Racial quotas for the FDNY

Thunder

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http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20409455&BRD=2731&PAG=461&dept_id=574905&rfi=6/%27%27

I think this is dangerous, immoral, unAmerican, and frankly...disgusting.

If there is ONE job in the world, that should not have a racial quota system, it is firefighter. They should be hired based on skill and skill....ALONE.

If black and Hispanics in NYC have poorer reading skills, let the City pay for tutors, reading classes, etc etc.

But do NOT just give them a free-pass to become a firefighter. Do NOT give them retro-active seniority.

Not only will this endanger the lives of millions of New Yorkers, but it will endanger the lives of fellow firefighters.

And even if not that, can you imagine what the dynamic would be like in a firehouse, where the white firemen know that the one or two blacks or Hispanics got there not because they passed the test, but because they got a court-ordered quota position??? Can you imagine the distrust, resentment, and animosity?

This is a bad idea. Very bad. I pray NYC appeals this immediately, all the way to the Supreme Court.

People may die from this decision.

p.s....I am a liberal Democrat..and I support limited affirmative action to address long-term and systemic discrimination. Even quotas in very extreme and isolated circumstances. But NOT in areas of first responders and safety officers.
 
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Ugh, don't even get me started on the Vulcan's.

This is getting out of hand, they want ever 6 out of 10 new hires be a minority. They want an easier test, more points, and all this other crap. I took the "new" test in '07 with all of those opinionated questions on it, what [rule 10].

The truth is, the minorities don't want the job, they aren't being turned away, they JUST AREN'T APPLYING. If they can't get in the high percentile which is scoring higher than a 90 to 95 at least to even be considered, that is not racism, it is a lack of comprehension and test taking skills.
 
um....there are also no blacks or Hispanics playing for the NY Rangers or the Islanders. Nor the NJ Devils. Must be due to discrimination.

look, if reading comprehension is an issue, then the judge should order NYC to pay for free reading lessons for minority candidates who need help. I got no major problem with that.

but quotas? for firemen? very very risky decision. for soooo many reasons.

I will feel less safe in NYC if the FDNY implements racial quotas.

my dad was a NYC Civil Servant, just like myself. He did damn well on his promotional exam, but D. Dinkins and one of his Commissioners thought the high scorers were "too white and too Jewish". My dad and others had to sue to get the promotions they deserved, based on their merits and skill.

....oh, and btw, Jews make up 20% of NYC. But you don't see us demanding 20% of each yearly FDNY class be Jewish.
 
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parky76 said:
um....there are also no blacks or Hispanics playing for the NY Rangers or the Islanders. Nor the NJ Devils. Must be due to discrimination.

look, if reading comprehension is an issue, then the judge should order NYC to pay for free reading lessons for minority candidates who need help. I got no major problem with that.

but quotas? for firemen? very very risky decision. for soooo many reasons.

I will feel less safe in NYC if the FDNY implements racial quotas.

my dad was a NYC Civil Servant, just like myself. He did damn well on his promotional exam, but D. Dinkins and one of his Commissioners thought the high scorers were "too white and too Jewish". My dad and others had to sue to get the promotions they deserved, based on their merits and skill.

....oh, and btw, Jews make up 20% of NYC. But you don't see us demanding 20% of each yearly FDNY class be Jewish.
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I agree,

We saw this happen with the NYPD when they lowered standards. How many gang bangers and criminals that shouldn't be on the job are now hired?

If they want quotas then maybe the Emerald society, Ner Tamid, Columbia society, FLAG, and every other society should sue for quota's as well.


ETA: The FDNY offered free study programs across the city for anybody taking the Jan. 07 test, it was worth it. I attended all the classes and they went over everything in the exam (except for the stupid opinionated questions section that were announced right before we took the exam).
 
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I would have thought Ricci v. DiStefano would have foreclosed this kind of stupidity.

