post here.

There is nothing special about the word nano. It is beginning to annoy me just like the buzzword "titanium" is used in Golf Clubs and shaving razors. Oxide pigments have been used for thousands of years by human beings (cave paintings), their industrial processing is going to give greater consistency of product. Note how MIO has been used for 100 years including on the Eiffel Tower. That product is made of nano sized particles and is pre-1971. I see no reason why similar sized particles wouldn't be used in paints or primers.

Edited to add. The paper is quite large with lots and lots of data across a number of areas. It would take some one who knows what they are on about roughly 2 hours to read and understand the paper in it's entirety let alone looking specifically at the data and claims. It also has some odd terminology which is hard to decipher as to the exact meaning. It would have been easier if it was broken down into the SEM analysis and a consequent discussion and then a DSC analysis and consequent discussion

Last edited by Sunstealer; 7th April 2009 at 01:07 PM.
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 01:07 PM   #667
alienentity
Illuminator
 
alienentity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,330
Sorry for the previous OT.

Regarding the low ignition temp, is there any evidence that real therm*te can ignite at such temps?
If not, wouldn't it immediately falsify this material as therm*te, as suggested?

Is the fat lady singing yet?
alienentity is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 01:07 PM   #668
BCR
Master Poster
 
BCR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,276
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Well unlke many of your fellow debunkers you accept that it would not be that surprising if 9/11 WAS an inside job.
First, I am not a debunker, I am a truther. Second, I would be very shocked to learn that since there is no evidence for it.
__________________
"Is your claim that the level of penetration is only governed by distance and not the material that is being penetrated?" - DGM
BCR is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 01:08 PM   #669
thewholesoul
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 835
(apologise in advance for brief misdirection on thread topic)

Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
There is no way that either version of thermxte was the cause of the molten aluminium (aka "Steel") which cascaded from a single point source at 80 or so storeys height.
it is a fact that thermite reactions produce molten iron.

Now NIST claimed that the molten flow was "molten aluminium mixed with organics"

this claim has been debunked - that is proven empirically to be false in a labratory.

unless that is you can "produce a bright orange glow, as seen flowing from the south tower, from molten aluminium mixed with organics in daylight using temperatures no greater than expected from a hydrocarbon jet fuel fire.”

as for the citation for the fireproofing upgrade
http://www.911blogger.com/node/13272

peace

Last edited by thewholesoul; 7th April 2009 at 01:10 PM.
thewholesoul is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 01:18 PM   #670
alienentity
Illuminator
 
alienentity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,330
Look Ma! It glows!

Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
(apologise in advance for brief misdirection on thread topic)



it is a fact that thermite reactions produce molten iron.

Now NIST claimed that the molten flow was "molten aluminium mixed with organics"

this claim has been debunked - that is proven empirically to be false in a labratory.
Here's your glowing Aluminum:





Since the color of the molten metal in the tower indicated something around 1000 C, this automatically eliminates steel anyway. Steel isn't molten at that temp.

What else do you suggest it was, except something like molten Al?
alienentity is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 01:19 PM   #671
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by 911files View Post
First, I am not a debunker, I am a truther. Second, I would be very shocked to learn that since there is no evidence for it.
Your philosophy places you outside the ranks of the tradtional 9/11 Truther who unfailingly believes that 9/11 WAS an inside job. You may however be a Truther of sorts by your own definition.
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'

Last edited by bill smith; 7th April 2009 at 01:29 PM.
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 01:19 PM   #672
Senenmut
Graduate Poster
 
Senenmut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,345
thewholesoul states-
"In kaolin and other substances which incorporate Al and Si, the Al and Si are bound chemically -- that is, they will NOT separate under the action of a solvent such as MEK. That is why these MEK tests are so significant! WE thought of the possibility of an alumino-silicate early on of course, but then we did the MEK tests and were observed a separation of Al from other elements with this solvent - and this test RULES OUT strictly the notion that the aluminum which migrated is bound in an aluminosilicate."

that is exactly what i was wondering pages back!! elemental aluminum. why do u think jones didnt check for aluminum oxide when the reaction occured...
Senenmut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 01:19 PM   #673
16.5
Philosopher
 
16.5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,758
Originally Posted by thewholesoul View Post
hey sunstealer,

below is Jones's response to your position.



whats your counter? (and if you already posted one i apologise for reguratating old arguments)

a final point i would like to add is whether nano sized particles were being used in primer paint back in 1971 when the towers were constructed?

peace
Say, why don't you get the answer about why he did not disclose the results of the two earlier tests in his article?

By the way, why doesn't he join here?

Take those back to him, will ya?

KTHXBYE
__________________
The Fallacy of Pseudo-refuting Descriptions

The art of labeling an argument in a dismissive fashion being used as an argument in and of itself. Ex: Labeling facts as a conspiracy theory
16.5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 01:26 PM   #674
alienentity
Illuminator
 
alienentity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,330
thewholesoul - I checked the link you gave, thanks.

Have you followed all the links? I can't find any meaningful answers, just more questions about it. It appears to be yet another 'what if?' that deadends immediately. It's not proof of anything that I can see.

I haven't seen this much speculation since the housing bubble.
alienentity is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 01:27 PM   #675
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
Here's your glowing Aluminum:



http://www.internationalskeptics.com...bb48f59539.jpg

Since the color of the molten metal in the tower indicated something around 1000 C, this automatically eliminates steel anyway. Steel isn't molten at that temp.

What else do you suggest it was, except something like molten Al?
Steel with a good dose of thermite or thermite with added sulphur (thermate) may well be molten at 1.000 degrees C. Does metal that is silver when molten glow orange ?
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 01:28 PM   #676
alienentity
Illuminator
 
alienentity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,330
I take it the 9/11 truth movement will reserve judgment on these findings until they can be independently verified. NOT!
alienentity is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 01:29 PM   #677
Galileo
Illuminator
 
Galileo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,368
Originally Posted by 911files View Post
But the government DID NOT plan or execute the attack on the Liberty, so again, don't mix apples with oranges.
LBJ worked with Israel on the USS Liberty. He sent the Liberty to a specific location, and then recalled the help.

You are mixing red herrings with unicorns.
Galileo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 01:31 PM   #678
Galileo
Illuminator
 
Galileo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,368
Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
I take it the 9/11 truth movement will reserve judgment on these findings until they can be independently verified. NOT!
Dr. Jones made these discoveries a few years ago. Now they have been independently verified by a new team of scientists and confirmed by tough referees.

Galileo also confirms the findings as well.

Last edited by Galileo; 7th April 2009 at 01:39 PM.
Galileo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 01:32 PM   #679
alienentity
Illuminator
 
alienentity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,330
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Steel with a good dose of thermite or thermite with added sulphur (thermate) may well be molten at 1.000 degrees C. Does metal that is silver when molten glow orange ?
Wow, that would take a huge amount of therm*te to accomplish pools of molten steel.
They must've painted it on real thick, at least a couple mm.

You do realize that the two claims contradict one another don't you bill?

And the answer to the Aluminum question is in the picture I supplied of glowing Al. Didn't you see it?
alienentity is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th April 2009, 01:34 PM   #680
bill smith
Philosopher
 
bill smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,408
Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
I take it the 9/11 truth movement will reserve judgment on these findings until they can be independently verified. NOT!
You can't keep a dog from his dinner. lol
__________________
*Think WTC7 - You cannot make the four corners of a table fall together unless you cut the four legs together
*A kitchen table judgement on a world scale is enough
* To Citizens: 'There comes a time when silence is betrayal'
bill smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:02 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.