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#1 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: UK
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How much would vegetarianism benefit humanity?
Quite a lot, it would seem, although some believe that for the entire planet to turn vegetarian would mean the poorest wouldn't get an adequate diet.
Here are some quotes from articles. (I can't vouch for the accuracy of the information, though much of it comes from reputable sources.) This came out of a conversation a few weeks ago in another thread. I first linked to an article about how meat consumption is said to be causing food shortages for the majority of the population of Egypt: “The Rich countries are responsible for the continuing poverty of the South”
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Saying famine's all to do with a "Political construct" appears to be simplifying things. Here's a report on food shortages:
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Earlier in the article, it says:
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The BBC tries to provide a balanced view, in an opinion piece that contradicts that of the economist who wrote the Times article in one or two respects. It argues that it is indeed probable that most rich people in the West should cut down on meat consumption, but for poor families, eating meat could be essential for good health: Balancing the global need for meat
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#2 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,863
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I have been doing my part, at least. I now eat mostly vegetarian, often vegan meals several times a week. There is abundant protein in some of the cereal grains used to feed livestock now A good example is teff, which has, so far, been grown mostly for livestock production in the USA. In Ethiopia, it is a major source of protein. It is a good source of lysine, leucine and tryptophan and a host of minerals.
Why feed it to a middle critter? We are going to run out of land suitable to animal husbandry at our current rate. We are running out of potable water and irrigation water now. The possibility of wars for food and water is getting greater. Is that cheeseburger really worth that much human suffering? |
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#3 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,620
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DISCLAIMER: The above post is for informational and/or educational purposes only. It is not a substitute for the professional judgment of, in direct consultation with, a health care professional in diagnosing, treating, and/or preventing any disease or disorder. It is not to be construed as individualized medical advice, diagnosis, or a treatment recommendation. Your reliance upon the information obtained or used by you at, through, or as a result of this post is solely at your own risk. |
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#4 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,874
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For some odd reason I find more and more skeptics leaning towards vegetarianism for utilitarian reasons and in my experience in the last 15 years as a researcher, consultant and farmer in sustainable food production in Africa this is the last eat-ism which is utilitarian.
Eating less animal products (meat, dairy, eggs) and eating animal products grown on pastures not grains is the most scientifically rational way. Vegetarianism historically is not a utilitarian idea, but an ethical idea. Argue the ethics of vegetarianism by all means, not the utility. Those in western cities should avoid the predominantly grain fed livestock products available and support pastured livestock products for utilitarian reasons. Permanent perennial grasslands are not only essential to stop soil erosion in the great river basins of all the worlds continents, they create soils, they sequestrate significant quantities of carbon, they require minimum energy/inputs to maintain and only require intelligent grazing management. Their are pioneering farmers and projects which aim to reclaim and re-establish perennial crop agricultural systems. For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Institute On a side note. By reducing the consumption of this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-fructose_corn_syrup product as well as grain fed animal products we would be well on the way to allocating more grain for third world starving humans and reduce western obesity at the same time. |
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#5 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
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I have to admit that I find myself a little annoyed by the vegetarian evangelism that seems to have been happening in the last few months. Everybody seems to want to tell me how bad for the planet my omnivory is.
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#6 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,874
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot
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#7 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#8 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Mar 2009
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I am an omnivore. I like the taste of meat. It gives me energy. I like salads and fruits and grains, but I don't want to subside -only- on those.
Researchers are working on enhancing crops to have higher yields so you can produce more per acre and still keep the soil fresh. Norman Borlaug is one person who is working on finding better ways of growing food. I don't get angry or upset with someone if they are a vegan or a vegetarian. I do get irked when someone decides to lecture me on the evils of eating meat. I find animals tasty, some more than others. |
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#9 |
Illuminator
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#10 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Crops, if properly rotated, will input nurtients while taking out others. I thought this was a fairly common practice, as planting the same thing year after year will eventually weaken the soil.
Borlaug is still researching and teaching, as well as continuing to be an activist. So I'd say he's still pretty active for a 95 year old. |
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#11 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 2,381
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Are you saying that crops have been designed, or exist naturally, that contain enough protein to adequately substitute for the health gains people in developing countries could get by eating meat? So what the BBC story said about many people - especially children - in the third world being malnourished through lack of protein need no longer apply if only people could eat more of those? I'll quote a bit more from the article:
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I'd never heard of teff, so I've just looked it up. Wikipedia says a few interesting things:
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#12 |
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
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Some plants are a net drain on nitrogen from the soil, and some are net contributors. (The nitrogen in soil is in the form of simple compounds like nitrate and nitrite, but some organisms can create those with nitrogen extracted from the air, which is roughly fourth fifths nitrogen.)
