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Tags explosives , jim hoffman , thermite , wtc

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Old 20th April 2009, 04:08 PM   #1
Galileo
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Thermitic Pyrotechnics in the WTC Made Simple

Thermitic Pyrotechnics in the WTC Made Simple

Three Points of Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe that Anyone Can Understand


by Jim Hoffman

Version 0.7, April 18, 2009


Introduction

The scientific paper Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe provides, quite simply, proof that explosives were used in the destruction of the Twin Towers. Specifically, the paper positively identifies an advanced engineered pyrotechnic material in each of several samples of dust from the destroyed skyscrapers, in the form of tiny chips having red and gray sides and sharing a very specific three-dimensional structure, chemical composition, and ignition behavior.

The basis and validity of this identification can grasped quickly by anyone with a working knowledge of physics and chemistry. They need only read the paper's one-page conlusion, and perhaps its section describing the provenance of the dust samples.

But what of the reader whose strong suit isn't the hard sciences? Does one have to be an expert to understand the findings and evaluate the many claims thrown up by "debunkers" to dismiss those findings?

Fortunately, the answer is no. The central observations of the paper can be understood by any intelligent person with some effort. In this thumbnail summary of the paper's findings, I focus on three easy-to-remember features of the red-gray chips established by the paper -- features that undeniably show that the chips are a high-tech engineered pyrotechnic material. Because my description includes some technical language, I have provided a glossary for the benefit of the non-technical reader.

Contents

Introduction

Three Features of the Red-Gray Chips

1. Physical Structure
2. Chemical Composition
3. Thermal Behavior

Conclusion

Glossary

Three Features of the Red-Gray Chips

PLEASE READ THE REST:

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/t...de_simple.html



UPDATE

This thread is only about the three scientific points made by Jim Hoffman in his article, or related points about the science of the thermite paper.

It is NOT about:

* theories about chain-of-custody

* theories about the Bentham Scientific journal

* theories about Dr. Steven Jones or the other scientists

Moderators; please delete any posts that are not germane to this thread. Thank you.

Last edited by Galileo; 20th April 2009 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 20th April 2009, 04:11 PM   #2
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Shouldn't this be merged into one of the numerous threads about this subject? Isn't this actually more of an issue that should have been posted in those pre-existing threads?
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Old 20th April 2009, 04:13 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
Thermitic Pyrotechnics in the WTC Made Simple
They simply didn't exist.
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Old 20th April 2009, 04:29 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
They simply didn't exist.
The scientists found them. You have not the WTC dust, the scientists did.
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Old 20th April 2009, 04:31 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by fullflavormenthol View Post
Shouldn't this be merged into one of the numerous threads about this subject? Isn't this actually more of an issue that should have been posted in those pre-existing threads?
No, this thread is focused on the elementry science of the thermite finds.

It will not be bogged down by conspiracy theories. It will focus only on what the scientists found, and the science behind it.
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Old 20th April 2009, 04:44 PM   #6
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But this one centers on Hoffman's blather.

Dim bulb seems not to think it significant that the reagents are not uniformly distributed through the chips.

Dude, that works for paint. The elements found are supposed to be in paint.

Inhomogenous mixtures of incendiaries and explosives are generally useless.

It's PAINT, you moron.
Stick to teaching math, Hoffman.
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Old 20th April 2009, 04:44 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
It will not be bogged down by conspiracy theories.
Too late.
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Old 20th April 2009, 04:48 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
But this one centers on Hoffman's blather.

Dim bulb seems not to think it significant that the reagents are not uniformly distributed through the chips.

Dude, that works for paint. The elements found are supposed to be in paint.

Inhomogenous mixtures of incendiaries and explosives are generally useless.

It's PAINT, you moron.
Stick to teaching math, Hoffman.
please read the update.
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Old 20th April 2009, 04:55 PM   #9
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Okay, well it doesn't really provide anything new. There is still the issue of not being able to show that these chips are anything other than paint. Honestly this has been covered in the other threads.

It is paint.
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Old 20th April 2009, 04:56 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
The scientists found them. You have not the WTC dust, the scientists did.
No the scientists did not find the samples they were found by various individuals.

Why did they have to go all the way to the Brooklyn bridge for a sample? I would think ground zero where the debris was would be the best place to find a sample of the debris.

I quit buying bridges from strangers some time ago.
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Old 20th April 2009, 05:00 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
No the scientists did not find the samples they were found by various individuals.

Why did they have to go all the way to the Brooklyn bridge for a sample? I would think ground zero where the debris was would be the best place to find a sample of the debris.

