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Old 21st July 2009, 02:49 AM   #401
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Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth View Post
Who is "we"?
9/11 investigator and his imaginary friends.
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Old 21st July 2009, 07:04 AM   #402
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
If you can get China and Japan to form an alliance on anything more substantial than a game of tiddlywinks, I will eat my hat.
Well, he included Iran in there as well, so he must be living in a fantasy land. Iranian people in general are embarrassed by their current tinpot's denial/revisionism claims. Some excuse his words and some others may buy into it, but the majority of Iranians don't deny the Holocaust (or suggest things like 9/11-I has been stating). That doesn't mean they're on good terms with Israel, but those problems seem to be more complicated than our friend here seems to understand. The same applies to China (natch), but for different reasons.
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Old 21st July 2009, 08:54 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth View Post
Who is "we"?
Him and the ghost of Hitlers past that live in his belly-button?

I dunno...
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Old 21st July 2009, 09:20 AM   #404
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Someone better tell the Germans to remove all the holocaust memorials I have seen over there and to stop admitting something they did not actually do.

Bigots are pond life.
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Old 21st July 2009, 10:01 AM   #405
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Originally Posted by UNLoVedRebel View Post
The Dutch and common sense.

Enigma's reference had nothing to do with geography.


Awesome, thanks.
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Old 21st July 2009, 10:50 AM   #406
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
Fine. Prove it.

You like watching television, don't you?
No, actually, you need to prove it didn't happen. The documents, testimony, eye-witnesses, scholars are all against you.

You tried to prove your case using Fred Leuchter.

They way it works is that if you are going to allege the sun rises in the west, the burden of proof is on you...and proof is more than poking holes in what (I assume one of your heros) Le Pen would call a detail of history. It is a big burden. It has to have enough weight to cause all of the documents, trials, witness statements, statistics, etc. into clear doubt.

Nothing you've shared or written even comes close.

The sun is still rising in the East.
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Old 21st July 2009, 12:18 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Actually, don't.

That book is a waste of time, since Buchanan seems hell-bent on blaming everything on the British and French while excusing both the German empire and Nazi Germany as much as possible.

He even argues that France and Great Britain should have ignored the German military expansions of the 1930's, and allowed Hitler to have his war with the Soviet Union without the worry of two fronts, believing that it would have saved millions of lives. The fact is that approx half of all military deaths (16 million out of ~30 million) of World War II, along with 1/4 of all civilian deaths (11 million out of 44 million, Holocaust not included) happened on the Eastern Front.

That's a total of 27 million people who were killed. And then one can start speculating what would have happened, especially if the Germans had advanced to the Urals and created the Lebensraum they so desperately wanted. How many more million deaths would THAT have taken? And how many more jews would have "mysteriously vanished"

ETA: What my grinds my gear the most, though, is that Buchanan claims that the Holocaust would not have happened if Great Britain and France had not declared war on Germany.
Agreed, "Churchill,Hitler And The UnNecessary War" is the biggest bunch of crapola on World War 2 between 2 covers since the last David Irving book.
I have a theory that since Buchanan shows a definent paths of going further and further in his whitewash of Nazi Germany that sooner or later he will embrace Holcaust Denial.
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Old 21st July 2009, 12:20 PM   #408
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
If you can get China and Japan to form an alliance on anything more substantial than a game of tiddlywinks, I will eat my hat.
ANd alot of countries in Europe have a great mistrust of Russia, come to think of it.
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Old 21st July 2009, 12:39 PM   #409
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Quote:
Churchill ended it all with his declaration of war on Germany.
From William Shirer's "Berlin Diary":

Quote:
-- "H'm" -- she [the wife of a German friend - Sk.] said to me -- "why did England declare war on us?"
-- "H'm" -- I replied -- "Why did you invade Poland?"
-- "H'm. But the English, they're human beings..."
-- "And perhaps the Poles are human beings too?"
-- "H'm", she said.

Last edited by Skeptic; 21st July 2009 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 21st July 2009, 12:57 PM   #410
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Agreed, "Churchill,Hitler And The UnNecessary War" is the biggest bunch of crapola on World War 2 between 2 covers since the last David Irving book.
I have a theory that since Buchanan shows a definent paths of going further and further in his whitewash of Nazi Germany that sooner or later he will embrace Holcaust Denial.

