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Old 7th March 2010, 07:59 PM   #1
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Did the Zionists prevent Jews from being saved during the Holocaust?

I found the following accusations on a Hasidic anti-Zionist website:

"President Roosevelt convened the Evian conference July 6-15 1938, to deal with the Jewish refugee problem. The Jewish Agency delegation headed by Golda Meir (Meirson) ignored a German offer to allow Jews to emigrate to other countries for $250 a head, and the Zionists made no effort to influence the United States and the 32 other countries attending the conference to allow immigration of German and Austrian Jews.
[Source]

On Feb 1, 1940 Henry Montor executive vice-President of the United Jewish Appeal refused to intervene for a shipload of Jewish refugees stranded on the Danube river, stating that "Palestine cannot be flooded with... old people or with undesirables."
[Source]

It is an historical fact that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that:
a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and
b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and
c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily.

The Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey received this offer with the clear understanding that the exclusion of Palestine as a destination for the deportees was based on an agreement between the Gestapo and the Mufti.
The answer of the Zionist leaders was negative, with the following comments:

a) ONLY Palestine would be considered as a destination for the deportees.
b) The European Jews must accede to suffering and death greater in measure than the other nations, in order that the victorious allies agree to a "Jewish State" at the end of the war.
c) No ransom will be paid

This response to the Gestapo's offer was made with the full knowledge that the alternative to this offer was the gas chamber.
These treacherous Zionist leaders betrayed their own flesh and blood. Zionism was never an option for Jewish salvation. Quite the opposite, it was a formula for human beings to be used as pawns for the power trip of several desperadoes. A perfidy! A betrayal beyond description!
In 1944, at the time of the Hungarian deportations, a similar offer was made, whereby all Hungarian Jewry could be saved. The same Zionist hierarchy again refused this offer (after the gas chambers had already taken a toll of millions).

The British government granted visas to 300 rabbis and their families to the Colony of Mauritius, with passage for the evacuees through Turkey. The "Jewish Agency" leaders sabotaged this plan with the observation that the plan was disloyal to Palestine, and the 300 rabbis and their families should be gassed.

On December 17, 1942 both houses of the British Parliament declared its readiness to find temporary refuge for endagered persons. The British Parliament proposed to evacuate 500,000 Jews from Europe, and resettle them in British colonies, as a part of diplomatic negotiations with Germany. This motion received within two weeks a total of 277 Parliamentary signatures. On Jan. 27, when the next steps were being pursued by over 100 M.P.'s and Lords, a spokesman for the Zionists announced that the Jews would oppose the motion because Palestine was ommitted.
[Source]

On Feb. 16, 1943 Roumania offered 70,000 Jewish refugees of the Trans-Dniestria to leave at the cost of $50 each. This was publicized in the New York papers.

Yitzhak Greenbaum, Chairman of the Rescue Committee of the Jewish Agency, addressing the Zionist Executive Council in Tel Aviv Feb. 18 1943 said, "when they asked me, "couldn't you give money out of the United Jewish Appeal funds for the rescue of Jews in Europe, I said NO! and I say again, NO!...one should resist this wave which pushes the Zionist activities to secondary importance."

On Feb. 24, 1943 Stephen Wise, President of the American Jewish Congress and leader of the American Zionists issued a public refusal to this offer and declared no collection of funds would seem justified.
In 1944, the Emergency Committee to Save the Jewish People called upon the American government to establish a War Refugee Board. Stephen Wise testifying before a special committeeof Congress objected to this proposal.
[Source]

During the course of the negotiations mentioned above, Chaim Weizman, the first "Jewish statesman" stated: "The most valuable part of the Jewish nation is already in Palestine, and those Jews living outside Palestine are not too important". Weizman's cohort, Greenbaum, amplified this statement with the observation "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Europe".
And then, after the bitterest episode in Jewish history, these Zionist "statesmen" lured the broken refugees in the DP camps to remain in hunger and deprivation, and to refuse relocation to any place but Palestine; only for the purpose of building their State.