I quit buying bridges from strangers some time ago.
Maybe the light was better there?
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Old 20th April 2009, 05:02 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
The scientists found them. You have not the WTC dust, the scientists did.
repeating this lie doesn't make it true

It has never been true since 9/11/2001


get a new act gallileo this one is getting quite old
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Old 20th April 2009, 05:05 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
please read the update.
He still shows inconsistant make-up from one chip or part of a chip to the next.

Okay for paint, but it kills therm*te.
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Old 20th April 2009, 05:08 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
The scientists found them. You have not the WTC dust, the scientists did.
Are you using "thermitic pyrotechnics" as a synonym for "paint chips"?
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Old 20th April 2009, 05:24 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by fullflavormenthol View Post
Okay, well it doesn't really provide anything new. There is still the issue of not being able to show that these chips are anything other than paint. Honestly this has been covered in the other threads.

It is paint.
This thread is about science.

It is NOT about faith-based appeals to your "authority".
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Old 20th April 2009, 05:26 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Are you using "thermitic pyrotechnics" as a synonym for "paint chips"?
No, I am not.
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Old 20th April 2009, 05:28 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Arus808 View Post
repeating this lie doesn't make it true

It has never been true since 9/11/2001


get a new act gallileo this one is getting quite old
you argue from faith-based authority, not from science.

I would like to give a friendly warning to the JREFers:

There are a lot of lurkers out there who come here to see if the thermite paper can be debunked based on science.

If they come here and read these faith-based authority appeals, they will not be convinced.
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Old 20th April 2009, 05:35 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
...
It will not be bogged down by conspiracy theories.
So why did you post this in a conspiracy sub-forum, exactly? 911 at that...

Quote:
It will focus only on what the scientists found, and the science behind it
If it's all sciency, and stuff, post in the SCIENCE forum!
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Old 20th April 2009, 05:41 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post

There are a lot of lurkers out there who come here to see if the thermite paper can be debunked based on science.

If they come here and read these faith-based authority appeals, they will not be convinced.
The funny thing is, you are the one running on blind faith, not us.
You are right though, lurkers see you get demolished time, and time again!
It doesn't help your side a bit!

Last edited by Dog Town; 20th April 2009 at 05:44 PM.
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Old 20th April 2009, 05:44 PM   #20
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This is the Jim Hoffman that wrote this?

Quote:
The replacement of ceiling tiles throughout the building may have been done on any of a number of schedules. On the one hand the tiles could have been supplied as part of an maintenance contract and installed using the existing building maintenance staff doing what they thought of as normal building maintenance work. Since the new landlord had just taken over in late July of 2001, it wouldn't seem at all unusual to see some refurbishing, especially as unobtrusive as swapping out old ceiling tiles.

Alternatively, the tiles could have been installed during overnight hours by a team of maintenance workers unnoticed by tenants. The logistics of such an operation can be imagined, and some estimates of human resources made.

We know that the Towers had only two types of ceiling tiles: 20-inch squares for the tenant spaces and 12-inch squares for the core spaces. An estimate of the number of tiles per tower is 1,200,000 large tiles and 800,000 small tiles.

The new ceiling tiles with embedded thin-film explosives and wireless detonators are installed throughout every other floor of the Tower. In all, each Tower gets 500,000 of the large tiles and 400,000 of the small tiles.

With workers swapping in new tiles at an average rate of two tiles per minute per worker, it takes a team of fourty workers 187 hours to retrofit an entire Tower. The work is performed in three weeks and weekends of night shifts, emptying one truckload per night, with the truck parking inconspicuously in the WTC subterranean parking garage.
That Jim Hoffman?
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Old 20th April 2009, 05:46 PM   #21
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Fails at chain of custody

Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
The scientists found them. You have not the WTC dust, the scientists did.
Ummm... No they didn't, A few citizens found the dust and held onto it for five years. And Hoffman fails in the first sentence with a bald assertion logical fallacy. Even if it were not simple paint and hypothetically was an incendiary. It fails at chain of custody.

Dismissed
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Old 20th April 2009, 05:47 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post

I would like to give a friendly warning to the JREFers:

There are a lot of lurkers out there who come here to see if the thermite paper can be debunked based on science. .
why don't you just let people think for themselves huh?
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Old 20th April 2009, 05:48 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
The scientists found them. You have not the WTC dust, the scientists did.
this is an utter lie. please don't lie.

what scientific degrees did the folks who found the specimens have?

