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Tags controlled demolition , debate , hardfire , world trade center

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Old 6th July 2009, 08:17 PM   #1
R.Mackey
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Hardfire: Szamboti / Chandler / Mackey

Many of you know of Hardfire and the series, hosted by Ron Wieck (formerly known here as pomeroo), that examines the Truth Movement and its theories. I spoke with Ron again today, and he informed me that Tony Szamboti and David Chandler were interested in appearing and discussing their theories with me. So we're on, taping date and release to be announced when available.

Apparently this is not a direct response to my previous shows on Hardfire, which is a pity -- absolutely no one took me up on my Hardfire Modeling Challenge -- but, so far as I can tell, the debate is open to a wide range of topics but focusing on the World Trade Center and the NIST investigations thereof.

I have in the past given both Tony and David my feedback (see here and here, along with followups in the respective threads). In fact, after the latest exchange with Tony, I had not expected him to surface again. However, leaving the past in the past, they have both had quite some time to think about my concerns as well as those of others, so I am hopeful that they can provide a thoughtful response in this format.

To avoid sandbagging the debate, I will avoid engaging in discussion with them on their own personal theories until taping is completed. In the meantime, I encourage respectful discussion here of other viewpoints both pro and con their positions and mine, and if there are suggestions for the show (questions, related material, anyone else wants to participate, whatever) that's welcome too. I make no promises but I'll do the best I can.

Those of you who enjoy highjacking threads (I'm looking at you, Heiwa), don't bother, you're already on Ignore and you will be reported on sight. Let's keep this clean, I always say, and this time maybe I'll get my wish. Thanks.
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Old 6th July 2009, 08:25 PM   #2
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Mr. Mackey,

First off, I have absolutely NO idea what "Hardfire" is, so forgive me.

Is it like an open debate?? Is the Hardfire host a Truther?? Forgive me, I am uneducate in this subject.

Keep us posted.
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Old 6th July 2009, 08:35 PM   #3
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Thumbs up

I'm looking forward to it. You know their M.O. very well by now. They're going to go right in for the kill. "NIST admits Free fall speed!" I would just look for the most persuasive ways to counter that nonsense i.e. inform the layman that it's meaningless.
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Old 6th July 2009, 08:43 PM   #4
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Tri.

go to youtube and look up hardfire ryan mackey physics of 9/11 (btw Ryan, they were Brilliant)

or look up hardfire and mark roberts.

or the classic hardfire and Richard Gage (and his fantastic (snicker) cardboard box demonstrations.)

It is public access channel out of New York. They have quite a "diverse" amount of shows, but they are pretty fair and honest.
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Old 6th July 2009, 08:44 PM   #5
TexasJack
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
Mr. Mackey,

First off, I have absolutely NO idea what "Hardfire" is, so forgive me.

Is it like an open debate?? Is the Hardfire host a Truther?? Forgive me, I am uneducate in this subject.

Keep us posted.
The host is Ron Wieck, who used to post here, is not a truther, far from it. In fact he got banned here because he could not control his vicious attacks on the poor truthers. However, when he moderates, he is very professional towards them. Here is an example:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...53335910175330

Last edited by TexasJack; 6th July 2009 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 6th July 2009, 08:49 PM   #6
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Ok, I will watch those. Thanks for the info!!

BTW, I have a hard time with "truthers" myself given my background. I want to let loose and go off, but I know I would get banned. And quick too. I have a bit of a potty mouth.
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Old 6th July 2009, 08:52 PM   #7
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Good stuff Ryan. I'll do my best to dig up some points that might be relevant.

Let us know as soon as you have a taping date.
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Old 6th July 2009, 08:55 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
Ok, I will watch those. Thanks for the info!!

