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View Poll Results: Should the 9/11 conspiracy theory section be closed?
Yes 45 37.50%
No 75 62.50%
Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 14th June 2009, 08:56 PM   #1
Baylor
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Should the 9/11 CT subforum be closed?

Should the 9/11 Conspiracy Theory subforum be closed?

Pro: Yes, the 9/11 CT subforum is a troll buffet. The 9/11 truthers have not come up with anything new in years. Having a subforum solely for their crazy ideas only gives them the attention they crave and thus reinforces their behavior. Once we stop dignifying their crap, the 9/11 Truth movement will distance itself even further from reality.

Con: No, there are many people who are just now learning about 9/11 conspiracy theories, mostly young people. Since they could not fully understand the events of 9/11 when it happened, it's important to have a forum to counter the junk ideas on the Internet. Imagine doing a high school report on 9/11 and searching the Internet for information; you find yourself up to the teeth in websites telling you "what really happened". You know the websites claims are bizarre and mostly likely wrong, but, being young, you cannot explain why. A place to discuss their BS is worth the effort.
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Old 14th June 2009, 09:00 PM   #2
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keep it open. I don't want to be reduced to talking about Dallas again. Its like going back and to the left, back and to the left, back and to the left.
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Old 14th June 2009, 09:08 PM   #3
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I personally can care less... but as far as I'm aware the entire reason behind the subforum is because these topics continually flooded the main CT forum category. Getting rid of this one may well result in the same circumstances that led to this section being made in the first place. I didn't join until AFTER they made this subsection apparently, so... and if people don't want to retype the same crap that was made apparent years ago... the thread catalogue would most likely serve the best purpose as a substitute... the only issue is it hasn't been completed.
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Old 14th June 2009, 09:12 PM   #4
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I voted to close it, but maybe it can be saved. How about each 9/11 CTists who creates a thread submits a PayPal donation to JREF. If the thread offers a unique and reasonably plausible alternative take on the events of 9/11, they get their money back. If not, thread gets closed and JREF keeps the money.

Based on the past year, I'd say JREF would have kept about 99% of the donations.

Note: Don't ask me to provide evidence for the 1%, I'm in a particularly good mood and decided to be kind.
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Old 14th June 2009, 09:42 PM   #5
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I voted to close it. Let them post in the CT section. I agree that it gives them extra attention by having their own subforum.
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Old 14th June 2009, 09:51 PM   #6
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I voted not to close it. JREF is a discussion forum, and a popular topic should have a venue for people to discuss it, and anyone has a right to discuss a topic - newbies, debunkers and yes, even twoofers.

I may change my mind on this in a short while, but right now I'm pretty certain, since I've just had a week's holiday away from the internet, and was happy to realise I merely thought about CTs once, even though I've been discussing them practically every day for about 4 years. (It's true - 9/11 twoof disappears if you switch off the interweb machine.)
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Old 14th June 2009, 10:16 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Bobert View Post
I voted to close it. Let them post in the CT section. I agree that it gives them extra attention by having their own subforum.
But it isn't "their" subforum. This is where they come to die.

I say keep it open. Like it or not, there really isn't any place on the web quite like this, where highly knowledgeable people from diverse backgrounds simply destroy 9/11 truth with about as much effort as one butters their morning toast.

If that isn't of any benefit to those on the fence then I don't know what is and yes, this place very much puts the "E" in JREF. I can't begin to tell you all how much I've learned since I began lurking here about a year and a half ago.
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Old 14th June 2009, 10:35 PM   #8
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Option #3: We keep the forum open until Al-Queada wakes up and realizes they don't need to come up with something spectacularly huge to force western civilization into having a massive $#!+, rents a truck, buys a ton of fertilizer and we start the whole bloody goat rodeo all over again.
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Old 14th June 2009, 10:46 PM   #9
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Keep it open.


But then nuke from orbit.
It's the only way to be sure.
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Old 15th June 2009, 12:37 AM   #10
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I'm voting 'closed,' but under normal circumstances a less dramatic solution should be possible.

Two key observations:
  • The rancor in the subforum can be traced to a very small number of individuals. You know who I'm talking about; the only variable is the name of the latest Balsamo sock. If these individuals should happen to get themselves banned, then it would calm down here very, very quickly. It also should be said that if the rest of you lot stopped rising to their bait, it would also calm down here overnight. The moderators could solve this, but cannot be blamed for not solving this.
  • There are no fence-sitters. Seriously, there are not. Two years ago there were, and I argued to keep it open, but no longer. As we approach eight years since the event in question, about which there are more publicly available reports and studies than any event since World War II, anyone claiming to be a fence-sitter fits into one of two categories -- either someone who doesn't understand and needs instruction, or someone who hasn't done his homework and is not ready for instruction. Anyone who can operate a search engine and knows how to read can find what she's looking for, if the search is conducted in good faith.

