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Old 12th November 2009, 12:54 AM   #1
BenRayfield
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Lightbulb USA Quantum Law Challenge

Similar to how James Randi, years ago, offered some of his money to anyone who could prove paranormal things existed (still an unclaimed prize, and much bigger than it started), I will create the "USA Quantum Law Challenge" with some of my money... (after I choose the details of the offer and figure out how the legal parts of that would work)

I predict that other people will eventually donate money to this fund in a similar way James Randi's fund increased from 1000 dollars to a million dollars.

The following is one of my many ideas for how this would work and how somebody would win the money in the "USA Quantum Law Challenge". I'm not making an offer yet. The following is an example:



The first person to choose a specific time during the next week, and prove, accurate to the standards of science, that the quantity of laws in USA is an odd number, will receive the money, and the same offer is made for proving the quantity of laws in USA is an even number.




Why would I offer money for proving that?

Because my theory is that nobody knows, and if anybody proved it and we started to know how many laws there were in USA (just the last base-2 digit), then the USA government would have to become extremely more self-consistent and logical before it could be counted.

I predict that the first time this money is won (by anyone), many of Earth's big problems will quickly be solved after that, simply by proving its "even" or "odd" at any arbitrary instant in time in the future. I say that 1 qubit of information is in quantum superposition, and the entire Earth is multiverse-branched like Schroedinger's-cat, and whoever is the first to prove its not (by proving "even" or "odd" just once) wins the money. Its as simple as counting then seeing if its divisible by 2.

To everyone, would you donate money to this fund (which would be won by the first person to prove "even" or "odd")?


Or, I may add a few more rules to this "USA Quantum Law Challenge". I'll have to think about the most effective way to do it. I'm also thinking about varying certain amounts based on an exponentially increasing number, increasing as a function of time, or something like gambling with those numbers. Theres many ways to do this.


I'm not going to write it this way in the official version, but you could say I'm going to offer an increasing money prize to someone who can quantum-collapse the wavefunction of that 1 qubit (number of laws is even or odd at any 1 time in the near future).
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Old 12th November 2009, 01:57 AM   #2
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So your point is....? Laws change faster than we can count them? So what? The same can be said of the population for example. What's your point?
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Old 12th November 2009, 02:14 AM   #3
BenRayfield
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My point is that "Laws change faster than we can count them" is true now and will soon stop being true because of a small amount of money I'll attach to a qubit.

That qubit is "even" or "odd" number of laws in USA.

The greed of the system can not resist. A small amount of money has an exponentially large effect.
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Old 12th November 2009, 05:47 AM   #4
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Now what is your defintion of law?

There is legislation, and that includes many layers and levels of government.

So what defintions, and what levels of government?

Will you count city ordinances? How abaout townships and counties or neighborhood covenants?
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Old 12th November 2009, 06:17 AM   #5
KoihimeNakamura
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Or judical rulings which are also laws (go common law systems!)
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Old 12th November 2009, 06:47 AM   #6
Careyp74
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can I have the money by simply proving that Schroedinger's-cat isn't multiverse-branched?
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Old 12th November 2009, 07:24 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Careyp74 View Post
can I have the money by simply proving that Schroedinger's-cat isn't multiverse-branched?
You're cheating. We all know that Schroedinger's cat is dead.
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Old 12th November 2009, 09:10 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by BenRayfield View Post
My point is that "Laws change faster than we can count them" is true now and will soon stop being true because of a small amount of money I'll attach to a qubit.
Why would it stop being true?

Why should I as a member of the Springfield City Council refrain from passing a law that my constituents badly need/want just because it will prevent some yahoo four states over from being able to properly count the number of laws in the USA?

The analogy of the number of people in the world is quite apt. Your desire for a million dollars will not prevent some woman in India from giving birth.
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Old 12th November 2009, 09:17 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Rika View Post
Or judical rulings which are also laws (go common law systems!)
And case law would be very difficult to quantify. One case might have more than one finding that can be treated as law in a new case. Also, with case law, depending on what level the precedent decision was made and how similar the facts are to another case, whether it applies (as law) isn't an all-or-nothing question. Same with dicta.

Other case law--landmark decisions in particular--are almost indistinguishable from statutory law.
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Old 12th November 2009, 09:20 AM   #10
JoeTheJuggler
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Originally Posted by drkitten View Post
Why would it stop being true?

Why should I as a member of the Springfield City Council refrain from passing a law that my constituents badly need/want just because it will prevent some yahoo four states over from being able to properly count the number of laws in the USA?

The analogy of the number of people in the world is quite apt. Your desire for a million dollars will not prevent some woman in India from giving birth.
For that matter, let's assume BenRayfield can collect a million dollars (though I doubt he'll collect anything) for this project.

Why would an entity like the U.S. Congress considering a budget bill (isn't that law? and how do you count it? each line item?) worth hundreds of billions (or trillions) of dollars pay the slightest attention to a million dollar consequence?
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Old 12th November 2009, 09:22 AM   #11
Careyp74
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Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
You're cheating. We all know that Schroedinger's cat is dead.
no, it is dead AND alive. Well, by now it is probably just dead
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Old 12th November 2009, 09:44 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Careyp74 View Post
no, it is dead AND alive. Well, by now it is probably just dead
I was very impressed that my 10 year old son, on hearing what the Schroedinger's Cat thought experiment was all about, asked, "So that means that as more time passes, the cat grows 'more dead'?"

As for the number of laws, it is 50% even and 50% odd. I want the prize money.
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Old 12th November 2009, 11:17 AM   #13
BenRayfield
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Post USA Quantum Law Challenge - still planning

Dancing David said:
Quote:
Now what is your defintion of law?

There is legislation, and that includes many layers and levels of government.

So what defintions, and what levels of government?

Will you count city ordinances? How abaout townships and counties or neighborhood
covenants?
I havent decided how to handle that problem, but a possible solution is to have a separate money
prize for each kind of law, and make sure each definition of law can not be misinterpreted.

Example categories of law:

* Laws the president of USA is not allowed to break.

* Things written in any government paperwork, book, or other system, where I am supposed to be given a fine or called into a court room if I do the opposite of that thing.

* Any written and signed change in the legal system that must be approved by Congress (they think they get to defer that to their subdepartments, but that was a mistake)

Can you think of better definitions or categories of law that are not ambiguous (have more than 1 correct answer)?


leftysergeant said:
Quote:
can I have the money by simply proving that Schroedinger's-cat isn't
multiverse-branched?
No. It has to be by counting the laws and proving that its an even or odd quantity of laws. Thats the purpose of the USA Quantum Law Challenge.

I don't think you could prove we're not multiverse-branched in any case, but I don't want to direct people's efforts toward that. Its just a good way to describe the problem.


I said:
Quote:
My point is that "Laws change faster than we can count them" is true now and will soon stop being true because of a small amount of money I'll attach to a qubit.
drkitten said:
Quote:
Why would it stop being true?
If I directly offered money to change the quantity of laws, people would say the force that creates laws is so big it can not be affected much.

