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Tags 911 conspiracy theory , thermite , wtc1 , wtc2

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Old 8th April 2009, 12:47 PM   #961
A W Smith
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getting kinda warm in here. someone notify Al Roker!

reading Gregory's post im sure jonesie getting hot under the collar. He may have to loosen up that tie.


So
Hey Jonesie!!

Name one steel framed hi rise that globally collapsed by being heated to 8 deg. C over room temperature! Just one! C'mon Jonesie you can do it!
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Old 8th April 2009, 12:48 PM   #962
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
I see Dr. Greening is also reading the forum, and despite his dislike of most of us, he has taken some of our criticisms to heart, and emailed S. Jones with some questions around it.

Here is what I would like to know, and if anyone can get this to Dr. Greening, or if someone can answer it here, i would like to know....

In many of the "Red Chip" Spectra, there is no Zinc or Chromium spikes. Is there an explanation for this, if we assume that the chips are those of primer paint. In other words, could a reaction (physical or chemical) have taken place either during the explosion, or due to exposure to the elements or improper storage of the samples, that might have caused the removal of the Zinc and Chromium?

Thanks

TAM
TAM, your welcome to join us at the911forum so you could ask him directly.
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Old 8th April 2009, 12:49 PM   #963
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This:
Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
so it would have required doping the whole structure with thermite paint.

Is not the same as this:
Quote:
the further removal of structure.
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Old 8th April 2009, 12:49 PM   #964
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
You are arguing from authority, not from science. Did you not learn your Galileo when you were young?

The NIST report does indeed have many qualified scientists. But their report has not been peer reviewed by referees, nor have they released their computer models, so it is impossible at this time to subject them to peer review.
Is it customary for NIST to subject all of its publications to the peer review process? What about the process of producing this report was inadequate due to the fact that it was not peer-reviewed in a scientific journal? (Other than the fact that responses & criticisms would be limited to a select group of scientists, rather than being open to anyone who wished to respond)

Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
the NIST report is just that, a government report, nothing more.
The government paid for it, but it was not produced solely by the government.

Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
Also, NIST is suspected in the 9/11 cover-up. Real science regarding 9/11 should not be left to the very people who are suspected.
Suspected by whom? You? Other truthers?

Using your logic we should also reject the findings of Kevin Ryan, Steven Jones, Richard Gage, CIT, etc because they are suspected of using 9/11 conspiracy theories for personal gain.

If not NIST, who should the science be left to?


Originally Posted by roundhead View Post
many people wrote rebuttals to the NIST report, and they allowed only a very short window to accept such rebuttals, once the report was made public.
Do you feel that the time window for rebuttals was inadequate?

Originally Posted by roundhead View Post
Lets see if anybody on the planet scientifically rebutts this nano thermite paper.I would think people would be crawling out of the woodwork to do so.
Why? What will happen if they don't?
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Last edited by nicepants; 8th April 2009 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 8th April 2009, 12:50 PM   #965
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My reading of spectral output is ancient, to the point where basically I have forgotten how to do so.

Is it possible that the Sodium (Na) peaks are Zinc Peaks, given they occur at almost identical placed on the spectra (around the 1 keV)?

TAM
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Old 8th April 2009, 12:50 PM   #966
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
That's an excellent discussion. Do I have this right that Dr. G is suggesting that the red chips analyzed in the different spectra are not the same? So that some are possibly primer paint, and some are definitely not paint, due to either the presence or lack thereof, of zinc?
Yes, that is my understanding.
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Old 8th April 2009, 12:51 PM   #967
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Originally Posted by GregoryUrich View Post
TAM, your welcome to join us at the911forum so you could ask him directly.
Who runs the forum? If they are part of the truth movement, I will decline. My personal information only goes to those I trust. Thanks for the invite.

TAM
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Old 8th April 2009, 12:52 PM   #968
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Originally Posted by GregoryUrich View Post
Just had a quick look at that, they pick up on the magnetic issue too. I'm also intrigued by the 6th post down

Quote:
3. The XEDS spectra for the gray layers of your samples, (shown in Figure 6 of your paper), exhibit a small peak at ~ 5.9 keV which indicates the presence of Mn. The height of this peak relative to the Fe peak at 6.4 keV shows that the Mn is about 1 % the abundance of the Fe. This surely suggests that A-36 steel is the most likely source of Fe in the gray layers of the chips, since A-36 steel contains about 1 % Mn. This is inconsistent with your proposed origin of the chips.
Makes that layer more consistent with



