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Old 30th April 2009, 06:32 PM   #1
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Questions about nano-thermite

1) What is nano-thermite?

2) How does nano-thermite differ from ordinary thermite?

3) How is nano-thermite made?

4) Can I see some pictures of nano-thermite?
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Old 30th April 2009, 07:16 PM   #2
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I thought this was a helpful description. Guess where I got it from.

Quote:
The 221st National Meeting of the American
Chemical Society held during April 2001 in San
Diego featured a symposium on Defense Applications
of Nanomaterials. One of the 4 sessions
was titled nanoenergetics…. This session provided
a good representation of the breadth of
work ongoing in this field, which is roughly 10
years old.… At this point in time, all of the
military services and some DOE and academic
laboratories have active R&D programs aimed
at exploiting the unique properties of nanomaterials
that have potential to be used in
energetic formulations for advanced explosives….
nanoenergetics hold promise as useful
ingredients for the thermobaric (TBX)
and TBX-like weapons, particularly due to
their high degree of tailorability with regards to
energy release and impulse management [20].
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Old 30th April 2009, 07:22 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
I thought this was a helpful description. Guess where I got it from.
From Jones' comic book.

If you read the citation that "[20]" refers to, you will find that the nano-thermite was used for ignitors, not as that bulk that goes "boom" and blows stuff up.
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Old 30th April 2009, 07:26 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
I thought this was a helpful description. Guess where I got it from.
A paper that doesn't mention thermite even once?
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Old 30th April 2009, 07:37 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
A paper that doesn't mention thermite even once?
lol
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Old 1st May 2009, 08:49 AM   #6
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Speaking of the American Chemical Society...

Quote:
The overarching theme for the Spring 2009 national meeting in Salt Lake City was nanoscience and nanotechnology. As theme organizer, Professor Paul Weiss, Editor-in-Chief of ACS NANO, developed the theme “Nanoscience: Challenges for the Future” and organized the Keynote Address, Plenary Session, as well as many exceptional nano-specific symposia integrated with the technical program sponsored by the ACS Divisions.
Why didn't they ask Dr. Jones to present?
Why didn't Dr. Jones submit his paper to their journal, Nano, which is about nanotechnology?
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Old 1st May 2009, 09:18 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
I thought this was a helpful description. Guess where I got it from.
does anyone argue thermobaric weapons were used on 9/11?

well, other than the planes becoming impromptu fuel-air bombs
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Old 1st May 2009, 09:24 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
From Jones' comic book.

If you read the citation that "[20]" refers to, you will find that the nano-thermite was used for ignitors, not as that bulk that goes "boom" and blows stuff up.
You're right it doesn't go boom because "nanoenergetics hold promise as useful ingredients for the thermobaric (TBX) and TBX-like weapons, particularly due to their high degree of tailorability with regards to
energy release and impulse management."
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Old 1st May 2009, 09:34 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe View Post
does anyone argue thermobaric weapons were used on 9/11?

well, other than the planes becoming impromptu fuel-air bombs
not sure that is correct - unless the fuel was fully or mostly mixed with sufficient air prior to ignition it was not acting as an FAB with big overpressure followed rapidly with big underpressure (crushes your innards then pulls them out), just as spreading fuel fire
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Old 1st May 2009, 10:09 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
You're right it doesn't go boom because "nanoenergetics hold promise as useful ingredients for the thermobaric (TBX) and TBX-like weapons, particularly due to their high degree of tailorability with regards to
energy release and impulse management."
That's what I said, the nanothermite is an ingrediant; the detonator.

TBX (thermobaric ) weapons work on big structures via a few PSI overpressure. In WTC, it would blow out all the windows and kill everyone and leave the frame intact.

TBX bombs go BOOM just like all explosives.

Nobody heard a TBX explosion at WTC on 9/11.

You lose again.
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Old 1st May 2009, 10:11 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe View Post
does anyone argue thermobaric weapons were used on 9/11?

well, other than the planes becoming impromptu fuel-air bombs
A few people that read the footnotes in Jones' paper do but they are clueless about the meaning of the words they quote.
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Old 1st May 2009, 10:35 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by 1337m4n View Post
1) What is nano-thermite?

2) How does nano-thermite differ from ordinary thermite?

3) How is nano-thermite made?

4) Can I see some pictures of nano-thermite?


http://www.answers.com/topic/super-thermites
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Old 1st May 2009, 12:31 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Hmmm...


Quote:
As the mass transport mechanisms that slow down the burning rates of traditional thermites are not so important at these scales, the reactions become kinetically controlled and much faster.
Interesting. Would a greater reaction speed make it easier to use as a demolition device?
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Old 1st May 2009, 12:39 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by 1337m4n View Post
Hmmm...




Interesting. Would a greater reaction speed make it easier to use as a demolition device?
well im sure it would make it harder to keep going for 14 weeks
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Old 1st May 2009, 07:38 PM   #15
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I've realized that the particle in Jones' paper is not very nano.

http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/co...001/7TOCPJ.SGM

The best magnified pictures (Fig. 8-10) they have shows particles in size of sub-microns (hundereds of nanometers).

Pictures in other articles about "nano-explosives" show much smaller particles.

https://www.llnl.gov/str/RSimpson.html
https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/318263.pdf
http://www.enme.umd.edu/~mrz/pdf_papers/2004_CM_FeO.pdf

Some of them are only 30 nm in diameter.
To me, the particles Jones found seem too large.
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Old 1st May 2009, 07:42 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by NagP View Post
I've realized that the particle in Jones' paper is not very nano...
As have others, try this thread.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=140017
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Old 1st May 2009, 11:11 PM   #17
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Hold up, though. If I'm not mistaken, Jones doesn't claim to have found ACTUAL thermite, he merely claims to have found evidence that a thermite reaction occurred. How does the "signature", if you will, of super-thermites differ from that of standard thermites?

