NYT Article: Are Tea Party members conspiracy theorists, or patriots?

Sabrina

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Sabrina
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Apologies if this has been posted before, but I didn't see it; just spotted this via MSNBC's website, an article from the New York Times regarding the hundreds of Tea Parties that have sprung up nationwide, and how they are apparently beginning to embrace conspiracy rhetoric as truth.

Linky

I have to wonder how many of these people, after listening to Glenn Beck and reading Infowars and Prison Planet and having them "resonate" with their own experiences have even bothered to look at the other side of things; you know, the side with actual EVIDENCE to support the theories, versus wild speculation and incendiary commentary. I don't advocate labeling them, necessarily, but I have to admit that, should even a fraction of what I read about them believing is true, I am concerned for the future state of this country. They may not have truth on their side, but they've got zazzy sound bites and the promise of "fighting the man" that appeals to many people who are frustrated with the current state of affairs. I just don't understand how educated people can even begin to believe the majority of what these people spew though; they don't even bother to look at the other side of the coin! They claim to not be sheeple, but they're even worse than the ones they claim are in that they blindly and without fact-checking believe people who have the cunning and capability to vomit up exactly the food these people are seeking. They're like little baby birds who wait with open mouths for whatever Mama Beck and Papa Jones will regurgitate up for them. It's truly sad. I wonder if anyone has ever approached them and pointed out that they rarely, if ever, bother to look at the other side of things, and that if they really want a balanced view of the world, they ought to realize that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, not leaning far right as most of these people tend to do.
 
In all honesty, I'm not sure how much of this demographic is aware of Alex Jones. Granted, since the man reinvents himself each time a new administration comes to power, it's possible that whatever elements of the Tea Party that have been turned onto him don't know much about his Republican-bashing during the Bush days.
Still, Alex Jones' recent 2nd Amendment hijinks aren't going to win him any fans with this crowd.
 
One of the people mentioned in the article was invited to be on Alex Jones' show though. So at least some of them are aware of his rhetoric.
 
I was going to post this article!

Oh well. Interesting to see how mainstream some of this is now.
 
I'm certain Alex is gunning for this demographic in a big way. He rotated promos for 'The Obama Deception' on Mark Levin and Michael Savage's shows. Not sure about Rush, though.

Personally, I think this party is going to fall apart before the table even gets set.

It's really easy to find a group of people that agree on something they don't like. Harder to keep a group united around a common idea of what should be done.

I hate to see Alex Jones get any more followers than he has, but if this 'poisons the well' and cripples this movement's mainstream credibility (the kind that wins elections) then by all means buy into his crap.

Then again, I could be wrong. I hope I'm not.

Here's why.

As it stands, this 'movement' is made up almost exclusively of angry white people who are reacting to the economic conditions in the country. Well, that and the Libertarians who are too crazy for the Republican party. They're good for spoiling a get-together.

At any rate, their political socialization is suspect, their knowledge of government is next to nothing, and to cap it all off, there is serious pressure being put in this movement and directed towards Sarah Palin running for POTUS.

From what I've seen amongst my own family here in the Midwest, the Tea Party is as much about Sarah Palin as it is about any kind of laissez-faire philosophy of government. They can't start a sentence about how great the Tea Party movement is without invoking her name.

It's even more bizarre and unwarranted than the 'messianic' treatment President Obama received during the campaign. They actually think of her as the best person to lead the most powerful nation on the face of the earth.

You take a group of people who are already upset about poor economic conditions and tell them what they want to hear, and best of all - give them a bogeyman for all their problems - it doesn't take much to work them into an unthinking maelstrom of heavily-armed Creationist Southern Baptists who won't stop until there's a giant Ten Commandments statue (with Lee Marvin as Moses) in front of every courthouse in the land.

Combine this kind of unbridled fanaticism with Alex Jones' paranoid and dangerous ramblings, and you have a recipe for disaster.

Mark my words, folks - if Alex Jones succeeds in gaining traction with this group, there will be another Ruby Ridge, if not something worse due to his influence.
 
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I wonder if anyone has ever approached them and pointed out that they rarely, if ever, bother to look at the other side of things, and that if they really want a balanced view of the world, they ought to realize that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, not leaning far right as most of these people tend to do.
Click to expand...

The Tea Partiers are not the type to indulge in self-enlightenment. They jumped on this bandwagon because it echoes what they already believe. These are not folks searching for anwers - just power, influence and attention. They want reinforcement for their bias not revelation.