As a practicing Catholic, I don't think he can go quite that far, however he has shown a marked propensity to not let facts get in the way of his narative.
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Old 21st July 2009, 01:01 PM   #411
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Besides, I'll raise you Buchanan's specious book and challenge you to read Evan's three volumes on Nazism -- which leaves little doubt that not only was the war Hitler's, not only were the murder's Hitlers, but that Hitler lost the war very early on...and never recovered. That makes Hitler one dumb, murderous. genocidal ego-maniac (not to mention his appalling taste in art and building, music and facial hair).
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Old 21st July 2009, 01:03 PM   #412
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Originally Posted by headscratcher4 View Post
Besides, I'll raise you Buchanan's specious book and challenge you to read Evan's three volumes on Nazism -- which leaves little doubt that not only was the war Hitler's, not only were the murder's Hitlers, but that Hitler lost the war very early on...and never recovered. That makes Hitler one dumb, murderous. genocidal ego-maniac (not to mention his appalling taste in art and building, music and facial hair).
I think that's "Evans". Agree on everything else. Try also Kershaw's two-volume biography.
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Old 21st July 2009, 01:03 PM   #413
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Oh, and least we forget to add, biology and genetic science (the real stuff -- not the crypto crap the Nazi's favored) is pretty difinitive on the utter boobishness of Hitler's racial theories....
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Old 21st July 2009, 01:07 PM   #414
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
I think that's "Evans". Agree on everything else. Try also Kershaw's two-volume biography.
Thanks. Right you are. Richard J. Evans. One of the better histories I've read recently.

Kershaw's books were also extremely good and interesting.
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Old 21st July 2009, 01:14 PM   #415
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Kershaw brought out a one volume abridgement of his Hitler Biography last year, which is probably a better choice for the average reader.
Evans 3 Volumne History of the Third Reich will be the standard works for scholars, but is daunting to the average reader. I will not be surprised if he brings out a one volumn version also.
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Old 21st July 2009, 01:20 PM   #416
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Kershaw brought out a one volume abridgement of his Hitler Biography last year, which is probably a better choice for the average reader.
Evans 3 Volumne History of the Third Reich will be the standard works for scholars, but is daunting to the average reader. I will not be surprised if he brings out a one volumn version also.
I got something by Martin Kitchen at home. It was a good quick read to help oen understand the third reich.
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Old 21st July 2009, 01:24 PM   #417
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Kershaw brought out a one volume abridgement of his Hitler Biography last year, which is probably a better choice for the average reader.
Evans 3 Volumne History of the Third Reich will be the standard works for scholars, but is daunting to the average reader. I will not be surprised if he brings out a one volumn version also.
I wouldn't say "daunting" unless you are only refering to length. Evans is a very clear and accessible writer -- not to mention his impecable sourcing. I never thought any of his three volumes were slogs to get through...just time consuming.
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Old 21st July 2009, 03:16 PM   #418
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I suggest "The Nazis" by Laurence Rees.
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Old 21st July 2009, 03:29 PM   #419
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Originally Posted by headscratcher4 View Post
I wouldn't say "daunting" unless you are only refering to length. Evans is a very clear and accessible writer -- not to mention his impecable sourcing. I never thought any of his three volumes were slogs to get through...just time consuming.


I was referring to length. Evans is a brilliant writer,(which, let's face it, alot of very knowledgable historians are not) but a three volume history is pretty daunting to the average reader,no matter how clear and well written.
Which is why Although I consider Shelby Foote's 3 Vol.opus to be the best work on the American Civil War, I recommend McPherson's 1 Vol."Battle Cry Of Freedom" as the best single work on the Civil War for the casual reader.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 02:52 AM   #420
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One had to be very careful about biographies of Hitler in general. For obvious reasons, many people wrote "biographies" of his where the relationship to reality is between tenuous and nonexistent.

For example, there is Speer's popular "Inside the Third Reich", which always reminds me of "verbal" in The Usual Suspects -- he puts TONS of tiny little details in every chapter EXCEPT the ones that actually matter, e.g., his knowledge of the atrocities or his control of slave labor, which are given -- in the entire book -- at most a few paragraphs, much less than is given to, say, Hitler's table manners or Goering's love of luxury.