Nothing new is going to happen. In six months or so Dr. Jones will scrape up enough money to buy another nonsense Bentham article, and Mr. Gage will attend another AIA conference without submitting a paper. Who cares? Nothing new is going to happen. Bank on it.
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Old 15th June 2009, 01:03 AM   #11
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You're absolutely right about everything, Mackey.

But...

If you kill the 9/11 forum, the usual gang of idiots will bury the main CT forum. Think of it as a kind of quarantine. If keeping the junk from polluting the rest of forums.randi.org doesn't cost JREF anything more financially, then keep the 911CT forum going.
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Old 15th June 2009, 01:47 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
If you kill the 9/11 forum, the usual gang of idiots will bury the main CT forum. Think of it as a kind of quarantine. If keeping the junk from polluting the rest of forums.randi.org doesn't cost JREF anything more financially, then keep the 911CT forum going.
I think this is a very strong argument.

It seems to me that the question of closing this forum is typically approached from the wrong direction. The premise seems to be that, if the 9/11 CT forum is closed, then discussion of 9/11 on JREF will cease. I don't see any credible evidence being presented for this belief. The CT forum was originally created, as I understand it, to free up the General Skepticism and the Paranormal forum from the noise level created by 9/11 CT threads. This sub-forum was then created to free up the parent CT forum from the same noise level, so that other conspiracy theories with somewhat less atrocious levels of supporting evidence could be discussed there without frequent derails. Discussion of 9/11 is not, therefore, created, or even facilitated, by the existence of a forum specifically dedicated to it; rather, the forum exists as a place where that discussion can be contained. If it is closed, the discussion will move back to the general CT forum; if that is closed, where next? Politics? Science, Engineering, Medicine and Technology? It probably won't go away, so where other than here do we want it to go?

A more rational solution might be simply to move the sub-forum. Based on current content, it might be more appropriately positioned as a sub-forum of Abandon All Hope. It would certainly save the moderators a lot of time and effort.

Dave
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Old 15th June 2009, 01:48 AM   #13
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I say let the forum open, but change the rules to anything goes.
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Old 15th June 2009, 01:50 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Based on current content, it might be more appropriately positioned as a sub-forum of Abandon All Hope. It would certainly save the moderators a lot of time and effort.
I think this is a very strong argument.
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Old 15th June 2009, 02:15 AM   #15
Baylor
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I think this is a very strong argument.

It seems to me that the question of closing this forum is typically approached from the wrong direction. The premise seems to be that, if the 9/11 CT forum is closed, then discussion of 9/11 on JREF will cease. I don't see any credible evidence being presented for this belief. The CT forum was originally created, as I understand it, to free up the General Skepticism and the Paranormal forum from the noise level created by 9/11 CT threads. This sub-forum was then created to free up the parent CT forum from the same noise level, so that other conspiracy theories with somewhat less atrocious levels of supporting evidence could be discussed there without frequent derails. Discussion of 9/11 is not, therefore, created, or even facilitated, by the existence of a forum specifically dedicated to it; rather, the forum exists as a place where that discussion can be contained. If it is closed, the discussion will move back to the general CT forum; if that is closed, where next? Politics? Science, Engineering, Medicine and Technology? It probably won't go away, so where other than here do we want it to go?
A rebuttal to that would be that we're in the second half of 2009, not 2006. 9/11 CTs no longer get mentioned in any signifcant medium. All but the most dedicated trolls have moved on. Giving them their own playground brings the quality of the JREF forums down. Sure, if this subforum gets closed, 9/11 CTs will still be discussed in different sections, but the trolls would have to go looking for their food rather than having it fed to them on a silver plate. That would significantly reduce the trolls' influence in the JREF. It's in the trolls' nature to be lazy. Another question to ask is: are there enough quality threads on 9/11 to warrant its own subforum?
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Old 15th June 2009, 02:32 AM   #16
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I`ve changed my mind, close it. We trolls will be fine and you guys can still occupy your time saving the world from magicians and bigfoot believers
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Old 15th June 2009, 02:37 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Tweeter View Post
I`ve changed my mind, close it. We trolls will be fine and you guys can still occupy your time saving the world from magicians and bigfoot believers
Case in point.
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Old 15th June 2009, 04:04 AM   #18
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I voted to keep it open. Even though I am the first to say the TM is essentially dead, and that we should ignore them (my ignore list is probably the largest), I have reasons for keeping it open...