I just hope they stick around long enough for the elections so they can mess with the GOP.
 
I could be wrong here, but I think third party meddlers have historically swayed votes away from the Democratic party.

Could be a GOP schism though -

The knowledgeable but self-centered and corrupt older businessmen and lawyers pining for the days of Reagan

VS

The impressionable and ignorant rubes, worked into a frothing volcano of stupidity, and pining for the days of Reagan.
 
I have thought it interesting that the tyranny and the mechanisms of tyranny that these folk fear in their cartoon Obama -- i.e. practically un-checked presidential power -- was pioneered under Bush Cheney...whatever they fear Obama might do to them and their "liberty", Dick Cheney showed them how...
 
headscratcher4 said:
I have thought it interesting that the tyranny and the mechanisms of tyranny that these folk fear in their cartoon Obama -- i.e. practically un-checked presidential power -- was pioneered under Bush Cheney...whatever they fear Obama might do to them and their "liberty", Dick Cheney showed them how...
Click to expand...

Irony, thy name is Dick. ;)
 
JoeyDonuts said:
if Alex Jones succeeds in gaining traction with this group, there will be another Ruby Ridge, if not something worse due to his influence.
Click to expand...

Insane statement, Ruby Ridge was a case of government massacring its citizens and coming in guns blazing for the crime of selling some shotguns that were a bit too short.

Unless you are saying that Alex Jones makes the police act violently, I don't understand your point.

"if Alex Jones succeeds in gaining traction with this group, there will be another Lexington and Concord"

As for the topic question, they are both theorists and patriots, they are not mutually exclusive.
 
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Given the subject matter, I would have to disagree with you; there is almost no evidence that any of the things they are afraid will happen are actually going to happen. If there's no tyranny to free yourself from, how then can you be defined as a patriot, pray tell?
 
As a political science geek I have been fascinated with the Tea Party. It isn't every day in the American political system that a "third party" (and I use the term loosely) manages to maintain national media attention. I've been trying to listen to the far right/far left sources (I was listening to Air America, but they went off the air!) to try to see how each frames the Tea Party people.

There doesn't seem to be an "average" Tea Party person yet. The type of self-professed Tea Party goers that call into say, Rush Limbaugh's show are entirely different from the ones that show up to Glen Beck's rallies. And those are often different from how far-left progressive talk portrays them. The only general pattern I've noticed thus far is you have more "traditional" conservatives (low taxes, less government) who seem to like Limbaugh, and the more wacky ones showing up on the Glen Beck TV/radio show (these ones think Obama is a communist and the government will round us up into CT camps).

There seems to be three types of Tea Party members:
(1) The Hysterical Populist: These are your garden variety "get the pitch forks and storm the castle" types who are raging against anyone they perceive to be more wealthy or affluent than they are. The "bank bailouts" ignited their rage against the affluent class that they had always been angry with for being richer than them to begin with. They direct populist hysteria towards intellectuals, banks, government, etc. This is the least covered aspect of the Tea Party movement IMO.
(2) The Classical Liberal: This one seems almost libertarian to me, and focuses completely on the smaller government part of the movement and doesn't get into the social issues.
(3) The Conspiracy Theorist: This is the conspiracy type wingnut that Alex Jones would be proud of. This is the part of the movement that the left wing party hacks tend to hyper focus on.

The problem for the Tea Party movement is each of these types of people are all aiming at radically different goals. Which is probably exactly why the Tea Part won't last, because with three different factions like that you will run into trouble. Not a scientific analysis by any means, just what I've noticed listening to the fringe on both sides.
 
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Infoexcavator said:
Insane statement, Ruby Ridge was a case of government massacring its citizens and coming in guns blazing for the crime of selling some shotguns that were a bit too short.

Unless you are saying that Alex Jones makes the police act violently, I don't understand your point.

"if Alex Jones succeeds in gaining traction with this group, there will be another Lexington and Concord"

As for the topic question, they are both theorists and patriots, they are not mutually exclusive.
Click to expand...
No Ruby Ridge was a case of a man breaking federal law through the illegal modification of a shotgun for profit. He could have manned up and actually surrendered when the cops came arrest him, but he decided to sacrifice his family on the mantle of insane militia movement believes.
 
I have been reading the first book of Bruce Catton's Civil War history, "The Coming Fury" and I am fascinated by the similarities between groups like the know-nothings and the southern democrats of 1860 and the tea partiers of today.

