ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags bigfoot , Bob Gimlin , Bob Heironimus , Patterson-Gimlin film , Roger Patterson

Reply
Old 22nd March 2010, 06:24 PM   #681
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 15,675
Except that there is no actual evidence of a 41" step, is there?

IIRC, the film and stills of the trackway do not show a 41" step.

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/films/pgf_sequence.htm
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2010, 07:21 PM   #682
RayG
Master Poster
 
RayG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,605
Don't know about anyone else, but my walking strides now are NOT the same length they were 30 years ago.

RayG
__________________
Tell ya what. I'll hold my tongue as long as you stick to facts.
--------------------
Scrutatio Et Quaestio
RayG is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2010, 07:24 PM   #683
River
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,458
Originally Posted by inn View Post
Since Sweaty is on everyone's ignore list, I guess I better step in and keep the graphics coming. Sure we can measure limbs proportions, etc. to see if Bob H fits in the suit, but let's switch gears a bit and look at Bob's walk. The "flip" in Bob's step comes no where near to matching the 90 degree leg lift that Patty exhibits in several frames. Bob H certainly has latched onto his "compliant" gait in the film tho.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16.../BHleglift.gif

If Bob (as Patty) made the trackway, then his steps were 41" long. At least 1 step was anyway.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...an/Image79.gif

JREF member Tube was able to match and exceed this step length in soft sand, but he certainly didn't look natural doing it. AFAIK Bob H has never mentioned that he took extra long strides in the sand. But he would have had to purposefully take longer strides inside a bulky suit to be Patty. His only comments were that he has the same walk as Patty and his demos never showed a long step length. IMO, this is a glaring omission.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...Steplength.gif

This is what Bob would look like if he took 41" steps.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...an/stride2.gif

IMO, the figure in the PGF made the tracks, guy in a suit or whatever. I don't think they were made later. The figure demonstrated a 41" step length in at least 1 frame of the PGF. Did Bob H take 41" steps? Kit, would you please ask him, without any prompting?
There is no way that happened. Track depth says it all. (which you can compare to Patterson standing right next to them, regardless of if you try to compare the "horse tracks" as Gimlin describes in comparison) Simply put, the tracks are far too deep to have been left by the dude in a suit. (or by "patty" if it were a real creature) Not to mention, look at the shape of the foot in the tracks. They are not even from the same "foot". (as shown by parcher I believe)

Trackway was faked.

Last edited by River; 22nd March 2010 at 07:26 PM.
River is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2010, 07:51 PM   #684
inn
Muse
 
inn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 612
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Except that there is no actual evidence of a 41" step, is there?

IIRC, the film and stills of the trackway do not show a 41" step.

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/films/pgf_sequence.htm
Yes they do, 41" on the screws. At least this step is.

inn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2010, 08:17 PM   #685
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 15,675
Originally Posted by inn View Post
Yes they do, 41" on the screws. At least this step is.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...eel2tracks.gif
Maybe 30"... no way it's 41" if that's a 14.5" long foot....

Not buying 41 inches for a nickel...


Also, there's no actual connection between that trackway and Patty that I know of...
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

Last edited by LTC8K6; 22nd March 2010 at 08:19 PM.
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2010, 08:25 PM   #686
inn
Muse
 
inn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 612
Originally Posted by River View Post
There is no way that happened. Track depth says it all. (which you can compare to Patterson standing right next to them, regardless of if you try to compare the "horse tracks" as Gimlin describes in comparison) Simply put, the tracks are far too deep to have been left by the dude in a suit. (or by "patty" if it were a real creature) Not to mention, look at the shape of the foot in the tracks. They are not even from the same "foot". (as shown by parcher I believe)

Trackway was faked.
Looks like the same foot to me.



Then how do you make deep tracks? Did Roger piggy back on Gimlin? You only have gravity to work with. Stamped with a sledge hammer? At least some of these tracks were made by a rolling foot, not a stamp.