In 1947 Congressman William Stration sponsored a bill to immediately grant entry to the United States of 400,000 displaced persons. The bill was not passed after it was publicly denounced by the Zionist leadership.
[Source]

These facts are read with consternation and unbearable shame. How can it be explained that at a time during the last phase of the war, when the Nazis were willing to barter Jews for money, partly because of their desires to establish contact with the Western powers which, they believed, were under Jewish influence, how was it possible one asks that the self-proclaimed "Jewish leaders" did not move heaven and earth to save the last remnant of their brothers?

On Feb. 23, 1956 the Hon. J. W. Pickersgill, Minister for Immigration was asked in the Canadian House of Commons "would he open the doors of Canada to Jewish refugees". He replied "the government has made no progress in that direction because the government of Israel....does not wish us to do so".
[Source]

In 1972, the Zionist leadership successfully opposed an effort in the United States Congress to allow 20,000-30,000 Russian refugees to enter the United States.
Jewish relief organizations, Joint and HIAS, were being pressured to abandon these refugees in Vienna, Rome and other Europiean cities.
[Source]

The pattern is clear!!! Humanitarian rescue efforts are subverted to narrow Zionist interests.

There were many more shocking crimes committed by these abject degenerates known as "Jewish statesmen", we could list many more example, but for the time being let anyone produce a valid excuse for the above facts.

is there any truth to these allegations?

Did the Zionist leadership prevent Jews from fleeing the Holocaust because they would not go to Palestine?

Did the Zionist leadership seek to maximize the Jewish casualty number, as to get as much of a tragedy as possible...to inflate sympathy for the Zionist enterprise?

I do remember reading years ago, that David Ben Gurion said: "If I knew it was possible to save all [Jewish] children of Germany by their transfer to England and only half of them by transferring them to Eretz-Yisrael, I would choose the latter----because we are faced not only with the accounting of these [Jewish] children but also with the historical accounting of the Jewish People." (Righteous Victims, p. 162)

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Old 7th March 2010, 08:33 PM   #2
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How low can you go. Well now I know.

No the allegations are not true. I will only deal with a couple of examples here:

Regarding Greenbaum's speech:
Quote:
On money from Zionist organisations, I assume you are referring to the quote used by Ben Hecht in Perfidy (p.50)where Itzhak Gruenbaum, chief of the Rescue Committee of the Jewish Agency, said in Tel Aviv in 1943:

"When they asked me, couldn’t you give money out of the United Jewish Appeal funds for the rescue of the Jews of Europe, I said, ‘No!’ And I say again ‘No!’ In my opinion one should resist this wave which pushes the Zionist activities to secondary importance."

This quote is torn out of context. Hecht fails to quote other passages from that speech which would put that sentence in the proper light. In fact, Gruenbaum stressed:

"we must continue with all our rescue operations and not leave a stone unturned to stop the massacre…. I want to emphasize again, in conclusion, that we must do all in our power to help people and to save lives, to the extent that lives may still be saved."

(See, "Ben Hecht’s Perfidy: An Analysis of His Rewriting of History," [The American Section of the Executive of the World Zionist Organization and the Jewish Agency, New York, 1962] which was published in later editions of Perfidy and available on line at

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache...ust/hecht.html

Gruenbaum was arguing that the war should not interrupt the Zionist project for Jewish settlement in Palestine. He wanted rescue funds to come from other sources. Despite this, when Gruenbaum finished that speech, there was uproar. Leaders insisted that the primary goal of the Zionist movement was saving the Jews of Europe. They argued even rescue plans that seemed fantastic should be approved. The resolution that was passed at that meeting was that the newly formed Rescue Committee look into ways of funding the exploration of rescue possibilities.

(See Dina Porat, The Blue and the Yellow Stars of David, op.cit. p.76).
Here is an example, from the same source, where Zionist leaders tried to convince other governments to save Jews:
Quote:
If you had done so you would know, as Dina Porat points out, (The Blue and Yellow Stars of David op. cit., p.112) that "Moshe Shertok approached the U.S. and British governments for help in convincing Spain, Portugal and Switzerland to accept more Jewish refugees." You would also know that Dobkin and Weissman of the JAE "reached an agreement with the Spanish government to accept 3,000 more children from Hungary, to grant 1,600 more transit visas for adults from Hungary and to extend Spanish protection to 900 more Jews of Spanish origin. Dobkin also reached an agreement with the Portuguese government to grant visas to any Jews who claimed that their ancestors had once lived in Portugal." (Ibid. p. 115) The list goes on and I can quote further, but as I have repeatedly suggested you should read the book. If you did so you would realise that it is not a one sided book, you could read a whole chapter on the Joint Rescue Committee which was quite ineffective, you would note admissions from Zionist leaders that they could have done more.
Now I could try to look for more (the blog I linked to have more, with sources), but frankly, I am not interested. Do your dirty work yourself. Welcome to ignore.
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Old 7th March 2010, 08:56 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Doctor Evil View Post
Now I could try to look for more (the blog I linked to have more, with sources), but frankly, I am not interested. Do your dirty work yourself. Welcome to ignore.
i have known of these accusations for years. I have known about the Ben-Gurion quote for years.

