ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags holocaust denial

Closed Thread
Old 17th August 2009, 02:24 PM   #1
Budly
Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 148
Holocaust Denial Videos

I am a holocaust denier, but open to your view.

There are numerous holocaust denial videos found at:
holocaustdenialvideos.com

I'm most interested in what people think about the video "One Third Of The Holocaust" found there but feel free to discuss the other holocaust denial videos also.

I am asking if anyone here can watch some episodes of one of the videos and state specifically that they don't agree with in a specific episode. I request the following guidelines:

1) Discuss a specific episode of a specific video. The videos are all broken up into episodes. Don't change subject to another holocaust topic, which the videos don't cover. For instance the comment "what about the millions who saw it happen?" would be breaking this guideline, since the videos don't cover that and it thus changes the topic.

2) Don't focus on how it is or hateful to be a denier. Rather, state specifically what you don't agree with (or agree with) in a specific episode of a specific video at holocaust denial videos dot com.

Sorry to put "specific" in bold but you wouldn't believe how hard it is to get people to do this. We'll see if anyone can do it here.

Last edited by Budly; 17th August 2009 at 02:31 PM. Reason: grammar
Budly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 03:23 PM   #2
Arus808
Philosopher
 
Arus808's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,204
Sorry, but this is not how things work here. We help those who have specific questions on theories they want to have explained to them; dont expect us to spend our time to watch a bunch of videos and have US present you with questions.

YOU pick a video that you have a specific issue with (or you agree with) and then ask what our thoughts on that video is, or if a specific claim in the video is something you want an opposing view on, then point that out in a discussion thread.

But for now read these sites:
http://www.nizkor.org/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.net/
http://www.adl.org/holocaust/introduction.asp
__________________
Back home with a new sunburn...I look like a tomato.

“Life may begin at 30, but it doesn’t get real interesting until about 150.”
“Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle.”

Last edited by Arus808; 17th August 2009 at 03:26 PM.
Arus808 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 03:40 PM   #3
Chaos
Penultimate Amazing
 
Chaos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,519
Originally Posted by Budly View Post
I am a holocaust denier, but open to your view.
In my experience, the one thing any Holocaust Denier is not is "open to your views".

All right, then, you tell us exactly what happened to the millions of Jews which you claim the Nazis did not murder. The Nazis made these Jews disappear, so it is the responsibility of the Nazis and their defenders to prove whatever else supposedly happened to them, other than being murdered by the Nazis.
Chaos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 04:48 PM   #4
Budly
Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 148
Hi Arus808: O.K. I'll pick a video for you and an episode: Episode 1 of the video "One Third Of The Holocaust." Here is a specific question for you: Do you think Yankel Wiernik is a credible Treblinka eyewitness?

Hi Chaos: The first thing you did was break my guideline #1.

My 2 guidelines are quite reasonable.

I think that first episode is only 10 minutes long.

Last edited by Budly; 17th August 2009 at 04:52 PM. Reason: clarity
Budly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 04:51 PM   #5
Thunder
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,918
why don't you tell us where the 6 million missing Jews went.

and there are....around 6 million missing Jews. all relevant census data before and after WW2 confirms this.

so where they at?
Thunder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 04:54 PM   #6
Budly
Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 148
Hi Parky76: You broke Guideline #1.

My guidelines are reasonable.

Last edited by Budly; 17th August 2009 at 04:57 PM.
Budly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 04:58 PM   #7
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 16,743
Originally Posted by Budly View Post
Hi Arus808: O.K. I'll pick a video for you and an episode: Episode 1 of the video "One Third Of The Holocaust." Here is a specific question for you: Do you think Yankel Wiernik is a credible Treblinka eyewitness?
Covered adequately here.

Incidentally, Budly, are you the creator of this film, One Third of the Holocaust?
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 05:05 PM   #8
Thunder
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,918
Originally Posted by Budly View Post
Hi Parky76: You broke Guideline #1.

My guidelines are reasonable.
I.....don't....care.