Also, I fail to see why the people of New York City should pony up to pay for tutors just so the FDNY can look more like a Benetton advert.
 
parky76 said:
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20409455&BRD=2731&PAG=461&dept_id=574905&rfi=6/%27%27

I think this is dangerous, immoral, unAmerican, and frankly...disgusting.

If there is ONE job in the world, that should not have a racial quota system, it is firefighter. They should be hired based on skill and skill....ALONE.

If black and Hispanics in NYC have poorer reading skills, let the City pay for tutors, reading classes, etc etc.

But do NOT just give them a free-pass to become a firefighter. Do NOT give them retro-active seniority.

Not only will this endanger the lives of millions of New Yorkers, but it will endanger the lives of fellow firefighters.

And even if not that, can you imagine what the dynamic would be like in a firehouse, where the white firemen know that the one or two blacks or Hispanics got there not because they passed the test, but because they got a court-ordered quota position??? Can you imagine the distrust, resentment, and animosity?

This is a bad idea. Very bad. I pray NYC appeals this immediately, all the way to the Supreme Court.

People may die from this decision.

p.s....I am a liberal Democrat..and I support limited affirmative action to address long-term and systemic discrimination. Even quotas in very extreme and isolated circumstances. But NOT in areas of first responders and safety officers.
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I'm for affirmative action and suspect the blacks who were retained were qualified enough to be firefighters.

Here's the problem:

" Last month, U.S. District Court Judge Nicholas Garaufis ruled that written exams administered to FDNY applicants in 1999 and 2002 were invalid because they only tested cognitive skills — reading and written comprehension, while oral comprehension and oral expression were largely ignored. The result was a large disparity between white and minority applicants’ successes."

Race differences on IQ tests.

The judge is wrong to think that oral comprehension will not show adverse impact (it will as a g-loaded task), unless it's allowed to be scored subjectively (a standard trick to get around race differences on IQ tests) which then means it will lose all validity (it's g-ness) predicting success as a firefighter.

It's the usual, blame the schools; blame that this cognitive test was used but not that test, but the differences won't go away til science is allowed to study what's causing them.

So, til then, I think AA is a moral temporary solution.
 
"has re-introduced legislation that would give any firefighter candidate who has a diploma or GED from a city high school or testing center an additional eight-point credit on the exam."

I bet this is illegal (race norming) under the 1991 amendment to the civil rights act. Any lawyers here-- seems like it would be an adverse impact like example of disparate treatment (using something that co-varies with race to award points to minorities which would then harm whites).
 
How can it be racist to give preferential treatment to a group of individuals that never shows up? I mean, can you really discriminate against someone who really doesn't care enough to apply for the job? What difference does an anti-discrimination law make when the people that it's intended to protect never take advantage of it?

Just asking.
 
"Charney says that since the questionable exams did not accurately test the skills necessary to be a firefighter it is unfair to assume that the unchosen applicants are unqualified, though he acknowledges that the judge’s ruling may cause resentment."

Human research management scholars have known for about 20-30 years that there are no specific "mental skills" one must measure to predict success in this that or any job. It's not true / patently false that fire fighters require different types of mental skills than say, cops, or CPAs.
 
Fnord said:
How can it be racist to give preferential treatment to a group of individuals that never shows up? I mean, can you really discriminate against someone who really doesn't care enough to apply for the job? What difference does an anti-discrimination law make when the people that it's intended to protect never take advantage of it?

Just asking.
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You need to define the relevant labor market. From what I read, the info wasn't provided. But, if it is the city of new york, then clearly, black firefighters are under-represented relative to their numbers as residents of the city. I'd bet many applied but didn't score well enough on the exam to get in, or the next exam to get the promotion.
 
Really don't see anything to be outraged about here, even after reading the biased article. Bias in tests has long been a recognized problem and, if the judge ruled the test was inappropriate, he probably had good reason.

If you disagree with the ruling, post the transcript, not a biased newspaper article. Then point out the errors at law that the judge made. Othewise, you're attacking a second-hand represntation of a court case.
 
Slimething said:
Really don't see anything to be outraged about here, even after reading the biased article. Bias in tests has long been a recognized problem and, if the judge ruled the test was inappropriate, he probably had good reason.