Quote:
The main differences seem to be with the reactants and reaction, not with the products. Aren't the products going to be still basically the same?



I admit I only got a C in chemistry (I was in it more for watching things explode than for actually learning), so I apologize if anything I just said is horribly stupid.
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Old 1st May 2009, 11:41 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Dog Town View Post

Thanks.

I will go through that thread.
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Old 2nd May 2009, 05:34 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by 1337m4n View Post
Hmmm...



Originally Posted by tsig View Post
http://www.answers.com/topic/super-thermites
Hmmm...


Quote:
As the mass transport mechanisms that slow down the burning rates of traditional thermites are not so important at these scales, the reactions become kinetically controlled and much faster.
Interesting. Would a greater reaction speed make it easier to use as a demolition device?
Interesting. Would a greater reaction speed make it easier to use as a demolition device?
Yes, It also makes it go BOOM.

Nobody heard BOOM on 9/11.
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Old 2nd May 2009, 08:54 PM   #20
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There is no such thing as nano super-duper uber thermite, err thermate. It does not exist.
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Old 2nd May 2009, 09:59 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Galileo View Post
There is no such thing as nano super-duper uber thermite, err thermate. It does not exist.
Don't tell Dr.Jones!
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Old 3rd May 2009, 09:29 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by NagP View Post
I've realized that the particle in Jones' paper is not very nano.

http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/co...001/7TOCPJ.SGM

The best magnified pictures (Fig. 8-10) they have shows particles in size of sub-microns (hundereds of nanometers).

Pictures in other articles about "nano-explosives" show much smaller particles.

https://www.llnl.gov/str/RSimpson.html
https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/318263.pdf
http://www.enme.umd.edu/~mrz/pdf_papers/2004_CM_FeO.pdf

Some of them are only 30 nm in diameter.
To me, the particles Jones found seem too large.
This is what is so hilarious about the truthers and Jones' samples and the Harrit et al paper. When you look into the sol gel process and it's use in producing nano-sized particles for use in a thermite reaction (of what ever flavour) you find that when comparing the material in the papers with the Harrit paper that the materials are so far apart in their size, morphology and chemistry that only an idiot can't see the difference. What's even more amusing is that various papers on these nano materials get heats of reaction below the theoretical maximum for the classic thermite reaction (namely Fe2O3 + 2Al) at around 3.5 kJ mol-1 and Jones gets above the theoretical maximum for the same reaction and then declares it must therefore be super-thermite! Also note that a reduction in particle size corresponds with a reduction of ignition temperature yet Jones' chips ignite at an even lower temperature yet the particle size of the material in the chips is at least 10 and 40 times larger for the Fe2O3 and Aluminosilicate respectively!

So how does that work? Higher than theoretical maximum output with a lower ignition temperature, but with a far larger particle size than the best that can be produced by current processes under laboratory conditions. Mmmmn. Something isn't right is it. Perhaps the combustion was due to the Carbon matrix in the samples and not a thermite reaction as claimed. No wonder the poor editor resigned when crap like this ended up being published under her remit.

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Old 3rd May 2009, 10:24 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Dog Town View Post
Don't tell Dr.Jones!
But there is nano thermite, super thermite, and thermate.
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Old 3rd May 2009, 10:49 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
This is what is so hilarious about the truthers and Jones' samples and the Harrit et al paper. When you look into the sol gel process and it's use in producing nano-sized particles for use in a thermite reaction (of what ever flavour) you find that when comparing the material in the papers with the Harrit paper that the materials are so far apart in their size, morphology and chemistry that only an idiot can't see the difference. What's even more amusing is that various papers on these nano materials get heats of reaction below the theoretical maximum for the classic thermite reaction (namely Fe2O3 + 2Al) at around 3.5 kJ mol-1 and Jones gets above the theoretical maximum for the same reaction and then declares it must therefore be super-thermite! Also note that a reduction in particle size corresponds with a reduction of ignition temperature yet Jones' chips ignite at an even lower temperature yet the particle size of the material in the chips is at least 10 and 40 times larger for the Fe2O3 and Aluminosilicate respectively!

So how does that work? Higher than theoretical maximum output with a lower ignition temperature, but with a far larger particle size than the best that can be produced by current processes under laboratory conditions. Mmmmn. Something isn't right is it. Perhaps the combustion was due to the Carbon matrix in the samples and not a thermite reaction as claimed. No wonder the poor editor resigned when crap like this ended up being published under her remit.
Poor 911Truth followers can't see these problems with the paper they just post and never comprehend what they are reading. Jones' paper is self debunking.
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Old 3rd May 2009, 11:13 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
What's even more amusing is that various papers on these nano materials get heats of reaction below the theoretical maximum for the classic thermite reaction (namely Fe2O3 + 2Al) at around 3.5 kJ mol-1 and Jones gets above the theoretical maximum for the same reaction and then declares it must therefore be super-thermite!
Exactly. In the paper by Tillotson et al., they specifically remark how their sol-gel thermite is substantially lower power:

Originally Posted by Tillotson et al., Part 4
Integration of the exothermic peak in Fig. 3 resulted in a heat of reaction value of 1.5 kJ/g. This is significantly lower than the theoretical value of 3.9 kJ/g. One potential explanation involves the aluminum fuel itself. We know from HRTEM analysis that the UFG Al used in this sample has an oxide coating of ~5 nm. With 30 nm diameter Al this oxide coating represents a large amount of the mass of the sample. In fact, a simple calculation, based on the volume of the oxide coating, indicates that the UFG aluminum used is actually 70% Al2O3 weight.
... so, again, why was this miracle stuff used? Even ordinary thermite would be superior in every way: Higher energy density, higher resistance to preignition, lower chance of detection after the fact, more easily manufactured, cheaper, and it actually existed prior to 2001.