1. though not common, there are new topics, such as the Jones paper, the Bentham debacle, etc... These are noteworthy and deserve a place for discussion.

2. These socks, as we can see not only with the PdoH variations, but now the CIT/Captain Bob ones, as well as Ultima's attempts, are going to keep coming. As long as the debunkers remain in the JREF forums at all...they will come. For that reason I think it is better to have a place for them to post, whether it be good or bad, so as to keep the rest of the forums relatively free of them. If we close this subforum, I GUARANTEE they will start to clog up the general CT forum, and if that is closed, they will go to other subforums and turn them into a mess.

3. The 9/11 CT area has become a community unto itself. Now I agree with others who have said we should all branch out into other areas of the forums...fair enough, but that may not be desired by some. To some, this is the place to come, where they can talk about the latest truther insanity. If that makes them feel better, well, then why not.

It is clear, that this subforum has deteriorated in terms of dialog quality and content quality. That mostly has to do with Debunker Fatigue Syndrome, which I now think can become a chronic disorder. I know I suffer from it. I just do not have the energy or the will, to present the arguments to debunk an myth brought here by the 18th reincarnation of P-diddy doh. However, I think the forum is worth keeping open, if for nothing more than having a place to confine the topics, confine the trolling, and perhaps, a place to allow a new generation of debunkers to present the arguments to the socks...lol

TAM
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Old 15th June 2009, 04:46 AM   #19
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Close it. There is nothing new and they just rehash old crap. Like the Apollo hoax stuff, they just ignore anything contradictory to their preconceived notions and repost the exact same stuff endlessly.
Look where the Apollo hoax fools are now. Ignore it and they become even more marginalized.
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Old 15th June 2009, 04:50 AM   #20
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Keep it open. It's too much of a burden on the regular CT forum, like bigfoot times 20 in the general skepticism area.
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Old 15th June 2009, 07:06 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
If you kill the 9/11 forum, the usual gang of idiots will bury the main CT forum. Think of it as a kind of quarantine. If keeping the junk from polluting the rest of forums.randi.org doesn't cost JREF anything more financially, then keep the 911CT forum going.
This is correct.
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Old 15th June 2009, 07:08 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
Close it. There is nothing new and they just rehash old crap. Like the Apollo hoax stuff, they just ignore anything contradictory to their preconceived notions and repost the exact same stuff endlessly.
Look where the Apollo hoax fools are now. Ignore it and they become even more marginalized.
are you telling me Apollo does not ride a golden chariot across the sky everyday?
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Old 15th June 2009, 07:23 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
  • There are no fence-sitters. Seriously, there are not. Two years ago there were, and I argued to keep it open, but no longer. As we approach eight years since the event in question, about which there are more publicly available reports and studies than any event since World War II, anyone claiming to be a fence-sitter fits into one of two categories -- either someone who doesn't understand and needs instruction, or someone who hasn't done his homework and is not ready for instruction. Anyone who can operate a search engine and knows how to read can find what she's looking for, if the search is conducted in good faith.
i hate to disagree with you
ive turned two friends in the last two months that were fence sitters
im a field tech
i talk to thousands of "regular joes" a year
more than once in recent months i have gotten into a 911 discussion and even turned a few "over the fence" truthers with the info i got here (along with other resources)

i think there is a lot of lurkers that come here that never register
i have for years
yet i only registered last month
it is a great source of info and i think it would be a shame if that resource was gone (the subforum)

truthers baiting tends to make them dig their own grave
i think from the outside looking in its pretty obvious theyre all nuts lol
since this is one of the few sites with both sides represented
to lose that looking glass for lurkers may be a disservice even if youre annoyed by the insanity personally
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Old 15th June 2009, 07:27 AM   #24
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Those aren't fence-sitters. Those are "uneducated people."

Nothing wrong with being uneducated and wanting to learn, of course. But ask yourself: Is what this sub-forum has become the best educational resource? Two years ago it was the best place to go, but now, not so much.
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Old 15th June 2009, 07:30 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
Those aren't fence-sitters. Those are "uneducated people."

Nothing wrong with being uneducated and wanting to learn, of course. But ask yourself: Is what this sub-forum has become the best educational resource? Two years ago it was the best place to go, but now, not so much.
if they were educated they wouldnt be on the fence in the first place lol
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Old 15th June 2009, 07:34 AM   #26
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But that's exactly my point. The subforum, once upon a time, existed because there could, in theory, be some rational position taken by the opposition. Discussion and further investigation were needed. This is what we did (amid a red haze of name-calling and sockpuppet theatre).