Thunder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 05:25 PM   #9
The Fool
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 13,231
Budly

you are a holocaust denier? What does that mean exactly? Does it mean you have your own version of history and it is correct unlike the "mainstream" version of history that is all wrong? Thats cool. What about the black plague? not interested in denying that too? Maybe WW1. (that was the war before ww2). did that happen? are you sure?? reeeeeely sure? What day is it tomorrow? Maybe it won't be the day you expect.....

You also have some "guidelines" where you only want to discuss little narrow aspects of the issue.

well son, sorry but thats not the way it works especially when your initial proposition is so stupid and offensive.

you are a holocaust denier, I am a budly debier.

sorry son, you never happened. Welcome to irrelevance.
__________________
And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good.
Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?
R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance)

Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.
The Fool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 05:26 PM   #10
Budly
Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 148
Hi Brainster: Yes, that link you offered specifically discusses the first episode of the video "One Third of the Holocaust." Thank you. But that rebuttal begins with ad hominem attacks:

Quote:
Historiography as seen by an ignorant charlatan …
... and conveyed to even more ignorant troglodytes.
I think that’s a fitting title for the first clip of our Ugly Voice Bud’s video,
Those just seem like put-downs to me. Suppose somebody posts here who believes that Uri Geller can bend spoons. Do you give them a link that explains scientifically why it's a hoax or do you give them a link that calls Uri Geller an ignorant charlatan with an ugly voice bending spoons in front of ignorant trogolodytes?

Have you yourself watched episode 1? Do you think Yankel Wiernik is a credible witness?

Regarding who I am. I'd rather not discuss that, since it draws away from the topic of this discussion.

Last edited by Budly; 17th August 2009 at 05:42 PM. Reason: added Uri Geller example
Budly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 05:58 PM   #11
gtc
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,110
Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
What about the black plague?
Somewhat off topic but there are some academics who claim that the black death may not have been plague. John Kelly in his book 'The Great Mortality' is pretty scathing about their conclusions but doesn't question their academic approach to the topic. He aknowledges that the black plague was somewhat different to the plague we see today.

It shows that scientists can challenge accepted facts if they do so properly. Holocaust deniers often claim that challenging accepted facts is not allowed but this is because they don't usually do so properly.
gtc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 06:09 PM   #12
Bobert
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,126
Those damn money grubbing sneaky JOOOOOOOOS!!!!!!
Bobert is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 06:10 PM   #13
Bobert
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,126
Hey Budly let me guess....you believe 9-11 was an inside job
Bobert is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 06:18 PM   #14
Budly
Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 148
Hi GTC: Watch the first episode of "One Third of the Holocaust" and decide if you think challenging the facts is done properly there. I'd like to hear what you think.

Hi Bobert: You're breaking the reasonable guidelines I put down in my initial post.

Hi The Fool: You wrote that I "only want to discuss little narrow aspects of the issue." You can call it that, but if discussing an eyewitness (Yankel Wiernik) at one deathcamp (Treblinka) is a narrow aspect of an issue. So be it.
Budly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 06:26 PM   #15
A W Smith
Philosopher
 
A W Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,032
Budly

is there any evidence that would convince you that the Nazis systematically killed millions of Jews? What would it take to falsify your belief that the holocaust never happened? Or are those beliefs unfalsifiable?

Here's an interesting audio from The Holocaust History Project


http://www.holocaust-history.org/him...znan-large.mov

Auschwitz guards nightmares linger

Schroeder admits ordinary Germans' role

66 questions and answers about the Holocaust

http://tc.usc.edu/vhitc/(fu15lgm0lsfxthfmepp40gq4)/default.aspx




repost of my response to Holocaust denial
__________________
911 resource site by Mark Roberts
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home
Gravy: Christopher7; You are a Basking Shark in a sea of ignorance.
Galileo:The jury said I didn't have any mental defects or diseases, they declared me 100% sane. Has a jury ever declared you sane?
Don’t get me lol’n off my chesterfield dude.
A W Smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 06:30 PM   #16
Arus808
Philosopher
 
Arus808's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,204
Im sorry, Budly, but no real conversation can be had until you take the time (and it will take you SOMe major amount of time) to read over these sites:

But for now read these sites:
http://www.nizkor.org/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.net/
http://www.adl.org/holocaust/introduction.asp


Nizkor alone took me a couple months just to get through. Seeing that you responded so quickly, its obvious that you didn't bother to read the above websites.