Last edited by Thunder; 20th April 2009 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 20th April 2009, 05:50 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Dog Town View Post
The funny thing is, you are the one running on blind faith, not us.
You are right though, lurkers see you get demolished time, and time again!
It doesn't help your side a bit!
Yes. Galileo will NEVER get this. It is HE who is running on blind faith. The people here KNOW the science.
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Old 20th April 2009, 06:02 PM   #25
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Galileo- how are you going to deal with it...when this "monumental evidence" fails to get anything done??

how will u deal with another great truther failure? cause its coming soon.

Truthers think this is gonna be their finest hour. But in fact, it will be the final nail in their coffin.

Last edited by Thunder; 20th April 2009 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 20th April 2009, 06:03 PM   #26
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Holy Ganole! Hoffmans a moron!

Quote:
The replacement of ceiling tiles throughout the building may have been done on any of a number of schedules. On the one hand the tiles could have been supplied as part of an maintenance contract and installed using the existing building maintenance staff doing what they thought of as normal building maintenance work. Since the new landlord had just taken over in late July of 2001, it wouldn't seem at all unusual to see some refurbishing, especially as unobtrusive as swapping out old ceiling tiles.

Alternatively, the tiles could have been installed during overnight hours by a team of maintenance workers unnoticed by tenants. The logistics of such an operation can be imagined, and some estimates of human resources made.

We know that the Towers had only two types of ceiling tiles: 20-inch squares for the tenant spaces and 12-inch squares for the core spaces.

20 inch? What the hell module is that? its 24X24 or 24X48,
Quote:
An estimate of the number of tiles per tower is 1,200,000 large tiles and 800,000 small tiles.
Do over! get your module corrected!
Quote:
The new ceiling tiles with embedded thin-film explosives and wireless detonators are installed throughout every other floor of the Tower. In all, each Tower gets 500,000 of the large tiles and 400,000 of the small tiles.

With workers swapping in new tiles at an average rate of two tiles per minute per worker, it takes a team of fourty workers 187 hours to retrofit an entire Tower. The work is performed in three weeks and weekends of night shifts, emptying one truckload per night, with the truck parking inconspicuously in the WTC subterranean parking garage.
If you can find any crew that can change 120 ceiling tiles per man hour. You can do my ceilings for me.


http://craftsman-book.com/products/i...9&detail=intro

Quote:
Placing the ceiling tile in the grid is a simple drop-in process except for borders, corners, lighting, columns and other nuisances. For a simple drop-in ceiling using an average price nonrated tile, the two person crew should be able to install around 250 square feet, or 32 tiles per hour. Tile prices vary depending on cut, style, texture and fire rating.
Hoffman! Your a MORON!
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Old 20th April 2009, 06:05 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
you argue from faith-based authority, not from science.
not even true. I based my facts on the two NIST reports, and the independent reports from other SCHOLARS on the subject

YOU are basing your opinion on the FAITH BASED fact free crap of Jones and Hoffman
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Old 20th April 2009, 06:15 PM   #28
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Strange that Galileo's clone keeps quoting other people's work. One would think he could do his own.
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Old 20th April 2009, 06:15 PM   #29
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Quote:
Specifically, the paper positively identifies an advanced engineered pyrotechnic material in each of several samples of dust from the destroyed skyscrapers, in the form of tiny chips having red and gray sides and sharing a very specific three-dimensional structure
Ha, ha. No - anyone with a pair of eyes and a brain can see that the two layers do not share the same structure. However, I can confirm that yes, indeed these two layers are 3 dimensional! Wow! If you don't believe that these two structures are 3 dimensional just look at this!

Advisory Warning - No you do not require 3D glasses to observe the following image.



Yes, the gray side which doesn't contribute to the reaction as Harrit et al confirm, which has a completely different morphology and chemical composition to the other layer, because it's oxidised steel and the red layer is paint. Who'da thunk it eh? Someone painted some steel and a little insy- winsy bit spalled off and was found in some dust. Halle <rule 10> lujah!

Quote:
The basis and validity of this identification can [be] grasped quickly by anyone with a working knowledge of physics and chemistry. They need only read the paper's one-page conlusion (sic), [uneeded comma] and perhaps its section describing the provenance of the dust samples.
So guess what folks, if you only have a working knowledge of Chemistry and Physics, which lets face it means sweet felicity arkwright, not only are you advised not to look at the data, but to go straight to the conclusions!

Yo buddy! Got physics? Yeah! Ok, just forget about everything else and read the conclusions!

Quote:
The chips, whose structure is consistent from one sample to the next, are clearly an un-natural, manufactured material.
Which they aren't. Samples a,b,c,d are different to the chip subjected to MEK (MEK chip) and again are different to the chip in Fig 31. See the moderated thread where I prove this is not the case.