BTW, I have a hard time with "truthers" myself given my background. I want to let loose and go off, but I know I would get banned. And quick too. I have a bit of a potty mouth.
i hear ya bro lol
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Old 6th July 2009, 08:57 PM   #9
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is there an audience?
its taped in brooklyn id like to go watch
dont look like it though
and mackey was live via logitech lol
i'd be out woo'd in studio
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Old 6th July 2009, 09:32 PM   #10
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Do you have a rough idea of when you will start taping?
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Old 6th July 2009, 09:34 PM   #11
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That reminds me - Ryan, if you haven't already planned to do so, please get some proper light on yourself for the show. The first one made you look like you were in a cave somewhere.
Unless yer planning to tape in the studio..then disregard the above.
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Old 6th July 2009, 09:36 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
That reminds me - Ryan, if you haven't already planned to do so, please get some proper light on yourself for the show. The first one made you look like you were in a cave somewhere.
Unless yer planning to tape in the studio..then disregard the above.

And dress in solid colors, for Pete's sake.

Maybe let your wife pick your outfit?
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Old 6th July 2009, 09:43 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
That reminds me - Ryan, if you haven't already planned to do so, please get some proper light on yourself for the show. The first one made you look like you were in a cave somewhere.
Unless yer planning to tape in the studio..then disregard the above.

. . . because we all know that cave-men can't appear on Hardfire, much less destroy anything, ever, be they arguments, woo-fantasy, or very tall buildings.
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Old 6th July 2009, 09:44 PM   #14
R.Mackey
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Do you have a rough idea of when you will start taping?
Not really, probably by end of month.

Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
That reminds me - Ryan, if you haven't already planned to do so, please get some proper light on yourself for the show. The first one made you look like you were in a cave somewhere.
Unless yer planning to tape in the studio..then disregard the above.
The studio is a mere 2200 miles away... I'll see what I can do.

Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
And dress in solid colors, for Pete's sake.

Maybe let your wife pick your outfit?
Got a great shirt in red and green zig-zag picked out just for you. Unless Ron and Gary can shoot this one in HD, in which case I'll work up a fractal in contrasting primaries.
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Old 6th July 2009, 09:46 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
Got a great shirt in red and green zig-zag picked out just for you. Unless Ron and Gary can shoot this one in HD, in which case I'll work up a fractal in contrasting primaries.

So, turn the monitor off and leave the speakers on. Got it.

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Old 6th July 2009, 09:46 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
Got a great shirt in red and green zig-zag picked out just for you. Unless Ron and Gary can shoot this one in HD, in which case I'll work up a fractal in contrasting primaries.
This would be a great shirt, if done right.
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Old 6th July 2009, 09:47 PM   #17
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Thumbs up

I am confident that we are sending the best man in, armed with the facts. It's actually encouraging to me that we're getting down to technical analysis instead of the usual BS. They can't win on that field, all they can win on is the blizzard of factoids method, but even that's worn thin with the great job by Mark.
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Old 6th July 2009, 09:51 PM   #18
R.Mackey
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
So, turn the monitor off and leave the speakers on. Got it.
S'matter, you don't enjoy migranes..?

Originally Posted by Minadin View Post
This would be a great shirt, if done right.
I have a rather shocking fluorescent green shirt and jittering paisley necktie combination. Wear it to weddings, mostly. It's quite nice, in its own way, though it tends to damage recording equipment.
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Old 6th July 2009, 09:52 PM   #19
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Don't get overconfident. Remember that most people are of lower-than-mean intelligence and that a large number of the rest are idiots who cannot be bothered to think. Most faceoffs like this leave the guys who are right scoring points for being right, but the crazies take the majority of points by being interesting.
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Old 6th July 2009, 10:02 PM   #20
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Good luck to all three of you... Tony and Cha--- well.... Tony anyway knows my opinion of his issues with the entire CD thing but I'll send my regards to him anyway. Hopefully it goes well for you guys. I'll provide pancakes and syrup, just don't step in my maple traps. :|
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Old 6th July 2009, 10:03 PM   #21
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make sure you get a haircut
you wouldnt want to end up as a lego photoshop on some truther forum lol
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Last edited by Justin39640; 6th July 2009 at 10:04 PM.
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Old 6th July 2009, 10:38 PM   #22
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Are Chandler and Tony gonna pull a Sarah Palin thing? You know, when asked a question, give a no response reponse and say "That's an interesting question but this is my chance to talk to the American people. Did you know Larry Silverstein said 'pull it' and the towers fell at free fall speed and there was molten metal at GZ?"
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Old 6th July 2009, 11:22 PM   #23
R.Mackey
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Originally Posted by dropzone View Post
Don't get overconfident.
After nearly 5,000 posts here against everyone from Ace Baker to Zlaya, and hardly a mark on me, what reason would I have to feel overconfident?