Please do so. And when you have, then come back if you have a specific question
__________________
Back home with a new sunburn...I look like a tomato.

“Life may begin at 30, but it doesn’t get real interesting until about 150.”
“Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle.”
Arus808 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 06:31 PM   #17
Arus808
Philosopher
 
Arus808's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,204
Originally Posted by Budly View Post
Hi Brainster: Yes, that link you offered specifically discusses the first episode of the video "One Third of the Holocaust." Thank you. But that rebuttal begins with ad hominem attacks:

Have you yourself watched episode 1? Do you think Yankel Wiernik is a credible witness?

Regarding who I am. I'd rather not discuss that, since it draws away from the topic of this discussion.
so the opening to a page, where the REST is supported by evidence will go wholly ignored by you?

Yeah, you really want to engage in some debate here.
__________________
Back home with a new sunburn...I look like a tomato.

“Life may begin at 30, but it doesn’t get real interesting until about 150.”
“Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle.”
Arus808 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 06:50 PM   #18
fullflavormenthol
Master Poster
 
fullflavormenthol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,415
The guidelines are not reasonable, if these episodes are part of a greater whole than that greater whole is up for discussion; and if that greater whole is discussing the Holocaust, than the whole of Holocaust research is legitimate to bring into the discussion.

The above sentence is broken up into segments (episodes), if you want to disagree than do so be citing something specific about a specific segment.

Of course that is silly, and I wouldn't expect anyone to follow it. That being said I am not going to follow your guidelines, and I will be discussing the subject matter with the other people on this thread.
fullflavormenthol is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 07:55 PM   #19
Sword_Of_Truth
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 11,494
Originally Posted by Budly View Post
I am a holocaust denier...
What do you have against the jewish people?
Sword_Of_Truth is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 07:57 PM   #20
Budly
Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 148
Hi A.W. Smith

You broke Guideline #1.
Budly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 08:02 PM   #21
A W Smith
Philosopher
 
A W Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,032
Originally Posted by Budly View Post
Hi A.W. Smith

You broke Guideline #1.

too bad. You do not make the rules here. And you broke forum rules by not commenting but merely linking to a video and asking for us to comment on it. that's spamming. You play by our rules here.

you want to discuss videos? then discuss this one

NOW
http://www.holocaust-history.org/him...znan-large.mov
__________________
911 resource site by Mark Roberts
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home
Gravy: Christopher7; You are a Basking Shark in a sea of ignorance.
Galileo:The jury said I didn't have any mental defects or diseases, they declared me 100% sane. Has a jury ever declared you sane?
Don’t get me lol’n off my chesterfield dude.

Last edited by A W Smith; 17th August 2009 at 08:05 PM.
A W Smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 08:03 PM   #22
Budly
Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 148
Hi Arus808: I'm familiar with all those sites. But only one of those 4 sites specifically discusses the videos. NIZKOR, for instance, doesn't discuss the videos. You wrote
Quote:
YOU pick a video that you have a specific issue with (or you agree with) and then ask what our thoughts on that video is, or if a specific claim in the video is something you want an opposing view on, then point that out in a discussion thread.
I obliged but you're dodging what I picked and what I asked.

Edited by Tricky:  Name edited to correct spelling of member name.

Last edited by Tricky; 18th August 2009 at 05:39 AM. Reason: Correct members name
Budly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 08:07 PM   #23
Arus808
Philosopher
 
Arus808's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,204
Originally Posted by Budly View Post
Hi A.W. Smith

You broke Guideline #1.

