Which of These 12 Facts About Jesus Do You Believe Are True?

Biblo · Aug 25, 2009

1. Jesus died by crucifixion.
2. He was buried.
3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.
4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).
5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).
6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.
7. The resurrection was the central message.
8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.
9. The Church was born and grew.
10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.
11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).
12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).

Hokulele · Aug 25, 2009

The ones for which there is evidence.

Thunder · Aug 25, 2009

#12 is the only one that has any evidence to back it up.

arthwollipot · Aug 25, 2009

Eleven of these twelve "facts" are premised on the actual existence of Jesus, which has not been reliably established.

Establish that Jesus existed first, and then you can ask about details of his life and death.

Biblo · Aug 25, 2009

arthwollipot said:
Eleven of these twelve "facts" are premised on the actual existence of Jesus, which has not been reliably established.

Establish that Jesus existed first, and then you can ask about details of his life and death.

Which one is not premised on Jesus existing?

What would you need as more evidence than already exists?

Hokulele · Aug 25, 2009

arthwollipot said:
Eleven of these twelve "facts" are premised on the actual existence of Jesus, which has not been reliably established.

Establish that Jesus existed first, and then you can ask about details of his life and death.

Oh, I think #9 is pretty factual.

Biblo · Aug 25, 2009

parky76 said:
#12 is the only one that has any evidence to back it up.

So Paul converted, but he must have had an experience do you agree that would cause him to convert?

Biblo · Aug 25, 2009

Hokulele said:
Oh, I think #9 is pretty factual.

You agree the Church was born and grew. What was it founded on?

Hokulele · Aug 25, 2009

Biblo said:
So Paul converted, but he must have had an experience do you agree that would cause him to convert?

Or temporal lobe epilepsy.

http://www.uni-graz.at/~schulter/se04_religiosity.pdf

Hokulele · Aug 25, 2009

Biblo said:
You agree the Church was born and grew. What was it founded on?

Various myths woven around a disciple of John the Baptist who promoted apocalyptic thinking and died some time before 40 CE.

arthwollipot · Aug 25, 2009

Biblo said:
Which one is not premised on Jesus existing?

What would you need as more evidence than already exists?

#12.

Hokulele said:
Oh, I think #9 is pretty factual.

And #9. Ten of the twelve.

You're going to make me go through them all now, aren't you?

six7s · Aug 25, 2009

Biblo said:
Which of These 12 Facts About Jesus Do You Believe Are True?

In discussions on such topics, I try to avoid using words like 'belief' and ''faith', etc... preferring instead words like 'think'

Biblo said:
7. The resurrection was the central message.

Of the 12 options in the OP, this seems to be the only one that can be discussed without resorting to logical fallacies

PixyMisa · Aug 25, 2009

Biblo said:
1. Jesus died by crucifixion.

While crucifixion was used by the Romans, there is no evidence of a specific historical Jesus, much less that he was crucified.

2. He was buried.

There is no evidence that he existed in the first place.

3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.

There is no evidence that he or his disciples existed.

4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).

There is no evidence of a tomb.

5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).

There is no evidence that Jesus or his disciples existed in the first place. What experiences they may or may not have had is therefore moot.

6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.

If they existed at all, that might be true, but irrelevant.

7. The resurrection was the central message.

That's opinion, rather than fact. Who knows?

8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.

Well, someone did, at some point. That much is established. The disciples? No evidence for their existence.

9. The Church was born and grew.

Yeeees. Yes, I think we can grant that one.

10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.

By what calendar?

11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).

No evidence that Jesus or James existed, much less that there was a resurrection.

12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).

Well, someone wrote those letters, and it might as well have been some guy who took the name of Paul, and it appears that he was a convert.

So, 9, perhaps 10 and 12.

Elizabeth I · Aug 25, 2009

You agree the Church was born and grew. What was it founded on?

I also agree that the Aztecs built impressive temples to their gods, and carried out elaborate rituals of worship. Upon what was that worship founded?