While I doubt that the 2012 elections will play out like the 1860 election, I have no doubt that there will be some who will push the similarities.
 
LightinDarkness said:
The problem for the Tea Party movement is each of these types of people are all aiming at radically different goals. Which is probably exactly why the Tea Part won't last, because with three different factions like that you will run into trouble. Not a scientific analysis by any means, just what I've noticed listening to the fringe on both sides.
Click to expand...

The problem as I see it, is that your first group could easily be led into the third group, or vice versa, by the manipulations and pandering of someone like Alex Jones.

If a large segment of this population believes that the government wants to infringe on their rights, inject them with mind control agents, declare martial law, and round them up into death camps - and the whole thing is controlled by the 'shadowy global elite,' they might start to think THEY are the only true patriots, the guardians of the legacy of the Founding Fathers.

They'll make statements about the 'tree of liberty needing to be refreshed.'

They'll keep The Turner Diaries in their bedside tables alongside the KJV.

Long-term? I think groups like the Freemen and Elohim City will see a spike in membership. This movement is ultimately self-defeating, but it only takes one guy with a stockpile of assault weaponry that he believes he has a God-given and Constitutionally granted right to own, and he'll be damned if they're gonna try him in some illegitimate admiralty court.

Yeah, maybe I'm being hyperbolic. But I see the influence of Alex Jones, who's inspired distrust and violent actions against law enforcement, mixed with an empty-headed emotional fringe movement like this being a very pungent and irritating recipe.

Sooner or later someone's going to get diarrhea.

Um, I probably could have finished that better.
 
fullflavormenthol said:
No Ruby Ridge was a case of a man breaking federal law through the illegal modification of a shotgun for profit. He could have manned up and actually surrendered when the cops came arrest him, but he decided to sacrifice his family on the mantle of insane militia movement believes.
Click to expand...

EDIT: Ignore my post. I'm too disgusted and angry to discuss this rationally.
 
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Ruby Ridge was a ****-up on the part of the HRT's rules of engagement and how they were implemented, nobody's questioning that. Denver FBI SWAT thought the ROE was 'insane.'

Still, the situation was dynamic. There's some kind of common narrative out there that Lon Horiuchi lined up Vicki Weaver in the scope, knew exactly who and what he was targeting, and fired anyway. That's not quite how it happened, but a moot question anyway since the actions of the HRT and Marshals almost ensured a violent confrontation from the outset.

I'm simply putting it out there that should Alex Jones' wackitude seep into the brains of those who are already angry and pissed off at the goverment, you're probably going to see many more families like the Weavers.
 
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I have to echo the concern that Joey's expressed about these folks potentially becoming violent.

Understand, I do not by any stretch of the imagination think such a thing is CERTAIN to happen; but the potential is there, however remote. And given the rhetoric spewed by the likes of Glenn Beck and Alex Jones, the possibility grows with each new fruitcake idea espoused by either one of these knuckleheads. I do not advocate a repeal of the Second Amendment, nor do I think these individuals should be treated like potential terrorists. I do think that we, or at the very least people more versed in the particular subjects than the "armchair quarterbacks" such as Beck and Jones, should make a concerted effort to educate them on the folly of their positions. The only thing that can defuse these people, in my opinion, is knowledge, because like I said earlier, they don't seek it. They're the little baby birds opening their beaks and swallowing whole whatever Beck and Jones and the like regurgitate. It won't reach all of them, but I have to believe that enough of them would understand the remote likelihood of ANY of the things they fear coming to pass that they would realize just how silly they appear and would cease acting like idiots.

Perhaps a futile hope, perhaps not; but so long as no one makes an effort to educate these people, the lunacy will only grow. I'd do it myself, but I'm only an "armchair quarterback" at best; I don't have the expertise in the subject matter that would be needed to counteract the lunacy.
 
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it, especially if it doesn't taste just the way he'd like it to.

If they are really going down the rabbit hole, you can throw hard facts at them all day and nothing will stick. Rational discourse is viewed as an attack.

I mean, we see this all the time with the 9/11 CT crowd, don't we? If evidence doesn't fit or support their conspiratorial worldview, it's dismissed out of hand.

I've seen this with my family that went down the Birther hole. (I hear you laughing in the back, UC. Pay attention.) They still say 'he's never produced his birth certificate!' I'd tell them, the Governor of Hawaii and a number of other agencies have vouched for it. They'd counter "I haven't seen it! It must be fake! The government ALWAYS fakes things like that!"