Dr. Jones is a fraud of the highest order. I would dearly like to know if he realizes this, and is simply stringing along the rubes, or if he's just plain nuts.
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Old 3rd May 2009, 08:50 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
This is what is so hilarious about the truthers and Jones' samples and the Harrit et al paper. When you look into the sol gel process and it's use in producing nano-sized particles for use in a thermite reaction (of what ever flavour) you find that when comparing the material in the papers with the Harrit paper that the materials are so far apart in their size, morphology and chemistry that only an idiot can't see the difference. What's even more amusing is that various papers on these nano materials get heats of reaction below the theoretical maximum for the classic thermite reaction (namely Fe2O3 + 2Al) at around 3.5 kJ mol-1 and Jones gets above the theoretical maximum for the same reaction and then declares it must therefore be super-thermite!
Isn't it true that the Al + O2 reaction creates about twice as much heat, per mole of Al, as the thermite reaction? Since Harrit's DSC was done in air, shouldn't this force the actual (not just the theoretical) energy density observed to be higher than the measured energy density in vaccuum, or inert gas?

While the Harrit DSC tests may be ambiguous, I don't think they're inconsistent with thermite. Why on earth do you?

Quote:
Also note that a reduction in particle size corresponds with a reduction of ignition temperature yet Jones' chips ignite at an even lower temperature yet the particle size of the material in the chips is at least 10 and 40 times larger for the Fe2O3 and Aluminosilicate respectively!
I'm having a hard time taking this "criticism" seriously. First of all, I measured 'one' of the platelets, and came up with 68 nm. Turns out, it's two platelets (maybe more, away from the edge) stuck together, which can be seen from this photo (left side), if you look closely at the dolphin-shaped, lighter platelet towards the middle.





So, 34 nm is more like it - the Harrit paper says 40 nm.

If an oxygen molecule is going to react with Al inside a platelet, do you really think it needs to burrow in from the edge? Do not the most simple, geometrical considerations, plus science lessons about the relationship between surface area and volume that we learned in 7th grade, suggest to you that the average distance between oxygen outside a platelet, and Al inside, is going to be determined primarily by the thickness of a platelet, rather than it's area?

If you have a piece of chopped meat that you want to cook quickly, would you shape it into a cube, or into a hamburger (macro-platelet ) ? If you stir fry a carrot, won't it cook faster if you slice it thin (across, I mean)?

These aren't the best analogies, because they have to do mostly with heat transfer, rather than a chemical reaction across a boundary (let's assume we're not stir-frying in oil - yuck; also, heat diffusion certainly also is a key factor in how a thermite reaction proceeds). In terms of chemical reactions, I expect that a wood saw will rust, if left out in the rain, much more quickly than an equivalent mass of the same steel, formed into a ball. That's basically because the amount of surface area is so much greater in the saw ('platelet') form.
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Old 3rd May 2009, 09:09 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
Exactly. In the paper by Tillotson et al., they specifically remark how their sol-gel thermite is substantially lower power:
The photos and diagrams I've seen of sol gels don't suggest to me that the Harrit red layer material is one. Maybe, though, the particles that make up the gel matrix are just not visible in the photos I've seen???

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tillotson et al., Part 4
Integration of the exothermic peak in Fig. 3 resulted in a heat of reaction value of 1.5 kJ/g. This is significantly lower than the theoretical value of 3.9 kJ/g. One potential explanation involves the aluminum fuel itself. We know from HRTEM analysis that the UFG Al used in this sample has an oxide coating of ~5 nm. With 30 nm diameter Al this oxide coating represents a large amount of the mass of the sample. In fact, a simple calculation, based on the volume of the oxide coating, indicates that the UFG aluminum used is actually 70% Al2O3 weight.
... so, again, why was this miracle stuff used? Even ordinary thermite would be superior in every way: Higher energy density, higher resistance to preignition, lower chance of detection after the fact, more easily manufactured, cheaper, and it actually existed prior to 2001.
I calculate 58% Al2O3 by volume. OTOH, 40 nm platelets which have oxide layers 5 nm thick, and a silicon platelet core (say it's also 5 nm thick), means that Al particles are 25/40 ~ 62.5% by volume, instead of 42% by volume. Also, as I have pointed out elsewhere, Al2O3 yield is in the MPa range, while spherical Al2O3 particles are typically defect free, which make them tough to crack (yields in the GPa range). I have speculated that this is what would make a platelet nanothermite have a lower ignition temperature than spherical nanopowder 'equivalents'.

That might be just the thing if you want to turn jet fuel into a fireball in 1/3 second..... This seems to me to be the most plausible use of a nano-thermite. I guess the question then is, why not use Magnesium, or other standard igniters used with flame-throwers? Not being a chemist, I have little idea, but I'll speculate that Mg would be easier to detect, at least visually. Doesn't Mg make a brilliant flame, when it burns?
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Old 3rd May 2009, 09:22 PM   #28
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If you still can't figure out why Dr. Jones's own data shows the stuff isn't thermite, then you really need to seek help from a professional. We've made it about as clear as we can.