The small peak is only visible in samples a,b and d. Is this statistically significant amongst the background? Did the equipment not label this peak? Did they look closer at it or not notice? I myself thought it was part of the "noise". It's not in the microsphere Fig 21 so that would suggest ruling out the "gray layer" as a source.
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Old 8th April 2009, 12:54 PM   #969
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Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
Just had a quick look at that, they pick up on the magnetic issue too. I'm also intrigued by the 6th post down



Makes that layer more consistent with

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g1...d-At-Birth.jpg

The small peak is only visible in samples a,b and d. Is this statistically significant amongst the background? Did the equipment not label this peak? Did they look closer at it or not notice? I myself thought it was part of the "noise". It's not in the microsphere Fig 21 so that would suggest ruling out the "gray layer" as a source.
That is some mileage you're getting out of that picture, man.

I should download and save it for myself. In case this paper gets evangelized somewhere else...
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Old 8th April 2009, 12:54 PM   #970
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
I agree this part of the discussion is interesting, which is why I asked my question about the Zinc absence in the other Spectra, and whether or not any physical or chemical reactions in the 8 years since the samples came about, may have caused the absence of the Zinc (and Chromium).

TAM
Yeah, I think you're asking fair questions. Although I don't know if you want to join that discussion, it's a real vicious snakepit over there.

If I used smilies I'd post the one that shakes his head back and forth to indicate the opposite.
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Old 8th April 2009, 12:55 PM   #971
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Sunstealer, given their proximity on the spectral outputs, is it possible the Na Peaks are in fact Zn Peaks?

TAM
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Old 8th April 2009, 01:06 PM   #972
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
That's an excellent discussion. Do I have this right that Dr. G is suggesting that the red chips analyzed in the different spectra are not the same? So that some are possibly primer paint, and some are definitely not paint, due to either the presence or lack thereof, of zinc?
Well this is something that struck me as odd when comparing EDS data - Figs 7, 14 don't tally thus suggesting different materials.

Why does all of the paint have to be of the exact same composition and from a single manufacture? It wouldn't be beyond reasonable doubt to suggest that samples in Jones' paper are more than one type of paint. Surely if this material were thermite then the composition would be common across all spectra?
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Old 8th April 2009, 01:09 PM   #973
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Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus View Post
That is some mileage you're getting out of that picture, man.

I should download and save it for myself. In case this paper gets evangelized somewhere else...
I know it's lovely and I'm grateful it was made. A picture paints a thousand words.
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Old 8th April 2009, 01:10 PM   #974
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
High energy release per unit mass suggests that the chips don't contain the oxygen needed for combustion, because that tends to limit the energy density.
Don't you have this backwards?

Quote:
Higher energy release per unit mass than TNT suggests that the material isn't thermite.
Figure 1, page 9, in MODELING THE MELT DISPERSION MECHANISM FOR NANOPARTICLE COMBUSTION clearly shows that "traditional" (be which I assume he means non-nano-themite) Al/Fe2O3 thermite reactions release both more heat per unit mass, as well as more heat per unit volume, then either HMX, RDX, or TNT.

Quote:
Again, this has been corrected several times in this thread. The energy density of "super thermite" is exactly the same as that of the same thermite composition with a greater particle size.
Wrong, again. See figure 7.3, p. 114, in Grainier's thesis, COMBUSTION CHARACTERISTICS OF A1 NANOPARTICLES AND NANOCOMPOSITE A1+MoO3 THERMITES, for Al/MoO3 thermite. The difference isn't even 1 order of magnitude, but it's not close to "exactly the same", either. Apparently, you're thinking of perfect reactions.


Quote:
The only difference in "super thermite" is that the energy is released faster, but that isn't what Jones is testing. Therefore, higher energy density argues against "super thermite" to exactly the same degree that it argues against thermite. This is basic chemistry.
Well, what do you have to say, now?
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Old 8th April 2009, 01:10 PM   #975
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Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
Well this is something that struck me as odd when comparing EDS data - Figs 7, 14 don't tally thus suggesting different materials.

Why does all of the paint have to be of the exact same composition and from a single manufacture? It wouldn't be beyond reasonable doubt to suggest that samples in Jones' paper are more than one type of paint. Surely if this material were thermite then the composition would be common across all spectra?
So in the end, the results are FAR from conclusive, wrt to the existence of "superthermite" in the dust. It could very easily be Primer paint(s).