only now have I decided to finally ask...are they true?

sorry if that offends you. I think the Jewish people have the right to know if the Zionist movement during WW2 worked against saving the lives of Jews if they were not going to Palestine.

and by the way, Ben-Gurion is not the last Jew to believe that a Jewish refugee who flees to America or England is a wasted Jew. I recall many Jews arguing that after the fall of the USSR, that all refugees should go to Israel and NOT the USA or Germany. Such would be a waste, they argued.

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Old 8th March 2010, 09:19 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
I found the following accusations on a Hasidic anti-Zionist website:
And we all know that if it's some accusation on an internet web site, it deserves serious discussion.

Well, when it blames zionists or other people parky doesn't like, at least.

You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here, parky.

Doctor Evil is correct. Go ahead believe anything you want about the eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil zionists. I'm done with you.

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Old 8th March 2010, 09:40 AM   #5
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Parky,

Why spark the discussion with a website like that?

I suggest The Seventh Million by Tom Segev on this subject.

It's been fifteen years since I read it. As I remember it shows the Zionists in an unflattering light as their attitude towards the victims was shameful.

But They were just a political group with a militia. When the refugees started arriving after the war, the Zionists could hardly afford to feed and house them.*

When the Nazi's were selling survivors, the Zionists didn't have a pot to piss in.




*That's why it wasn't exactly lamented that many Arabs fled, the refugees moved straight into their houses.
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Old 8th March 2010, 09:59 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
I found the following accusations on a Hasidic anti-Zionist website:
(...)
While I am by no means a scholar on the subject and clearly realize how lacking my knowledge on the field is, there is a couple of things that jump to me as highly suspicious.
-The website assume that the "Zionists" was a unified movement which is not true, it was a complex nebula of competing agenda. Even if some members of the Zionist movement were guilty of the crimes attributed to them, it would be a stretch to blame the movement at a whole.
-The website also states that the "Zionists" knew of the gas chambers in 41 or 42. As far as I know, the secret was well kept until very late in the war. Certainly, rumors existed, but most people did reject them as extravagant or allied propaganda.
-The site also seem to attribute quite a lot of power to the Zionist movement, which I don't think they had at the time. They were poor and support from Great Britain was mixed to say the least, and the British had other things to focus on at the time anyway.

It all seems very suspicious to me...
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Old 8th March 2010, 11:16 AM   #7
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A relevant book, which criticizes Tom Segev's book, is Ben-Gurion and the Holocaust by Teveth. I can not attest to it as I have not read it. Here is (part of) a review by an author of a book on America and the Holocaust:
Quote:
In 1939 the British had imposed a limit of 75,000 Jews who could enter Palestine over the next five years. In late 1942, when the Nazi program of genocide became known, only 29,000 places remained. Even with knowledge of the Holocaust, Britain held adamantly to that limit. Meanwhile, no other country was willing to take in Jewish refugees except in very small numbers.



These limitations choked off most possibilities for rescue. Hopes did rise in December 1942, when the British Government indicated that it would permit 5,000 Jewish children to come to Palestine from Bulgaria. Arrangements went forward in Palestine for transportation and reception of the young refugees. But bureaucratic obstacles soon began to appear and the plan came to nothing. The British, pretending to support it, had done what was necessary to undermine it.