Now, in contrast, it's abundantly clear that there is no discussion. It's over. The Truth Movement was examined and defeated in detail. There's no further question unless some shocking and unanticipated new evidence appears someday, but until then, it's time to shut it down.

What the uneducated need is a primer, not a discussion forum. Gravy's archive project would be valuable. So too are resources like 911Myths, and shows like the BBC investigation. Nothing that calls for holding this place open, in my opinion.
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Old 15th June 2009, 07:35 AM   #27
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As admin:

Whilst I will of course look at the results of the poll, there are no plans currently being considered, that would indicate that the 9/11 section will be being closed.
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Old 15th June 2009, 08:04 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
But that's exactly my point. The subforum, once upon a time, existed because there could, in theory, be some rational position taken by the opposition. Discussion and further investigation were needed. This is what we did (amid a red haze of name-calling and sockpuppet theatre).

Now, in contrast, it's abundantly clear that there is no discussion. It's over. The Truth Movement was examined and defeated in detail. There's no further question unless some shocking and unanticipated new evidence appears someday, but until then, it's time to shut it down.

What the uneducated need is a primer, not a discussion forum. Gravy's archive project would be valuable. So too are resources like 911Myths, and shows like the BBC investigation. Nothing that calls for holding this place open, in my opinion.
the truth should have been defeated 3 minutes into the first viewing of loose change lol
unfortunately it wasnt

in 2007 it should have been dead (5 years later,2 years ago)
but it wasnt

it was just as annoying as it was today
i havnt see any new "theories" between 05- 06 (when i started gettin annoyed at "truth") till now

some people still argue the moon landings
theres no indication this will just go away on its own by ignoring it

im sorry if my posts annoy, seem dumb, etc
i know i feed some and make fun, i like a good laugh (i guess ill change my avatar too )
but my driving force is the disrespect that truthers seem to have for victims & families, that hasnt died down at all if anything its worse than ever as the truth is holding on for dear life
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Old 15th June 2009, 08:28 AM   #29
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Keep it open, but put every truther except RedIbis on ignore.
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Old 15th June 2009, 08:34 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
I'm voting 'closed,' but under normal circumstances a less dramatic solution should be possible.

Two key observations:
  • The rancor in the subforum can be traced to a very small number of individuals. You know who I'm talking about; the only variable is the name of the latest Balsamo sock. If these individuals should happen to get themselves banned, then it would calm down here very, very quickly. It also should be said that if the rest of you lot stopped rising to their bait, it would also calm down here overnight. The moderators could solve this, but cannot be blamed for not solving this.
  • There are no fence-sitters. Seriously, there are not. Two years ago there were, and I argued to keep it open, but no longer. As we approach eight years since the event in question, about which there are more publicly available reports and studies than any event since World War II, anyone claiming to be a fence-sitter fits into one of two categories -- either someone who doesn't understand and needs instruction, or someone who hasn't done his homework and is not ready for instruction. Anyone who can operate a search engine and knows how to read can find what she's looking for, if the search is conducted in good faith.

Nothing new is going to happen. In six months or so Dr. Jones will scrape up enough money to buy another nonsense Bentham article, and Mr. Gage will attend another AIA conference without submitting a paper. Who cares? Nothing new is going to happen. Bank on it.
As everyone is aware, I agree with Mackey completely on this one.
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Old 15th June 2009, 11:11 AM   #31
beachnut
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Is that what happen to JFK and Bigfoot? Solved, game over, people stopped spewing delusions?

Last edited by beachnut; 15th June 2009 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 15th June 2009, 11:20 AM   #32
tuc0
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Originally Posted by Justin39640 View Post
the truth should have been defeated 3 minutes into the first viewing of loose change lol
unfortunately it wasnt

in 2007 it should have been dead (5 years later,2 years ago)
but it wasnt

it was just as annoying as it was today
i havnt see any new "theories" between 05- 06 (when i started gettin annoyed at "truth") till now

some people still argue the moon landings
theres no indication this will just go away on its own by ignoring it

im sorry if my posts annoy, seem dumb, etc
i know i feed some and make fun, i like a good laugh (i guess ill change my avatar too )
but my driving force is the disrespect that truthers seem to have for victims & families, that hasnt died down at all if anything its worse than ever as the truth is holding on for dear life