It would have been far easier to just have Bob H make the tracks while filming the PGF, then make 1 or 2 deeper (if they even were deeper), then cast the flat ones. Erasing Bob H's tracks then creating a convincing trackway might not be as easy as you think. Then you have to remove your own tracks. Way more work that's for sure. I'm going with that Occam dude until better info comes along. It doesn't mean it wasn't a guy in a suit, it would just exclude Bob H from being the guy. He is the one who claimed that Roger and Bob went back to fake the tracks, weeks later. If the PGF was actually filmed on Oct 20th, then Bob H is busted.

How "realistic" are the tracks anyway? Are they consistent with 2 stamps, a lefty and righty? And how much variance was there between those stamped tracks?


Last edited by inn; 22nd March 2010 at 08:47 PM.
inn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2010, 08:33 PM   #687
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 10,409
Kitakaze, ask BH where is the rest of the scene with him walking with the baseball cap. This one...


__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2010, 08:37 PM   #688
inn
Muse
 
inn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 612
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Maybe 30"... no way it's 41" if that's a 14.5" long foot....

Not buying 41 inches for a nickel...


Also, there's no actual connection between that trackway and Patty that I know of...
BFF member Jack, measured it with his AutoCAD program. A ruler will do tho.

inn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2010, 09:02 PM   #689
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 15,675
Quote:
BFF member Jack, measured it with his AutoCAD program. A ruler will do tho.
Where'd the 14.46" come from?

Again, there's no demonstrated connection to Patty, and no evidence that the composition is accurate. This is worse than sweaty's crayons, imo.
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

Last edited by LTC8K6; 22nd March 2010 at 09:04 PM.
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd March 2010, 09:31 PM   #690
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 15,675
http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.p...pic=27837&st=0

The problems with those stills and composites are covered well in this bff thread.
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2010, 12:25 AM   #691
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 9,539
Originally Posted by inn View Post
Did Bob H take 41" steps? Kit, would you please ask him, without any prompting?
Absolutely. I would probably ask him like, "So, Bob, tell me about the walk in the suit. All that padding and the slipper things. You just did the walk like Roger showed you? How was it different from the way you normally walk? Did you have to extert yourself in anyway? Was it uncomfortable maintaining the posture or hard to walk like that?"

Regarding my next discussion with Bob, I got pounced on by some type of Canadian super cold, which I'm just getting over now, but I'm expecting over the next two weeks to be swamped with some translating work. This Wednesday may be the only daytime that I have to call Bob, so I'll try for then.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2010, 06:46 AM   #692
Correa Neto
Philosopher
 
Correa Neto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,180
You might also ask him if he knows if Patterson and Gimlim faked the tracks they casted. In other words- does he knows if those tracks are or not those he may have made during PGF shooting.

Get well soon!
__________________
Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me:
Together we can find the cure
Oh, and together we can find a cure to religion too
Correa Neto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2010, 08:50 AM   #693
River
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,458
Originally Posted by inn View Post
Looks like the same foot to me.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16.../Pattyfoot.gif

Then how do you make deep tracks? Did Roger piggy back on Gimlin? You only have gravity to work with. Stamped with a sledge hammer? At least some of these tracks were made by a rolling foot, not a stamp.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16..._side_view.gif

It would have been far easier to just have Bob H make the tracks while filming the PGF, then make 1 or 2 deeper (if they even were deeper), then cast the flat ones. Erasing Bob H's tracks then creating a convincing trackway might not be as easy as you think. Then you have to remove your own tracks. Way more work that's for sure. I'm going with that Occam dude until better info comes along. It doesn't mean it wasn't a guy in a suit, it would just exclude Bob H from being the guy. He is the one who claimed that Roger and Bob went back to fake the tracks, weeks later. If the PGF was actually filmed on Oct 20th, then Bob H is busted.

How "realistic" are the tracks anyway? Are they consistent with 2 stamps, a lefty and righty? And how much variance was there between those stamped tracks?

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...ty_tracks2.gif
We've argued these points before. The same things apply now. Would you agree that if the subject shown in the film was "real" that it would leave less of an impression in the ground of a human the same height/weight?