Originally Posted by Justin39640 View Post
make sure you get a haircut
you wouldnt want to end up as a lego photoshop on some truther forum lol
Got one. Your avatar really creeps me out, incidentally.

Originally Posted by UNLoVedRebel View Post
Are Chandler and Tony gonna pull a Sarah Palin thing? You know, when asked a question, give a no response reponse and say "That's an interesting question but this is my chance to talk to the American people. Did you know Larry Silverstein said 'pull it' and the towers fell at free fall speed and there was molten metal at GZ?"
I can't imagine they'd try that, given they want to remain visible and continue pushing their own views. It would hardly serve them to behave in such a manner. I trust they'll conduct themselves more honestly, but we shall see.
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Old 7th July 2009, 12:00 AM   #24
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Do a Joaquin Phoenix. Or wear a "8-Bit Tie."

This should be interesting. I would expect them to go with something completely out of left field and pepper you with meaningless and unrelated canards the second you start pulling the blocks out of their Jenga tower.

Ohh...better yet, bring a goofy hat. Like a foam ten-gallon one. When one of them starts ranting and raving, don't even try to cut him off. Just don the goofy hat and kick back until he gets done. Then take it off when it's you're turn to talk.

Eventually you'll get asked "What's up with the hat?"

"Oh, this? I only wear this hat to signify that my opponent has completely run out of substantive arguments, and is only going to spew unrelated non-sequitirs in an attempt to hijack the debate. So rather than shouting him down, I put the hat on so people at home know what's going on. Plus, the hat is awesome."
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Old 7th July 2009, 12:15 AM   #25
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R.M ...

I can't quite work out from your o/p whether you will or will not be specifically debating their pet theories, or whether it will be freestyle.
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Old 7th July 2009, 12:31 AM   #26
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Having enjoyed your previous Hardfire shows and there informative and educational content I look forward to the forth coming show.

However, I do have a concern. In that by debating them that you give them a platform to promote their AGENDA, which to most of us has nothing to do with the truth or the lessons that can be learnt from these events. Someone of your stature debating them gives them recognition and validity that they crave.

I think Dawkins position of not debating Theists is probably the best stance.

What’s your take on it?

Woof!
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Old 7th July 2009, 02:34 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by TexasJack View Post
The host is Ron Wieck, who used to post here, is not a truther, far from it. In fact he got banned here because he could not control his vicious attacks on the poor truthers. However, when he moderates, he is very professional towards them. Here is an example:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...53335910175330
I found that session to be quite frustrating to watch. Fetzer did most of the talking with Mark barely able to get his points in. I'm not going to go back to check, but I don't think Mark got to finish any of his points without being interrupted.

Ryan, I'd suggest that Ron take firmer control of the give and take and especially squash fillibustering.
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Old 7th July 2009, 03:55 AM   #28
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I would prefer to see two members against two. I fear they will try to drown you out or double team you Ryan.

Now I know you can more than handle yourself, however a TV show is far different then a forum, so just be cognizant of what I have said.

Also, be prepared for the usual, you know, burden of proof shift, topic switching, debating fallacies.

Hopefully Ron will keep them in line, and keep it fair...good luck.

TAM
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Old 7th July 2009, 10:23 AM   #29
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If you need any help on structural specific topics, I'm available.
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Old 7th July 2009, 11:05 AM   #30
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Oh cant wait!
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Old 7th July 2009, 11:23 AM   #31
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This should be interesting....I enjoyed your two previous hardfire debates...free of any math or engineering errors as I remember......

Most online debates I have watched/listened to have the truthers on the losing end in a big way.