If you disagree with the ruling, post the transcript, not a biased newspaper article. Then point out the errors at law that the judge made. Othewise, you're attacking a second-hand represntation of a court case.
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There's two types of bias:

1. minorities score lower than non-minorities. This is indeed present here.
2. the test is unfair to minorities (shows differential prediction or slope and/or intercept bias). No modern cognitive, g-loaded test does this.

Oral expression will be biased, but against non-minorities (a prediction...)
 
parky76 said:
um....there are also no blacks or Hispanics playing for the NY Rangers or the Islanders. Nor the NJ Devils. Must be due to discrimination.
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Yeah, because ice time at a rink is free, and they hand out equipment on street corners, and getting to practice is a breeze, and all the other kids in the projects play ice hockey, so what's the problem?

I'm just saying there might be factors people don't think about.

Now tell me I'm wrong so I can go cry and never come back to this thread with you big meanines. And stuff. :p
 
Neally said:
Why?
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Because I think the differences are "real" meaning not due to the obvious dismissal / "factor x" explanations (SES, education, motivation, etc).

And, I think we have a century of good-science data piled high showing this.

But, unlike any other area (perhaps global warming is close, but not this bad) peer reviewed science here is not so much ignored as it is attacked / demeaned / and associated with hitler (or pick a mean racist).

I think it's immoral that we won't use science to figure this out.

Temporary AA (til science solves the problem) is therefore justified to counteract the immorality created by sticking heads in sand.

Solving this problem would do more for humanity's well-being than any other single problem we could solve.
 
Steel workers v. Weber.

AA plans are legal iff:

Remedial (a racial imbalance exists now)
Temporary (preference ends when the imbalance is corrected)
They do not "trammel" the interests of whites (in the OP, 2 of every 5 positions could be filled by whites, which imo meets this standard).
 
You know, someone should just explain to the fires and collapsing buildings that everyone on the FDNY may not be qualified, so it can't burn as hot/ collapse as quickly.

I still don't understand how reading comprehension and reasoning tests are racially biased. If it is because the school system is failing, how exactly is giving someone a job they aren't qualified for going to fix that?

I really don't think my sister-in-law is going to feel better at my brother's funeral if she is told that the guy that was supposed to be backing him up wasn't qualified, but at least the FDNY is more diverse. I know I won't.

The fact is minorities simply aren't seeking the job. It has nothing to do with the test. I've taken that and several civil service tests and they are all the same.

The NYPD has higher requirements for education but still gets more minority applicants. I took the NYS court officer exam in the fall and the line went around the block with people of all races.
 
Donal said:
You know, someone should just explain to the fires and collapsing buildings that everyone on the FDNY may not be qualified, so it can't burn as hot/ collapse as quickly.

I still don't understand how reading comprehension and reasoning tests are racially biased. If it is because the school system is failing, how exactly is giving someone a job they aren't qualified for going to fix that?

I really don't think my sister-in-law is going to feel better at my brother's funeral if she is told that the guy that was supposed to be backing him up wasn't qualified, but at least the FDNY is more diverse. I know I won't.

The fact is minorities simply aren't seeking the job. It has nothing to do with the test. I've taken that and several civil service tests and they are all the same.

The NYPD has higher requirements for education but still gets more minority applicants. I took the NYS court officer exam in the fall and the line went around the block with people of all races.
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There's a 1 standard deviation effect size difference for black / white IQ scores (the effect varies with how strongly the cognitive test measures g).

The under-representation at various cutoff scores (to get hired for this or that job) will be massive, and is massive.

That's the problem.
 
parky76 said:
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20409455&BRD=2731&PAG=461&dept_id=574905&rfi=6/%27%27

I think this is dangerous, immoral, unAmerican, and frankly...disgusting.

If there is ONE job in the world, that should not have a racial quota system, it is firefighter. They should be hired based on skill and skill....ALONE.