It would have to... considering the foot size in comparison to a humans foot size of the same height/weight. The subject depicted in the film has quite large feet when comparing to a human of equal height (using the foot as a ruler method, since you MUST consider this as a decent ruler if the creature is to be considered authentic) This has been pointed out previously, yet you choose to ignore it. Also Gimlin mentions that his horse tracks were not as deep as "pattys" tracks. Michael Dennet pointed this out very eloquently in an article as well. You also seem to be ignoring this.

You can see in this footage that was alleged to be from the "second reel" some tracks near those left by "patty" that appear to be horse tracks. Perhaps those that Gimlin describes? Even if you dont subscribe to that, you can compare them directly to Patterson standing/kneeling right next to the tracks in the same substrate on the same day. (allegedly)

As to how "I" would fake tracks, I wouldnt. But perhaps when Patterson told Krantz how he had previously faked tracks, they were done so in that fashion.

Quote:
on Page 32 of 'Big Footprints' by Grover S. Krantz 1992 2nd paragraph: Krantz writes:

'The shape of a footprint can be dug into the ground with the fingers and/or a hand tool, the interior pressed flat, and it can then be photographed or cast in plaster. My first footprint cast was made by a student in just this manner (Fig.10). Roger Patterson told me he did this once in order to get a movie of himself pouring a plaster cast for the documentary he was making. (A few days later, he filmed the actual Sasquatch; See Chapter 4).'

You might also consider, since he stated to Krantz that he had fabricated those tracks - he knew how to do so. Also, since he had filmed himself doing so, where is the footage of it? According to what Patterson told Krantz, there should be film of Patterson casting those fake tracks in the bluff creek area. (had to be in that area, according to their given timeline)

So, wheres the footage of the fabricated tracks being cast? According to Pattersons story there were ONLY two reels of film shot in bluff creek correct?

Of course if you choose to ignore the track depth, and the lack of footage containing Patterson casting those fake tracks he made... as well as those tracks do not match each other as well as you would like to think (which has been pointed out previously, if you wish I can do overlays of them) then sure....maybe you can believe that Heironimus, or some other person in a suit left these extremely deep tracks, that were 14 inches long. uh... yeah.

Trackway was definitely faked, and its some of the best evidence that proves this film to be a hoax. Regardless of any of the circumstantial evidence regarding their timeline or background story its pretty damning and clear physical evidence IMHO.

Last edited by River; 23rd March 2010 at 08:53 AM.
River is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2010, 09:51 AM   #694
SweatyYeti
Illuminator
 
SweatyYeti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
River wrote:
Quote:
Trackway was definitely faked

One major problem with the 'hand-made' footprints theory.....Roger, or whoever, would have had to 'erase' his hand and knee prints from around the tracks....but, in this image, the ground doesn't look 'smoothed over', in the least....it's quite natural, and rough looking...






Quote:
The subject depicted in the film has quite large feet when comparing to a human of equal height

Of 'equal height'...but not 'equal weight'......Patty's weight has been estimated by Krantz, ond others, to be in the 600 pound range.



Also...there's plenty of evidence that Patty had flexible feet, and that her feet impacted the ground un-evenly...(which would have distributed her weight over a much smaller area)...










And.........then there's the laughable idea that Roger would continue making a trackway for a long distance after the filming stopped....with absolutely nothing to gain from doing so.....and, at no point along this extremely long trackway was there any sign that the ground around the tracks had been smoothed over.

How....realistically...could he have accomplished such a feet/feat?


The 'faked trackway' theory is laughably ridiculous.
__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."

Last edited by SweatyYeti; 23rd March 2010 at 10:05 AM.
SweatyYeti is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2010, 10:01 AM   #695
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 13,932
Originally Posted by inn View Post
...Then how do you make deep tracks?
I noticed you asked the same question at BFF ...
There are probably as many ways as you can imagine..

Here is one way ..

You dig out a rough shape by hand ( just like Roger described ), then you use your rubber foot, or a cast from previous endeavors, to add the details.




P.S.

I see Sweaty just added his argument from incredulity ..