If I offer money to count the laws (and only tell even or odd, so theres no national-security accusations on counting secret laws), then thats much easier.

The laws of USA can not be counted until the USA government becomes extremely more self-consistent and logical, something most people of USA do not care about, but that will change when I offer money for it, and then more people will add money and it will change faster.

drkitten said:
Quote:
Why should I as a member of the Springfield City Council refrain from passing a law that my constituents badly need/want just because it will prevent some yahoo four states over from being able to properly count the number of laws in the USA?
You have a computer, right? Type the law into it for everyone in USA to read and count.

I'm not telling you not to create the law. When the people of USA realize the government can not even do basic arithmetic, the people of USA will be telling you what and what not to do with the laws. It won't be me.

drkitten said:
Quote:
The analogy of the number of people in the world is quite apt. Your desire for a million dollars will not prevent some woman in India from giving birth.
Unlike population, laws can flow through the internet, and theres more reason for everyone to have access to the laws than to every member of the population.

For example, "ignorance of the law is no excuse". If you create a law and do not give me the ability to know that law, then you are requiring me to be ignorant of the law, to be a criminal. If you allow me to go to a room full of books or search slowly through an unorganized website of laws, that does not give me the ability to avoid ignorance-of-the-law because I could not possibly find all the laws that are relevant to me in a short enough time.

If you want to control the laws, count the laws. If you want to control the population, count the population. I'm only interested in controlling the laws, not any specific law, but I want to give the people of USA the ability to control the laws at any time they choose for any reason they choose, a "government by the people".

JoeTheJuggler said:
Quote:
more than one finding that can be treated as law in a new case. Also, with case law, depending on what level the precedent decision was made and how similar the facts are to another case, whether it applies (as law) isn't an all-or-nothing question. Same with dicta.

Other case law--landmark decisions in particular--are almost indistinguishable from statutory law.
The "USA Quantum Law Challenge" will only be for certain types of law that can be unambigously (only 1 correct way to do it) counted. I have not decided which types of law are possible to count that way, but I'm sure a few unambigous categories can be thought of.


JoeTheJuggler said:
Quote:
Why would an entity like the U.S. Congress considering a budget bill (isn't that law? and how do you count it? each line item?) worth hundreds of billions (or trillions) of dollars pay the slightest attention to a million dollar consequence?
Congress is not relevant. The other rich and powerful people are too greedy to resist my offer, and people that do not like the USA government's reckless disregard for knowing what itself is doing will add to this fund. Congress will do what the rich and powerful tell Congress to do. Thats how it has worked for many years. The only change I'm making is the rich and powerful will do what we tell them to do: count the laws and receive a money prize.


Meadmaker said:
Quote:
As for the number of laws, it is 50% even and 50% odd. I want the prize money.
Even if you can prove it is multiverse-branched, you only get the money if you collapse the wavefunction so its not branched anymore. You have to actually prove that you counted the laws and that its even, or prove that its odd.

Also, I've not officially made an offer or defined the official rules yet. I'm still planning it in this thread.

Last edited by BenRayfield; 12th November 2009 at 11:20 AM. Reason: quote tag
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Old 12th November 2009, 01:57 PM   #14
Dancing David
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Now just to be clear and use standard language:
-there is legislation (there are not a seperate category of laws the the POTUS can not break), these are the laws passed by bodies in pwoer, which would include any body of government capable of passing legislation
-- federal government
-- states
-- counties, parishes and sub divisions of states
-- townships and other divisions of the above
-- cities, towns, villages

Then each of those levels will have sub sectors and departments that write the actual policies and expressions of the vested power from various sources of legislation, this is the source of the infamous 'adminstrative law and many bodies have various rules about the implementation of adminstractive law with various kinds of review. But it can also be subdivided as well, to more local authorities.

Then as was pointed out there is 'case law'which is a huge body of work.

But to just simplify law is not that simple, unless you want to overide the ability of each body and level of government to pass and enforce legislation.
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Old 12th November 2009, 02:16 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by BenRayfield View Post
If I directly offered money to change the quantity of laws, people would say the force that creates laws is so big it can not be affected much.

If I offer money to count the laws (and only tell even or odd, so theres no national-security accusations on counting secret laws), then thats much easier.
But no more effective. I don't care whether or not you offer money for someone else to count the laws.


Quote:
The laws of USA can not be counted until the USA government becomes extremely more self-consistent and logical, something most people of USA do not care about, but that will change when I offer money for it,
No, it won't. That's the point. This prize will change nothing.

Quote:
You have a computer, right? Type the law into it for everyone in USA to read and count.
Or not. We have an existing system by which laws and statutes are published that doesn't involve spending money or for a special purpose typist to break all acts down into unique "laws" according to your idiosyncratic system and publish them individually on the web.

You're asking for the Springfield city council to change its procedures -- which will probably involve changing its laws -- and spend a fair amount of money, for no gain whatsoever.

Not going to happen.

Quote:
I'm not telling you not to create the law. When the people of USA realize the government can not even do basic arithmetic, the people of USA will be telling you what and what not to do with the laws. It won't be me.
Except that "the people of USA [sic]" will probably not be telling me any such thing.

Quote:
For example, "ignorance of the law is no excuse". If you create a law and do not give me the ability to know that law, then you are requiring me to be ignorant of the law, to be a criminal. If you allow me to go to a room full of books or search slowly through an unorganized website of laws, that does not give me the ability to avoid ignorance-of-the-law because I could not possibly find all the laws that are relevant to me in a short enough time.
But you're not asking for "all the laws that are relevant to you." You're asking for all the laws, whether or not they're at all relevant to you. The laws detailing what kind of drugs a pharmacist must keep in stock and on hand, for example, are almost entirely irrelevant to you unless you're a pharmacist or are responsible for inspecting pharmacists. The laws detailing how many bandages of each size must be carried on an ambulance isn't really relevant to you unless you're responsible for stocking ambulances. The laws detailing the necessary font to use on drivers' licenses isn't really relevant to you unless you make drivers' licences -- and even then, the software probably takes care of that for you.

Quote:
Congress is not relevant. The other rich and powerful people are too greedy to resist my offer, and people that do not like the USA government's reckless disregard for knowing what itself is doing will add to this fund.
The "rich and greedy" people aren't going to put in this much work for a mere million dollars. I can make or lose that in a week on the stock market.
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Old 12th November 2009, 02:21 PM   #16
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Quote:
* Laws the president of USA is not allowed to break.
Are there laws the president is allowed to break?
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Old 12th November 2009, 02:24 PM   #17
JoeTheJuggler
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Originally Posted by Fiona View Post
Are there laws the president is allowed to break?
According to Nixon (and Bush), all of them. I'm pretty sure both of them said words to the effect that, if the president does it, it's not a crime.
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Old 12th November 2009, 02:29 PM   #18
drkitten
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Originally Posted by Fiona View Post
Are there laws the president is allowed to break?
Certainly. The Federal government has often exempted itself from laws it imposes on the rest of the country, and there is also a long-standing legal tradition that Congress cannot regulate the President.

