ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 13th June 2009, 12:36 AM   #1
Juniversal
CIA + FBI + NWO Employee
 
Juniversal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,145
[9/11] Critical Thinking For Dummies - Controlled Demolition

The tentants of the controlled demolition theory:
The subscribers of the controlled demolition theory generally believe either
1. Explosives were detonated to produce the collapse.
2. Or the incendiary Thermite was used to cut the steel.

1. "Explosives were detonated to produce the collapse"
To demolish the WTC towers in the manner they collapsed (Top down linearly) would require an enormous amount of explosives. Theorist contend the destruction seen in videos is due to explosives rather then compromised structural elements and mal-distributed weight. To reproduce the collapses using only explosives, explosives would likely have to be placed on every floor or every several floors for the entire length of the building and be detonated from the impact zone downward. Explosive placement redundancy would be neccesary since the conspirators wouldn't know exactly where the plane would crash.
  • CD would produce a flurry of loud, percussive explosions which the collapse wouldn't disguise, compounded by the fact that in this view the destruction is being caused by the explosives themselves rather then structural failure, giving the illusion of progressive failure
  • The explosives would be required to withstand the impact of a Jetliner, the subsequent explosion all the while silent during detonation
  • The explosives would be required to remain undetected by the bomb sniffing dogs, security, mantainance, guest and average employee's for months or years
  • The thousands of proposed demolition charges would have to go off with 100% reliability, lest they be found in the debris
  • Miles of wires would be required, hidden from view of the WTC staff

    *Truthers attempt to reconcile the last point by suggesting explosives were planted in the core by elevator operators which would require all operators to be part of the conspiracy unless you believe they wouldn't notice miles of explosive detonation cord conspicuously sprouting from random holes.

The implication is explosives were detonated progressively in a linear manner from the impact zone down to produce the illusion of a progressive collapse which would require explosives that could withstand the impact of a Jetliner and be silent when detonated at the same time. These simply don't exist.

The facts:
  • No controlled demolition paraphernalia was found in Debris
  • No explosions or other analogous controlled demolition hallmarks were heard or seen during collapse
  • None of the solid debris shown signs of being destroyed by explosives
  • Debris did show signs of being warped by heat as well as being removed of there fire proofing

2. "The incendiary Thermite was used to cut the steel"
Thermite has an extremely short life cycle, unlike fire which can survive as long as it has oxygen and combustible material, which there's an abundance of in an office building. Once Thermite is ignited and burns off all the reacting material/fuel (Iron Oxide/aluminum), it's dead. Thermite simply does not turn solid steel into molten steel. It corodes the metal and tends to leave ugly holes in the offending material.

Molten is defined as: Liquefied by heat; in a state of fusion; melted. This is NOT molten

Myth Busters Thermite Experiment
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

*Note the lack of any molten material besides the Thermite itself which only remains molten during its reaction.

A mechanism would be required to apply the Thermite horizontally. Even if there was a mechanism to distribute it horizontally it would likely only corrode a relatively small portion of the steel unless massive amounts were used on the individual columns. If there were any molten pools at Ground zero as some attest, it was most likely aluminum since as I stated earlier, Thermite doesn't turn solid steel into molten steel. Also due to Thermites fast reaction time it can not account for the months worth of high tempatures in the debris.

The Facts:
  • Thermite has never been used in building demolition
  • Thermite is not an explosive
  • No debris shown signs of being destroyed or distorted by thermite
  • Thermite burns extremely brightly; the proposed thermite charges would have been clearly visible had it been used in the WTC
  • Tons upon tons of Thermite would be required, incapsulated and placed in an unknown location (See what a half ton of Thermite looks like in the Myth Busters video)

Last edited by Juniversal; 13th June 2009 at 01:29 AM.
Juniversal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2009, 12:43 AM   #2
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
 
jhunter1163's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes.
Posts: 25,279
A couple of suggested additions:

The thousands of proposed demolition charges would have to go off with 100% reliability, lest they be found in the debris

Thermite burns extremely brightly; the prposed thermite charges would have been clearly visible had it been used in the WTC
__________________
A møøse ønce bit my sister
jhunter1163 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2009, 12:52 AM   #3
tuc0
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 508
http://icanhascheezburger.files.word...elon-water.jpg

Not to be too cynical though: good post. It's obviously wasted on the believers, but maybe some fence-sitters (if there are any of those) will appreciate it.
tuc0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2009, 01:02 AM   #4
Juniversal
CIA + FBI + NWO Employee
 
Juniversal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,145
Good points jhunter1163. I'll add them to the list.