PixyMisa · Aug 25, 2009

Biblo said:
You agree the Church was born and grew. What was it founded on?

The same things every religion is founded on. Ignorance. Fear. Greed. Hope. Love. A fundamental mistunderstanding of formal logic, statistical methods, and neuroscience.

People, in other words.

arthwollipot · Aug 25, 2009

Biblo said:
1. Jesus died by crucifixion.

If he existed.

Biblo said:
2. He was buried.

If he existed.

Biblo said:
3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.

If he existed.

Biblo said:
4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).

If he existed.

Biblo said:
5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).

If he existed.

Biblo said:
6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.

Okay, I have to stop here. The disciples were doubters? I don't see any justification for this even in the gospels. Thomas only doubted after Jesus was resurrected. If he existed.

Biblo said:
7. The resurrection was the central message.

If he existed. And anyway, I thought the sacrifice was the central message.

Biblo said:
8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.

In as much as the disciples themselves existed, this may well be true.

Biblo said:
9. The Church was born and grew.

Undeniable.

Biblo said:
10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.

If they believed in Christ, wouldn't they be Christians and not Orthodox Jews?

Biblo said:
11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).

If he existed.

Biblo said:
12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).

This may also be true.

Apart from anything else, by asking a binary question "true or not true" you are completely missing the point of the Bible. The point is not whether the events described in the Bible are historically accurate or not. Many of them may have been based on actual events but were elaborated or embellished by subsequent retellings. What's important is the message of the Bible - Christ's sacrifice and atonement for the Sin of Adam.

What's more important? The words of the Bible, or living your life in Christ?

boloboffin · Aug 25, 2009

"Believe to be true" is a loaded term in a religious discussion.

So I'll divide this into several classes - what I know to be true, what I consider to be true, what I consider to be false, what I know to be false, and right in the middle what I don't have any problem being true or false.

As has been pointed out, many of these rely on Jesus having existed. I consider that to be true. That means that all of those at most can only be considered to be true by me.

Biblo said:
1. Jesus died by crucifixion. - No problem, lean toward true
2. He was buried. - Consider to be true
3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope. - Consider to be true
4. The tomb was empty (the most contested). - Consider to be false
5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof). - No problem, lean toward false
6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers. - Consider to be false
7. The resurrection was the central message. - Consider to be true
8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem. - Know to be true
9. The Church was born and grew. - Know to be true
10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship. - You mean "devout", and then I have no problem either way, but lean toward false
11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic). - Consider to be false
12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).- Know to be true

I have this feeling that you mean this list to be considered chronologically, and so I point out that I consider the preaching of Jesus' resurrection in Jerusalem something that happened well after the birth and growth of what would become the Christian religion. I consider the letter of James one of the earliest examples of this movement, representative of the kind of thing James would have sent with his emissaries, if not an actual letter, that riled Paul up when he spoke of people coming from James. Those people would have had something of James' to prove they were from him and a letter usually served such purpose. That makes Paul's letter to the Galatians a response to the type of trouble stirred up by people with this letter (or something like it) in hand.

And there is nothing in the letter of James that requires a teaching of Jesus' resurrection. Even the "coming of the Lord" section can be read without resurrection.

Biblo · Aug 25, 2009

boloboffin said:
2. He was buried. - Consider to be true
3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope. - Consider to be true
7. The resurrection was the central message. - Consider to be true
8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem. - Know to be true
9. The Church was born and grew. - Know to be true
12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).- Know to be true

So did they make up the story about seeing Jesus alive from the dead?

How would Paul genuinely convert to the faith if he didn't lie?

arthwollipot · Aug 25, 2009

Biblo said:
So did they make up the story about seeing Jesus alive from the dead?

There could be any number of explanations for why it is reported that the Disciples said that they saw Jesus.

Biblo · Aug 25, 2009

arthwollipot said:
There could be any number of explanations for why it is reported that the Disciples said that they saw Jesus.

Name the most likely one.

Which of These 12 Facts About Jesus Do You Believe Are True?

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