As an example, the President (and Congress) are both exempt from the Freedom of Information Act although executive agencies generally are typically not.
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Old 12th November 2009, 02:31 PM   #19
JoeTheJuggler
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Originally Posted by BenRayfield View Post
The "USA Quantum Law Challenge" will only be for certain types of law that can be unambigously (only 1 correct way to do it) counted. I have not decided which types of law are possible to count that way, but I'm sure a few unambigous categories can be thought of.
It sounds like you're just re-defining law. Do you count the Miranda case? Do you ignore Roe v. Wade?

Quote:
Congress is not relevant.
Well that's just absurd. Congress is the legislative body of the United States. When they pass a bill and the president signs it (as, for example, the annual budget), it is law.

Maybe you should watch this before you go any further:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Your rant about the undue influence of the rich and powerful on Congress is irrelevant to the question of what counts as a quantifiable law. Why doesn't the annual budget count as law? It actually is law. What about emergency budget allocations (such as the emergency spending that comprised most of the budgeted money spent in Iraq and Afghanistan). And again, if you're trying to enumerate these laws, do you count one document as one law, or each line item of a budget as one law? Seems like you have some serious problems with operational definition.
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Old 12th November 2009, 03:11 PM   #20
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To Dancing David and drkitten, you're both right that there are many categories and too much complexity in the laws for my plan to work.

Therefore I will make 1 small change to make it exponentially easier:

Instead of starting with the goal of counting all the laws, I will define a log_base_2 quantity of law categories, each with their own money prize, each having approximately the same prize amount, and each 2 times as hard as the last. The first one will be trivially easy. The next one 2 times as hard as trivially easy, and keep doubling the difficulty until my original hard even-or-odd question is answered. An exponentially easier path to the same thing.

As a software programmer, the difference between a thousand and a billion dollars to me is on the difference in a Big-O equation, not significantly more difficult to affect and calculate with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_O_notation

The first "USA Quantum Law Challenge" will not include the smaller laws and things within subdepartments of the government, like the number of bandaids in an ambulance. It will be a very easy question to answer.

Each question will start to appear easy to answer only after the previous one is answered "even" or "odd" and that prize is won. I'll try to design it so that prize X being won implies a high chance that that prize X+1 will be won soon after that. I only need a log_base_2 number of prizes.


Fiona said:
Quote:
Are there laws the president is allowed to break?
I don't remember which president(s) of USA did this, but at least 1 shot and killed someone and got away with murder. He said if the president does it, that makes it legal.

I disagree, and I may offer a prize to anyone who can prove things about the quantity of laws that apply to the president.

I've not made any offers yet. I'm still planning the "USA Quantum Law Challenge".


I said:
Quote:
The "USA Quantum Law Challenge" will only be for certain types of law that can be unambigously (only 1 correct way to do it) counted. I have not decided which types of law are possible to count that way, but I'm sure a few unambigous categories can be thought of.
JoeTheJuggler said:
Quote:
It sounds like you're just re-defining law. Do you count the Miranda case? Do you ignore Roe v. Wade?
I will define log_base_2 quantity of categories. Each category will be a kind of law, each 2 times harder to define than the last. I have to define these categories because no such categories have ever been consistently defined.

I said:
Quote:
Congress is not relevant.
JoeTheJuggler said:
Quote:
Well that's just absurd. Congress is the legislative body of the United States. When they pass a bill and the president signs it (as, for example, the annual budget), it is law.

Maybe you should watch this before you go any further:
(I don't have Youtube video ability currently, but I'll try to watch it later)

I think you're misinterpreting the subject of my plans. I am not paying anyone to create laws, to not create laws, to change laws, or to not change laws.

I'm simply going to ask a series of questions and pay money when they are answered in a scientifically provable way.

Congress is not relevant to the "USA Quantum Law Challenge". Congress makes laws. I'm asking questions about laws. Its not illegal to ask questions, even if the government does not want us to ask those questions. For the same reason, its not illegal to pay someone to answer those questions and prove their answer is correct.

JoeTheJuggler said:
Quote:
Your rant about the undue influence of the rich and powerful on Congress is irrelevant to the question of what counts as a quantifiable law.
I did not mean it as a rant. I meant it as a mechanical statement of how things work. I don't care what people call a "quantifiable law". I'll just call it category_9_x_j or any other label. I don't have to use the word "law" at all. I'm talking about content instead of labels. I'll give a description of something then ask how many of those there are, and a proof of that will win the money. Theres no laws that say I can't do that.

Quote:
Why doesn't the annual budget count as law? It actually is law. What about emergency budget allocations (such as the emergency spending that comprised most of the budgeted money spent in Iraq and Afghanistan). And again, if you're trying to enumerate these laws, do you count one document as one law, or each line item of a budget as one law? Seems like you have some serious problems with operational definition.
Those will be in the later categories, in the log_base_2 total quantity of categories. It will start trivially simple and double in difficulty with each next category and prize money.



I don't think I'm doing anything wrong or illegal here. I think I'm being patriotic, trying to cause the USA government to become more self-consistent and logical and efficient. On average, I expect members of the USA government to be against the "USA Quantum Law Challenge" and a larger number of people not in that government to work toward it and to win the money prizes. 2 heads are smarter than 1. 300 million heads are smarter than 300 thousand heads.
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Old 12th November 2009, 05:09 PM   #21
JoeTheJuggler
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Originally Posted by BenRayfield View Post
I have to define these categories because no such categories have ever been consistently defined.
And that's pretty much what most of us have been asking you about. How do you plan to go about defining what is a law and how to count them?

Quote:
I think you're misinterpreting the subject of my plans. I am not paying anyone to create laws, to not create laws, to change laws, or to not change laws.
I think you're wrong. I understand that you're not paying anyone to create laws, not create laws, change laws or not change laws. I think you're proposing that it will be possible to count all the laws (or now, some categories of laws) to determine whether that count (or those counts) is an odd or even number. You seem to think that offering a cash award for solving the problem that the number of laws (even if it were operationally defined) changes too quickly to count them will somehow change things to make it possible to count them.

Quote:
Congress is not relevant to the "USA Quantum Law Challenge". Congress makes laws. I'm asking questions about laws.
Acts of Congress are relevant. I've twice asked you how you plan to count the annual budget that is passed into law by Congress. (The YouTube video above was "How a Bill Becomes a Law" by Schoolhouse Rock. It's a primary level lesson on what Congress does. Basically, Congress makes laws.)

Quote:
Its not illegal to ask questions,
<snip>
Theres no laws that say I can't do that.
<snip>
I don't think I'm doing anything wrong or illegal here.
Are you paranoid or something? (I mean that seriously. I don't mean to be insulting either. Have you considered the possibility that you might have a mental illness?)