The advantages of the nanothermite -- the real nanothermite made by Tillotson and his team -- are that it is more uniform and predictable, has a relatively fast reaction time, and has a substantially LOWER ignition temperature than normal thermite, yet high relative to some other compounds including explosives. However, it has an extremely low energy density, about 1/30th that of ordinary gasoline, and 1/3 that of TNT.

What you would want in the WTC case is something with inordinately high energy density, an extremely high thermal stability, and a very low reaction rate. Real nanothermite does not fit this bill at all.

What Dr. Jones has found is a substance that burns readily in air, ignited at ordinary fire temperatures, and has a wildly varying energy content albeit in no way competitive with normal combustibles like wood or paper, let alone jet fuel or gasoline. This is not a match to nanothermite, nor does it have properties advantageous or even faintly usable for any WTC demolition scenario.

It is, however, utterly consistent with organics containing sphere-like and plate-like structures of aluminum and iron, and their oxides, at decidedly larger-than-nano sizes. Like paint. Paint burns. Paint burns in air with a similar ignition temperature and a comparable energy density, and not being designed to burn would burn somewhat unpredictably depending on how it was dried and its substrate. Perfect bloody match to what Dr. Jones found.

I don't see what your problem is.
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Old 3rd May 2009, 10:03 PM   #29
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Looks one heck of a lot like Dr. Jones' actual findings not reflecting the known substances left from the usage of thermite - and therefore inventing (or misappropriating) a technology to prop up the possibility of his theory.
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Old 3rd May 2009, 10:11 PM   #30
metamars
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
If you still can't figure out why Dr. Jones's own data shows the stuff isn't thermite, then you really need to seek help from a professional. We've made it about as clear as we can.

The advantages of the nanothermite -- the real nanothermite made by Tillotson and his team -- are that it is more uniform and predictable, has a relatively fast reaction time, and has a substantially LOWER ignition temperature than normal thermite, yet high relative to some other compounds including explosives. However, it has an extremely low energy density, about 1/30th that of ordinary gasoline, and 1/3 that of TNT.

What you would want in the WTC case is something with inordinately high energy density, an extremely high thermal stability, and a very low reaction rate. Real nanothermite does not fit this bill at all.

What Dr. Jones has found is a substance that burns readily in air, ignited at ordinary fire temperatures, and has a wildly varying energy content albeit in no way competitive with normal combustibles like wood or paper, let alone jet fuel or gasoline. This is not a match to nanothermite, nor does it have properties advantageous or even faintly usable for any WTC demolition scenario.
Perhaps because you're focussing on the least plausible one. While the most plausible scenario (I believe) for the use of nanothermite on 911, period, is as an incendiary for the jet fuel, the next most plausible 911 nanothermite scenario is what I'll call a slow CD one. What I mean by a "slow CD" is basically wrapping a thin layer around columns (assuming it has foil-like properties; otherwise, you'd have to paint it on), wrapping that with fire insulation, and using the added heat plus pre-existing loads to cause the columns to fail. Certainly, you of all people will have no problem believing that just getting the columns to fail on one floor will create an unstoppable collapse. (Sorry, Richard Gage).

There's no law saying that you can only wrap (or paint) a 100 micron thick layer of nanofoil around a column. If an office fire causes a particular columns nanothermite wrapper to ignite, so what? That's probably a good thing, in the slow CD scenario. You do not need precision timing for the slow CD scenario. You do need your nanofoil to reliably ignite.

The possible problems with the slow CD scenario are
1) will the nanofoil blow away the fireproofing?
2) will the fireproofing melt off?

If either 1) or 2) occur, the heat will not be trapped next to the column for any length of time, and the slow CD will fail.

I noticed that you forgot to mention that the Harrit material produced metallic spheres. So far, nobody has suggested a brand of paint that definitely makes micropheres when they're ignited.

A regular thermite would be hard to apply to columns in a thin layer, and even if you solve that problem, how would you confidently not just ignite it, but make sure that it spread? In a 4 ml thick layer (e.g.), I don't think you could reliably ignite it at one end of column, and have it go to another end.

A 'normal' nano-thermite, even if it doesn't explode off columns before it can weaken them, is going to burn at a higher temperature (well, if I can infer correctly from their DSC behavior). If it burns 200 C higher, and the fireproofing melts off as a result, again the columns will not be sufficiently weakened to fail. Another advantage of a lower temperature is that it won't melt you column surface. (No, I'm not sure of the details, but the desirability of not having mottled metallic columns is self-evident.

Quote:
It is, however, utterly consistent with organics containing sphere-like and plate-like structures of aluminum and iron, and their oxides, at decidedly larger-than-nano sizes. Like paint. Paint burns. Paint burns in air with a similar ignition temperature and a comparable energy density, and not being designed to burn would burn somewhat unpredictably depending on how it was dried and its substrate. Perfect bloody match to what Dr. Jones found.