It's really frightening to hear the same kind of twisted logic and thinking the 9/11 Truth Movement uses, but coming from your own family.

They still don't know I'm an atheist. This probably isn't the time.
 
Myron Proudfoot said:
One interesting thing is how often I've seen Clinton blamed for Ruby Ridge despite the fact that it happened in 1992.
Click to expand...
.
It won't be long before Obama and the Obama media coverup gets the blame, and gets jumped on for the Gadsden Purchase, and Seward's Folly.
The Tea Baggers have no sense of time or history, or even why the first Tea Party occurred!
 
headscratcher4 said:
I have thought it interesting that the tyranny and the mechanisms of tyranny that these folk fear in their cartoon Obama -- i.e. practically un-checked presidential power -- was pioneered under Bush Cheney...whatever they fear Obama might do to them and their "liberty", Dick Cheney showed them how...
Click to expand...

To be fair, a lot of them say that it's not a left/right thing for them; that they saw this all coming a long time ago and are only now getting riled up enough to try to organize and do something. It's just too coincidental for me that it's all happening immediately after we elected a predominantly black and allegedly "Muslim" president.
 
JoeyDonuts said:
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it, especially if it doesn't taste just the way he'd like it to.

If they are really going down the rabbit hole, you can throw hard facts at them all day and nothing will stick. Rational discourse is viewed as an attack.

I mean, we see this all the time with the 9/11 CT crowd, don't we? If evidence doesn't fit or support their conspiratorial worldview, it's dismissed out of hand.

I've seen this with my family that went down the Birther hole. (I hear you laughing in the back, UC. Pay attention.) They still say 'he's never produced his birth certificate!' I'd tell them, the Governor of Hawaii and a number of other agencies have vouched for it. They'd counter "I haven't seen it! It must be fake! The government ALWAYS fakes things like that!"

It's really frightening to hear the same kind of twisted logic and thinking the 9/11 Truth Movement uses, but coming from your own family.

They still don't know I'm an atheist. This probably isn't the time.
Click to expand...

Well I wouldn't argue that necessarily, but seems to me that only applies to the diehards (much like twoofers, who have been steadily losing numbers since 2006; only the really mulish idiots are left now) in this arena. The majority could possibly be woken up to the lunacy of their beliefs.
 
JoeyDonuts said:
... it doesn't take much to work them into an unthinking maelstrom of heavily-armed Creationist Southern Baptists who won't stop until there's a giant Ten Commandments statue (with Lee Marvin as Moses) in front of every courthouse in the land.
Click to expand...

Charlton Heston, surely?
 
Thankfully no one's actually performed an act of violence, but the fact that people are calling for it over bogus claims worries me immensely.

I just wish that these people could get some common sense; but like I always say, "common sense ain't so common".
 
Accidental Martyr said:
Just read that link. I'm getting very worried that it may only be a matter of time before there is an assassination attempt on the Pres. or other elected officials.
Click to expand...
.
Based on the e-mail virulence from the rightwingnuts I got before the election, I was surprised Obie got to the Inauguration!
 
switchpoint said:
The Tea Partiers are not the type to indulge in self-enlightenment. They jumped on this bandwagon because it echoes what they already believe. These are not folks searching for anwers - just power, influence and attention. They want reinforcement for their bias not revelation.

I just hope they stick around long enough for the elections so they can mess with the GOP.
Click to expand...

The Tea Partier I had a conversation with couldn't consider anything beyond the fact that Palin had an attractive backside! They are a disgrace to the tea industry frankly.:mgduh
 
JoeyDonuts said:
I'm certain Alex is gunning for this demographic in a big way. He rotated promos for 'The Obama Deception' on Mark Levin and Michael Savage's shows. Not sure about Rush, though.

Personally, I think this party is going to fall apart before the table even gets set.

It's really easy to find a group of people that agree on something they don't like. Harder to keep a group united around a common idea of what should be done.

I hate to see Alex Jones get any more followers than he has, but if this 'poisons the well' and cripples this movement's mainstream credibility (the kind that wins elections) then by all means buy into his crap.

Then again, I could be wrong. I hope I'm not.

Here's why.

As it stands, this 'movement' is made up almost exclusively of angry white people who are reacting to the economic conditions in the country. Well, that and the Libertarians who are too crazy for the Republican party. They're good for spoiling a get-together.

At any rate, their political socialization is suspect, their knowledge of government is next to nothing, and to cap it all off, there is serious pressure being put in this movement and directed towards Sarah Palin running for POTUS.