If black and Hispanics in NYC have poorer reading skills, let the City pay for tutors, reading classes, etc etc.

But do NOT just give them a free-pass to become a firefighter. Do NOT give them retro-active seniority.

Not only will this endanger the lives of millions of New Yorkers, but it will endanger the lives of fellow firefighters.

And even if not that, can you imagine what the dynamic would be like in a firehouse, where the white firemen know that the one or two blacks or Hispanics got there not because they passed the test, but because they got a court-ordered quota position??? Can you imagine the distrust, resentment, and animosity?

This is a bad idea. Very bad. I pray NYC appeals this immediately, all the way to the Supreme Court.

People may die from this decision.

p.s....I am a liberal Democrat..and I support limited affirmative action to address long-term and systemic discrimination. Even quotas in very extreme and isolated circumstances. But NOT in areas of first responders and safety officers.
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I don't understand the idea of racial quotas or anything like that.

In Canada, government jobs are often granted to women and minorities over "white males" because of such a philosophy. I understand that, theoretically, they will pick people with equal competence, but it's discrimination, plain and simple. You applied first and fit the bill, so why would they skip you and pick another person ?

This invites people to pick the prettier lady, covering it up as meeting their quotas, or picking their friends who happen to be black, for instance, for the same "reason". I understand that they want to correct past injustice, but you can't amend for a wrong by another wrong.
 
bpesta22 said:
There's a 1 standard deviation effect size difference for black / white IQ scores (the effect varies with how strongly the cognitive test measures g).

The under-representation at various cutoff scores (to get hired for this or that job) will be massive, and is massive.

That's the problem.
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That does not explain why minorities do not apply.

And it also doesn't explain how that makes fires burn cooler. Maybe the 4 alarm infernos are racist too.
 
Donal said:
That does not explain why minorities do not apply.

And it also doesn't explain how that makes fires burn cooler. Maybe the 4 alarm infernos are racist too.
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I missed the info in the article that shows lack of minority applicants....do you have that?

Or, maybe you are basing the claim on your experience?
 
A total of 29,638 candidates applied for this year’s firefighter exam – surpassing the totals for each of the exams in 2002 (23,976) and 1999 (22,529) – and more than 40% of the applicants were minorities (11,918).
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Source



ETA
 
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NYCEMT86 said:
Source
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That says who PASSED the exam-- I would bet a disproportionate number of minorities did not pass. I will peruse the link.

Note too the 2:1 preference for blacks and hispanics over whites when the group mean IQ's are 100 white; 85 black and halfway in between-- 92-- for hispanics. The under-representation is correlated perfectly with mean iqs.
 
btw, if you're in new york and work in the safety forces, I am available as an expert witness (I'll give your lawyers a discount; 200$ per hour!). Seriously, I could help and have done this before.
 
bpesta22 said:
That says who PASSED the exam-- I would bet a disproportionate number of minorities did not pass. I will peruse the link.

Note too the 2:1 preference for blacks and hispanics over whites when the group mean IQ's are 100 white; 85 black and halfway in between-- 92-- for hispanics. The under-representation is correlated perfectly with mean iqs.
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Corrected
 
I am all for a diverse work force, but when it comes down to it, who ever is better qualified should get the job no matter what race they are. Firefighting relies heavily on cognitive skills and that should be tested for.

bpesta22 said:
btw, if you're in new york and work in the safety forces, I am available as an expert witness (I'll give your lawyers a discount; 200$ per hour!). Seriously, I could help and have done this before.
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Expert witness for what? I am just curious.
 
I've done it for test validation; test bias; adverse impact; and disparate treatment claims.

Ironically my first case was against the city of cleveland and for their firefighters. The case was the aftermath to the famous "Headon" consent decree (AA for minority fire fighters) that went all the way to scotus.

My client appealed to scotus-- I like to imagine that at least one justice has read the writ with my name and conclusions in the argument! Cert denied.