Can you tell me, if the Na peaks are close enough to the Zn peaks to be mistaken in some of the other spectra, or are their locations, while close to one another, close enough to say they are in fact Na and Zn as given in the paper?

TAM
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Old 8th April 2009, 01:11 PM   #976
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
Who runs the forum? If they are part of the truth movement, I will decline. My personal information only goes to those I trust. Thanks for the invite.

TAM
the911forum is neutral. I'm the owner and only admin/moderator. If you use an anonymous e-mail account, the only thing to identify you is your IP number.
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Old 8th April 2009, 01:15 PM   #977
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Originally Posted by GregoryUrich View Post
the911forum is neutral. I'm the owner and only admin/moderator. If you use an anonymous e-mail account, the only thing to identify you is your IP number.
I will take it under advisement. It does seem to be a bit more civil over there. I may just lurk for now, and join later. Not sure I have much to add.

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Old 8th April 2009, 01:18 PM   #978
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Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
Just had a quick look at that, they pick up on the magnetic issue too. I'm also intrigued by the 6th post down

...

The small peak is only visible in samples a,b and d. Is this statistically significant amongst the background? Did the equipment not label this peak? Did they look closer at it or not notice? I myself thought it was part of the "noise". It's not in the microsphere Fig 21 so that would suggest ruling out the "gray layer" as a source.
I don't get the magnetic issue. I thought there was elemental Al in the sample. Al is paramagnetic.
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Old 8th April 2009, 01:30 PM   #979
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Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
Here's a link to the Jones/Robertson debate. If memory serves I believe Dr. Jones alleges a 10 second collapse time for one of the towers. I was very surprised at his lack of awareness of basic facts, as he is supposed to be a scientist.

http://www.911podcasts.com/files/aud...n_20061026.mp3
I doubt he will change his tune. I have discussed just that issue with him on the STJ911 forum. I pointed out that the times given by NIST were for the first heavy debris to hit the ground. It can be seen in the videos that nearly half the building was standing at that point. A more realistic time for WTC1 is 14-15 seconds as even Jim Hoffman has concluded. I wrote a paper on the implications (or rather lack thereof) of the fall times, but The Journal of 9/11 Studies wouldn't consider it and told me to try elsewhere.
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Old 8th April 2009, 01:31 PM   #980
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Originally Posted by metamars View Post
Don't you have this backwards?
Nope. If the oxidizer is included in the mass, that means there's less room for the combustable material. If it burns using atmospheric oxygen, then the whole mass can be the combustible.
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Old 8th April 2009, 01:32 PM   #981
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
So in the end, the results are FAR from conclusive, wrt to the existence of "superthermite" in the dust. It could very easily be Primer paint(s).
Not all of the samples, just those that exhibit the presence of zinc.
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Old 8th April 2009, 01:35 PM   #982
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Originally Posted by Lenbrazil View Post
Galileo since you aren't a native speaker your reading comprehension erroe was understandable. I don't believe Bentham ever published anything by a Nobel laureate, they only claim to be ENDORSED by 7 of them. Most of those endorsements were for traditional journals put out by Bentham which don't charge authors for publication. IIRC 1 or 2 were for the concept of open publishing but didn't mention the company by name, this didn't stop them from counting them as endorsements.

As for NIST's models as has been explained more than once they only run on super computors not PC's or even Macs IIRC they have offer to make the models available to people with the requisite computing capacity.

Their report wasn't peer reviewed because it wasn't a journal article, Several articles supporting the collapse theory have been published in ESTABLISHED scientific journals that DON'T charge their authors fees.
Are you a socialist? You have a problem with a small fee being paid.
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Old 8th April 2009, 01:37 PM   #983
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Not all of the samples, just those that exhibit the presence of zinc.
No, that is not true unless you can prove that other paints that may have been used in the WTC would not have presented similar spectrums to those in Jones paper. Jone paper has to prove that the spectra and other data prove that THE ONLY thing in that pile that could have produced such data, was superthermite. he has not.

TAM
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Old 8th April 2009, 01:40 PM   #984
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1. Yes there is a problem with "Pay to play" techniques, such as those used by Bentham.
2. They also used viral emailing techniques to obtain their "editors" for their "journals". This involved some cases where people who were educated in TOTALLY UNRELATED FIELDS were offered editorships. Offering a PhD in English a position as an editor on the board for "Astrophysics" for a hypothetical example...

TAM
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Old 8th April 2009, 01:41 PM   #985
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Correct me if i am wrong, but does part of that "fee" have to do with the lenght of the paper, and the included photos?