I don't see what your problem is.
Do let us know when you, or anybody else, find a paint that they can ignite, after it's dried, that creates microspheres. Also, I don't want to look it up now, but one of the French Henry's had remarked on the narrowness of the exotherm (i.e., power profile). While not supporting the notion of Harrit's red chip material as a slow CD agent, as a fireball incendiary, having that property may be ideal.
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Old 3rd May 2009, 10:18 PM   #31
R.Mackey
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Originally Posted by metamars View Post
Perhaps because you're focussing on the least plausible one. While the most plausible scenario (I believe) for the use of nanothermite on 911, period, is as an incendiary for the jet fuel, the next most plausible 911 nanothermite scenario is what I'll call a slow CD one.
Good grief, man, an ignition system for the jet fuel??

You think the jet fuel isn't going to get ignited on impact? You think that, oh, just maybe 150 tons of shredding aircraft plowing through a structure isn't going to create any heat?

You think somebody put igniters -- open to the air -- that were coordinated not just with the impact floor, but also with the correct time of impact, to within +/- 1/2 second?

That's the most plausible scenario you can imagine?

Originally Posted by metamars View Post
Do let us know when you, or anybody else, find a paint that they can ignite, after it's dried, that creates microspheres.
What makes you think there weren't microspheres to begin with? Ever put iron oxide (primer) paint under the microscope? Didn't think so. And there are other possibilities besides.

Originally Posted by metamars View Post
Also, I don't want to look it up now, but one of the French Henry's had remarked on the narrowness of the exotherm (i.e., power profile). While not supporting the notion of Harrit's red chip material as a slow CD agent, as a fireball incendiary, having that property may be ideal.
The "narrowness," huh. As in, the organic paint binder all ignites at more or less the same temperature. Well, golly, what a surprise.

What you're doing is called the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy, the most extreme example of it I've ever seen. There is absolutely no reason to believe this stuff is thermite, not of any stripe, nor is there any reason to believe it's in any way malicious. If we can't get past that, there's no point to concocting scenarios of spiraling insanity regarding how it might have been used.
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Old 3rd May 2009, 10:31 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by metamars View Post
... (assuming it has foil-like properties; otherwise, you'd have to paint it on), wrapping that with fire insulation, ...
Why make up idiotic ideas about 911? Is your purpose to make moronic ideas up about 911?

Jet fuel burns in aircraft impacts when the pilot leaves the engines running. The blades in the engine are over 800 degrees C! Jet fuel auto ignites; auto ignites at 450 degree F. The other bad news for 911 the KE of impacts was so great much of the jet fuel was instantly (0.25 second) dispersed over the entire area of the WTC and ignited by jet engine parts at temperatures greater than 600 degree C. The engine exhaust gas temperature was 800 C at the Pentagon before impact, and the WTC aircraft were similar.

your post is so dumb I am sure other people will comment on your delusions and if you need me to make a detailed study please ask


jet fuel in a crash; please research before posting pure junk
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I AGREE

This was a low speed crash, the pilot had stalled the Buff. The copilot seat is just starting up the rail, he had initiated ejection. As you see a fireball; this is common in crashes like a stall with engines running or high speed impacts like 911 with engines running so your ideas are pure junk on the jet fuel. Do you need a word from a trained aircraft accident investigator? You just got it.

Pilots are trained to turn off the JET engines before impact in a crash to abate the fires! Yes, the pilot must recognize the crash coming to be successful. The terrorist hitting building on 911 had the engines to the firewall, at 100 percent! Fire is guaranteed. Sorry, 911Truth lost this one big time!

When a jet engine impacts the building the engines liberate great quantities of hot turbine blades igniting the fuel and there are raging fires in the core of the engines!


Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
..., there's no point to concocting scenarios of spiraling insanity regarding how it might have been used.
true

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Old 4th May 2009, 05:54 AM   #33
metamars
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
Good grief, man, an ignition system for the jet fuel??

You think the jet fuel isn't going to get ignited on impact? You think that, oh, just maybe 150 tons of shredding aircraft plowing through a structure isn't going to create any heat?
Sure I do, just like I 'think' Allied incendiary bombs, even if they hadn't added thermite to them, would have created heat when they came crashing through buildings after falling thousands of feet. And yet, thermite was added to them, anyway. Do yo think that was a wasteful mistake?

Quote:
You think somebody put igniters -- open to the air -- that were coordinated not just with the impact floor, but also with the correct time of impact, to within +/- 1/2 second?

That's the most plausible scenario you can imagine?
I'm not sure why you ask "open to the air". If you apply your nanothermite to a column, then cover up the column with fireproofing, it won't be "open to the air". If you apply it to columns in an impact area, you don't need to time anything. The impact will rupture Al platelets, the thermite reaction kicks off, and, as we all know, nanothermite flames propagate very quickly. (Hopefully, Harrit, et. al, will do an experiment where they bang on it with a hammer, and see if it ignites. In fact, I'll ask them about this. If they can't get one to ignite by hitting it with a hammer, then I would doubt this impact ignition method I'm suggesting.)

IOW, for two of the nanothermite scenarios I have mentioned, the method of application could be the same.

However, even if you strung up porous cloth bags of nanothermite chips, such that they essentially "open to the air", I expect that they'd be stable. You might get a lot of complaints to the security department, however.


Quote:
What makes you think there weren't microspheres to begin with?
If you mean microspheres of the size that Harrit obtained, from chips of the width and size that Harrit was using, then the reason I don't think that there were such microspheres to begin with is the fact that this is a debunking web site, and nobody has posted such pictures. If somebody actually has such evidence, but has been shy to produce it, perhaps reading this post will help them lose their shyness.