I may be the only one who doesn't have you on ignore Sweaty, so don't start cluttering up the thread ..
__________________
" What if the Hokey Pokey is what it's all about? "

Prove your computer is not a wimp ! Join Team 13232 !

Last edited by Skeptical Greg; 23rd March 2010 at 10:07 AM.
Skeptical Greg is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2010, 10:04 AM   #696
Drewbot
Illuminator
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,493
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
The 'faked trackway' theory is laughably ridiculous.
Much more laughably ridiculous, than a hairy, bipedal, beast, with a depressed startle reflex, age-related-foot-morphing capabilities, a propensity to porpoise when fishing for salmon, and an elusive nature surpassed only by it's desire to make it's location known through; howling, rock throwing and stealing cans from picnic tables, creating the tracks.
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2010, 10:06 AM   #697
SweatyYeti
Illuminator
 
SweatyYeti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I noticed you asked the same question at BFF ...
There are probably as many ways as you can imagine..

Here is one way ..

You dig out a rough shape by hand ( just like Roger described ), then you use your rubber foot, or cast from previous endeavors to add the details.

You dig out a rough shape by hand ( just like Roger described ), then you use your rubber foot, or cast from previous endeavors to add the details...and leave no trace of your knee and hand prints, or a smoothed-over ground.


Fixed.
__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."
SweatyYeti is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2010, 10:08 AM   #698
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 10,409
During the radio show with Tom Biscardi, Bob Heironimus said that P&G began making the faked trackway right after he left to ship the film using "plaster casts" pushed into the ground.

Hand, knee and footprints all around the "Bigfoot tracks" would not elicit proclamations of fakery from Laverty or Titmus. Such could be explained as close inspection of the tracks and to visually determine which would be best for plaster casting. It's a win-win situation for P&G when Bigfooter Titmus is the witness who decides if the trackway was faked. Oh boy, that's an unbiased opinion. Regardless, Titmus didn't report seeing workboot treadmarks next to the famous track. He should have known P&G would be wearing cowboy boots and said "I'm not sure if the trackway has been tampered or changed or what, because I'm seeing boot treadmarks that didn't come from Roger or Bob. Hmmm..."
Attached Images
File Type: jpg MTB with bootprint.jpg (9.9 KB, 222 views)
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2010, 10:11 AM   #699
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 10,409
Originally Posted by SweatyYeti View Post
You dig out a rough shape by hand ( just like Roger described ), then you use your rubber foot, or cast from previous endeavors to add the details...and leave no trace of your knee and hand prints, or a smoothed-over ground.


Fixed.

Titmus wasn't in the mood to report such details.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2010, 10:11 AM   #700
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 13,932
Look up ' incredulous ' Sweaty ..

You understanding how something was done, is inversely proportional to the likelihood that it was..
__________________
" What if the Hokey Pokey is what it's all about? "

Prove your computer is not a wimp ! Join Team 13232 !
Skeptical Greg is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2010, 10:17 AM   #701
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 10,409
These are supposed to be right and left from Patty. It's really quite ridiculous. The PGF is a fantasy for a smallish cult of believers.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg titmuscompare 2.jpg (76.1 KB, 7 views)
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2010, 10:19 AM   #702
Drewbot
Illuminator
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,493
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
These are supposed to be right and left from Patty. It's really quite ridiculous. The PGF is a fantasy for a smallish cult of believers.
The PGF is the physical representation of the fantasy of a smallish cult of believers.
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2010, 10:27 AM   #703
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 15,675
Given the scenario as told by Rog and Bob, I would expect to see evidence of inspection of the tracks. So, seeing hand prints, boot prints, knee marks, etc., would not cause me to think "hoax".

Also, it rained heavily. So many of these marks would have been removed.

The straight line on only one side of the Laverty track is quite interesting, though.