No one has even hinted that what you're doing is wrong or illegal; it's just absurd and nonsensical. And your attempts to explain what you intend to do are becoming less and less coherent.
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Old 12th November 2009, 05:21 PM   #22
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a president shot and killed somebody? Wow.
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Old 12th November 2009, 05:48 PM   #23
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Sorry, I really don't get the point.

Now, with a good, unambiguous definition of (legal) laws, it may actually be possible in principle to count them all. But it sounds like you haven't settled upon a definition yet.

With an ambiguous definition it becomes impossible of course.
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Old 12th November 2009, 05:50 PM   #24
JoeTheJuggler
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Sorry, I really don't get the point.

Well, he did say "quantum". . . . .
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Old 12th November 2009, 05:52 PM   #25
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And why is it necessary to express the number of laws in base two to determine whether that number is even or odd?
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Old 12th November 2009, 06:12 PM   #26
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I think Ben has spent too much time in the Rayfield.

Without his tin foil hat.
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Old 12th November 2009, 09:13 PM   #27
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I am responding to JoeTheJuggler, PuppyCow, and casebro...

My plan for the "USA Quantum Law Challenge" is to define my categories in the same style as functional-programming and in the Lisp programming-language. That style is based on content of your mind instead of the labels that you use to remember that content and talk about it with other people. The USA legal system normally uses labels as its main way of thinking. I am not interested in interfacing with that part of it. I am only talking about offering money for proving "even" or "odd" based on content of certain ideas, not any existing labels. I am almost certain that if I overuse the word "law" then I will fail to get anything done only because of that. I will try to stick to the ideas of what I want to do instead of that label. The ideas are similar to that label.

I wrote about that as if I was paranoid only to explain something to people who have also read things I wrote on other parts of the internet, specifically that I know enough science to be dangerous but I am not making any threats, as it may have mistakenly appeared to those people. I did not want to give them the wrong idea. I will make it very clear in the following sentence then be done with it in this thread. There is no connection between the "USA Quantum Law Challenge" and my artificial-intelligence research or any of my other projects.

Tin foil hats? I have worn one a few times, but I am an electronic musician, connecting the tin foil to the sound card of my computer as an audio input to detect the electricity on my heads skin like a simple EEG. Not everybody has enough money to buy an EEG machine.

The most relevant part of this to "quantum" is that its 1 of 2 things. even or odd. It can work without any quantum math, and it can work with quantum math better. Its not necessary.
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Old 12th November 2009, 10:15 PM   #28
JoeTheJuggler
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Originally Posted by BenRayfield View Post
My plan for the "USA Quantum Law Challenge" is to define my categories in the same style as functional-programming and in the Lisp programming-language.
Why not try defining what you mean by "laws" or "categories of laws" in English? What advantage is there in trying to use Lisp?

This makes no more sense than converting a number to base two to determine whether it's odd or even.


Quote:
I wrote about that as if I was paranoid only to explain something to people who have also read things I wrote on other parts of the internet, specifically that I know enough science to be dangerous but I am not making any threats, as it may have mistakenly appeared to those people.
I assure you, anyone who thinks you know enough science to be dangerous is completely wrong.

Quote:
I did not want to give them the wrong idea.
And the antecedent to the pronoun "them" would be the people who already have a wrong idea about you? You don't see a logical problem there?



The unanswered questions are piling up.

Quote:
I will make it very clear in the following sentence then be done with it in this thread. There is no connection between the "USA Quantum Law Challenge" and my artificial-intelligence research or any of my other projects.
What?

Seriously, I think you should consult a mental health professional.


Quote:
The most relevant part of this to "quantum" is that its 1 of 2 things. even or odd. It can work without any quantum math, and it can work with quantum math better. Its not necessary.
So "quantum math" means "binary"?

ETA: And why is this in the Politics forum?
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Old 13th November 2009, 08:31 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by psychictv View Post
So your point is....? Laws change faster than we can count them? So what? The same can be said of the population for example. What's your point?
The point is that people go to jail for violating laws, so it's generally a good thing that people can keep up with it.


I once suggested all laws should be forced constitutionally to expire after, say, 5 years, and Congress would have to review and re-approve them. Someone else bleated, panicked, that there would be no way Congress could possibly review every law every five years.

Well, yeah, that's the point. How in hell are people supposed to obey them? People (i.e. the press) even have a hell of a difficult time just scanning the laws to look for secret handouts and whatnot.
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Old 13th November 2009, 09:07 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
The point is that people go to jail for violating laws, so it's generally a good thing that people can keep up with it.
But people don't go to jail for violating local ordinances six states away.

I mean, it would be one thing, for example, to try to enumerate all the Federal laws. That's actually not that hard to do; all (public) Federal laws are enumerated as they're created (e.g., "public law 94-142," which is the 142nd law passed by the 94th Congress.) Similarly, there's a clear record of all Federal private laws.

But the OP is looking at the huge set of laws that no single person needs to understand.
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Old 13th November 2009, 10:25 AM   #31
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My bolding:
Originally Posted by Beerina
The point is that people go to jail for violating laws, so it's generally a good thing that people can keep up with it.


I once suggested all laws should be forced constitutionally to expire after, say, 5 years, and Congress would have to review and re-approve them. Someone else bleated, panicked, that there would be no way Congress could possibly review every law every five years.

Well, yeah, that's the point. How in hell are people supposed to obey them?
Originally Posted by drkitten View Post
But people don't go to jail for violating local ordinances six states away.
And you most certainly don't go to jail for not knowing if the total number of laws (arbitrarily defined) is an odd or an even number!

So obviously going to jail or getting into trouble (or doing something illegal or immoral) has nothing whatsoever to do with this very strange topic.

Sorry, Beerina, I understand you're making a point about letting outdated law clutter up the books (or maybe about how non-lawyers might not always know whether what they're doing is legal or illegal, since I don't think you're advocating erasing the history of case law--liking considering precedents older than 5 years old to be invalid), but is certainly not "the point" of this thread.

On your point, though, I think rewriting every law everywhere and re-deciding cases as if we'd never considered the legal principles involved every 5 years would be a nightmare. If you're concerned that non-lawyers can't know what actions are legal or not, what you suggest would certainly only make that problem worse. (Let's see is abortion legal right now? Can a school count on receiving funding from property tax for your child's entire elementary years? Since there's no such a concept as settled law, these things would be in greater flux than they are now.)
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Old 13th November 2009, 11:34 AM   #32
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JoeTheJuggler said
Quote:
Why not try defining what you mean by "laws" or "categories of laws" in English? What advantage is there in trying to use Lisp?