Quote:
Ever put iron oxide (primer) paint under the microscope? Didn't think so. And there are other possibilities besides.
No, I haven't. Apparently, if anybody else who frequents this site had looked at iron oxide (primer) paint under the microscope, and found similar spheres, of similar size, they're holding out on us. If they now lose their shyness, recall the brand of paint, create paint chips of that specific brand, burn them to isolate the spheres, and post the photos, we can at least speculate as to whether or not doing a similar DSC on them, as had Harrit, will create a similar DSC plot.

This being JREF, I doubt that anybody will actually attempt that. It's so much easier to bloviate.

In fairness, I'll note that I also doubt that a single 911 Truther will have done any such simple tests on primer paint, either - including the ones proclaiming how wonderful the Harrit paper is, without bothering to take it to their local university physical chemistry department, first, to see what they think about it.

Quote:

The "narrowness," huh. As in, the organic paint binder all ignites at more or less the same temperature. Well, golly, what a surprise.
It'd be even more surprising if your organic paint primer, while burning at more or less the same temperature, managed to create a larger microsphere out of any smaller micropheres. Not if the temperature burning in open air is far less than the melting point of iron.

BTW, at this point I'd like to mention something about the DSC tests which confuses me. Since the exotherm in the DSC occurs well before the melting point of iron (430 C vs. 1538 C), how come there are not additional exotherms at a higher temperature? The DSC plots of Harrit are similar to the Granier DSC plots done with with smaller Al size (in that there are no large exotherms after the peak one, which is well before 1538 C) , so nothing seems particularly inconsistent, there.

The only things that I can think of are that the DSC burnings are particularly inefficient, in some sense. Or else, the temperatures we associate with a DSC spike are not really close to the temperature at the point of the specimen, itself, but rather the temperature of the burning chamber, (or else temperature of the surrounding gas) which of course will be at a lower temperature.

Quote:
What you're doing is called the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy, the most extreme example of it I've ever seen. There is absolutely no reason to believe this stuff is thermite, not of any stripe,
Not if it's a part of one's religious faith that something cannot be thermite - in which case, the fact don't matter.

Quote:
nor is there any reason to believe it's in any way malicious.
I find this to be a curious statement. If it's a highly engineered incendiary that has no business being in the WTC, that can't be good. If it's a paint chip or other coating, then nobody will claim that it's malicious, anyway.

Quote:
If we can't get past that, there's no point to concocting scenarios of spiraling insanity regarding how it might have been used.
Do you realize that this is basically the opposite of what Dr. Greening had written, at one point?

The reason I have talked about scenarios of different plausibility, is primarily because debunkers have focused on the question of how it could be used, trying to infer insights from that about what it is - or rather, is not. Indeed, I was replying to arguments that you, yourself had made, which obviously (as I hope I've made clear) are limited to a scenario which need not have been the only possible one. Even if I'm wrong about the ordering of plausibility in the 3 basic scenarios (i.e., explosive CD less plausible than slow CD, which is less plausible than fireball incendiary), I'm sure if I asked one of my physics profs of years gone by about their opinion re a correct ordering, they could answer me rationally without snark about "spiralling insanity".

How about you? What if you look up one of your old physics professors, and ask them to rank the plausibility of the 3 scenarios of nanothermite in a WTC context that I mentioned? Will they even be able to answer you without snide remarks about "spiralling insanity"?

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Old 4th May 2009, 06:08 AM   #34
metamars
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Originally Posted by metamars View Post
(Hopefully, Harrit, et. al, will do an experiment where they bang on it with a hammer, and see if it ignites. In fact, I'll ask them about this. If they can't get one to ignite by hitting it with a hammer, then I would doubt this impact ignition method I'm suggesting.)
Just sent off an email to Harrit, et. al.:

Quote:
I have speculated that the most plausible 911 nanothermite scenarios are the following, from most plausible, to least plausible:

1) incendiary, to make jet fuel turn into a fireball in about 1/3 second
2) slow CD, wherein a thin layer is applied to heat the columns, causing them to fail under their pre-existing loads
3) explosive CD

If 1) is, indeed, plausible, then I would further expect that one possible way to ignite a nanothermite igniter, itself, is simple impact. That certainly solves any timing problems. :-) But, in this case, I would also expect a chip to also ignite under action of a hammer blow.

Hence, my question: Are the red/gray chips stable to hammer blows, or will they ignite?
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Old 4th May 2009, 08:22 AM   #35
R.Mackey
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Originally Posted by metamars View Post
Sure I do, just like I 'think' Allied incendiary bombs, even if they hadn't added thermite to them, would have created heat when they came crashing through buildings after falling thousands of feet. And yet, thermite was added to them, anyway. Do yo think that was a wasteful mistake?
Wow. I can't even figure out what you're trying to argue here.

Jet plane crashes do not require an additional incendiary to ignite the jet fuel. Simple statement of fact. Deal with it.

Originally Posted by metamars View Post
I'm not sure why you ask "open to the air". If you apply your nanothermite to a column, then cover up the column with fireproofing, it won't be "open to the air". [...] In fact, I'll ask them about this. If they can't get one to ignite by hitting it with a hammer, then I would doubt this impact ignition method I'm suggesting.)
If your igniter is screened by fireproofing or whatever, how is it supposed to ignite the jet fuel?

I see no reason to even suspect that Dr. Jones's paint chips could be ignited by a hammer blow. I have no idea where you pulled that from. And for the record, the real nanothermite is highly shock insensitive as well -- it's a feature.