I'm a fan of your free-form debunker poetry
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Old 15th June 2009, 11:33 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by firecoins View Post
are you telling me Apollo does not ride a golden chariot across the sky everyday?
That was then. So as not to favor any particular religion, all the sun gods have to alternate. Apollo is lucky to make the trip once a decade. Damned cultural relativism.
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Old 15th June 2009, 11:44 AM   #34
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I voted to keep it open. Although I agree that there are No True Fence-SittersTM, there are still people who are being turned from the CT's by posts at JREF. I would guess that most of these are younger people who started off as CTists by refusing to look at or listen to the counter-arguments. I know I just posted this very recently, but here is a snip from the post from Hourglassmemory from January of this year. (My bolding.)

Originally Posted by Hourglassmemory View Post
In just a few months, I’ll be turning 20, grateful more than ever, that if I hadn’t gone through all of the things I went through in my mind, if I hadn’t actually believed in a gigantic myriad of things and having all these “possibilities” hit me in my heart and believing in them with vehemence and honesty, and if I hadn’t had the likes of the SGU podcast and the JREF forums I would never really understand why people fall for these things, nor do I know where I would be mentally.

The original post is rather long, but if you are currently suffering from Debunker Fatigue Syndrome, I strongly recommend following the link and reading the entire thing. It is quite encouraging.
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Old 15th June 2009, 11:59 AM   #35
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I say lock it, but keep it viewable as a resource.

JFK, Apollo, vaccines etc etc don't get their own subforums, and they all seem to attract the same crowd.

Most of the topics that have been started the last year or so seem to be just about making fun of Twoofers. Which is fishing with dynamite. I really don't see this thread as productive anymore.

the reason 9/11 CTs flooded the main CT forum is because it was a hot topic a few years ago. I don't think that's the case anymore. Kind of like how there was a 2008 presidential race sub forum in politics.

Are we really worried about a specific CT being posted in the CT section?
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Old 15th June 2009, 12:37 PM   #36
Hokulele
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
the reason 9/11 CTs flooded the main CT forum is because it was a hot topic a few years ago. I don't think that's the case anymore. Kind of like how there was a 2008 presidential race sub forum in politics.

I think you have the sequence of events backwards. There was no forum specifically for CTs originally, they all got lumped into either General Skepticism or Politics. After Loose Change was released, there was suddenly a swarm of posts about September 11 CTs, and the Powers-That-Be decided to quarantine them in their own sub-forum, call 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, even though aspects of the discussions did include Science, Politics, and Current Affairs. Some time later, the general Conspiracy Theory sub-forum was started, and 9/11 was made a sub-forum of that one, as the various CTists who posted here started branching off into rants about Pearl Harbor, JFK, USS Liberty, etc.
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Old 15th June 2009, 12:40 PM   #37
Hokulele
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OK, I should do research before posting. I looked into this a little further, and I was only half-right. The CT sub-forum did come about due to 9/11, but it was always labeled as a general topic, not specific to 9/11. Mea culpa.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116499
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Old 15th June 2009, 12:43 PM   #38
Juniversal
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I say keep it open or as Donal said lock it but keep the information viewable. Since 9/11 conspiracy theories are so rampant and common this forum is a great resource of consolidated information. I usually can dig up facts to debunk a truther claim within seconds. Just for my sake i've gained more pertinent information in the short time i've been then I could have otherwise.
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Old 15th June 2009, 12:46 PM   #39
Seymour Butz
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I voted to keep it open.

And if it were possible, I'd vote that those idiots that respond to the vile trolls like Ultima1 be taken out and flogged. Although it seems that there's more than a few sado masochists and dominatrixes floating around here, so that may not be a viable punishment.

It serves no purpose to respond to these trolls more than once. One response, that's all folks. Any more than that and it only serves for these wastes of protoplasm to get their rocks off.

Why do you think Ultima1's spelling was so horrible? Cuz his right hand was busy.......
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Old 15th June 2009, 12:51 PM   #40
AJM8125
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Originally Posted by Seymour Butz View Post
I voted to keep it open.

And if it were possible, I'd vote that those idiots that respond to the vile trolls like Ultima1 be taken out and flogged. Although it seems that there's more than a few sado masochists and dominatrixes floating around here, so that may not be a viable punishment.

It serves no purpose to respond to these trolls more than once. One response, that's all folks. Any more than that and it only serves for these wastes of protoplasm to get their rocks off.

Why do you think Ultima1's spelling was so horrible? Cuz his right hand was busy.......
Well there's a visual that won't be leaving me anytime soon.
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