This makes no more sense than converting a number to base two to determine whether it's odd or even.
Of course there will have to be some words, but most of it I will try to define in the style of lambda (the programming style normally done in Lisp). Its very important to define the categories and rules of the "USA Quantum Law Challenge" using the least number of words possible because every word is a security-vulnerability in the same way that the words "choose" and "consent" "underage" and "statutory" are security vulnerabilities. The USA government attacked that security vulnerability by redefining a law to include the word "consent" instead of the idea of "choose" and through its use of the security vulnerability was able to extremely increase the punishment for underage sex. Why change what the law says when you can just substitute a synonym (word that means the same thing) and redefine the synonym while most people are not paying attention. Every word in a technical statement, if applied to any important process in the government, will certainly be attacked as a security vulnerability, therefore I choose to use the least number of words possible when I write the official version of the "USA Quantum Law Challenge". In that way, the technical agreements and effects I will design will be significantly more secure than the laws that govern USAs National Security Agency (which appear to change whenever the rich and powerful people want them to). Lambda.

I do not care if the number is in base 2 or not. The "USA Quantum Law Challenge" will be a series of questions and a prize for each if its proven to be a quantity that is "even" or "odd", regardless of if you prove the specific quantity. I know of no way to prove its even or odd without proving the exact quantity, but things like that can be done in math sometimes, so I am not adding the extra requirement to prove the exact quantity. Prove even or odd, get the money prize, then we start the next harder question and money prize... 10 to 30 of these and everything about the USA government is counted, each money prize appearing easy to win only after the last is won.


JoeTheJuggler said
Quote:
What?

Seriously, I think you should consult a mental health professional.
What I said is no more insane than people who say an invisible and all-powerful life form talks to them everyday but they are the only one who can hear it. I am not saying it does or does not happen, but what I said sounds much easier to believe.

JoeTheJuggler said
Quote:
So "quantum math" means "binary"?
Quantum math includes continous changes between 2 things, and interactions between many sets of 2 things, each viewed as a dimension. I am writing it as "even" and "odd".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloch_sphere

My theory is that if there is any small thing in Earths past that extremely works against a future where all the laws and regulations etc are counted, then that small thing in Earths past would be changed as a result of the continuous multiverse branching (quantum wavefunction) so that it becomes possible a small amount more, but probably that will not be necessary because simply observing the number of laws (in 10 to 30 questions and prizes of exponentially increasing difficulty) will be enough to get it done without the need for any quantum math. If its needed, then quantum-observing the number of laws may quantum-collapse that wavefunction into a "reality" where the laws are counted (trivially true because somebody is directly counting them, but other things come with that action of counting). In summary, if you observe the quantity of laws in USA, then whatever is necessary to observe the quantity of laws comes at a lower cost than it would have cost without observing the quantity of laws, and if its extremely hard to create those things (that are necessary to count the laws) then the multiverse we currently occupy may be pushed in a small way toward becoming easier to create those things (something that happens all the time but is not noticed or controlled). My theory about quantum physics and multiverses is that the future can pull the past like that (and lots of other directions of pulling are also possible), but probably none of that will happen because counting all the laws is such an easy thing to do without it just by following the steps I will define.

Its just a theory. Can you find anything in quantum or multiverse math that contradicts it, something that has been proven true instead of is only another unproven theory? This is most similar to the "many worlds" interpretation of quantum physics, a continuous branching between them in all directions, if such thing is needed at all to do this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many_worlds

Most new theories about physics sound insane. Thats is a statement about the person who hears them, not about the theories.

It can work with or without quantum physics and multiverses. Thats just a possible optimization that it may or may not be able to test.


JoeTheJuggler said
Quote:
ETA: And why is this in the Politics forum?
Because its about the USA government. Everything about government is politics.


Beerina said
Quote:
I once suggested all laws should be forced constitutionally to expire after, say, 5 years, and Congress would have to review and re-approve them. Someone else bleated, panicked, that there would be no way Congress could possibly review every law every five years.
There was also a "Read The Bills Act" which required that Congress listen to a reading of every law/bill/etc they pass or they do not get to pass it. If they do not have time to read what they vote on, they should go to jail for the worst case ever of "ignorance of the law is no excuse", or at least not have immunity from those laws when themself violates those laws they did not read and passed.

But lets not get into the subject of what is wrong with the USA government. This forum would need a bigger hard-drive to store it all. The Constitution is good laws, but most of the other parts are not and are increasing in size and power and inefficiency at exponential speed. If we at least counted them, they would have to slow down to a speed that Congress can read before voting on.

drkitten said
Quote:
But people don't go to jail for violating local ordinances six states away.
You are right that is not important to know the local ordinances (a kind of law) six states away for the purpose of avoiding jail. The most important part about counting the laws six states away is the USA government would become more self-consistent and logical and efficient. The increased efficiency of the USA government would save trillions of dollars per year. Obama does not know the first thing about fixing the economy, which is knowing how to count and other basic math.

Quote:
I mean, it would be one thing, for example, to try to enumerate all the Federal laws. That's actually not that hard to do; all (public) Federal laws are enumerated as they're created (e.g., "public law 94-142," which is the 142nd law passed by the 94th Congress.) Similarly, there's a clear record of all Federal private laws.
Because its easy, that will be one of the earlier questions. Each question will have its own prize and be followed by a question 2 times as hard. Maybe the first question should have a 1000 dollar prize, and the prize approximately doubles (depending on how much money people donate to this fund) with each next question, ending somewhere around a billion dollars for the last question, a small price to pay to save trillions per year. Somebody will donate a billion dollars. Its not hard to get a billion dollar donation to this fund after half a billion was donated for the last prize.

Quote:
(e.g., "public law 94-142," which is the 142nd law passed by the 94th Congress.)
Thats a good example of using logic to avoid security vulnerabilities in technical writing. A "security vulnerability" (as I wrote above) would be calling the it "that law we passed last june on a thursday". Lambda and unique labels are the most secure, and that is how I will try to write the official version of the "USA Quantum Law Challenge".
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Old 13th November 2009, 11:44 AM   #33
drkitten
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Originally Posted by BenRayfield View Post

You are right that is not important to know the local ordinances (a kind of law) six states away for the purpose of avoiding jail. The most important part about counting the laws six states away is the USA government would become more self-consistent and logical and efficient.
And the most important part about not counting the laws is the that the "USA government" will NOT become more self-consistent and logical and efficient if someone tries to count all the laws.

I.e. it's totally wasted effort.


Quote:
The increased efficiency of the USA government would save trillions of dollars per year.
Except it wouldn't.

Quote:
Obama does not know the first thing about fixing the economy, which is knowing how to count and other basic math.
Er,.... no. The first things about fixing the economy is getting the credit freeze dealt with (which has been done), getting a bottom established under industrial production (which has been done), and getting employment back under control (which has not been done but is apparently the project for December according to recent reports).

Merely "counting" things won't help at all, since counting does not by itself create change. You can certainly use the numbers that you get from counting to help motivate change (that's why the federal budget deficit, for example, is known to the penny and why the budget hawks keep trotting it out), but simply knowing the number does nothing.