Another famous but worthless work is "The Life and Death of Adolf Hitler" by Payne, which has Hitler doing numerous things which he never did: faking art, being dirty with lice, engaging in sadomasochistic sex, going by the name of "Schikelgruber", visiting his half-brother in England, believing in astrology, sending a delegation to have a secret meeting behind the lines with the Soviets in 1943, etc.

An excellent review of such spurious biographies can be found in Waite's The Psychopathic God, in the chapter "A Note on Spurious Sources". For example, he notes that the stories of Hitler being a down-and-out bum in Vienna has some basis in fact, but in reality he was not nearly as "down and out" as he was often portrayed. This description of him, notes Waite, comes mainly from two lifelong bums and petty criminals who tried, during the 1930s, to cash in on the fact that they were living in Vienna boarding-houses at roughly the same time when Hitler was. Naturally, they invented numerous "spicy" details to sell their books -- fables that were later repeated in history books.

Some historians fell for these liars' descriptions of Hitler in Vienna since each of these "biographers" vouches for the accuracy of the other -- which, Waite notes, is "not unlike accepting mutual character testimonies from Uriah Heep and Seth Pecksniff".

Last edited by Skeptic; 22nd July 2009 at 02:56 AM.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 06:57 AM   #421
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Good job 9/11... but you'll not likely get far with these nitwits.

Mod WarningDo not use insults to argue your point. Please refer to the Membership Agreement if you need a refresher on the rules of this forum.
Posted By:Lisa Simpson

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Old 22nd July 2009, 07:27 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
translation?
In case anyone still cares (I really just want the practice...):

Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Which actually explains a lot. Essentially your whole "ignorante und somit relativ faktenfreie Lebenseinstellung".
This should be quite obvious to English speakers. It basically says that 9/11-investigator has an "ignorant and relatively fact free life attitude".

Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
Wieso sollen mich Meinungen interessieren von kleine Leute aus dritter Hand?
This one is a bit more complex, and is basically saying "why should I care about the third hand opinions of 'little people'".

I hope that helps a little. I'm not good with Dutch though...
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Old 22nd July 2009, 07:32 AM   #423
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I have always found "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" A very good overview. Although it is not specifically about Hitler, it gives a very good contextual big picture of what the Nazis were about
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Old 22nd July 2009, 07:36 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
One had to be very careful about biographies of Hitler in general. For obvious reasons, many people wrote "biographies" of his where the relationship to reality is between tenuous and nonexistent.

For example, there is Speer's popular "Inside the Third Reich", which always reminds me of "verbal" in The Usual Suspects -- he puts TONS of tiny little details in every chapter EXCEPT the ones that actually matter, e.g., his knowledge of the atrocities or his control of slave labor, which are given -- in the entire book -- at most a few paragraphs, much less than is given to, say, Hitler's table manners or Goering's love of luxury.

Another famous but worthless work is "The Life and Death of Adolf Hitler" by Payne, which has Hitler doing numerous things which he never did: faking art, being dirty with lice, engaging in sadomasochistic sex, going by the name of "Schikelgruber", visiting his half-brother in England, believing in astrology, sending a delegation to have a secret meeting behind the lines with the Soviets in 1943, etc.

An excellent review of such spurious biographies can be found in Waite's The Psychopathic God, in the chapter "A Note on Spurious Sources". For example, he notes that the stories of Hitler being a down-and-out bum in Vienna has some basis in fact, but in reality he was not nearly as "down and out" as he was often portrayed. This description of him, notes Waite, comes mainly from two lifelong bums and petty criminals who tried, during the 1930s, to cash in on the fact that they were living in Vienna boarding-houses at roughly the same time when Hitler was. Naturally, they invented numerous "spicy" details to sell their books -- fables that were later repeated in history books.

Some historians fell for these liars' descriptions of Hitler in Vienna since each of these "biographers" vouches for the accuracy of the other -- which, Waite notes, is "not unlike accepting mutual character testimonies from Uriah Heep and Seth Pecksniff".
As to Speer, Sereny's "Albert Speer: His Battle With Truth" is brilliantly devastating to his credibility... and leads to the pretty geneal agreement by most scholars today that he lied and lied about just about everything...from his presense for Himmiler's Posnan speech to his direct knowledge and utilization of forces slave labor in the arms industry, as well as his direct knowledge of the work conditions.

Evans also was quite unimpressed with Speer's veracity. Surprise, surprise.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 08:49 AM   #425
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Before this thread turns into a total train wreck, allow me to be the first (next?) to say: "I for one, welcome our jewish overlords... and ladies."