Teveth's chapter on the question of bombing Auschwitz offers additional proof that Ben-Gurion and his followers pressed for rescue. The chapter demonstrates once again that bombing the Auschwitz gas chambers was technically feasible and that neither the United States nor Britain was willing to look seriously into the possibilities, even though Allied bombers frequently struck targets near Auschwitz. But Teveth's documentation also thoroughly disproves recent unsubstantiated claims that Jewish leaders in Palestine, including Ben-Gurion, and in other countries as well, opposed bombing Auschwitz.


''Ben-Gurion and the Holocaust'' has some weaknesses. Because of its structure, it is sometimes repetitious. It occasionally goes into excessive detail on side issues. And when the author moves into the American side of the story he appears to be on unfamiliar ground: while the failures of the American Jewish leadership during the Holocaust were many, Teveth's criticisms are too sweeping.

In the end, Teveth maintains that Israel's leading Holocaust scholars agree that the Palestine Jewish community could not have done significantly more than it did. ''The rescue efforts,'' he concludes, ''were defeated first and foremost by the Germans. Second in culpability were Germany's satellites, followed by the British, who not only failed to lift a finger to rescue Jews but . . . did their best to obstruct . . . rescue efforts in order to block immigration to Palestine. Last came the indifferent world, especially the United States.'' Ben-Gurion struggled against these obstacles with little success. Teveth argues persuasively that in the final analysis ''his lack of success had nothing to do with Zionist ideology, his attitude toward Diaspora Jews or his obsession with a Jewish state.''
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Old 8th March 2010, 11:30 AM   #8
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Another book is Arrows in the Dark, by Tuvia Frilling:
Quote:
The book describes, interprets and analyzes the manifold rescue operations conducted by the Yishuv: the plan for the rescue of children (end of 1942 until the end of the war), including Adler-Rudel's efforts from Sweden; the Transnistria Plan (end of 1942 until February-March 1943); the Slovakia Plan that eventually developed into the Europa Plan (end of 1942- Ocotboer 1943); the "Blood for Trucks" proposal that Joel Brand and Bandi Grosz brought from Hungary (spring 1944 – summer 1944); the clandestine collaboration with Allied intelligence services, including the Paratroopers Plan, and others.

.........

While Shabtai Teveth, Ben Gurion's biographer, attempts to prove that the small scope of Ben Gurion’s activity on behalf of Europe’s Jews can be explained by the prevailing belief that it was impossible to save the Jews, Friling introduces a new approach in the research of this issue. He claims that Ben Gurion was deeply involved at all levels in all rescue efforts, but that these activities were mostly clandestine, and thus were conducted in secrecy and were almost never discussed openly. Ben Gurion even kept silent in face of the accusations about his lack of action. This was compounded by the fact that the rescue operations were of the kind that are best left concealed. Moreover, since most of these efforts were doomed to fail, any explanation would have been perceived as a lame excuse.
Again, having not read that one, I can not really make useful comments.
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Old 8th March 2010, 11:46 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Parky,

Why spark the discussion with a website like that?

I suggest The Seventh Million by Tom Segev on this subject.

It's been fifteen years since I read it. As I remember it shows the Zionists in an unflattering light as their attitude towards the victims was shameful.

But They were just a political group with a militia. When the refugees started arriving after the war, the Zionists could hardly afford to feed and house them.*

When the Nazi's were selling survivors, the Zionists didn't have a pot to piss in.

*That's why it wasn't exactly lamented that many Arabs fled, the refugees moved straight into their houses.
The Rothchilds(funded the Zionists and WWII) have owned the world since the 1700's.
The British Crown Pharonic/Hebrew bloodline since before that.
WWII went pretty much the way they wanted it to, including Nuremberg.

The Blue Bloodline can be traced back to Egypt. The British coronation throne has the stone of Jacob under it..

Thats why there are "regular" Jews and the Blue Blood line. At this point I dont even think the Blue Bloods care that they are Jewish.
They just use it as an excuse stir up the pot at the expense of good Jews.....

Its a tragedy. They have corrupted the worlds good....
It all about power and money at every bodies(cept Zionists) expense.
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Old 8th March 2010, 11:55 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by brantc View Post
The Rothchilds(funded the Zionists and WWII) have owned the world since the 1700's.
The British Crown Pharonic/Hebrew bloodline since before that.
WWII went pretty much the way they wanted it to, including Nuremberg.

The Blue Bloodline can be traced back to Egypt. The British coronation throne has the stone of Jacob under it..