And WP's point about the clear boot print makes a lot of sense. Titmus should have remarked on it.
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2010, 05:01 PM   #704
inn
Muse
 
inn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 612
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
These are supposed to be right and left from Patty. It's really quite ridiculous. The PGF is a fantasy for a smallish cult of believers.
How many stamps were used and how come the stamps were so varied? I wonder if the substrate had anything to do with it?
inn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2010, 07:53 PM   #705
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 15,675
I might only use a stamping method to make one or two deep tracks to plant the impression of great weight to match the legend. The rest of the tracks don't matter too much. It's the deep tracks that "prove" it's too heavy to be a human. The rest of the tracks are easy peasy, imo.
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2010, 09:20 PM   #706
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 9,539
Originally Posted by Correa Neto View Post
You might also ask him if he knows if Patterson and Gimlim faked the tracks they casted. In other words- does he knows if those tracks are or not those he may have made during PGF shooting.

Get well soon!
Bob has already stated for the record that once he was done doing his bit in the suit that Patterson and Gimlin told him that he had to go and they needed to go create the tracks.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2010, 11:56 AM   #707
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 10,409
Originally Posted by inn View Post
How many stamps were used and how come the stamps were so varied? I wonder if the substrate had anything to do with it?
It doesn't matter. The widely varied morphology and sizes of the tracks (casts) shows that they weren't all produced by a single living bipedal hominoid striding across sand.

What may have been done (but not limited to)...

1. Plaster and/or concrete "casts" were used to "stamp" an impression into the sand. These could have been "rolled around" somewhat as well.

2. Sand scooped out in the general shape/size of the foot before stamping to give illusion of great depth (weight).

3. Impressions made by the guy in the suit (GITS) during the filming were used as is or modified, or a combination. Any GITS footprint could have been scooped out and then stamped so that the original GITS impression was completely obliterated and replaced by a fabricated one.

4. The leg portion (or even just the feet) of the costume was used after the filming to perfect any GITS impression left after the filming. This could have been done days or weeks later. You don't need the entire costume to hoax a trackway - just the feet.

5. Any impression made by any method can be customized using fingers, feet, spoons or any other kind of tool or device.

6. The two "Patty casts" that Patterson displayed may not have come from the trackway that was observed by Laverty & Titmus. They did report seeing plaster residue in some tracks, but this is no guarantee that what Roger displayed was exactly what was pulled out of those "residue impressions".

7. Titmus may have "helped" any given track before pouring the plaster. His testimony about what he saw may not have been honest.

8. Any other methods may have been employed that we have not been able to imagine.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2010, 12:53 PM   #708
SweatyYeti
Illuminator
 
SweatyYeti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
Bob has already stated for the record that once he was done doing his bit in the suit that Patterson and Gimlin told him that he had to go and they needed to go create the tracks.

According to this article...


http://sasquatchresearch.net/billmiller.html


....Heironimus had this different version of what they did after the filming...


Quote:
Heironimus told Long that the three men rode back to Patterson and Gimlins camp and hung around there together for a while before Heironimus eventually left to go back to Washington.

So which statement did Bob actually make...or, did he contradict himself......again?
__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."
SweatyYeti is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2010, 09:42 PM   #709
wolftrax
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 216
Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
I think it was inn or Wolf that made the point that if it wasn't for all the banter with Sweaty, the thread would be a goldmine of education.

Looking back over the pages, how many technicolour rants have I incited because I enjoyed playing with the woo far too much? How much better would this thread be if I didn't encourage Sweaty?
It was me that said that, but don't get me wrong, I enjoyed your posts about Long and Bob H, etc. It's just when I see you address a post to Sweaty, I just skim right over because I can't read his BS. I guess I'm getting old, or have read enough of the more subtle BS, that when I see a really obvious heaping stinking pile of BS I just keep on moving.

And somewhere in your replies to him you might actually be addressing me, or somebody else, or making a really good point and I'd totally miss it, and that's why I was saying if nobody responded to him it'd be great, I'd just keep skipping his posts and continue on a great conversation and catch those good points you would make.

I understand what you're doing with him. No way would I say you are responsible for the garbage he keeps putting on here. I fully understand the danger of people putting out misinformation and the responsibility to stop it before it becomes wide spread belief. So I don't blame you at all for showing that it's all crap.

