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Tags 9/11 conspiracy theories , Niels Harrit

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Old 17th August 2011, 01:30 PM   #641
sheeplesnshills
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
It would be difficult to trust any major lab. especially an American one without special conditions like the whole thing being filmed and some Truth scientists sitting in and verifying every step. Wouldn't you agree ?

Then NIST could provide a sample. So could RJ Lee. They could all be tested simultaneously.

Send them out under a pseudonym saying the dust was found after a fire and could you tell us what it is. Most of the world doesn't know that twoofers exist or cares.
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Old 17th August 2011, 01:46 PM   #642
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
It would be difficult to trust any major lab. especially an American one without special conditions like the whole thing being filmed and some Truth scientists sitting in and verifying every step. Wouldn't you agree ?
I do not agree! The details to all experiments will be recorded. This is the given procedure in every lab (not only in major labs). If you doubt the results of the experiments refer to these protocols. You will find every detail you need there.
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Old 17th August 2011, 01:49 PM   #643
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
It would be difficult to trust any major lab. especially an American one without special conditions like the whole thing being filmed and some Truth scientists sitting in and verifying every step. Wouldn't you agree ?


Wow, that's paranoia for you. Also shows that you don't know how these things work. Just send the damn things anonymously. I'm constantly surprised at the inner workings of the truther mind.
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Old 17th August 2011, 01:54 PM   #644
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Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post


Wow, that's paranoia for you. Also shows that you don't know how these things work. Just send the damn things anonymously. I'm constantly surprised at the inner workings of the truther mind.
If it was done anonymously I doubt that the results would be widely accepted. If the samples were sent to an American or any major lab the tests might be faked due to goverment influence so again the results would not be accepted.

The way that would gain the most acceptance is probably the one I outlined.
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Old 17th August 2011, 01:56 PM   #645
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
If it was done anonymously I doubt that the results would be widely accepted. If the samples were sent to an American or any maojor lab the tests might be faked due to goverment influence so again the results would not be accepted.

The way that would gain the most acceptance is the one I outlined.
"Acceptance" by who?
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Old 17th August 2011, 02:00 PM   #646
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
"Acceptance" by who?
By Whoever...

Is there a problem doing it the way I suggest ?
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Old 17th August 2011, 02:05 PM   #647
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
By Whoever...

Is there a problem doing it the way I suggest ?
Not a problem, just unnecessary. Who decides who the "truth" person is? Who exactly has a problem with what's been done so far?
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Old 17th August 2011, 02:07 PM   #648
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Not a problem, just unnecessary. Who decides who the "truth" person is? Who exactly has a problem with what's been done so far?
Well then let's do it my way. Okay ?
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Old 17th August 2011, 02:12 PM   #649
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Well then let's do it my way. Okay ?
You didn't answer my original question. Who decides who the "truth" person is? Any suggestions?
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Old 17th August 2011, 02:16 PM   #650
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
You didn't answer my original question. Who decides who the "truth" person is? Any suggestions?
More than one Truth scientist. Harrit for his eminent and relevent qualifications, probably Jones for his experience and one other to be decided.
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Old 17th August 2011, 02:19 PM   #651
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
It would be difficult to trust any major lab. especially an American one without special conditions like the whole thing being filmed and some Truth scientists sitting in and verifying every step. Wouldn't you agree ?
Rarely have you written something that I would agree with less. I do not agree at all. Not one bit.
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Old 17th August 2011, 02:20 PM   #652
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
More than one Truth scientist. Harrit for his eminent and relevent qualifications, probably Jones for his experience and one other to be decided.
They are only observers, right?


Sounds good. Get it done.
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Old 17th August 2011, 02:21 PM   #653
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
By Whoever...

Is there a problem doing it the way I suggest ?
Yes. You intodruce bias as a design requirement.
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Old 17th August 2011, 02:25 PM   #654
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Yes. You intodruce bias as a design requirement.
I'd have no problem with them observing. There is however the problem with chain of custody and authenticity of the sample.

Bill:

How do we know they are on the up and up?
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Old 17th August 2011, 02:26 PM   #655
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Yes. You intodruce bias as a design requirement.
The other choice is to trust the labs blindly. Like we did with NIST. It's not going to happen.

Unless it's done something like the way I said. What's the problem anyway ?
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Old 17th August 2011, 02:28 PM   #656
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
The other choice is to trust the labs blindly. Like we did with NIST. It's not going to happen.

Unless it's done something like the way I said. What's the problem anyway ?
Will you "trust blindly" that the sample provided was not tampered with?
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Old 17th August 2011, 02:30 PM   #657
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Will you "trust blindly" that the sample provided was not tampered with?
As I said samples from NIST.Jones and RJ Lee could be tested simultaneously. Theoretically they should all be the same.
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Old 17th August 2011, 02:32 PM   #658
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
As I said samples from NIST.Jones and RJ Lee could be tested simultaneously. Theoretically they should be all the same.
Sounds good. When can we expect the results?
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Old 17th August 2011, 02:35 PM   #659
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
They are only observers, right?