Thats why there are "regular" Jews and the Blue Blood line. At this point I dont even think the Blue Bloods care that they are Jewish.
They just use it as an excuse stir up the pot at the expense of good Jews.....

Its a tragedy. They have corrupted the worlds good....
It all about power and money at every bodies(cept Zionists) expense.


Stundied.
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Old 8th March 2010, 01:00 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Doctor Evil View Post


Stundied.
Damn.

You could have stundied each sentence separately.
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Old 8th March 2010, 01:56 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by brantc View Post
The Rothchilds(funded the Zionists and WWII) have owned the world since the 1700's.
The British Crown Pharonic/Hebrew bloodline since before that.
WWII went pretty much the way they wanted it to, including Nuremberg.
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Old 8th March 2010, 01:59 PM   #13
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did any wealthy Jews offer to buy 100,000 Jews or so for a billion dollars?

hell, I bet Hitler would have sold us a million Jews for 10 billion dollars.

"you provide safe passage for 1 million European Jews to the eastern USSR, North America, or China, and we will give you $10 billion."

seems like a good deal to me. was any such offer made?

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Old 8th March 2010, 02:10 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
did any wealthy Jews offer to buy 100,000 Jews or so for a billion dollars?

hell, I bet Hitler would have sold us a million Jews for 10 billion dollars.

"you provide safe passage for 1 million European Jews to the eastern USSR, North America, or China, and we will give you $10 billion."

seems like a good deal to me. was any such offer made?
Without having researched the subject, I suspect that all these wealthy Jews were in countries that were at war with Germany.
I don't think the governments in those countries would have allowed it.

I am more puzzled by the alleged influence that the Mufti of Jerusalem had in Berlin. Why would the Nazi's even listen to his objections?
I'm sure it wasn't out of consideration.

Does anybody know?
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Old 8th March 2010, 02:12 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Without having researched the subject, I suspect that all these wealthy Jews were in countries that were at war with Germany.
I don't think the governments in those countries would have allowed it.
what about wealthy Jews in the USA and Britain?

would they have forbid these Jews from buying 1 million Jews?

something tells me a lot more could have been done to save Europe's Jews. we may have gone bankrupt doing it, but a life is worth more than money.
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Old 8th March 2010, 02:38 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
what about wealthy Jews in the USA and Britain?

would they have forbid these Jews from buying 1 million Jews?
I don't think they would have allowed the transfer of a billion dollars to an enemy state. And I suspect the FBI was very busy keeping an eye on such activity.

Especially when the only thing you're getting back for your money is boatloads of lice-ridden traumatised children.

Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
something tells me a lot more could have been done to save Europe's Jews. we may have gone bankrupt doing it, but a life is worth more than money.
I agree with this. More could have been done.

Oddly, due to my family's history, I have never wanted to look into the history of the Holocaust. So, now I know more about the ancient Romans then about the genocide in which my family got caught up.

My wife is Italian-German. She had one grandfather who was literally a card carrying Nazi and another who made it out of Stalingrad (sans a couple of fingers).

Now I'm interested in learning about the period because we are such a weird mix. It's like we are mocking that whole cauldron of death and destruction by having kids.

Still, when I read about the Holocaust, I get depressed and fearful. I project the events on my own family. It's all to horrible to comprehend.
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Old 8th March 2010, 03:18 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Still, when I read about the Holocaust, I get depressed and fearful. I project the events on my own family. It's all to horrible to comprehend.
I have never been to a Holocaust museum. The closest thing was the exhibit at the British War Museum. Even that was too much for me. I am going to Prague and Vienna this summer and have no intention of seeing any concentration camps. I just can't handle it.

but, what troubles me even more, is the possibility that some of my fellow Jews would actually hamper efforts or even simply ignore efforts to save Jews, just because the solution did not fit their narrow-minded political agenda of the time.
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Old 8th March 2010, 04:28 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I don't think they would have allowed the transfer of a billion dollars to an enemy state. And I suspect the FBI was very busy keeping an eye on such activity.
Thank you for reminding us of the "obvious". What would be the point bombing Germany's factories to ruin their economy while sending over large amounts of money to rebuild it. The US aircrew shot over Schweinfurt would probably be more than a bit upset.
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Old 8th March 2010, 04:42 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I am more puzzled by the alleged influence that the Mufti of Jerusalem had in Berlin. Why would the Nazi's even listen to his objections?
I'm sure it wasn't out of consideration.