From what I've seen amongst my own family here in the Midwest, the Tea Party is as much about Sarah Palin as it is about any kind of laissez-faire philosophy of government. They can't start a sentence about how great the Tea Party movement is without invoking her name.

It's even more bizarre and unwarranted than the 'messianic' treatment President Obama received during the campaign. They actually think of her as the best person to lead the most powerful nation on the face of the earth.

You take a group of people who are already upset about poor economic conditions and tell them what they want to hear, and best of all - give them a bogeyman for all their problems - it doesn't take much to work them into an unthinking maelstrom of heavily-armed Creationist Southern Baptists who won't stop until there's a giant Ten Commandments statue (with Lee Marvin as Moses) in front of every courthouse in the land.

Combine this kind of unbridled fanaticism with Alex Jones' paranoid and dangerous ramblings, and you have a recipe for disaster.

Mark my words, folks - if Alex Jones succeeds in gaining traction with this group, there will be another Ruby Ridge, if not something worse due to his influence.
Click to expand...

If Sarah Palin it the "leader" of the Tea Party people, then it says the followers are more in the line of Christian conservatives or fundamentalists than conspiracy theorists.
 
Infoexcavator said:
Insane statement, Ruby Ridge was a case of government massacring its citizens and coming in guns blazing for the crime of selling some shotguns that were a bit too short.

Unless you are saying that Alex Jones makes the police act violently, I don't understand your point.

"if Alex Jones succeeds in gaining traction with this group, there will be another Lexington and Concord"

As for the topic question, they are both theorists and patriots, they are not mutually exclusive.
Click to expand...

Ruby Ridge and Waco were government actions which created the Alex Jones and Tim McVeighs of this world.
 
LightinDarkness said:
As a political science geek I have been fascinated with the Tea Party. It isn't every day in the American political system that a "third party" (and I use the term loosely) manages to maintain national media attention. I've been trying to listen to the far right/far left sources (I was listening to Air America, but they went off the air!) to try to see how each frames the Tea Party people.

There doesn't seem to be an "average" Tea Party person yet. The type of self-professed Tea Party goers that call into say, Rush Limbaugh's show are entirely different from the ones that show up to Glen Beck's rallies. And those are often different from how far-left progressive talk portrays them. The only general pattern I've noticed thus far is you have more "traditional" conservatives (low taxes, less government) who seem to like Limbaugh, and the more wacky ones showing up on the Glen Beck TV/radio show (these ones think Obama is a communist and the government will round us up into CT camps).

There seems to be three types of Tea Party members:
(1) The Hysterical Populist: These are your garden variety "get the pitch forks and storm the castle" types who are raging against anyone they perceive to be more wealthy or affluent than they are. The "bank bailouts" ignited their rage against the affluent class that they had always been angry with for being richer than them to begin with. They direct populist hysteria towards intellectuals, banks, government, etc. This is the least covered aspect of the Tea Party movement IMO.
(2) The Classical Liberal: This one seems almost libertarian to me, and focuses completely on the smaller government part of the movement and doesn't get into the social issues.
(3) The Conspiracy Theorist: This is the conspiracy type wingnut that Alex Jones would be proud of. This is the part of the movement that the left wing party hacks tend to hyper focus on.

The problem for the Tea Party movement is each of these types of people are all aiming at radically different goals. Which is probably exactly why the Tea Part won't last, because with three different factions like that you will run into trouble. Not a scientific analysis by any means, just what I've noticed listening to the fringe on both sides.
Click to expand...

You really have to add the Christian conservative/Christian Zionist to that list. One of the speakers at the Nashville event was Judge Roy Moore and his Ten Commandments.
 
fullflavormenthol said:
No Ruby Ridge was a case of a man breaking federal law through the illegal modification of a shotgun for profit. He could have manned up and actually surrendered when the cops came arrest him, but he decided to sacrifice his family on the mantle of insane militia movement believes.
Click to expand...

He was setup by the FBI and his family was executed by the FBI.
 
Alferd_Packer said:
I have been reading the first book of Bruce Catton's Civil War history, "The Coming Fury" and I am fascinated by the similarities between groups like the know-nothings and the southern democrats of 1860 and the tea partiers of today.

While I doubt that the 2012 elections will play out like the 1860 election, I have no doubt that there will be some who will push the similarities.
Click to expand...


If there is a total economic collapse within the next few years then the country will break-up.

America is held together only by the "almighty dollar".
 
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