I really think that Sweaty should be restricted to one thread, his very own thread where he can post as many distorted and incorrectly measured images as possible filled with his delusional ramblings, and people's responses to this are focused in his thread. It could be about any Bigfoot thing he felt like doing at the time. Seeing how important he feels his work is, and he is, he'd probably feel like he was getting the respect he deserved, and he would be right.
wolftrax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2010, 04:35 AM   #710
SweatyYeti
Illuminator
 
SweatyYeti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
wolftrax wrote:
Quote:
So I don't blame you at all for showing that it's all crap.

So I don't blame you at all for saying that it's all crap.


All fixed.
__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."
SweatyYeti is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th March 2010, 09:01 PM   #711
SweatyYeti
Illuminator
 
SweatyYeti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
As promised........here are some numbers on the 'Bob/Patty-width stretched' comparison...





Patty's elbow-reach measures about 26"....which is approx. 5-6" beyond the maximum reach, for Bob's elbows...(with his arm extended fully horizontal.)


There would need to be a source of major error to account for this difference, if Bob were actually Patty........but, sadly....(for the "critical thinkers")....there is none.
While there may be some amount of error in Patty's measurement...it's nowhere near enough to account for the difference.


I'll demonstrate this to be true, with a physical model....a foam-padded 'inner core', replicating Patty's upper-torso dimensions.
__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."

Last edited by SweatyYeti; 26th March 2010 at 09:04 PM.
SweatyYeti is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th March 2010, 09:30 PM   #712
HarryHenderson
Muse
 
HarryHenderson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 982
How's it go again....oh my ******* gawd?!
__________________
"The KISS thing, when you really look at it has become this huge monster, despite the fact that critics say that doing games and slot machines and golf courses is not credible. Critics still live in their mother's basement. We own the world." - Gene Simmons
HarryHenderson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2010, 10:07 PM   #713
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 15,675
I can't wait until sweaty gets to those of us who never thought BH was Patty...
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2010, 11:16 PM   #714
Blackdog
Critical Thinker
 
Blackdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 470
I can't wait until people quit addressing Sweaty's posts.
Blackdog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2010, 06:23 PM   #715
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 15,675
Address them? I have him on ignore and I'm going mostly by the quotes and context.
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2010, 07:58 PM   #716
SweatyYeti
Illuminator
 
SweatyYeti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
Drewbot wrote:
Quote:
You don't know where the Ballet, or Patty's elbow is.

Your measurements are refuted.
Oh yes, we Do....Drew.

This animated-gif shows that Patty was, in fact, swinging her arm outwards, laterally...(directly towards the camera)....as she was swinging her arm forward.....since there is clearly some significant foreshortening of her upper arm, in the image on the left...





So, due to the fact that Patty's arm was swung out laterally, to the side...the measurement of Patty's elbow-reach, laterally, should indeed have a high degree of accuracy to it.

Even though there probably is some degree-of-error, due to the arm swinging forward...it's probably not enough to account for the large difference between Patty's and Bob's measured elbow-reaches.


I'll be using a physical model to determine what the degree of that potential error is....sometime in the near future.


__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."

Last edited by SweatyYeti; 28th March 2010 at 08:05 PM.
SweatyYeti is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2010, 11:30 PM   #717
AtomicMysteryMonster
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,169
wolf,

I have some Godzilla suit goodies for you! I tried a new Google Books search and found the following:

Eiji Tsuburaya: master of monsters by August Ragone has a bunch of great pictures relating to the making of and wearing of Godzilla costumes. Page 36 offers a shot of a man working on an ultimately rejected suit, while page 37 offers a little something about the making of the final suit. Page 42 offers both some details on what it was like in the suit and shows just how big the costume's head is and page 43 shows Nakajima emerging from a Godzilla suit in a long-sleeved shirt. It's not the picture I remembered, but I think you'll still find it interesting.

Page 16 of Robert Greenberger's Meet Godzilla reveals that the crew once checked the suit's temperature and found it reached 60 degrees C/140 degrees F! That page, along with page 17 also offer more details about the suit and its mechanical effects.