(That's Noa Tishby, in case any of you open minded types were wondering.)
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Old 22nd July 2009, 08:50 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
This should be quite obvious to English speakers. It basically says that 9/11-investigator has an "ignorant and relatively fact free life attitude".
A more elegant translation would be "ignorant and thus relatively fact-free mindset."

Quote:
This one is a bit more complex, and is basically saying "why should I care about the third hand opinions of 'little people'".
Two thumbs up! Let´s call it an A- overall.

It is such a rare pleasure to see good German from foreigners.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 09:52 AM   #427
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http://www.tabletmag.com/news-and-po...-denial-twist/

A most interesting article on two of the best known holocuast deniers....
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Old 22nd July 2009, 11:05 AM   #428
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Originally Posted by headscratcher4 View Post
http://www.tabletmag.com/news-and-po...-denial-twist/

A most interesting article on two of the best known holocuast deniers....
I find the following quote in part III of this story quite telling of the intellectual dishonesty that has taken place by the denier/revisionists in this thread in using both the IHR and Weber as sources, since Weber himself admits that earlier arguments of deniers/revisionists are likely not accurate:
Quote:
Sitting across from Mark Weber, formerly the leading light of American Holocaust revisionism, in his California office, I asked him the unavoidable question: did the gas chambers ever exist? “There may have been gas chambers,” he said. But he wanted to make a larger point about the war and historical memory: “It would be astonishing if a historical chapter as big as the Holocaust weren’t subject to some exaggeration. The same is true of Stalin—how many people did he kill? Estimates vary. Now the idea that the Holocaust is free of this kind of exaggeration is almost impossible.”

From there, Weber segued to the discussion he hopes to have more of, since he now is willing to concede—to use his words—“the immense catastrophe in which millions of European Jews died during World War II.” Today, Weber is much more interested in Jewish-Zionist power, which of course, he says, is what allows that Jewish suffering to be exaggerated.
It's clear that the goalposts, they are still moving.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 11:50 AM   #429
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
9/11 investigator and his imaginary friends.
Your words. I do not have friends here. I rather keep it that way.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 11:54 AM   #430
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Originally Posted by headscratcher4 View Post
Thanks. Right you are. Richard J. Evans. One of the better histories I've read recently.

Kershaw's books were also extremely good and interesting.
Both court historians, both paid by the institution that got its prestige from their own explanation of history, the British state.

Some interpretations of history are more profitable than others:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Legal/Penguin/e.../payments.html

Evans received 70,000 GBP for his testimony.

Irving, one of the last true remaining heroes of the West, was sentenced to 3 years of jail.

That's the difference. As long as this situation remains we cannot hope that a more realistic view on WW2 and the 'holocaust' will prevail.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 11:55 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by JohnRolls View Post
Good job 9/11... but you'll not likely get far with these nitwits.
Really? In your second post here you call the folks here "nitwits"? Really?

Please explain why people participating in this thread are nitwits.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 11:59 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by GreNME View Post
I find the following quote in part III of this story quite telling of the intellectual dishonesty that has taken place by the denier/revisionists in this thread in using both the IHR and Weber as sources, since Weber himself admits that earlier arguments of deniers/revisionists are likely not accurate:


It's clear that the goalposts, they are still moving.
Weber is tired.

He wants to be 'respected'. He wants a job, a good income, respect. He is tired of the holocaust.

Weber cannot prove that there were gas chambers:

I asked him the unavoidable question: did the gas chambers ever exist? “There may have been gas chambers,” he said.

There may have, there may not have, indeed.

But as it is the forensic data does not lead any such conclusion.

Keep looking for us.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 12:07 PM   #433
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Originally Posted by headscratcher4 View Post
http://www.tabletmag.com/news-and-po...-denial-twist/

A most interesting article on two of the best known holocuast deniers....
They may be the best known in the US but they certainly are not the most prominent. They are good at PR but they are not very productive. The most productive and intellectually profound are from Europe:

1. Germar Rudolf
2. Robert Faurisson
3. Carlo Mattogno
4. David Irving

Those are the ones that paid for their convictions.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 12:09 PM   #434
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
Before this thread turns into a total train wreck, allow me to be the first (next?) to say: "I for one, welcome our jewish overlords... and ladies."