@ tuc0...the Truthers who have there mind made up wouldn't be convinced by Alex and Steven Jones, Richard Gage, Niels Harrit, Jason Bermas AND Dylan Avery coming out and saying they were wrong. Those cases are a lost cause lol.
Juniversal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2009, 01:15 AM   #5
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,394
The meme that only explosives can destroy/melt steel is common in trutherdom when in fact steel is quite formidable to explosives. Here's a video that shows just how tough steel is to explosives.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Here's a pic to show just how deep a linear shaped charge can cut--only about 1.5".
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2009, 05:43 AM   #6
RedIbis
Philosopher
 
RedIbis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,899
Somenone's been watching way too many Roadrunner cartoons.
__________________
(RedIbis, on the other hand, exists to me only in quoted form). - Gravy (Mark Roberts)
RedIbis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2009, 10:29 AM   #7
Blender Head
Muse
 
Blender Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 679
Truthers would counter the 'det cords' reasoning and claim it was all done with remote detonators.
__________________
"As you know, Bush never attempted to link Saddam to the 9/11 attacks." -Ron Wieck
"The only way for there to be no conspiracy is for nothing to exist." -Travis
[DRG] is a follower of Jesus Christ and the Truth, so I will follow St. Griffin as well in this regard. -Galileo
Blender Head is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2009, 01:29 PM   #8
Juniversal
CIA + FBI + NWO Employee
 
Juniversal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,145
Originally Posted by Blender Head View Post
Truthers would counter the 'det cords' reasoning and claim it was all done with remote detonators.
Indeed. In truther land anythings possible. But regardless it wouldn't explain the absence of any phenomenon consistent with controlled demolition.
Juniversal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2009, 01:48 PM   #9
Sword_Of_Truth
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 11,494
Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
*Truthers attempt to reconcile the last point by suggesting explosives were planted in the core by elevator operators which would require all operators to be part of the conspiracy unless you believe they wouldn't notice miles of explosive detonation cord conspicuously sprouting from random holes.
The cores both remained standing for several seconds following the collapses.

There simply could not have been any bombs or destructive devices in the cores.
Sword_Of_Truth is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2009, 01:57 PM   #10
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 13,375
Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Somenone's been watching way too many Roadrunner cartoons.
Do you have anything meaningful to add to the discussion, or are you here to merely engage in the exact same behavior you decried in the "Questions for Truthers" thread?
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2009, 02:01 PM   #11
Justin39640
Illuminator
 
Justin39640's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,199
Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
The cores both remained standing for several seconds following the collapses.

There simply could not have been any bombs or destructive devices in the cores.
the spire was taller than WTC7
the video that was shot by the poster "911eyewitness" has a great shot of it
total collapse was about 30 seconds when you watch that video
__________________
"I joined this forum to learn about the people who think that 9/11 was an inside job. I've learned that they believe nutty things and are not very good at explaining them." - FineWine
"The agencies involved with studying the WTC collapse no more needed to consider explosives than the police need to consider brain cancer in a shooting death." - ElMondoHummus
Justin39640 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2009, 02:02 PM   #12
Sword_Of_Truth
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 11,494
Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
But regardless it wouldn't explain the absence of any phenomenon consistent with controlled demolition.
[tinfoilhat]

Oh... you mean phenomena like the sounds of EXPLOSIONS!?!

*spews quote-jizz all over the thread*

[/tinfoil]
Sword_Of_Truth is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2009, 02:35 PM   #13
1337m4n
Alphanumeric Anonymous Stick Man
 
1337m4n's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,510
Originally Posted by RedIbis View Post
Somenone's been watching way too many Roadrunner cartoons.
I assume the reason you're writing such cryptic is so that when people inevitably fail to comprehend your profound secret hidden meaning, you can masturbate with glee over how much smarter and more clever you are than everybody else.
__________________
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...2b728514ea.gif

"The evidence that the attacks of 9/11 were an inside job just keeps not coming in." --pomeroo
1337m4n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2009, 04:52 PM   #14
Juniversal
CIA + FBI + NWO Employee
 
Juniversal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,145
Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
The cores both remained standing for several seconds following the collapses.

There simply could not have been any bombs or destructive devices in the cores.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


^...This is the best footage of the core collapse that i'm aware of (in building 1 mind you). You can clearly see it begin collapsing at 0:09. I saw this video for the first time earlier this week when I stumbled across the profile page (I guess it was a companion to the debunking 9/11 webpage).

@ Justin39640..interesting. Do you know if that footage is online?

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
[tinfoilhat]

Oh... you mean phenomena like the sounds of EXPLOSIONS!?!

*spews quote-jizz all over the thread*

[/tinfoil]
Yea I knew the theorist would be all over that. That's why I pointed out the illogic in the theory itself (if explosives were being detonated and causing the destruction it would be laughably conspicuous and clearly seen and heard, especially in the videos filmed close to the Towers as they began to collapse).
Juniversal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:51 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.