Quote:
Thats a good example of using logic to avoid security vulnerabilities in technical writing. A "security vulnerability" (as I wrote above) would be calling the it "that law we passed last june on a thursday". Lambda and unique labels are the most secure, and that is how I will try to write the official version of the "USA Quantum Law Challenge".
So in other words, they're already doing what you want (counting the Federal laws that are passed) and it hasn't helped. Indeed, they've been counting federal laws for a hell of a long time (I think the tradition may go back to Public Law 1-1), and despite the fact that it's relatively simple to know exactly how many public laws have been passed, no one a) knows, or b) cares -- and the number of laws continues to grow by hundreds each year.

In other words, YOUR IDEA DEMONSTRABLY WON'T WORK.

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Old 13th November 2009, 11:54 AM   #34
drkitten
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Originally Posted by BenRayfield View Post
There was also a "Read The Bills Act" which required that Congress listen to a reading of every law/bill/etc they pass or they do not get to pass it. If they do not have time to read what they vote on, they should go to jail for the worst case ever of "ignorance of the law is no excuse", or at least not have immunity from those laws when themself violates those laws they did not read and passed.
And that was also a really stupid idea, that was -- correctly -- shot down in flames.

First, there's a big difference between "reading" and "reading aloud"; most people can comfortably read for comprehension at 400wpm or so, a word every fifth of a second or thereabouts. Most people can skim at at least double that. Few people can read aloud (or understand speech) at anywhere near 50 words per minute. Demanding that Congressmen "listen to a reading of every bill" is therefore a stupid waste of congressional time.

But beyond that, I don't think you have any idea how large documents are put together -- in industry, in academia, or in government. A complex bill like the TARP bill or the current health care proposal is drafted in gross by the legislators and voted on as a body, but the detailed writing is done by individual staff members who report to specific congressmen who have been tapped to draft specific sections. And the individual writing is done by domain experts who know what the relevant legal terms-of-art are to use.

In that regard, it's more or less like putting together an encyclopedia (which, again, has probably never been read in its entirety by anyone, including the "editor.") What the editor does do, though, is review the individual articles that are put together, or in many cases reviews the reports of the sub-editors who have put together groups of articles, and sign off on the package as a whole.

That's also how many major contracts are drafted in industry. There's a reason that the term "executive summary" was created; the president of a large company will not typically read the documents he signs. He trusts that his lawyers have made the documents say what he wants them to say, and that the summary accurately reflects what they do say.

Why do you assume that Citibank can pick competent staff lawyers, but that Senators can't?
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Old 13th November 2009, 01:28 PM   #35
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drkitten said
Quote:
And the most important part about not counting the laws is the that the "USA government" will NOT become more self-consistent and logical and efficient if someone tries to count all the laws.

I.e. it's totally wasted effort.
In computer programming, we call that data corruption caused by improper use of threads. Its the same idea. The parts of the government create contradicting laws because they are not organized enough to communicate their plans to eachother.

Counting certain categories of laws in USA, for a short time, puts a mutex on those categories. Its not a permanent mutex because the prize is only given once per category, but the important effect is people start to know it can be done and will cause it to be done again.

I will quote from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutex

Quote:
Mutual exclusion (often abbreviated to mutex) algorithms are used in concurrent programming to avoid the simultaneous use of a common resource, such as a global variable, by pieces of computer code called critical sections. A critical section is a piece of code where a process or thread accesses a common resource. The critical section by itself is not a mechanism or algorithm for mutual exclusion. A program, process, or thread can have critical section in it without any mechanism or algorithm, which implements mutual exclusion.

Examples of such resources are fine-grained flags, counters or queues, used to communicate between code that runs concurrently, such as an application and its interrupt handlers. The synchronization of access to those resources is an acute problem because a thread can be stopped or started at any time.

To illustrate: suppose a section of code is altering a piece of data over several program steps, when another thread, perhaps triggered by some unpredictable event, starts executing. If this second thread reads from the same piece of data, the data, which is in the process of being overwritten, is in an inconsistent and unpredictable state. If the second thread tries overwriting that data, the ensuing state will probably be unrecoverable. These shared data being accessed by critical sections of code, must therefore be protected, so that other processes which read from or write to the chunk of data are excluded from running.

A mutex is also a common name for a program object that negotiates mutual exclusion among threads, also called a lock.

Quote:
Er,.... no. The first things about fixing the economy is getting the credit freeze dealt with (which has been done), getting a bottom established under industrial production (which has been done), and getting employment back under control (which has not been done but is apparently the project for December according to recent reports).
Those things are also important, but in my opinion, the fastest way to fix them is to count 20 categories of "laws" as I described above.


Quote:
Merely "counting" things won't help at all, since counting does not by itself create change. You can certainly use the numbers that you get from counting to help motivate change (that's why the federal budget deficit, for example, is known to the penny and why the budget hawks keep trotting it out), but simply knowing the number does nothing.
Some interpretations of quantum physics say observing things is the most effective way to change them. If you do not like the way it is, observe it a different way and it becomes real. If you want to argue with that, then theres much smarter physics researchers for that, and they will tell you it does apply to USA laws in the same way it applies to all of reality.


Quote:
So in other words, they're already doing what you want (counting the Federal laws that are passed) and it hasn't helped.
They have done what I wanted (counted and numbered and organized some of the laws). Counting more of them will make the USA government more self-consistent and logical and efficient.

Quote:
Indeed, they've been counting federal laws for a hell of a long time (I think the tradition may go back to Public Law 1-1), and despite the fact that it's relatively simple to know exactly how many public laws have been passed, no one a) knows, or b) cares -- and the number of laws continues to grow by hundreds each year.

In other words, YOUR IDEA DEMONSTRABLY WON'T WORK.
Its easy to say its been counted, but when I create the "USA Quantum Law Challenge", will you prove that specific question is even or odd and take the money prize? I want you to take the prizes... after I write the official version.

But the questions and bigger prizes that follow that easy question will each be 2 times as hard as the last, about more detailed counting (is even or odd).

A person who understands the government as well as you, drkitten, should be able to take the bigger prizes easier than most others. Good luck.


Quote:
And that was also a really stupid idea, that was -- correctly -- shot down in flames.

First, there's a big difference between "reading" and "reading aloud"; most people can comfortably read for comprehension at 400wpm or so, a word every fifth of a second or thereabouts. Most people can skim at at least double that. Few people can read aloud (or understand speech) at anywhere near 50 words per minute. Demanding that Congressmen "listen to a reading of every bill" is therefore a stupid waste of congressional time.

But beyond that, I don't think you have any idea how large documents are put together -- in industry, in academia, or in government. A complex bill like the TARP bill or the current health care proposal is drafted in gross by the legislators and voted on as a body, but the detailed writing is done by individual staff members who report to specific congressmen who have been tapped to draft specific sections. And the individual writing is done by domain experts who know what the relevant legal terms-of-art are to use.