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...1667_large.jpg

(That's Noa Tishby, in case any of you open minded types were wondering.)
If this thread were to turn into a 'train wreck' it will be because of your sabotage efforts.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 12:23 PM   #435
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Originally Posted by headscratcher4 View Post
(not to mention his appalling taste in art and building, music.
Are you sure that your judgment is not troubled by your intense desire to place yourself on the 'good side'?

It's rather simple to refute your silly notions.

http://www.hitler.org/art/

Mind you, Hitler painted this himself!

One of my favorite's:

http://www.hitler.org/art/buildings/building5.jpg
http://www.hitler.org/art/buildings/building4.jpg

Not world class, but nevertheless, not bad at all.

But appreciating this makes me a Nazi, doesn't it, oh dweller of the Disney Universe of the Good and the Bad.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 12:30 PM   #436
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Originally Posted by GreNME View Post
I find the following quote in part III of this story quite telling of the intellectual dishonesty that has taken place by the denier/revisionists in this thread in using both the IHR and Weber as sources, since Weber himself admits that earlier arguments of deniers/revisionists are likely not accurate:


It's clear that the goalposts, they are still moving.
For people who do not know Weber here is a classic radio show where Weber is interviewed about the holocaust by a (Jewish) talk show host:

http://www.ihraudio.dreamhost.com/re..._kfi_am640.mp3

Representatives of the Wiesenthal center were also invited but they chickened out at the last moment. They know that they don't have a chance in hell.

From the IHR audio site:

With its 24-hour 50,000-watt signal, and enormous listening audience in the Los Angeles metropolitan area, KFI is easily the biggest talk-radio station on the west coast. And Ted O'Keefe and Mark Weber were scheduled for a live in-studio debate with Aaron Breitbart, senior researcher from the Los Angeles-based Simon Wiesenthal Center. Breitbart chickened out at the last minute, so for over 2 hours — from 7:30 PM until 10:00 PM — on the evening of December 17, 1990, roughly a million KFI listeners from as far away as Oregon and Texas got an unforgettable dose of history in accord with the facts. This is probably the most effective case for Holocaust revisionism ever carried over the airwaves.


A very good introduction!
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Old 22nd July 2009, 12:32 PM   #437
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
Are you sure that your judgment is not troubled by your intense desire to place yourself on the 'good side'?

It's rather simple to refute your silly notions.

http://www.hitler.org/art/

Mind you, Hitler painted this himself!
YOU do know the difference between his TASTE in art (which was bad) and the art that HE created (which by far are really good, even his caricatures). One can be a good artist, but have atrocious taste IN OTHER people's art creations
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Old 22nd July 2009, 12:33 PM   #438
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Originally Posted by JohnRolls View Post
Good job 9/11... but you'll not likely get far with these nitwits.
That's not my purpose. Purpose is to record the responses and learn from them how to effectively fight back.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 12:35 PM   #439
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Originally Posted by Arus808 View Post
YOU do know the difference between his TASTE in art (which was bad) and the art that HE created (which by far are really good, even his caricatures). One can be a good artist, but have atrocious taste IN OTHER people's art creations
No you can't.

Give me examples of his 'atrocious taste'.

Arnold Breker? Wagner?
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Old 22nd July 2009, 12:37 PM   #440
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
For people who do not know Weber here is a classic radio show where Weber is interviewed about the holocaust by a (Jewish) talk show host:

http://www.ihraudio.dreamhost.com/re..._kfi_am640.mp3

Representatives of the Wiesenthal center were also invited but they chickened out at the last moment. They know that they don't have a chance in hell.

From the IHR audio site:

With its 24-hour 50,000-watt signal, and enormous listening audience in the Los Angeles metropolitan area, KFI is easily the biggest talk-radio station on the west coast. And Ted O'Keefe and Mark Weber were scheduled for a live in-studio debate with Aaron Breitbart, senior researcher from the Los Angeles-based Simon Wiesenthal Center. Breitbart chickened out at the last minute, so for over 2 hours — from 7:30 PM until 10:00 PM — on the evening of December 17, 1990, roughly a million KFI listeners from as far away as Oregon and Texas got an unforgettable dose of history in accord with the facts. This is probably the most effective case for Holocaust revisionism ever carried over the airwaves.


A very good introduction!
And kudos to a sympathetic Jewish host.
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