This will likely be another debate showing the complete lack of evidence for the truthers. I look forward to watching the slaughter.....
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Old 7th July 2009, 11:47 AM   #32
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Tony Szamboti, Kevin Barrett and other 9/11 nutbars

Kevin Barrett, close associate of leaders of 9/11 truth, including Tony Szamboti, calls for the execution of 'anybody who has drawn a paycheck from the major mainstream media'

He also alleged that no Israelis were killed in the WTC collapses (untrue), playing up the 'Jews did it' part of 9/11 'truth' doctrine.
From ScrewLooseChange http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com...execution.html

Kevin Barrett
I think that anybody who has drawn a paycheck from the major mainstream journalistic outlets in the past should be up on the scaffold for the crimes of high treason and crimes against humanity.
from We the People Radio Network

Barrett also accuses Senator John McCain of 'treason and complicity in mass murder'. McCain's crime? - writing the preface to Popular Mechanics book debunking 9/11 Myths.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...61.html?page=3
'Having John McCain as the man writing the preface [to the Popular Mechanics book] means he should not be allowed to have any public event without being repeatedly called on his treason and complicity in mass murder, and crimes against humanity.'

and on the Jewish conspiracy

'April 17, 2008:

One of the "very good" things about 9/11, from an Israeli perspective, was the miracle of the Twin Towers. Somehow all the Israelis just didn't happen to be there that day. The vile rumor that "no Jews died in the Towers" was probably spread by Mossad as a pre-emptive strike against people noticing that no ISRAELIS died in the Towers. This is what Ahmadinejad should be harping on!

It is an amazing fact that citizens of more than 100 nations died in the Twin Towers, but not a single Israeli was killed, despite the well-known heavy presence of Israelis in the World Trade Center. China lost 20 people, Columbia lost 18, the Dominican Republic lost 25, India lost 34, Ecuador and Italy both lost 13, the Phillipines lost 16, Japan and Jamaica both lost 21, Trinidad and Tobago lost 15, the UK lost 68, and indeed the majority of nations on earth lost people in the World Trade Center... and Israel lost exactly ZERO, zilch, nada... While the USA lost 2,464 people. '

http://arabesque911.blogspot.com/200...e-israeli.html




Tony Szamboti had a long conversation with Kevin Barrett on Barrett's show, October 30, 2007. Mr. Szamboti discussed his belief in pyroclastic flows from WTC 1, 2 and 7, as well as evidence of explosives every 3 floors. I haven't listened to the entire interview yet, but thought it was interesting that Mr. Szamboti is so closely associated with a person like Barrett.
It should be noted that a similar relationship exists between Barrett and Dr. Steven Jones. An even more intimate part of this matrix of 9/11 truthers involves Jim Fetzer, who is a close colleague of Barrett, and is also batpoop crazy.(no planer etc..)

http://www.bomb-mp3.com/download.php...+Rolf+Lindgren
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Old 7th July 2009, 11:55 AM   #33
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I should point out that one of my criticisms toward Tony Szamboti is not just that he's looking at the physics of the WTC collapses - there's nothing wrong with this in itself.

It's his role in supporting the paranoid delusions of 9/11 truth, and the impact of these delusions:

1) Prominent leaders of the 9/11 'truth' movement are still implicating Israel, Mossad, and Jewish leaders in the planning and actual execution of the 9/11 terror attacks. This greatly increases the danger of 9/11 truth cultists attacking Jewish targets, as we have seen with James Von Brunn and the Holocaust museum.

2) Tony's participation in forums such as Barrett's lends support and credence to Barrett's attacks on prominent American (war hero, no less) John McCain and Barrett's obvious bloodlust for the mass media.
This is dangerous stuff, when broadcast to vulnerable and gullible listeners.

3)Tony's complete denial that the 9/11 hijackers were independent of the US government, instead trying to argue that the plane impacts were part of a smokescreen in the US government-led mass murder plot.
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Heiwa - 'Anyone suggesting that part C structure can one-way crush down part A structure is complicit to mass murder!'
000063 - 'Problem with the Truthers' theories is that anyone with enough power to pull it off doesn't need to in the first place.'
mrkinnies 'I'm not a no-planer' 'I don't believe Flight 77 hit the Pentagon'
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Old 7th July 2009, 01:47 PM   #34
TruthersLie
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Ryan.