In that regard, it's more or less like putting together an encyclopedia (which, again, has probably never been read in its entirety by anyone, including the "editor.") What the editor does do, though, is review the individual articles that are put together, or in many cases reviews the reports of the sub-editors who have put together groups of articles, and sign off on the package as a whole.
I understand that the work of writing and editing and interpreting laws is distributed to many people then assembled and voted on.

In my opinion, it should be much harder for Congress to pass laws than the "Read The Bills Act" proposed. For example, I think each member of Congress should have to recite each whole law from memory, correct on each word, and then have to answer basic questions about the new law to prove they understand it, and automatically vote NO on that law if they recite it wrong or answer any question wrong. But its not my choice. Its Congresss choice. It should be the people of USAs choice (as the Constitution says, the people should tell the government what to do and what not to do). In my opinion, the total laws of USA should be much smaller and designed better so lots of exceptions are not needed. The exceptions to the laws are most of the size. Your job would not be obsolete. It would simply focus on accuracy instead of size of laws.


Quote:
That's also how many major contracts are drafted in industry. There's a reason that the term "executive summary" was created; the president of a large company will not typically read the documents he signs. He trusts that his lawyers have made the documents say what he wants them to say, and that the summary accurately reflects what they do say.

Why do you assume that Citibank can pick competent staff lawyers, but that Senators can't?
Thats not a good system either. Most contracts are so long that people choose not to read them before they sign them. Its the same problem as Congress not reading laws before passing them.

Most of the laws of USA, and most of the things in those contracts, are not similar to what the people of USA (or the people who sign those contracts) want. For example, people often sign a contract and are later surprised about extra fees coming at unexpected times, then they are told to read the contract next time. I plan to help them read that contract by indirectly causing it to be smaller. The contract writers asked for it.

We agree its the same kind of system. You say its a good system. I say its not, and I plan to observe it as even or odd to cause it to be more consistent, logical, and efficient. I plan to indirectly fix both of those with the "USA Quantum Law Challenge". Will you help by counting and answering even or odd and taking the prize money?
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Old 13th November 2009, 01:34 PM   #36
JoeTheJuggler
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I asked why not define "laws" or any category of laws in English rather than in Lisp, and got this reply:
Originally Posted by BenRayfield View Post
Of course there will have to be some words, but most of it I will try to define in the style of lambda (the programming style normally done in Lisp). Its very important to define the categories and rules of the "USA Quantum Law Challenge" using the least number of words possible because every word is a security-vulnerability in the same way that the words "choose" and "consent" "underage" and "statutory" are security vulnerabilities. The USA government attacked that security vulnerability by redefining a law to include the word "consent" instead of the idea of "choose" and through its use of the security vulnerability was able to extremely increase the punishment for underage sex. Why change what the law says when you can just substitute a synonym (word that means the same thing) and redefine the synonym while most people are not paying attention. Every word in a technical statement, if applied to any important process in the government, will certainly be attacked as a security vulnerability, therefore I choose to use the least number of words possible when I write the official version of the "USA Quantum Law Challenge". In that way, the technical agreements and effects I will design will be significantly more secure than the laws that govern USAs National Security Agency (which appear to change whenever the rich and powerful people want them to). Lambda.
So. . . .why not define "laws" or categories of laws in English rather than in Lisp?


Quote:
I do not care if the number is in base 2 or not.
Yes you do. You specified it in several places including in the OP where you said:
Quote:
Because my theory is that nobody knows, and if anybody proved it and we started to know how many laws there were in USA (just the last base-2 digit), then the USA government would have to become extremely more self-consistent and logical before it could be counted.
Also when you were asked what "Quantum" has to do with anything, you replied that it's because the result is binary (odd or even). Which is not the standard meaning of the word "quantum" by any stretch.


Quote:
What I said is no more insane than people who say an invisible and all-powerful life form talks to them everyday but they are the only one who can hear it.
I'll grant you that. And people who believe that should also consult a mental health professional. (While I'm not fan of conventional religion, it doesn't fit that description.)

Quote:
I am not saying it does or does not happen, but what I said sounds much easier to believe.
No it's not. Although since what you say is mostly rambling and incoherent, so whether it's easier or not to believe is really a moot point.
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Old 13th November 2009, 01:49 PM   #37
drkitten
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Originally Posted by BenRayfield View Post

In computer programming, we call that data corruption caused by improper use of threads.
No, we don't. But in software engineering, we will frequently call it "ignoring paperwork because we don't give a flying ****"

Quote:
The parts of the government create contradicting laws because they are not organized enough to communicate their plans to eachother.
But nothing you've mentioned so far has alleged contradiction, and nothing that you've proposed would prevent contradiction.

As it happens, there is a system in place to resolve contradictory laws -- it's called the judiciary, and it's served that purpose for more than 200 years.

Quote:
Counting certain categories of laws in USA, for a short time, puts a mutex on those categories.
No, it won't. Because no one will respect the mutex semantics -- they've no reason to -- and so laws will continue to change even while some poor boob is trying to count them.


Quote:
Some interpretations of quantum physics say observing things is the most effective way to change them.
Yes, but those interpretations are obviously wrong as any actual physicist will tell you. There are lots of people out there suggesting all sorts of aspects of quantum drivel.

Quote:
If you want to argue with that, then theres much smarter physics researchers for that, and they will tell you it does apply to USA laws in the same way it applies to all of reality.
Er, no, they won't.




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Its easy to say its been counted, but when I create the "USA Quantum Law Challenge", will you prove that specific question is even or odd and take the money prize?
Probably not. A mere million isn't worth the headache of debugging your "challenge" for you.

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I understand that the work of writing and editing and interpreting laws is distributed to many people then assembled and voted on.
That's right. And the person who votes often isn't the person who writes, because in many cases, the person who votes doesn't have the necessary expertise (which is why he hired staff in the first place).

Quote:
Thats not a good system either. Most contracts are so long that people choose not to read them before they sign them.
But that's not an issue in the corporate world; all of the contracts have been read in detail before they are signed.

It's just that usually the person who signs isn't the same as the one who read -- or wrote. Again, different areas of expertise, which is why "corporate counsel" exists in the first place.

Basically, you're assuming that Congress (and major corporations) are as unprofessional and badly staffed as you yourself are. I assure you that neither is true.

Quote:
We agree its the same kind of system. You say its a good system. I say its not, and I plan to observe it as even or odd to cause it to be more consistent, logical, and efficient. I plan to indirectly fix both of those with the "USA Quantum Law Challenge". Will you help by counting and answering even or odd and taking the prize money?
No. I will not participate in an exercise that cannot even in theory achieve its stated purpose.
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Old 13th November 2009, 01:50 PM   #38
JoeTheJuggler
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Originally Posted by BenRayfield View Post
My theory is that if there is any small thing in Earths past that extremely works against a future where all the laws and regulations etc are counted, then that small thing in Earths past would be changed as a result of the continuous multiverse branching (quantum wavefunction) so that it becomes possible a small amount more, but probably that will not be necessary because simply observing the number of laws (in 10 to 30 questions and prizes of exponentially increasing difficulty) will be enough to get it done without the need for any quantum math.