Not that it matters, but i think Ryan said some journals limit the size of a paper, so not all journals can be approached simply because of size and other limitations.
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Old 8th April 2009, 01:43 PM   #986
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
This:

Is not the same as this:
Hi Red,

I had a quick listen while I was working out. Here's the quote:

about 16:40 into the mp3 'whereas the buldings collapsed in about 10 seconds...
The only way then to achieve this rapid and complete fall , and symetrical as well, is through the use of explosives to move the mass out of the way'

On Robertson's prodding he also agreed that it would have to be every 2 or 3 floors throughout the building.'

http://www.911podcasts.com/files/aud...n_20061026.mp3
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Old 8th April 2009, 01:46 PM   #987
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You honestly want to know what Bentham is up to, start with these links...

http://gunther-eysenbach.blogspot.co...-journals.html

http://www.library.yale.edu/~llicens.../msg00027.html

https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin...&P=R10547&I=-3

For starters...

much more info, here

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...=110489&page=8

TAM
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Old 8th April 2009, 02:01 PM   #988
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
So in the end, the results are FAR from conclusive, wrt to the existence of "superthermite" in the dust. It could very easily be Primer paint(s).

Can you tell me, if the Na peaks are close enough to the Zn peaks to be mistaken in some of the other spectra, or are their locations, while close to one another, close enough to say they are in fact Na and Zn as given in the paper?

TAM
Yes it could very well be Zn. Usually Na and Zn are marked on the printout on the same peak (CuLα peak is just under 1KeV too). There are corresponding peaks around 8.6-7 and 9.6 for Zn too.

In Fig 14 the 1 KeV peak is labelled as Zn and has a corresponding 8.7 peak. It may well be that because of the absence of the later peak that the 1KeV peak is labelled Na in all the other spectra.

You'll note that in the majority of spectra that label the 1KeV peak as Na there is also a K (Potassium) peak at @ 3.3KeV - Figs 7c, 11, (it's not labelled in 14 but looks like it's there), and 24.

Not sure what to make of that.

Either way I've no idea why you'd want either in thermite!

Edited to add:

Quote:
Particle Atlas of World Trade Center Dust

Mineral material

Mineral material includes all particles that generally occur as rock-forming minerals. The primary components in this group include quartz (SiO2), feldspars ((Ca,Na,K)1(Si,Al)4O8), micas (including vermiculite), talc (Mg3Si4O10(OH)2), calcite (CaCO3), dolomite (CaMg(CO3)2), sulfide minerals, barite (BaSO4), and others. Quartz is distinguished from other Si-rich phases, such as glass shards, based on the absence of other trace to minor elements such as Na, K, and Al. Compare Si-03 and Si-01, respectively.
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2005/1165/50...html#heading09

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Old 8th April 2009, 02:02 PM   #989
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Originally Posted by phunk View Post
Which agrees with what everyone except the truthers are saying, that it releases the same amount of energy, except it does it faster. This is high school chemistry, it's not hard to understand.
Just curious, but did you and Dave go to the same high school?
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Old 8th April 2009, 02:05 PM   #990
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More bad news for the JREFers. Another famous authority figure has endorsed the findings of the International Team of Experts:

Exotic High Tech Explosives Positively Identified in World Trade Center Dust

— Editor

A ground-breaking scientific paper confirmed this week that red-gray flakes found throughout multiple samples of WTC dust are actually unexploded fragments of nanothermite, an exotic high-tech explosive.

The samples were taken from far-separated locations in Manhattan, some as early as 10 minutes after the second tower (WTC 1) collapsed, ruling out any possible contamination from cleanup operations.

Authored by an international team of physicists, chemists, and others, the research paper was titled "Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe." It was published in The Open Chemical Physics Journal, 2009, Vol. 2., and is available online for free download. The lead author is Niels H. Harrit of the Department of Chemistry, University of Copenhagen.

READ THE REST, AND FOREVER REST YOUR PEACE!

http://www.ae911truth.org/info/51
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Old 8th April 2009, 02:06 PM   #991
Pardalis
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Originally Posted by roundhead View Post
HeHe.........

Exactly, what we have on here are armchair quarterbacks that havent conducted scientific experiments on the dust, as these credentialed professionals have, and that being the case, they are slumped in their seats way out on center field in the boo bird section.

Until i see this study scientifically refuted, i have no reason to believe its findings arent accurate.