Really, though, I am quite good at employment law and stats needed to defend or attack an exam's job relatedness.
 
bpesta22 said:
Because I think the differences are "real" meaning not due to the obvious dismissal / "factor x" explanations (SES, education, motivation, etc).
Temporary AA (til science solves the problem) is therefore justified to counteract the immorality created by sticking heads in sand.
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By what methods of implementing AA do you favor--different/reduced qualifications, quotas, etc.?
 
The supporters of affirmative action are smart: 'I am against discrimination, and thus in the struggle against discrimination we must discriminate against whites!'.
188094b75f85d8a1d1.gif
 
Let me get this straight... the tests *may* be unfair to certain groups minorities, so the solution is to create a racial quota, thereby discriminating against someone else?

...

That just doesn't make sense to me. I don't believe the test is fair to disabled applicators either, maybe we should make a quota for them as well.
 
I think you guys are getting ahead of yourselves. The article stated that the judge had ruled the testing biased. The court has not yet decided on a remedy, which is what you guys are discussing before it even happens. Moreover, as the lot of you don't have the filings in front of you, you don't know what the plaintiff has requested as a remedy. It's a little early, yes?

So, the test used was unfair, unless you can point out an error in the judge's opinion. Now, that's the only unfair thing reported in the article. Everything else there is supposition. So, you guys are arguing about a hypothetical. Good luck with that.
 
Arcade22 said:
The supporters of affirmative action are smart: 'I am against discrimination, and thus in the struggle against discrimination we must discriminate against whites!'.
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well, if each FDNY class has 100 slots, and because of AA, several whites are bumped out of their slots, then yes....white people will suffer unfair discrimination.
 
Normal Dude said:
Let me get this straight... the tests *may* be unfair to certain groups minorities, so the solution is to create a racial quota, thereby discriminating against someone else? That just doesn't make sense to me. I don't believe the test is fair to disabled applicators either, maybe we should make a quota for them as well.
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.
Sure it does! Just like when you want to make a blanket longer, you cut off a strip from one end and sew it onto the other. See? All better!
 
parky76 said:
well, if each FDNY class has 100 slots, and because of AA, several whites are bumped out of their slots, then yes....white people will suffer unfair discrimination.
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Well isn't that really the point from the beginning? Affirmative action - Whites out, swarthy minorities in?
 
Or we could, you know, read the judge's actual ruling, in which he quite specifically points out that he is NOT imposing quotas on the FDNY. You might begin by searching for this sentence:
In reaching these conclusions, the court declines at this time to impose interim hiring quotas on the City as part of its remedy.
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What the ruling says is that the FDNY has to find the people who were refused jobs as firefighters because they scored too low on a test that the court has previously ruled to be IRRELEVANT to their qualifications as potential firefighters. It has to then offer 293 of those 7000+ minority candidates the opportunity to reapply for positions. But they DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY RECEIVE JOBS:
293 victims of discrimination – the shortfall of minority hires resulting from the
City’s use of Written Examinations 7029 and 2043 – will be eligible for priority hiring relief, provided that they meet the current requirements for appointment as an entry-level firefighter;
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So, in other words, this is largely a non-story being spun in the usual alarmist ways by the media because they know that playing it as a story about "racial quotas" will grab more eyeballs.
 
Yoink said:
Or we could, you know, read the judge's actual ruling, in which he quite specifically points out that he is NOT imposing quotas on the FDNY. You might begin by searching for this sentence:

What the ruling says is that the FDNY has to find the people who were refused jobs as firefighters because they scored too low on a test that the court has previously ruled to be IRRELEVANT to their qualifications as potential firefighters. It has to then offer 293 of those 7000+ minority candidates the opportunity to reapply for positions. But they DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY RECEIVE JOBS:

So, in other words, this is largely a non-story being spun in the usual alarmist ways by the media because they know that playing it as a story about "racial quotas" will grab more eyeballs.
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But the test would not be irrelevant to job success unless the judge is willing to throw out 1000s of articles in peer-reviewed science.

Quotas are illegal; so don't use the word quota. But, it still really is a quota system (just don't use that word or the plan will be struck down).
 
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