Quote:
The red layer is a nano-engineered composite, containing two types of nano-particles, each highly consistent in size and shape.
No there is no nano-engineering involved, because none of the particles observed are 100nm or below - the estimates from the SEM photos are approximately 0.2µm or 200nm.


Quote:
A thin red layer is supported by a gray layer of homogenous material. Zooming in on the red layer shows it to be composed of two different types of particles embedded in a porous matrix: thin plates typically hexagonal in shape, and faceted grains.
Well <rule 10> me! They actually describe something correctly!

Quote:
* The particles are very small: the plates being only about 40 nanometers thick, and the grains are only about 100 nanometers in diameter.
* The particles are highly uniform in size and shape.
This isn't too far off either.

Quote:
* The particles are intimately mixed in a highly consistent composition throughout the material.
Balls. Just looking at the pictures shows random mixing. There is nothing consistent on a micro scale and no-one would expect them to be.

Quote:
These are all features of a nano-engineered material. It is not possible that such a material was formed as a by-product of the destruction of the Twin Towers.
Nope, no nano-noona engineering here just good old fashioned rust spalling from a steel surface and taking the paint with it. Wow, who would have thought that paint might contain small particles of things that make up paint.

Quote:
The red layers contain abundant aluminum, iron, and oxygen, where the iron is associated with oxygen, and the aluminum is mostly in a pure, elemental, form.
Utter bollocks. They cannot tell this from the XEDS data and this is a pure lie. Where is the silicon? Why no mention of the silicon? Look it's right here in the paper!



Wow! Who would have thought that these people would lie about what the paper says. Have they no idea that the analysis method used cannot determine what they are saying, let alone the fact that the platelets containing Aluminium also have significant amounts of Si and O showing that they are likely to be aluminosilicates and not pure aluminium (with an oxide layer)?

Note: "MEK chip" has a red layer that is a different material to those other chips so the MEK test cannot confirm commercial pure Al @ 99% pure in the sample. (See moderated thread for further details).

Quote:
The relative quantities of aluminum, iron, and oxygen match those of the most common thermite formulation: Fe2O3 + 2 Al .
No they don't! Even the paper shows that this is not the case. Stoichiometry anyone? FFS!

Quote:
The flat plates are mostly aluminum. Because the other elements are present in much smaller quantities, most of the aluminum must be in its (unstable) elemental form, unbound to oxygen and ready to react.
Rubbish! Look at the graph!




Show me where Al dominates! We see Si, O and C all of which have peaks equal or above the Al. (And yes I'm aware that peak ratios aren't everything but in this case it's taking the <rule 10>. This is either complete and utter unfamiliarity with SEM and EDS or a bare faced lie. FFS we can see with our own eyes that this is incorrect. Do people now understand why this severely <rule 10>'s me off? It's the bold faced lies that masquerade as some sort of scientific truth in the hope it traps the unaware. This isn't truth it's bollocks.

They aren't even trying to quote from the MEK sample, which has a red layer that is of a different composition to that of samples a,b,c,d. They are telling a lie that even someone without knowledge of chemistry or physics can tell simply by looking at the data they refer to - namely Fig 11a (as above).

Quote:
The faceted grains are mostly iron and oxygen in the ratio of the Fe2O3 form of iron oxide, a compound that readily gives up its oxygen to aluminum once the reaction is started.
True - the "faceted grains" are indeed rhomboidal or rhombohedral in nature and comprise of mostly Fe and O therefore one can safely say that they are Fe2O3, which is well known for this crystal structure.

Quote:
Thus, the two types of nano-particles in the red layer contain the two ingredients of thermite: pure aluminum and iron oxide. Furthermore, the red-layer matrix in which the particles are embedded in a highly uniform manner is mostly silicon and oxygen -- similar in composition to known variants of nano-thermite optimized for high explosive pressure.
No they don't contain pure aluminium. The paper expressly shows that in Figs 5,7,8,9,10, 11 and 15. The platelets observed contain Si, O and C in significant quantities that cannot be over looked - there is no pure Al in these platelets.

Quote:
Although these elements -- aluminum, iron, oxygen, and silicon -- were all abundant in building materials used in the Twin Towers, it is not possible that such materials milled themselves into fine powder and assembled themselves into a chemically optimized aluminothermic composite as a by-product of the destruction of the Twin Towers.
Correct. One thing is missing. The samples do not show a chemically optimized aluminothermic composite - unless you mean paint attached to rust.

I just couldn't read anymore - I've got to go to work in the morning and actually deal with the real world and real engineering problems.