Sounds good. Get it done.
Yes. Close observers who sign off on avery step.
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Old 17th August 2011, 02:37 PM   #660
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Yes. Close observers who sign off on avery step.
So, when can we expect the results?
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Old 17th August 2011, 02:38 PM   #661
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
More than one Truth scientist. Harrit for his eminent and relevent qualifications, probably Jones for his experience and one other to be decided.


That one deserves a whole family of laughing dogs. What experience does Jones have? He has none. None at all in materials characterisation and you want him as an arbitrator.

I'm just agog at Bill Smith. Bill how does your mind work? Getting an independent lab or 10 to do the work is so easy and relatively cheap bearing in mind how many truthers there are. I'm amazed you think the government could interfere. If I was the NWO/illuminati head honcho I'd have bumped Jones and his chums off years ago if they were onto the right track. I wouldn't wait until they publish a paper and then try to influence and independent laboratory by sending in some super sekrit agent to scare the technicians.
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Old 17th August 2011, 02:38 PM   #662
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
If it was done anonymously I doubt that the results would be widely accepted.
Seriously, why not? Send it to more than one lab. They have nothing to lose, their own results are not widely accepted as it is. I'd put my own money towards this.

What's the alternative, do you really want to be discussing the merits of various test protocols in ten or twenty years time? Will the samples be passed down to their children if no definitive tests are done before they die?
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Old 17th August 2011, 02:40 PM   #663
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Yes. Close observers who sign off on avery step.
You don't know the meaning of the word "independent" do you Bill. lol. My god truthers, they just get dumber don't they.
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Old 17th August 2011, 02:44 PM   #664
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Originally Posted by deeper View Post
Seriously, why not? Send it to more than one lab. They have nothing to lose, their own results are not widely accepted as it is. I'd put my own money towards this.

What's the alternative, do you really want to be discussing the merits of various test protocols in ten or twenty years time? Will the samples be passed down to their children if no definitive tests are done before they die?
It might be an idea to simultaneously send six samples to six different labs around the world. Then see if the results come up the same from each.

On the other hand NIST could do a test on their own diust and publish a peer reviewed paper.
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Old 17th August 2011, 02:44 PM   #665
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Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
You don't know the meaning of the word "independent" do you Bill. lol. My god truthers, they just get dumber don't they.
Let's be fair. I have no problem with them signing off that they observed the work being done.

I just want to know when they plan to do this.
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Old 17th August 2011, 02:49 PM   #666
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
On the other hand NIST could do a test on their own diust and publish a peer reviewed paper.
One thing at a time. If the results are as Harrit and Jones expect, they can use it to pressure NIST into publishing their own tests.



Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
It might be an idea to simultaneously send six samples to six different labs around the world. Then see if the results come up the same from each.
Sounds good to me.

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Old 17th August 2011, 02:55 PM   #667
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Originally Posted by deeper View Post
One thing at a time. If the results are as Harrit and Jones expect, they can use it to pressure NIST into publishing their own tests.





Sounds good to me.
Yes, I think your idea is a pretty good one . If they got positive results from six labs simultaneously it would put NIST under tremendous pressure. Harrit and Jones could sit in with a camera crew at one of the labs as a control.
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Old 17th August 2011, 03:00 PM   #668
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Yes, I think your idea is a pretty good one . If they got positive results from six labs simultaneously it would put NIST under tremendous pressure. Harrit and Jones could sit in with a camera crew at one of the labs as a control.
So, when are they going to start?
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Old 17th August 2011, 03:07 PM   #669
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Harrit and Jones could sit in with a camera crew at one of the labs as a control.
That would make a great YouTube video.
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Old 17th August 2011, 03:15 PM   #670
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Originally Posted by deeper View Post
That would make a great YouTube video.
It would work as proof that the controlled lab tests were done properly. Then even if some of the others were subverted it would be obvious. As well as keeping the Truth Movement included and informed.
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Old 17th August 2011, 03:16 PM   #671
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
It would work as proof that the controlled lab tests were done properly. Then even if some of the others were subverted it would be obvious. As well as keeping the Truth Movement included and informed.
So when are you guy's going to start this?
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Old 17th August 2011, 03:20 PM   #672
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
So when are you guy's going to start this?
God knows. I am as impatient as you are to get this under way.
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Old 17th August 2011, 03:22 PM   #673
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
God knows. I am as impatient as you are to get this under way.
Jones has been saying he was going to do this for 3 years. Maybe you could let us know when they get their act together. OK?
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Old 17th August 2011, 03:25 PM   #674
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
If it was done anonymously I doubt that the results would be widely accepted. If the samples were sent to an American or any major lab the tests might be faked due to goverment influence so again the results would not be accepted.

The way that would gain the most acceptance is probably the one I outlined.
Why wouldn't they not be accepted???? and how could gov. influence if they and the test lab don't even know who you are or what is being tested????