Sorry, but no "rules" were established and agreed to. We dont play games here, especially with a subject like the Holocaust.

Instead of replying about who broke some unagreed set of rules, why haven't you bothered to read these sites:

http://www.nizkor.org/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.net/
http://www.adl.org/holocaust/introduction.asp



They will take YOU MONTHS to go through.
__________________
Back home with a new sunburn...I look like a tomato.

“Life may begin at 30, but it doesn’t get real interesting until about 150.”
“Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle.”
Arus808 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 08:07 PM   #24
Budly
Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 148
Hi FullFlavorMenthol:

The Guidelines are reasonable. If episode 2 of the video "One Third of the Holocaust" is titled "water well." And it's 3 minutes long and about a water well at Treblinka, then I think it's reasonable to discuss that, and not bring up Auschwitz, for instance.
Budly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 08:15 PM   #25
Budly
Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 148
Hi A.W. Smith

I broke forum rules by asking what you think about a video? And your response is to post a video about the Poznan speech which has nothing to do with any video at holocaust denial videos dot com? How hard is it to watch some of the videos there yourself and offer an opinion? I think Yankel Wiernik is a fraud. He's the subject of episode 1 of the video "One Third of the Holocaust." What do you think?
Budly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 08:21 PM   #26
A W Smith
Philosopher
 
A W Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,032
Originally Posted by Budly View Post
Hi A.W. Smith

I broke forum rules by asking what you think about a video? And your response is to post a video about the Poznan speech which has nothing to do with any video at holocaust denial videos dot com? How hard is it to watch some of the videos there yourself and offer an opinion? I think Yankel Wiernik is a fraud. He's the subject of episode 1 of the video "One Third of the Holocaust." What do you think?
i think you have been exposed Bud
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...norant_03.html

this is your page and this is your "manifesto" Bud


I advocate kindness and good vibes toward all Jewish people. I like black people and people of all races, nationalities, religions; and I like gay people. It goes without saying but due to the stigma associated with holocaust denial, it needs to be said. I feel that it was Hitler's belief in military solutions that was primarily responsible for the European disaster that was World War II. I just believe the holocaust is a hoax. Today it is the holocaust myth that props up militarism. Here's why:
Of the many terrible things about World War II, the single worst thing wasn't the holocaust, because that's a myth. The worst thing was German soldiers fighting Soviet soldiers because millions of young men on both sides died horrible deaths. That war was started by Hitler and, rather than the crude concept of "fighting communism," it galvanized Stalin's power and made void the internal workings within the USSR that might have deposed him. The young men put between Stalin and Hitler and being conscripted to fight, was the worst thing about WWII. And the lesson from that is militarism and military solutions are always a disaster. That lesson is obscured when the worst thing about World War II is considered to be the holocaust because then the opposite conclusion is drawn: militarism seems good. Righteous militarism to defeat Hitler. Fighting intolerance. Americans largely see World War II as the "good fight" against Evil. The holocaust myth props up that assertion and obscures the truth: World War II was a European disaster.
The holocaust myth gives a "fighting for tolerance" theme to World War II, and the "fighting for tolerance" theme continues to justify military aggression up to recent times: it was used to justify the US invasion of Serbia/Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq. The wrong conclusions about World War II based on the false information that is the holocaust, reverberate into militaristic solutions creating disasters today.
Because the holocaust myth was never exposed, the masses never lost their gullibility and are easily manipulated for pro-war purposes. Here's an example: before the 2003 invasion of Iraq, not only did most Americans believe Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, many also believed he had killed millions of his own people.
The good/evil narrative of WWII is a blur with the good/evil narrative of so many bad movies, t.v. shows, and reportage. Things become more and more like the movie Idiocracy, and fitting that the ending of that movie involves a dumbed-down explanation of World War II. In reality people aren't really "evil" --there's just the challenge of understanding why people do what they do. The holocaust myth holds up the conception of Evil itself.
Christianity is a proud and interesting cultural heritage. But as a present-day belief system it can hold people back intellectually and culturally. A fundamental of Christianity is it's dumb portrayal of evil. But consider the possibility that a modern dumb portrayal of evil is the holocaust. So like Christianity, could the holocaust also hold people back intellectually and culturally? A fundamental of both being a worldview of good and evil? And could this hold society back, ping pong-ing, or reinforced with, media capitalism? We see news reporting and television shows, movies promoting righteous violence to take on "evil people." On a global level the "evil people" are often resistant to capitalism like North Korea; or resistant to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians (Iraq, Taliban, Al-Qaeda) Again the movie Idiocracy comes to mind when it had a stadium sports-like media spectacle of the USA using overwhelming force on it's enemies. The stadium spectators playing electric guitars while monster trucks ran over the enemies.
Not to mention that the false postulate that is the holocaust is the cornerstone of European Jewish colonialism in Israel and all the problems which have come from it. Iran's Ahmadinejad is right about that. We have the horrible bookends of European Colonialism: European Christian colonialism (The Crusades) 850 years ago, and European Jewish colonialism (Zionism) from the early 1900's till today. These bookends of colonialism had European laws associated with them: Heresy then, and denying the holocaust today. The laws keep people from debunking the intellectual/emotional basis of the colonialism, of the militarism of the colonizers.
In Germany the myth has ridiculously warped the general personality of the people. But it's not just Germany: The longer European and American intellectual thought has in it's foundation this false postulate that is the holocaust, the weirder and dumber things are going to get.
It's time to move beyond the myth.