"working knowledge of Chemistry and Physics" - and mathematics (and I define working as passed to a level an 18 year old is expected) is enough to be able to start your journey on a metallurgy/materials engineering degree course, however, it doesn't allow you to be knowledgeable before you take the course.

You may have an understanding of flight and you may have flown a light aeroplane for a good few hours, but that does not make you qualified to comment on what the co-pilot is doing when he presses switches in a 747. Even worse is someone telling the co-pilot that he's doing it all wrong when that person has zero experience.

I've no idea who Jim Hoffman is, but he hasn't had any experience in materials analysis or metallurgy/materials engineering. He gets the majority of things wrong - and this is supposed to be for anyone to understand? Well I guess if you tell people that 2+2 = 76.4 then those who don't know any better will think it's true.

It's this level of BS that really annoys me as I suspect most sane readers can tell. The truth movement is made up of gullible unknowledgable fools who fall for this type of "crap analysis". Thank christ they are spending their time with this nonsense rather than being let loose in the real world designing things that millions of people rely upon daily.

Edit: And why the <rule 10> do they not bother to read what an article says and then compare it to the paper. I don't expect a truther has actually read the paper twice in it's entirety let alone understand what it is saying. Goodnight.

Last edited by Sunstealer; 20th April 2009 at 06:16 PM.
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Old 20th April 2009, 06:19 PM   #30
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so the truthers found red paint and rust??

wowowowowwowowo!!!!

nice job guys!!

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Old 20th April 2009, 06:21 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
This thread is only about the three scientific points made by Jim Hoffman in his article, or related points about the science of the thermite paper.

It is NOT about:

* theories about chain-of-custody
hoffmans paper is based on the assumption that the samples are uncontaminated WTC dust, therefore chain of custody is a primary point of discussion for this
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Old 20th April 2009, 06:37 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Dog Town View Post
So why did you post this in a conspiracy sub-forum, exactly? 911 at that...



If it's all sciency, and stuff, post in the SCIENCE forum!
This in the only sub-forum that gets much traffic here, the JREFers are into conspiracies, you know.
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Old 20th April 2009, 06:41 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by boloboffin View Post
This is the Jim Hoffman that wrote this?



That Jim Hoffman?
The thermite has been found, the real question is to figure out how it got in there.

You forgot that Hoffman says this is hypothetical, the title was:

"A Hypothetical Blasting Scenario"

If you can prove Hoffman's theory wrong, then please PM me. Hoffman is not making a claim that his theory is proven por even probable, only that it is possible and plausible.

Otherwise, please stay on topic.
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Old 20th April 2009, 06:43 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by A W Smith View Post
Holy Ganole! Hoffmans a moron!

20 inch? What the hell module is that? its 24X24 or 24X48, Do over! get your module corrected!

If you can find any crew that can change 120 ceiling tiles per man hour. You can do my ceilings for me.


http://craftsman-book.com/products/i...9&detail=intro



Hoffman! Your a MORON!
this is a different paper, not the topic of this thread.

Mods - please remove.
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Old 20th April 2009, 06:46 PM   #36
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actually its provided to prove that Hoffman, the author of your paper, has some issues with REALITY and anythng he writes, needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

the article as posted by AW SMITH is illustrating other works by Hoffman that are equally questionable, and shows that he has no idea of what he is talking about.


when arey ou going to address the point that the dust samples were CONTAMINATED

this is the fourth thread on this subject and YOU"VE avoided answering this question in all four threads.
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Old 20th April 2009, 06:46 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
The thermite has been found, the real question is to figure out how it got in there.
there are 2 problems with this statement

1: it has not been proven to be thermite, by conducting the experiment in a oxygen-rich environment harrit et al cannot rule out normal combustion for the energy release (in fact given that they found enthalpies much higher than thermite, and indeed any known chemical reaction means there must have been unmetered oxygen being reacted)

2: it has never been determined if the dust is an uncontaminated sample from the WTC
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Old 20th April 2009, 06:47 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
The thermite has been found, the real question is to figure out how it got in there. .
saying that again and again..doesn't make it so.
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Old 20th April 2009, 06:49 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
This in the only sub-forum that gets much traffic here, the JREFers are into conspiracies, you know.
WoW...wrong again! You should look around a little. "JREF" is much more than conspiracy bat-crap.

So I'll ask again:
If you don't want conspiracy to be talked about, why post it here?
You see...you make no sense!
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Old 20th April 2009, 06:51 PM   #40
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Galileo, HOW was the nano thermite used in the WTC?

Also, prove that it makes a loud noise (like an explosion) when ignited.
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