Originally Posted by metamars View Post
If you mean microspheres of the size that Harrit obtained, from chips of the width and size that Harrit was using, then the reason I don't think that there were such microspheres to begin with is the fact that this is a debunking web site, and nobody has posted such pictures.
Shifting burden of proof and argument to ignorance. It's not my job to exhaust sources of microspheres for you. I think they're present as a pigment in the paint. You haven't even acknowledged that as a possibility.

It doesn't matter. The microspheres are a problem for you, no matter how you look at it. Either (a) this substance (actually paint) already contains the microspheres, in which case finding them later is no surprise; or (b) the substance by itself, and at low temperatures creates microspheres, in which case finding them in the dust afterwards is unremarkable.

You seem to have forgotten your own argument, once again. The argument is that the microspheres must come from structural steel, and that supposedly indicates extreme temperatures. But, what this shows is that if you burn this stuff all by itself, at a low temperature, you get microspheres in the residue without the steel ever being involved. Either way, it shows microspheres exist without any steel melting whatsoever, so it disproves the Truther axiom that microspheres == steel heating.

Originally Posted by metamars View Post
No, I haven't. Apparently, if anybody else who frequents this site had looked at iron oxide (primer) paint under the microscope, and found similar spheres, of similar size, they're holding out on us. If they now lose their shyness, recall the brand of paint, create paint chips of that specific brand, burn them to isolate the spheres, and post the photos, we can at least speculate as to whether or not doing a similar DSC on them, as had Harrit, will create a similar DSC plot.
That "anybody else" is Dr. Jones's team. It's their responsiblity to exclude this hypothesis. The only reason anyone else needs to get involved is because their team is grossly incompetent.

Originally Posted by metamars View Post
This being JREF, I doubt that anybody will actually attempt that. It's so much easier to bloviate.
Well-poisoning. Grow up.

Originally Posted by metamars View Post
In fairness, I'll note that I also doubt that a single 911 Truther will have done any such simple tests on primer paint, either - including the ones proclaiming how wonderful the Harrit paper is, without bothering to take it to their local university physical chemistry department, first, to see what they think about it.
Now you're starting to understand.

Originally Posted by metamars View Post
t'd be even more surprising if your organic paint primer, while burning at more or less the same temperature, managed to create a larger microsphere out of any smaller micropheres. Not if the temperature burning in open air is far less than the melting point of iron.
That would surprise me as well, but there's no requirement for this to happen, not yet. It also strikes me as possible if unlikely. Surface chemistry is a tricky thing.

Originally Posted by metamars View Post
BTW, at this point I'd like to mention something about the DSC tests which confuses me. Since the exotherm in the DSC occurs well before the melting point of iron (430 C vs. 1538 C), how come there are not additional exotherms at a higher temperature?
Makes no sense. You either misunderstand thermite or you misunderstand DSC plots, or both. The DSC describes activation temperatures and net calorimetry. These show that whatever reaction is taking place occurs at 430oC (in air, which is not particularly useful). They do not specify what temperature is produced. That is a function of the total heat produced, and the specific heat of the environment.

If you have a small enough quantity of real thermite, and you react it, you won't get molten iron there either. The powders will just get hot. Similarly, if you react a large quantity of thermite in a confined and well insulated space, it can exceed molten steel temperatures. There is a maximum temperature it can reach, when basically all of the heat goes into heating its own constituents, but there is no minimum temperature unless it stays so cold that the reaction stops.

Originally Posted by metamars View Post
Not if it's a part of one's religious faith that something cannot be thermite - in which case, the fact don't matter.
While Dr. Jones's sample does not produce molten iron, it does result in molten irony.

Originally Posted by metamars View Post
I find this to be a curious statement. If it's a highly engineered incendiary that has no business being in the WTC, that can't be good. If it's a paint chip or other coating, then nobody will claim that it's malicious, anyway.
Are you suggesting paint cannot be "highly engineered?" Lots of money in paint. And it's flammable.

Originally Posted by metamars View Post
Do you realize that this is basically the opposite of what Dr. Greening had written, at one point?
"At one point?" You mean he found new information, and came to a new conclusion? You might want to try it sometime.

Originally Posted by metamars View Post
The reason I have talked about scenarios of different plausibility, is primarily because debunkers have focused on the question of how it could be used, trying to infer insights from that about what it is - or rather, is not.
Trying to propose a hypothesis is good practice. You are a full step ahead of the other Truthers in this respect. I only beat you up because the scenarios you've come up with are totally absurd. It amazes me that you can't see this. You are basically disproving Dr. Jones's work all on your own, if you could only hear yourself.

Originally Posted by metamars View Post
How about you? What if you look up one of your old physics professors, and ask them to rank the plausibility of the 3 scenarios of nanothermite in a WTC context that I mentioned? Will they even be able to answer you without snide remarks about "spiralling insanity"?
I doubt they'd be able to stop laughing. Again, your problem, your burden of proof. I only suggest you take it elsewhere because, for whatever reason, you clearly are unable to accept our criticism. Perhaps a change of venue will help you understand. Here, well, you're just going in very small circles.
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Old 4th May 2009, 09:02 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by metamars View Post
Isn't it true that the Al + O2 reaction creates about twice as much heat, per mole of Al, as the thermite reaction? Since Harrit's DSC was done in air, shouldn't this force the actual (not just the theoretical) energy density observed to be higher than the measured energy density in vaccuum, or inert gas?

While the Harrit DSC tests may be ambiguous, I don't think they're inconsistent with thermite. Why on earth do you?