and this again is my answer to your "manifesto"
Quote:
Originally Posted by kageki
- Not exclusive to Jews. Final Solution seems to be about deportation.
- No extermination camps. They were labor camps.

Not much labor going on here, Are they waiting for the deportation bus?
Quote:


- Mass killings did occur, but again no Nazi death factories.
- No gas chambers. No ovens.


Sure looks like a death factory to me, Why such huge chimneys for such a small factory building? Whatever they "made' sure didn't take up much floor space but sure produced an awful lot of smoke. The rear of this building is where they had to "shower up" before starting production for the day

Quote:
No burning pits.


Must have been the morning fog then, wake up. wake up Juden. Time to go to work.
Quote:
- Not 6 million.
Well then where did they vanish to then? lemme guess. Miami?

To summaries. I don't even think hell has a place for such cretins as holocaust deniers. Even that is too good for them. Thankfully nature and the human species through selection discards such freaks and they are forced to live a life of ignorance. Ostracized by society, they hide in their caverns of blatent stupidity to die off with a whimper. Blaming their failure and shortcomings in life on those who are more adept to compete in society.


__________________
911 resource site by Mark Roberts
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home
Gravy: Christopher7; You are a Basking Shark in a sea of ignorance.
Galileo:The jury said I didn't have any mental defects or diseases, they declared me 100% sane. Has a jury ever declared you sane?
Don’t get me lol’n off my chesterfield dude.

Last edited by A W Smith; 17th August 2009 at 08:26 PM.
A W Smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 08:22 PM   #27
fullflavormenthol
Master Poster
 
fullflavormenthol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,415
Originally Posted by Budly View Post
Hi FullFlavorMenthol:

The Guidelines are reasonable. If episode 2 of the video "One Third of the Holocaust" is titled "water well." And it's 3 minutes long and about a water well at Treblinka, then I think it's reasonable to discuss that, and not bring up Auschwitz, for instance.
Oh...so basically you want to use a bias video alone to argue against the reality of the Holocaust and forbid any contradictory evidence?

Also you violated my completely legitimate rules as to arguing with my point.

This is like me going into the Science forum and demanding a debate on creationism, and only allowing a discussion on the first chapter of genesis without allowing any other sources to be used.

Why don't you present an argument, in your own words here, and allow people to debate it? What are you afraid of?