I would prefer not to have a massive seizure while trying to watch you school those fools. Please, solid colors.
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Old 7th July 2009, 02:17 PM   #35
KJC
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Expect Tony Szambozi to make a big deal about the "missing jolt" and the collapse initiating ABOVE the impact point of the planes (especially the 98th floor of the WTC1). He claims the bowing effect was not due to sagging floor trusses but something to do with the core columns.

What else.. He likes to talk about how the steel wasn't inspected. He once mentioned that thermite would have been used to weaken the joints and not used laterally on steel columns. He is a big fan of the red/grey paint chips.
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Old 7th July 2009, 02:38 PM   #36
alienentity
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Here's some recent statements by Tony
'Deceleration of the impacting object beyond the rate of gravity and a velocity loss would prove a dynamic load took place. Otherwise the load can only be considered static.'

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...26#post4875026

'If the collapse had been a natural event, the amount of energy loss which would have been incurred by the upper block, to just deform and buckle the columns on just the first floors on either side of the first collision, would have been about 87% of it's kinetic energy just prior to impact. That translates to a 75% velocity loss, so it wouldn't have been some undiscernable velocity loss we were looking for. If an impact capable of delivering the required energy had occurred, at a minimum, the upper block would have slowed from about 23 feet/second to about 5.5 feet/second and the video resolution and frame rate of 30 frames per second was more than up to that task.'

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...68#post4875068

'In the case of an impact dynamic load or shock load it causes amplification of the static load due to rapid deceleration of the impacting object. The reality is that to defeat the reserve strength of the columns by the statically insufficient load of the upper block there needed to be a large dynamic load.

The general argument here is that the impacts occurred gradually and no large jolt was noticed. The problem with this is that the energy of deformation does not change and even separate impacts would still cause an aggregate energy drain from the upper block with a resultant velocity loss, which isn't observed.'

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...64#post4873064

'We don't know exactly what happened to the columns and connections in the fire affected areas as the city of New York did not save the steel for investigators.'

Regarding explosives:

'As for lower noise level explosives being possible, the brisance and gas pressure of nanothermites used as explosives are tailorable by the sizing of the particles and the amount of organics used to generate gas pressure. Finally, it is the gas pressure velocity and it's range which causes the sound levels and the distance it travels.

A report from The 221st National Meeting of the American Chemical Society held during April 2001 in San Diego made the below comment:

At this point in time, all of the military services and some DOE and academic laboratories have active R&D programs aimed at exploiting the unique properties of nanomaterials that have potential to be used in energetic formulations for advanced explosives. Nanoenergetics hold promise as useful ingredients for the thermobaric (TBX) and TBX-like weapons, particularly due to their high degree of tailorability with regards to energy release and impulse management. The feature of “impulse management” may be significant. It is possible that formulations may be chosen to have just sufficient percussive effect to achieve the desired fragmentation while minimizing the noise level'
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...14#post4870414

'I believe that some type of explosive charge was used every third floor to break the welds of the outer core columns, after the collapse was underway for a few floors. As they were inside the tower, any blast from the charges would not be visible, and the debris falling outside would mask any escaping ejections and the collapse itself would mask the noise. I don't think much would have to be done to the perimeter columns except to separate the orthogonal walls at the corners every 10 to 20 floors. This could have been done by attacking the spandrel splices at the corners, allowing the perimeter walls to petal outward.'

'I do think artificial heat weakening was used to initiate the collapses. This heat weakening could have been used to weaken the joints of the structure. It would not have to mean cutting the columns with thermite. I am inclined to believe that the temperatures from this heat weakening were much higher than what fire could produce and that is why little to no steel evidence was saved from the fire affected areas for analysis.

In essence, I think the demolition was achieved by attacking joints with heat generating mechanisms and explosive charges rather than cutting columns.'