Does anybody know?
They used him to i) get allies in the Arab world, via a propaganda network and ii) recruit Bosnian Muslims to fight for the Nazis.
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Old 8th March 2010, 09:13 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
I found the following accusations on a Hasidic anti-Zionist website:


The reasonable thing to do would have been to leave them there.
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Old 9th March 2010, 12:16 PM   #21
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I would add one more point, regarding the Evian conference. Here are the responses of some important Zionist leaders to the (lack) of results of the conference:
Quote:
In her autobiography My Life (1975), Golda Meir described her outrage being in "the ludicrous capacity of the [Jewish] observer from Palestine, not even seated with the delegates, although the refugees under discussion were my own people...." After the conference, Meir told the press: "There is only one thing I hope to see before I die and that is that my people should not need expressions of sympathy anymore."[7] Chaim Weizmann was quoted in The Manchester Guardian as saying: "The world seemed to be divided into two parts – those places where the Jews could not live and those where they could not enter."[8]
Clear enough?
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Old 9th March 2010, 09:34 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
The reasonable thing to do would have been to leave them there.
What, and miss the chance to spread ridiculous Israel-bashing conspiracy theories?
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Old 10th March 2010, 04:40 AM   #23
Soapy Sam
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
I have never been to a Holocaust museum. The closest thing was the exhibit at the British War Museum. Even that was too much for me. I am going to Prague and Vienna this summer and have no intention of seeing any concentration camps. I just can't handle it.

but, what troubles me even more, is the possibility that some of my fellow Jews would actually hamper efforts or even simply ignore efforts to save Jews, just because the solution did not fit their narrow-minded political agenda of the time.
The belief that the end justifies the means is common in most histories. That it would turn up in the attitudes of a group of political zealots with a belief in divinely inspired rectitude is hardly unexpected. It's a human trait, in no sense an exclusively "Jewish" one- but yes, it's always particularly upsetting to realise a group you identify with in some way can behave as badly as the enemies you share.

I'm a Scot and when I dig into the reality of the Covenanters and the Highland roots of the KKK, I occasionally wish I wasn't.
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Old 10th March 2010, 05:25 AM   #24
fleabeetle
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Originally Posted by Soapy Sam View Post
The belief that the end justifies the means is common in most histories. That it would turn up in the attitudes of a group of political zealots with a belief in divinely inspired rectitude is hardly unexpected. It's a human trait, in no sense an exclusively "Jewish" one- but yes, it's always particularly upsetting to realise a group you identify with in some way can behave as badly as the enemies you share.

I'm a Scot and when I dig into the reality of the Covenanters and the Highland roots of the KKK, I occasionally wish I wasn't.
Last line of of post, re KKK – as mentioned in “The Fiery Cross” by Diana Gabaldon – novel in her 18th / 20th century time-travel series – with 20th-century-transplanted-into-18th characters, agonising over the implications.

I tend to find it comforting rather than upsetting, that perceived – group-or-nation-wise -- “goodies”, can behave as badly as perceived ditto “baddies”. Reassures me that on the whole, people worldwide are mostly just people – a highly-assorted mix running the gamut between virtuous, and vile (and varying according to circumstances) – and on the whole, better individually and personally, than in tribal or national units. Don’t know whether that makes me a callous bastard, or a dripping-wet unrealistic liberal , or a bit of both.
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Old 10th March 2010, 12:11 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Soapy Sam View Post
I'm a Scot and when I dig into the reality of the Covenanters and the Highland roots of the KKK, I occasionally wish I wasn't.
I don't disagree with your general point, but you're implicitly assuming here parky's latest "Israel / zionism is eeeeeeeeeeeevil, I tell you, eeeeeeeeevil!" has any merit. It doesn't, of course.
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Old 13th March 2010, 12:06 AM   #26
Sword_Of_Truth
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
I found the following accusations on a Hasidic anti-Zionist website:
Do I dare guess which holocaust cheering website that was?
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Old 15th March 2010, 06:24 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
Do I dare guess which holocaust cheering website that was?

adl.org?
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