Heck you do it double blind with control samples of inert material and real thermite so that until all the results are back you yourself wouldn't know what went where. And lets face it if the gov really cared you'd be dead already.
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Old 17th August 2011, 03:25 PM   #675
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
It would work as proof that the controlled lab tests were done properly. Then even if some of the others were subverted it would be obvious. As well as keeping the Truth Movement included and informed.
To be honest, I think they owe it to the Truth Movement to carry out these tests because, as DGM implies with,

Originally Posted by DGM View Post
So, when are they going to start?
they've had a fair amount of time. What do you think about the fact that the tests have not been carried out already? It seems so easy. I really do feel like they owe it to those who have given them the benefit of the doubt.

Last edited by deeper; 17th August 2011 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 17th August 2011, 03:30 PM   #676
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Yes. Close observers who sign off on avery step.

who amongst twoofers is qualified to know what they were doing?



and how doe we get around the fact that all the twoofer samples have been through Jones hands and therefore are worthless as evidence. Its like letting the rapist have sole control of the evidence.....
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Old 17th August 2011, 03:43 PM   #677
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Originally Posted by deeper View Post
To be honest, I think they owe it to the Truth Movement to carry out these tests because, as DGM implies with,



they've had a fair amount of time. What do you think about the fact that the tests have not been carried out already? It seems so easy. I really do feel like they owe it to those who who have given them the benefit of the doubt.
I watched the Jones lecture in Boston dec.2007. I felt very let down (even suspicious) when he didn't send the samples fopr independent testing as he said he would.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVE_FdT6DN4

But when you think about it,at that time,with a brand new theory he had to be careful. If he had sent samples at that time to say Princeton, and they had come back saying that they had found only harmless dust the theory would have been stone dead in the water from the get go. And the liklehood is that a single phone call from the Whitehouse to the Dean of Princeton could have guaranteed that result.

So Jones opted to build up a more Grassroots support base of independent scientists culminating in the publication of his scientifically unchallenged peer reviewed paper. He has much more credibility now.

But I agree that it's getting critical for him to step up to the mark and and drop the hammer. Your plan seems to be a good way to go. If he doesn't do something soon conspiracy theories will start about him.
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Last edited by bill smith; 17th August 2011 at 03:58 PM.
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Old 17th August 2011, 05:08 PM   #678
grandmastershek
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
I watched the Jones lecture in Boston dec.2007. I felt very let down (even suspicious) when he didn't send the samples fopr independent testing as he said he would.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVE_FdT6DN4

But when you think about it,at that time,with a brand new theory he had to be careful. If he had sent samples at that time to say Princeton, and they had come back saying that they had found only harmless dust the theory would have been stone dead in the water from the get go. And the liklehood is that a single phone call from the Whitehouse to the Dean of Princeton could have guaranteed that result.

So Jones opted to build up a more Grassroots support base of independent scientists culminating in the publication of his scientifically unchallenged peer reviewed paper. He has much more credibility now.

But I agree that it's getting critical for him to step up to the mark and and drop the hammer. Your plan seems to be a good way to go. If he doesn't do something soon conspiracy theories will start about him.
Well Princeton for 1 isn't the only university. And I doubt they woudl rist their reputation to protect Bush.

Basically what he did was build up hype to influence morons & went to a BS publisher to dupe people into looking legit. He could have sent it to any lab who does forensice chem. Any. Yet he nor any of the so called dips who claim to have corroborate his results. Stop making excuses for him.

Last edited by grandmastershek; 17th August 2011 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 18th August 2011, 05:29 AM   #679
sheeplesnshills
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
The other choice is to trust the labs blindly. Like we did with NIST. It's not going to happen.

Unless it's done something like the way I said. What's the problem anyway ?
Not at all. They could send their lawyers........but of course if either a twoofer or their lawyer is there now its not an anonymous test and "they" could get at the lab owners to falsify the results. one couldn't tell by simple observation in any case if they were doing it properly.

I say apply the KISS process. Keep it simple, Stupid! Send samples and controls under pseudonyms to a number of labs and get the results.

It wouldn't actually make any difference to the argument though, twoofers would hand wave away any result that did not match their story (they do it with high Def video and simple maths and physics evidence) and since the dust has no provenance I, for one, wouldn't believe anything that came through Jones hands as he has poisoned that well.
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Old 18th August 2011, 05:40 AM   #680
sheeplesnshills
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Originally Posted by bill smith View Post

So Jones opted to build up a more Grassroots support base of independent scientists culminating in the publication of his scientifically unchallenged peer reviewed paper.
Lie #1, His "Scientists" are mostly in irrelevant fields and didn't do the tests in any case. The paper was NOT peer reviewed and was published in a vanity journal. And unchallenged?? It been utterly demolished!


Quote:
He has much more credibility now.
Lie #2 He has no credibility whatsoever outside the twoofer movement.
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