Last edited by fullflavormenthol; 17th August 2009 at 08:25 PM.
fullflavormenthol is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 08:25 PM   #28
Budly
Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 148
Hi Arus808,

This isn't a general discussion of "holocaust denial." I think my initial post made it pretty clear that I'd like people here to watch some short episodes of a video and offer an opinion. You can't seem to do that, and instead offer a bunch of links, most of which don't mention the videos at holocaust denial videos dot com.

Edited by Tricky:  Name edited to correct spelling of member name.

Last edited by Tricky; 18th August 2009 at 05:40 AM. Reason: Correct spelling of member's name
Budly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 08:27 PM   #29
fullflavormenthol
Master Poster
 
fullflavormenthol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,415
Originally Posted by Budly View Post
Hi Arus808,

This isn't a general discussion of "holocaust denial." I think my initial post made it pretty clear that I'd like people here to watch some short episodes of a video and offer an opinion. You can't seem to do that, and instead offer a bunch of links, most of which don't mention the videos at holocaust denial videos dot com.
Okay, submit a link to them and I will watch them; but I will present my opinions of them with no regard to your little rules. In fact that is what you will get from this forum.


Edited by Tricky:  Name edited to correct spelling of member name.

Last edited by Tricky; 18th August 2009 at 05:40 AM. Reason: correct spelling of member name
fullflavormenthol is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 08:28 PM   #30
A W Smith
Philosopher
 
A W Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,032
Originally Posted by Budly View Post
Hi Arus808,

This isn't a general discussion of "holocaust denial." I think my initial post made it pretty clear that I'd like people here to watch some short episodes of a video and offer an opinion. You can't seem to do that, and instead offer a bunch of links, most of which don't mention the videos at holocaust denial videos dot com.

this blog here discusses the videos you made
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...norant_03.html
and I agree with him.
Edited by Tricky:  Name edited to correct spelling of member name.
__________________
911 resource site by Mark Roberts
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home
Gravy: Christopher7; You are a Basking Shark in a sea of ignorance.
Galileo:The jury said I didn't have any mental defects or diseases, they declared me 100% sane. Has a jury ever declared you sane?
Don’t get me lol’n off my chesterfield dude.

Last edited by Tricky; 18th August 2009 at 05:40 AM. Reason: correct spelling of member name
A W Smith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 08:30 PM   #31
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 44,139
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Covered adequately here.

Incidentally, Budly, are you the creator of this film, One Third of the Holocaust?
Why don't you answer this question bud(ly)? Being honest with members would be a good start.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 08:32 PM   #32
Questioninggeller
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,048
Originally Posted by Budly View Post
I am asking if anyone here can watch some episodes of one of the videos and state specifically that they don't agree with in a specific episode.
The onus is on you to refute historical consensus.

You have the Shermer's appearance on Donahue. That's a fine place to start. Read his book Denying History and explain how his refutations, in your opinion, fail. He specifically addresses that appearance.

If you don't like that then read Robert Jan van Pelt's book The Case for Auschwitz: Evidence from the Irving Trial, which helped refute Irving and was a major blow to the falsifers of history.

As Holocaust deniers use the same discredited arguments, until we see something new you can read the books that deal with the subject.

Last edited by Questioninggeller; 17th August 2009 at 08:37 PM.
Questioninggeller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 08:42 PM   #33
Budly
Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 148
Hi Questioninggeller: You broke guideline #1. But were you to watch that Donahue episode and comment on Michael Schermer, you'd actually be the first person here to do what I reasonably requested.

By the way does anyone know why this topic isn't showing up in "recent threads"? Posts here are more recent than the threads listed.

Last edited by Budly; 17th August 2009 at 08:44 PM. Reason: changed a word
Budly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 09:03 PM   #34
Sword_Of_Truth
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 11,494
Why do you hate jews, Budly?

What about them invokes your ire?

What, if anything, did a jew ever do to you?

Is it just the jews or are there any other ethnic, racial or religious groups you feel compelled to unload on?