Cheap tricks and class acts by John Johnson offers an interesting discussion of how Mr. Nakajima practiced the necessary gait and aspects of the costume's design effecting the walk on page 216.

Oh, and this should lead to a limited preview of Anatomy of a Beast: Obsession and Myth on the Trail of Bigfoot by Michael McLeod. Scrolling through it should yield some very interesting notes about Ivan Sanderson and the PGF.
__________________
Open your mind and let the sun shine in. Let a wild hairy ape in there too, would you please? - William Parcher

You can fool too many of the people too much of the time. - James Thurber
AtomicMysteryMonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th March 2010, 02:42 AM   #718
RayG
Master Poster
 
RayG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,605
Originally Posted by AtomicMysteryMonster View Post
Oh, and this should lead to a limited preview of Anatomy of a Beast: Obsession and Myth on the Trail of Bigfoot by Michael McLeod. Scrolling through it should yield some very interesting notes about Ivan Sanderson and the PGF.
Thanks AMM, I wasn't aware this one was out there.

RayG
__________________
Tell ya what. I'll hold my tongue as long as you stick to facts.
--------------------
Scrutatio Et Quaestio
RayG is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th March 2010, 07:48 PM   #719
wolftrax
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 216
Originally Posted by AtomicMysteryMonster View Post
wolf,

I have some Godzilla suit goodies for you! I tried a new Google Books search and found the following:

Eiji Tsuburaya: master of monsters by August Ragone has a bunch of great pictures relating to the making of and wearing of Godzilla costumes. Page 36 offers a shot of a man working on an ultimately rejected suit, while page 37 offers a little something about the making of the final suit. Page 42 offers both some details on what it was like in the suit and shows just how big the costume's head is and page 43 shows Nakajima emerging from a Godzilla suit in a long-sleeved shirt. It's not the picture I remembered, but I think you'll still find it interesting.

Page 16 of Robert Greenberger's Meet Godzilla reveals that the crew once checked the suit's temperature and found it reached 60 degrees C/140 degrees F! That page, along with page 17 also offer more details about the suit and its mechanical effects.

Cheap tricks and class acts by John Johnson offers an interesting discussion of how Mr. Nakajima practiced the necessary gait and aspects of the costume's design effecting the walk on page 216.

Oh, and this should lead to a limited preview of Anatomy of a Beast: Obsession and Myth on the Trail of Bigfoot by Michael McLeod. Scrolling through it should yield some very interesting notes about Ivan Sanderson and the PGF.
Dude, you rock! Thank you very much! I will have to check all of this stuff out, I just looked at the image of the man emerging from the suit with the long sleeve shirt on. This isn't spandex, looks like a cotton T-shirt, but I am thinking he wore it to absorb the sweat.
wolftrax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd April 2010, 11:22 PM   #720
SweatyYeti
Illuminator
 
SweatyYeti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,027
Here is an improved measurement of Patty's 'elbow-reach'.

In this graphic, instead of stretching her entire width...(as I did in post #711)...I've only stretched her upper-torso width, leaving the length from 'her side-to-her elbow' the same...with it's foreshortened length...







In effect...the measurement of 25" is the result of a measurement across the back, as seen from 'directly behind'....and a measurement of the rest of the distance to the elbow, as seen from a 40-degree angle...







If there is any error in the measurement due to Patty's arm being swung in the forward direction...(making the 'elbow-reach' appear longer than it actually is).....it's compensated for...in large part, or completely....by the fact that the lateral length from 'her side to her elbow' is being measured in it's fore-shortened view...(making the 'elbow-reach' appear shorter than it actually is.)

Those 2 errors cancel each other out, at least to a large degree.....leaving an 'elbow-reach' measurement for Patty which has a high degree of accuracy....and is still several inches longer than Bob's elbow can reach, for that given arm-angle.

Bob's is approx. 17-18"....while Patty's measures about 25"...
__________________
The wisdom of Diogenes....
"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

tyr13: "There is no proof of bigfoot so there is no proof that bigfoot isn't a bear."

Last edited by SweatyYeti; 3rd April 2010 at 11:30 PM.
SweatyYeti is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:17 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.