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...61#post4871961
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Heiwa - 'Anyone suggesting that part C structure can one-way crush down part A structure is complicit to mass murder!'
000063 - 'Problem with the Truthers' theories is that anyone with enough power to pull it off doesn't need to in the first place.'
mrkinnies 'I'm not a no-planer' 'I don't believe Flight 77 hit the Pentagon'
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Old 7th July 2009, 08:27 PM   #37
R.Mackey
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Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
It's his role in supporting the paranoid delusions of 9/11 truth, and the impact of these delusions:
I'm going to try to keep this scientific and above board, rather than bludgeon Tony over his associations or the statements of others. However, I note with some amusement that David Chandler apparently is planning to present some kind of preamble where he impugns Ron's impartiality -- an interesting trick, since Ron never claimed to be impartial in the first place... If they go negative, I'm sure they'll come off the worse for it.

Also, interestingly, nobody seems to care about David Chandler so far, everyone seems more interested in Tony.

Originally Posted by TruthersLie View Post
I would prefer not to have a massive seizure while trying to watch you school those fools. Please, solid colors.
You do realize, the more you all whine, the more fun I can have antagonizing you, right?

Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I can't quite work out from your o/p whether you will or will not be specifically debating their pet theories, or whether it will be freestyle.
My feeling is it will gravitate to their own pet... observations (I doubt either one has anything approaching an actual "theory"). This is somewhat frustrating to me. I'd rather tackle a problem instead of going after personal beliefs, much as I'd prefer not to personalize the discussion. However, since there are no sane Truth Movement hypotheses to be found (Judy Wood's magic hurricane beam concentrator and Jim Hoffman's thousand tons of thermite ceiling tiles do not qualify as "sane"), the discussion will inevitably devolve onto one or two lone ideas and their proponents.

There just isn't any consensus in the Truth Movement. Nothing approaching the scientific solidarity regarding September 11th, anyway. So one either tackles isolated beliefs, or else one goes home having never sighted the opposition. Not my fault they're so disorganized.

Originally Posted by Bad_Doggie View Post
However, I do have a concern. In that by debating them that you give them a platform to promote their AGENDA, which to most of us has nothing to do with the truth or the lessons that can be learnt from these events. Someone of your stature debating them gives them recognition and validity that they crave.
This is a valid concern as far as it goes, but I don't think I lend all that much "legitimacy" to them. Unless you move in the circles of scenario paintball, September 11th kookery, artificial intelligence, or prognostics, you're not likely to have heard of me. I in no way represent the government or any political body, nor am I much of a celebrity.

I also am not concerned simply because, as observed elsewhere, there are no "fence sitters" left anywhere. The worst that possibly comes out of this is I get quote-mined on obscure and irrelevant message boards (much like the jackals are currently heckling Dr. Greening about "Newton's 3rd Law doesn't apply," when in fact he believes no such nonsense, of course). It just isn't going to make that much difference.

On the other hand, I may be able to reach a few of those in the Truth Movement. Or provide some education for others who are merely interested in science.

Or it may be a complete waste of time. I'd lay odds on this one, but one never knows. In any case, apart from my time, I really don't have much skin in the game. It's an opportunity, one without much downside from my perspective.
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Old 8th July 2009, 03:58 AM   #38
T.A.M.
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ummm...Since Ron and his producer control the show, why would Chandler even attempt such a thing. Though I think Ron too honest to remove it, they (Chandler et al) must know if they go overboard with the pre-debate grandstanding, that it could simply be edited out.

What a turd.

TAM

Edit: as for Chandler. Well why should anybody care about him. His claim to fame is a debunked "WTC7 is in Freefall" argument, and that is it.

Last edited by T.A.M.; 8th July 2009 at 04:00 AM.
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Old 8th July 2009, 04:05 AM   #39
JoeyDonuts
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Perhaps you'll debunk him right into a recursive loop where he says nothing but "Free Fall!" "Pyroclastic!" "Thermate!" "Bork!" "Progressive Collapse Arrest!" over and over again.

Wait a minute...
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EXIT STAGE LEFT! EXIT STAGE RIGHT! THERE IS NO PLACE TO RUN; ALL THE FUSES IN THE EXIT SIGNS HAVE BEEN BURNED OUT!
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Old 8th July 2009, 06:10 AM   #40
tfk
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And now a word from "Capt. Obvious"...
Try to make sure that they apportion speaking time "by side" (in which case you'd get 50%) and not "by person" (in which case you'd get 33%).

tom
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