Neither does anybody else on the planet with more than one brain cell
Let's see how this paper resonates in the scientific community...

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Old 8th April 2009, 02:08 PM   #992
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Originally Posted by GregoryUrich View Post
I don't get the magnetic issue. I thought there was elemental Al in the sample. Al is paramagnetic.
Well I think that the elemental Al issue is still up for debate - They only say that they picked a region of the sample for the EDS and don't give and exact area nor the corresponding SEM photo. It might sound a bit picky, but i'd like conformation.

Isn't paramagnetism only present in a magnetic field? The material doesn't exhibit magnetic properties outside of the field. I'm just trying to see if it might explain why the elemental aluminium concentrated during the 55 hours in MEK with agitation.
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Old 8th April 2009, 02:10 PM   #993
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
More bad news for the JREFers. Another famous authority figure has endorsed the findings of the International Team of Experts:

Exotic High Tech Explosives Positively Identified in World Trade Center Dust

— Editor

A ground-breaking scientific paper confirmed this week that red-gray flakes found throughout multiple samples of WTC dust are actually unexploded fragments of nanothermite, an exotic high-tech explosive.

The samples were taken from far-separated locations in Manhattan, some as early as 10 minutes after the second tower (WTC 1) collapsed, ruling out any possible contamination from cleanup operations.

Authored by an international team of physicists, chemists, and others, the research paper was titled "Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe." It was published in The Open Chemical Physics Journal, 2009, Vol. 2., and is available online for free download. The lead author is Niels H. Harrit of the Department of Chemistry, University of Copenhagen.

READ THE REST, AND FOREVER REST YOUR PEACE!

http://www.ae911truth.org/info/51
Wow, a twoofer site touts a worthless vanity journal article. Big deal. The paper's been torn apart here and elsewhere.
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Old 8th April 2009, 02:12 PM   #994
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
I could really care less what they are up to. I want to see the paper scientifically debunked, or not debunked. If it stands unrebutted scientifically, its extremely important work.
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Old 8th April 2009, 02:13 PM   #995
Pardalis
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Originally Posted by lapman View Post
Wow, a twoofer site touts a worthless vanity journal article. Big deal. The paper's been torn apart here and elsewhere.
He's just repeating the same links over and over again, as if it'll make it true.
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Old 8th April 2009, 02:13 PM   #996
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Originally Posted by Pardalis View Post
I suspect it will remain unrebutted.
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Old 8th April 2009, 02:14 PM   #997
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Originally Posted by roundhead View Post
I suspect it will remain unrebutted.
Assuming that's the case, and assuming it hasn't been debunked already in this thread, what will happen then?
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Old 8th April 2009, 02:15 PM   #998
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Originally Posted by lapman View Post
Wow, a twoofer site touts a worthless vanity journal article. Big deal. The paper's been torn apart here and elsewhere.
dude, this is a science forum. There is no such word as "twoofer" in science. The paper is being supported by other experts, contrary to your false assertions. Show me a qualified scientist who have published an article that tears apart the paper. If you can't that makes you a liar as well.
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Old 8th April 2009, 02:18 PM   #999
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
More bad news for the JREFers. Another famous authority figure has endorsed the findings of the International Team of Experts:

Exotic High Tech Explosives Positively Identified in World Trade Center Dust

ó Editor



http://www.ae911truth.org/info/51
What do you expect from a pig but a grunt?
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Old 8th April 2009, 02:20 PM   #1000
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
More bad news for the JREFers. Another famous authority figure has endorsed the findings of the International Team of Experts:

Exotic High Tech Explosives Positively Identified in World Trade Center Dust

ó Editor

A ground-breaking scientific paper confirmed this week that red-gray flakes found throughout multiple samples of WTC dust are actually unexploded fragments of nanothermite, an exotic high-tech explosive.

The samples were taken from far-separated locations in Manhattan, some as early as 10 minutes after the second tower (WTC 1) collapsed, ruling out any possible contamination from cleanup operations.

Authored by an international team of physicists, chemists, and others, the research paper was titled "Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe." It was published in The Open Chemical Physics Journal, 2009, Vol. 2., and is available online for free download. The lead author is Niels H. Harrit of the Department of Chemistry, University of Copenhagen.

READ THE REST, AND FOREVER REST YOUR PEACE!

http://www.ae911truth.org/info/51
AE911Truth is one of the organizations behind the paper, Galileo. They're listed on the front page.

Famous Authority Figure Endorses Own Paper
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