So you're suggesting that some kind of cash-prize challenge will somehow result in changing the past?

I suggest this thread be moved out of Politics and into General Skepticism (or perhaps Humor, because I'm beginning to think maybe Ben's just having fun with us).
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Old 13th November 2009, 04:28 PM   #39
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To JoeTheJuggler, I will quote the part of my writing most relevant to what you said.

Quote:
Most new theories about physics sound insane. Thats is a statement about the person who hears them, not about the theories.

It can work with or without quantum physics and multiverses. Thats just a possible optimization that it may or may not be able to test.
Forget the physics. There are very simple reasons it will work, and the physics speculations are a different subject that maybe could be done at the same time.

I am serious about the "USA Quantum Law Challenge". I am writing an email to the Lifeboat Foundation, which collects money for various unusal charities that are all important to the future of Earth. I'll quote from the email I'm sending to them:

Quote:
It would be a series of charities, all called "USA Quantum Law Challenge". Basically each charity challenges anyone to count (even or odd) certain categories of laws or other things, and they win a money prize for proving that quantity is even or odd, and the indirect effects of that are important to the future of Earth.

Please read the informal plan for it at this URL, and/or read the summary below:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=159047
(In the "Politics" section, thread title: "USA Quantum Law Challenge")


=============
===PURPOSE===

The purpose is to indirectly cause the USA government to become more self-consistent, logical, and efficient. Indirect effects of that would probably include the USA government saving trillions of dollars per year, less people going to jail for breaking laws that contradict other laws, more logical thinking about when to use nuclear weapons and other dangerous things, and generally better government. Because of USA's unique relationship with many other countries, these improvements would flow to most other parts of Earth too. Theoretically it could indirectly and gradually solve many of Earth's biggest problems.


==============================
===WHAT DOES THE NAME MEAN?===

The name includes the word "quantum", but no quantum math is necessary for it to work. Some of the ideas of quantum physics are very similar to the ideas that make the "USA Quantum Law Challenge" work, so its more of a description than a theory of physics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qubit

A quantum qubit for each category of "law" I will define. In a small way, it may be related to one of my theories about quantum physics and multiverses (read about it at that forum page), but its not necessary. There are simple logical reasons this will work. Most of those reasons are described at that forum page, but I will summarize below.

That forum is at the "James Randi Educational Foundation". James Randi created the "$1 Million Paranormal Challenge". Because of the similarity of how I am designing the "USA Quantum Law Challenge", I named it similarly. It does not challenge any laws. It only counts them and answers "even" or "odd" for that quantity.


=======================
===HOW DOES IT WORK?===

I will unambiguously (mostly in the style of lambda programming, with a few english words) define some categories of things. Those things may be laws, similar to laws, or anything else, but I will start with things most people would call a "law". I will avoid vague words like "law" because it would certainly lead to arguments over what counts as a law. It must be unambiguous.

For each category, the Lifeboat Foundation should add 1 charity account, where anyone can donate money. The money stays there until it is won by someone. That person wins all that money. Then, that same charity can be refilled and can be won again the same way, but only after the quantity of that category changes.

Each category has 1 question and 1 money prize (the charity). The question is always the following:

"Choose any arbitrary time in the future. Is the integer quantity of things in the category an odd number? Or is it an even number? Answer even or odd but not both, and prove it to the standards of published peer-reviewed science, and after 3 months, if the peer-review process proves no flaws in your proof, you receive the money prize."

A quantum physicist would say it this way: You won the money by observing the evenness or oddness to collapse the wavefunction, and it may not have been even or odd until you proved it. It may have been in superposition of simultaneous evenness and oddness.

My theory is that the USA government is so disorganized and confused about what itself is doing and thinking and planning that it would be very hard for it to count (and prove even or odd) most categories that we would define.

Other people could add categories later, but I will propose a few to start with. For each category, the first time it is won, and the money received by the winner, a new category should be created that is 2 times as hard to count (and prove even or odd). People may choose to donate to the old or new categories. As harder categories continue to be counted, confidence is gained in the "USA Quantum Law Challenge" as a working system, and more money will be donated and won, and more things counted and proven even or odd. The "purpose" I wrote above would eventually be accomplished that way.


================================================== ======
===These are the categories I recommend we start with===

USA Quantum Law Challenge - General funds can go to any category Lifeboat thinks is best.

USA Quantum Law Challenge - Quantity of letters in USA's Constitution. This one is very easy because the first one has to be easy to get it started. The harder it is, the bigger the money prize will probably become before somebody wins it.

USA Quantum Law Challenge - Even-or-odd-Quantity of federal laws

USA Quantum Law Challenge - Even-or-odd-Quantity of letters in all federal laws.

USA Quantum Law Challenge - Even-or-odd-Quantity of state laws, all states combined, including DC.

USA Quantum Law Challenge - Even-or-odd-Quantity of letters in all state laws, all states combined, including DC.

USA Quantum Law Challenge - Even-or-odd-Quantity of laws the president of USA must obey (no immunity).

USA Quantum Law Challenge - Even-or-odd-Quantity of laws Congress must obey (no immunity).

USA Quantum Law Challenge - Even-or-odd-Quantity of video-cameras in "Area 51".

USA Quantum Law Challenge - Even-or-odd-Quantity of video-cameras in the Whitehouse.

USA Quantum Law Challenge - Even-or-odd-Quantity of video-cameras in the Pentagon.

USA Quantum Law Challenge - Even-or-odd-Quantity of letters in the president of USA's police record.

USA Quantum Law Challenge - Even-or-odd-Quantity of government employees.

USA Quantum Law Challenge - Even-or-odd-Quantity of government employees that have ever been found guilty of a violent crime.


============================
===About those categories===

For all of those categories, prove the quantity is even or odd, and you win the prize. It is not possible for this to be a danger to "national security", even if it counts secret laws or secret things, because only "even" or "odd" has to be proven, and that can sometimes be done in math without proving the actual quantity. I do not know how to prove these things without knowing the quantity, but I do not know it can not be done either. Only requiring "even" or "odd" is an untouchable defense against "national security" accusations. I am not asking anyone to violate "national security", but it would be none of my business if they caused something to be declassified and to stop being "national security" and then counted it and said "even" or "odd". It has to be proven up to the standards of published peer-reviewed science (and the 3 month delay), but there are no limits on how to prove it other than that.

I'll give an example: If you prove that the quantity of laws the president of USA has to obey (no immunity) is an odd number, then indirectly he would have to obey laws more often. You can quantum-observe that into reality just by proving even or odd.
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Old 13th November 2009, 04:46 PM   #40
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Mod Info Not really about politics, so moved to Social Issues and Current Events.
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