Guideline #1: Reponses to my questions must use my proper honorific title.

Last edited by Sword_Of_Truth; 17th August 2009 at 09:05 PM.
Sword_Of_Truth is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 09:21 PM   #35
Budly
Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 148
Hi Sword Of Truth,

You broke Guideline #2, as put forth in my initial post.
Budly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 09:31 PM   #36
Questioninggeller
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,048
Originally Posted by Budly View Post
Hi Questioninggeller: You broke guideline #1. But were you to watch that Donahue episode and comment on Michael Schermer, you'd actually be the first person here to do what I reasonably requested.
I think you should answer the questions already presented via that blog, which raises serious points. But, I'll play along...

Let's start with the Donahue clip right when Shermer first appears on the show, Shermer talking and your video cuts Shermer's sentence mid-way to show a Cole clip.

Video here:
http://holocaustdenialvideos.com/donahue_b.html

Cole, who has never published any works nor has any degrees, makes many claims in there about Zyklon B. Let's pick one:

Jean-Claude Pressac, a former Holocaust denier, is cited by Cole as an authority on figures and claims 95% of Zyklon B was not used in gas chambers. His book Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers, which Cole cites, was published by the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation.

As you might know, the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation is not an academic press. It is ran by Serge Klarsfeld for "collecting and publishing of personal data of the Holocaust," which seems to lack academic rigor/peer review. While this foundation has a passion for making Holocaust material available, I have serious skepticism about the quality of work produced.

More to the point, there is one copy of this book for $900 on Amazon and I couldn't even find it in google scholar to see who has cited it. (I couldn't even find an ISBN number for it even though it was published in 1989!)

So my questions to discuss:
1) Why should we take the word of Jean-Claude Pressac as an authority on these figures? He's not a historian. Where'd he get his degrees? Did he teach? Was he peer-reviewed in his own field?
2) How does he come up with such numbers (I ask because I'm not paying $900 for the book)? Methodology? His sources?
3) What proof do you have that these numbers are used by historians (I point you to the fact that he is not a historian and has no credentials in history)? Basically, here I want to see some peer-review. Do Holocaust scholars accept these numbers? Do they reject them? What have Holocaust scholars said about such figures? What numbers have Holocaust scholars given?


This is the problem in general for the Holocaust deniers: sourcing. All too often deniers take little bits of something that isn't a real issue and move the goal post. Your video completely avoided Shermer's point by citing a denier who cited a former denier with dubious historical qualifications and was published by a non-academic publisher with questionable, if any, peer-review.

In sum, please answer those questions above and I'll move on to my second point based on your response.

Last edited by Questioninggeller; 17th August 2009 at 09:57 PM. Reason: grammar and add a point
Questioninggeller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 10:02 PM   #37
Budly
Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 148
Hi Questioninggeller,

Thank you for finally doing what I had requested: watching an episode and commenting. It took 36 posts before someone could do that, which is astonishing to me.

You are asking about the credibility of using Jean Claude Pressac and his book Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers. I think it's a valid source because, as the video shows, it's listed under "Further Reading" on the website of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. In other words, the USHMM thinks it's a valid source. My guess is the USHMM would review it before recommending it.

I once read some of this book on google books, but noticed that it's no longer there, which is weird.

This episode of "Phil Donahue Analysis" uses a clip from "The David Cole Video" which is also on holocaust denial videos dot com, if you're wondering where that came from.

I can't answer your questions about who Pressac is, but thanks for asking and you have me interested also. Pressac claims that 95 percent of Zyklon B was used for delousing, and I would also like to know his source for that.

Look forward to hearing your comments on other episodes.

Last edited by Budly; 17th August 2009 at 10:13 PM.
Budly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 10:19 PM   #38
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 44,139
Originally Posted by Budly View Post
Hi Questioninggeller,

Thank you for finally doing what I had requested: watching an episode and commenting. It took 36 posts before someone could do that, which is astonishing to me.
I find it astonishing that anyone responded to someone who comes here with repeatedly debunked material and sets guidelines like he owned the forum.