But what works for nitrogen doesn't work for other elements, like calcium, iron, potassium, molybdenum, sodium, magnesium, and so on. All plants are net extractors of those, so farming is absolutely invariably a drain on soil nutrients overall, no matter how much you rotate crops for nitrogen restoration. Fertilizers only partially replace only some of these elements and others not at all, and they are themselves made from the consumption of finite resources. The only way to completely put these micronutrients back in the ecosystem they came from is the natural way: letting animals & plants drop leaves and wastes on the ground to decompose, and letting them die and decompose on the ground. In nature, that's the way things always happened, so these micronutrients were just cycled around. As hunter-gatherers, we were simply a part of that. Harvesting takes the micronutrients away permannently, and that's a big part of how we've managed to make some farm lands unusable in just a few centuries/millennia. Our descendants are going to switch back to some way of cycling our "used" micronutrients back into the ecosystems our food comes from, whether because we/they choose to while the land is still good, or because we will have permanently ruined so much land that that's the only remaining way to live because farming will have become impossible. |
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#13 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,863
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They could do with a lot less, as, certainly, could we in the developed countries. (Think LDL.)
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No single vegetable source of protein is going to totally replace meat, but eating a wide variety of grains and legumes and fruit will provide nearly any essential amino acid that I know of.
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But other foods contain aluminum as well. The important point is that a varied diet based largely on vegetable sources is probably more sustainable than a largely carnivorous diet. I have actually been losing some weight lately without feeling like I was starving by eating less meat and a wide variety of vegetable dishes from many ethnic sources, largely Ethiopian. (That includes a lot of teff, although it is almost as expensive here as meat.) Every year, during Lent, all Ethiopian Christians who have been weaned are vegan for 40 days. After about 1600 years, they seem to have worked out a way not to feel too put upon by the tradition. We are not talking about rabbit food here. |
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#14 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sigil, the city of doors
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#15 |
Muse
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 756
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Sorry to hear that. I've tried to follow through threads regarding vegetarianism, but I haven't got the same impression. To me the main point is trying to encourage people to keep the portion of meat of their balanced omnivorous diet as small as possible.
When asked about the possibility of reducing their meat consumption (here and in the real world), even in theory, I feel it's rather the people loving to eat meat on a daily basis that are usually holding an unreasonable/fanatic position. |
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I believe the common denominator of the universe is chaos, hostility and murder - Werner Herzog |
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#16 |
Master Poster
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Our knowledge has made us cynical; our cleverness, hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. - Charles Chaplin, 1940 |
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#17 |
Mad Scientist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,626
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It's just really unnecessary. If everyone went this route, then there wouldn't be enough plant protein to go around. Call me busy or lazy, but I don't have that much time to devote to making sure I got the right amount of amino acids in mine and my childrens' diets via vegetation.
Animals have this uncanny ability to eat vegetation and then build the right proteins we need to eat, so that we can spend less time chewing cuds compared to them. We'd have to burn just as much fuel to grow feed for humans and transport it around. At least in the winter here we can raise animals to eat locally. Aluminum and Alzheimers? Aluminum is the most abundant mineral on earth and is found in all of us, in all animals, and in all plants. The real causes of Alzheimers are vastly more interesting: http://www.emaxhealth.com/2/91/26555...c-protein.html |
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Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it! |
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#18 |
Mad Scientist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,626
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Isn't it political then? They export stuff to gain a profit, to buy things like guns. If they feed their people instead, then they wouldn't make a profit and they'd feel all powerless. So it really has nothing to do with meat eating.
And if they are importing grain to feed livestock, then wouldn't they have to import it to feed people too? Then they would miss out on all the other things animal provide (milk, hides, etc.). How easy it is to grow enough grain in Egypt to feed all the people there? Near impossible, right? It's a desert isn't it? |
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Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it! |
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#19 |
Mad Scientist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,626
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__________________
Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it! |
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#20 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,852
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Vegetarianism is a manifestation of superstition.