<snip>

If an oxygen molecule is going to react with Al inside a platelet, do you really think it needs to burrow in from the edge? Do not the most simple, geometrical considerations, plus science lessons about the relationship between surface area and volume that we learned in 7th grade, suggest to you that the average distance between oxygen outside a platelet, and Al inside, is going to be determined primarily by the thickness of a platelet, rather than it's area?


Given


which shows that it's extremely unlikely that any free Al is present.

Can you complete (and balance) any of the following equations please?

Al2SiO5 +O2 --> ???
Al2O3 +O2 --> ???
Al2Si2O5(OH)4 + O2 --> ???

Also once you start reducing the thickness or diameter of an Al particle then the ration of aluminium oxide to free aluminium increases. Increase the surface area = increase in % Al2O3 which means a decrease in the Al available for the reaction which intern means less fuel and therefore a decrease in the amount of energy or heat produced. It may well burn very fast but it won't put out sustainable heat for anything.

I'll comment on the shape in the moderated thread when I have time for a longer post.
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Old 4th May 2009, 09:40 AM   #37
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Quote:
I have speculated that the most plausible 911 nanothermite scenarios are the following, from most plausible, to least plausible:

1) incendiary, to make jet fuel turn into a fireball in about 1/3 second
2) slow CD, wherein a thin layer is applied to heat the columns, causing them to fail under their pre-existing loads
3) explosive CD

If 1) is, indeed, plausible, then I would further expect that one possible way to ignite a nanothermite igniter, itself, is simple impact. That certainly solves any timing problems. :-) But, in this case, I would also expect a chip to also ignite under action of a hammer blow.

Hence, my question: Are the red/gray chips stable to hammer blows, or will they ignite?
That is the funniest thing I have read on the internet for some time.

You cannot be serious. I mean honestly read back what you have written slowly. Do you honestly not see how bizarre and mind numbingly crazy this is?

1) What is the point in going to all the trouble when jet fuel will happily ignite all by itself in the crash. Can you not think of a single flaw in what you are saying?

Think about it. The NWO spends huge amounts of time and money and the use of lots and lots of people developing a material, trucking it in, using a secondary workforce to remove the fireproofing then covertly painting an incendiary material on. 1 layer at a time (how many layers is needed) , then putting on the fire proofing across 2 enormous sky scrapers on each floor level so that just at the right moment, with split second; 1/3 second timing, they can ignite the correct amount of incendiary material on the correct floor to make a naturally occurring fireball do, erm what exactly?

2) Wow! A maximum of a 100m layer of incendiary is able to heat a column that could be inches thick, to atleast 600C, causing it to fail. And this all takes place very slowly with a nano material that you have shown burns far faster than thermite due to it's increased surface area.

1in = 2.54cm
2.54cm = 25.4mm
25.4mm = 25400m

25400/100 = 254 (given Jones' claim that the maximum thickness of red layer is 100m - samples a,b,c,d show ~ 15m)

So you think that a material that is 254 times thinner than a 1 inch thick steel section is going to put out enough energy to get that steel to 600C? Have you not seen any of the calculations performed by Greening - you have posted in the very same thread and Greening does the calculation and the post where he does this is addressed to you! http://the911forum.freeforums.org/ac...-15.html#p2605

How about others in this forum? http://forums.randi.or//showpost.php...&postcount=441If you think it's possible then show us the maths - use that post as a guide.

For 15m layer it's 25400/15 = 1693 times thicker.

Office fires easily have far more energy available and regularly reach 600C, so why bother with thermite when all you have to do is set the building on fire and ensure it there is no way of fighting the fire?

3) How can you produce an explosive with an incendiary material? Thermite can never go bang. You have seen the clips and the photos of thermite with very small particles - it doesn't explode.

This is why mainstream science and scientists don't get involved. They would then be subjected to such bizarre questions as you propose and then be castigated when they don't waste their time replying. Who on earth in their right mind would actually bother to reply? They would just print them out and stick em on the undergrad's common room for all and sundry to laugh at. Honestly. Have you lost your mind entirely? I suggest you seek medical help immediately.
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Old 4th May 2009, 11:10 AM   #38
metamars
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Originally Posted by metamars View Post
Just sent off an email to Harrit, et. al.:
Professor Jones has replied:

Quote:
Interesting that the HOW question keeps coming up, when the WHO and WHY questions are clearly more pressing: once we find out WHO made this material and WHO placed in the building, investigation/interrogation can then find out HOW the nanothermite was used. Pressing justice is even more important!

I do not care to be distracted by "HOW" speculations that cannot be answered by any physical testing.

The question about whether the red material can be ignited by impact, OTOH, can be tested and is worthwhile.

Steve
I have asked him to inform me with the results, when the test is done.
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Old 4th May 2009, 11:30 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by metamars View Post
Professor Jones has replied:

Professor Jones has replied:

Quote:
Interesting that the HOW question keeps coming up, when the WHO and WHY questions are clearly more pressing: once we find out WHO made this material and WHO placed in the building, investigation/interrogation can then find out HOW the nanothermite was used. Pressing justice is even more important!
I have asked him to inform me with the results, when the test is done.

Until "HOW" (that involves man-made demolition and fits the eyewitness reports and evidence) is established, "WHO" and "WHY" is a dodge to distract the rubes from the fact that there is no "HOW".
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Old 4th May 2009, 02:39 PM   #40
FineWine
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Originally Posted by metamars View Post
Professor Jones has replied:



I have asked him to inform me with the results, when the test is done.

Jones lets the cat out of the bag. He is not interested in the science at all. He is pushing a political agenda. There is no "who" or "why."
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