Your lack of response to Brainster and my earlier questions leads me to conclude you are responsible for the videos. Why are you afraid to admit it?
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 10:24 PM   #39
Questioninggeller
Illuminator
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,048
Originally Posted by Budly View Post
Hi Questioninggeller,

Thank you for finally doing what I had requested: watching an episode and commenting. It took 36 posts before someone could do that.

You are asking about the credibility of using Jean Claude Pressac and his book Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers. I think it's a valid source because, as the video shows, it's listed under "Further Reading" on the website of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. In other words, the USHMM thinks it's a valid source.
Sorry, but my point was on a particular claim Cole made about the book, which you felt the need to repeat. (As you know books can get recommended despite specific errors, mistakes, or incorrect points.) In particular, this denialist claim I would like either supported or withdrawn from your video:

Originally Posted by Budly's video
Pressac claims that 95 percent of Zyklon B was used for delousing
Do you stand by that figure? If you stand by that figure because the Holocaust Memorial Museum recommends the reading why don't you accept everything else in the book? Why do you believe that figure is correct and not everything else?

Originally Posted by Budly View Post
I can't answer your questions about who Pressac is, but thanks for asking and you have me interested also.

Look forward to hearing your comments on other episodes.
You don't know his qualifications/status/standing in the academic community and yet you cite an obscure book.

You are going to ignore all my questions about the source you inserted in between Shermer's comments? I'll repost my questions for the sake of making my point about the figures/sourcing in your videos:

Originally Posted by Questioninggeller View Post
So my questions to discuss:
1) Why should we take the word of Jean-Claude Pressac as an authority on these figures? He's not a historian. Where'd he get his degrees? Did he teach? Was he peer-reviewed in his own field?
2) How does he come up with such numbers (I ask because I'm not paying $900 for the book)? Methodology? His sources?
3) What proof do you have that these numbers are used by historians (I point you to the fact that he is not a historian and has no credentials in history)? Basically, here I want to see some peer-review. Do Holocaust scholars accept these numbers? Do they reject them? What have Holocaust scholars said about such figures? What numbers have Holocaust scholars given?
If you want to cite a fringe source to use a figure that the scholars don't accept to refute scholars, don't expect to be taken seriously.

Maybe in the future you will answer the questions or choose to be skeptical of repeating a claim from a non-historian to criticize work done by historians.


Edit to add Bud's addition:
Originally Posted by Budly View Post
My guess is the USHMM would review it before recommending it.
Maybe, maybe not. By a scholar? By an intern compling a bibliography? I bet I (and other members of this forum) can send email linked to this thread (and the points I made) and get it removed from there soon. If I do will you remove that from your video as well?

I really want to know why the Holocaust Museum is a valid source that book (and you believe that figure), but you ignore everything else on that website...

Last edited by Questioninggeller; 17th August 2009 at 10:42 PM. Reason: add question
Questioninggeller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th August 2009, 10:40 PM   #40
Budly
Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 148
Hi QuestioningGeller:

The US Holocaust Memorial Museum website has a "Holocaust Encyclopedia." If you look up "gas chamber" you get an article called "Gassing Operations." After the article, there are 4 sources listed for further reading. Pressac's book is listed as number three, and no I don't think you're going to be able to get that removed by sending them an email with a link to this thread. Do I stand by the books allegation that 95 percent of Zyklon B was used for delousing? Answer: No, since I believe that 100% of the Zyklon B was used for delousing. But the point in the video is that a recognized source (as in recognized by the USHMM) states essentially that a pile of Zyklon B cannisters is not evidence for the holocaust. At least 95 out of 100 cannisters anyway.

Hi Lionking: As I've already mentioned, I don't want to divulge my identity which is an option for users of forums like this. Also, it would draw away from the subject of the thread.

Last edited by Budly; 17th August 2009 at 10:46 PM.
Budly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:43 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.