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It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong. - Richard P. Feynman ξ |
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#21 |
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#22 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,852
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It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong. - Richard P. Feynman ξ |
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#23 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,620
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Just remember to take your B12 supplements, veggie-eaters-only. Pernicious anemia is a
![]() ~Dr. Imago |
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DISCLAIMER: The above post is for informational and/or educational purposes only. It is not a substitute for the professional judgment of, in direct consultation with, a health care professional in diagnosing, treating, and/or preventing any disease or disorder. It is not to be construed as individualized medical advice, diagnosis, or a treatment recommendation. Your reliance upon the information obtained or used by you at, through, or as a result of this post is solely at your own risk. |
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#24 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,234
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__________________
Our knowledge has made us cynical; our cleverness, hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. - Charles Chaplin, 1940 |
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#25 |
Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 30,425
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Unfortunately, or fortunately, the quality-of-life issue w.r.t. flavor and eating satisfaction outweighs a lot of it. And, as usual, I'm disturbed that a "critical mass" of public opinion may be able to flat-out outlaw it, the way cigarettes are currently poised to be. Propriety of the domain of government is, unfortunately, rarely questioned nowadays in favor of vox populi vox dei. |
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"Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? |
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#26 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,852
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Scientific evidence like this must perplex and frustrate vegetarian dogmatists:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0111210350.htm and http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...8-adkins_x.htm |
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It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong. - Richard P. Feynman ξ |
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#27 |
Other (please write in)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,302
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Originally Posted by Perpetual Student
Originally Posted by Dr. Imago
Originally Posted by Beerina
![]() What I don't understand is the rather prickish knee-jerk reaction to the suggestion that vegetarianism would be a net benefit. For example, in my region we use our fresh water supply to water crops, 90% of which go to animals, not humans. And we all should have learned in biology that you lose 90% of the energy each greater step of the food chain you go. And if you look at all we put into getting our meat (the factory farms, huge waste amounts dumped in the local area, lots of anti-biotics, etc.) it is even more inefficient. I can see grassland animals fine as well, though. I am not vegetarian, but I can see where these arguments are coming from. I don't get why people are acting like they are offended on behalf of their sacred eating habits, though. |
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As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn |
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#28 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,852
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It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong. - Richard P. Feynman ξ |
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#29 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 48,647
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Yeah, um... no. Egypt has always been poor, even when it had far fewer people. According to Wikipedia, 99% of the population is confined to about 5.5% of the land, giving an effective population density of about 1500 people/km2. But compare that to Hong Kong, with a population of about 6000 people/km2. Hong Kong has a per capita GDP of around 14 times as high as Egypt's. It has to import lots of food, but it's not poor. So something is clearly way off about this analysis.
Oh, and no mention of the role of ethanol production on food prices. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#30 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,863
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Therte is a valid argument for running cattle on dry grasslands that would not support any edible food crop. I have a problem with the idea of feeding them grain that would, itself, have met the protein needs of three or four times as many people as do the cattle produced.
Feeding them grain, ultimately, results in humans with clogged veins. Eating meat made a lot more sense before the development of agriculture. It is difficult to forage enough protein from vegetable sources in the wild. We don't have that excuse when we can raise enough barley and beans on a couple of acres to feed a small family. There are, of course, political considerations. It has already been pointed out that the demand for meat overwhelms the ability of some countries to produce affordable foods, thus benefitting the wealthy producers and consumers far more than it does the peasants who work the land. A good example would be the Irish potato famine. There was food there, but it was produced for export or consumption by the landlords. The peasants got what the landlords wanted to give them, essentially. Lots of people starved as a result. Eating meat, in a capitalist system with no limits leads to starvation for the poor and obesity for the wealthy. |
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#31 |
Graduate Poster
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#32 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#33 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,863
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Hong Kong has stuff to export and is a popular tourist destination. There are jobs for people to provide income so that they can buy the imported food.
Egypt really has nothing significant to export. That kind of leaves the people with little way of buying even what is imported. The ecconomics of the situation are not that hard to figure out. |
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#34 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 48,647
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#35 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 48,647
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What, Egypt isn't a popular tourist destination? Is it missing attractions?
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#36 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,863
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#37 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,863
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The night life sucks. That's where the real money is in tourism
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#38 |
Master Poster
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__________________
Our knowledge has made us cynical; our cleverness, hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. - Charles Chaplin, 1940 |
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#39 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 48,647
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And they're all paragons of capitalism? No, I don't think so. Third-world countries tend to be quite far from free markets.
And that's got what, exactly, to do with a lack of land or the use of crops to feed livestock? Nothing.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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#40 |
Satan's Helper
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 44,006
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Sorry, I don't have time to read this thread. I gotta watch the pork chops I'm cooking.
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"I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan |
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