If Darwin was Right, Hitler wasn't Wrong

quixotecoyote

Howling to glory I go
Q
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And other similar topics coming to my town next week as part of the Creation to Revelation conference.

Other offerings include:
  • Did Darwin murder God?
  • Evolution and the Antichrist Agenda
  • Ape Men: Don't Make a Monkey out of Yourself
  • When Evolution goes Extinct

http://www.creationconferences.com

I'd consider making up some pamphlets and leaving them at the hotel site, but what is the point when you're dealing with this level of crazy?

So glad I'm outta here next month.
 
Is it just me, or are they too stupid to list a city and state for the conference???
 
Well they've been advertising it with mailings in town. I doubt they're trying to attract people from far enough away that they wouldn't know where the DoubleTree Hotel is.
 
I simply don't understand the argument that if Hitler justified the Holocaust with evolution, that makes evolution not true.

Creationists always seem to misunderstand and think that "more evolved" means better. So that if Hitler thought Aryans were more evolved than Jews or gypsies or whatever, that made them "better" according to Darwinan theory.

In reality, a species is considered more successful when it STOPS evolving, or at least, evolves very little. If it stops evolving, that means its so well designed, it doesn't need improvement. For instance, sharks, which are much less evolved than humans in that humans have changed more over time than sharks, but are regularly referred to as "the perfect predator" precisely BECAUSE they have existed as they are for so long, unlike the ever evolving family tree we come from.

Hitler's beliefs have far more foundation in the Great Chain of Being than in Darwin's works.

Next, scientific facts don't have a moral context. It's just knowledge, it's just facts. Knowledge can be used for good or evil. They aren't in and of themselves bad. Just because someone uses science to do or to justify a real bad thing, that doesn't make the scientific principal not true.

If I'm an arsonist, and I love blowing things up and watching them burn so I can see the awesome power of combustion, and I use the principals of physics and engineering to build a bomb and blow up a city just so I can watch it burn...that doesn't somehow mean that physics, engineering, and fire do not exist.
 
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Plus. Darwin spends a lot of time in his TOE book describing artificial selection as practiced by pigeon breeders and etc. He then uses these practices to explain how natural selection might work. He is descriptive not proscriptive. He makes no claims as to what should be done, only what happens naturally.
 
Actually, Hitler's fantasy was based on the philosophy of the person seen in my signature (which was somewhat based on Darwin).

Might i point out that that Neitzsche wrote in a letter to his sister something to the affect that all anti-semitists should be round up and shot.
 
Actually there is far more variation within a "race" than between "races." In fact many Americans who claim to be white have got black ancestors within the last 300 years.
 
Evolution and Nazi Germany: Two unconnected, and unrelated things, linked together only in the minds of those ignorant enough to confuse evolution with eugenics, and eugenics with genocide.

A
 
Christians will twist anything

Christians, especially those in the United Christian States of America will twist any statement to try to prove that the worst book of fiction, the "Holy" Bible is the true inerrant of a non-existant "god".
 
Andrew Wiggin said:
Evolution and Nazi Germany: Two unconnected, and unrelated things, linked together only in the minds of those ignorant enough to confuse evolution with eugenics, and eugenics with genocide.

A[/QUOTE
The thought process is much like this: "Bad Thing is almost like Other Bad Thing, so our Thing is Good!" It's the same reasoning that's used in politics where extremists think communists are coming to socialize their fascism.
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Events like this are like the occasional tetanic flop of a fish lying on a riverbank. It looks like life, but it's actually the death throes. The asteroid has landed, the dinos are dead. It just takes time for their nervous system to catch on.
 
Of course, if the Nazis' using evolution to justify their genocide makes evolution invalid, atrocities inspired by the Bible must do the same for Christianity, no? Or is that completely different?
 
Darwin came before Hitler. Darwin didn't advocate mass murder. Hitler corrupted Darwins science for his own purposes. You can't add morality to scientific facts.

Humans evolved a tendency to want to live in harmony with their fellow man. Hitler was an evil man who went against this tendency.
 
Also Hitler proposed that purity was necessary and moral, whereas Darwin's theory proposed that lack of diversity is detrimental to the survival of a species. A diverse species is more likely to survive extraordinary events and a changing environment. Hitler and the Nazis may have at times used the trappings of evolutionary theory for their political purposes but they certainly ignored the very glaring contradictions between the science of evolution and their philosophy.

Social Darwinism is to Darwin's theory of evolution what LARPing is to medeival warfare. Trappings are similar, but all of the problematic issues of the reality of one is ignored in favor of the goal of the undertaking of the other.
 
quixotecoyote said:
And other similar topics coming to my town next week as part of the Creation to Revelation conference.

Other offerings include:
  • Did Darwin murder God?
  • Evolution and the Antichrist Agenda
  • Ape Men: Don't Make a Monkey out of Yourself
  • When Evolution goes Extinct

http://www.creationconferences.com

I'd consider making up some pamphlets and leaving them at the hotel site, but what is the point when you're dealing with this level of crazy?

So glad I'm outta here next month.
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One of the quickest Godwins in Earth history.
 
These people, or someone just like them, came to my city last year. They left a flyer on my storm door "inviting" me to attend. I shared the flyer with my friends at work. We all laughed at the art work and thought about going just to ask questions and see how they wiggled around the answers. Don't remember what it cost, but I decided that my time was too valuable to waste on fundies.
 
eccles said:
Christians, especially those in the United Christian States of America will twist any statement to try to prove that the worst book of fiction, the "Holy" Bible is the true inerrant of a non-existant "god".
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Worst in what way pray tell?
 
cienanos said:
Worst in what way pray tell?
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Because the rambling "just so" stories written by Bronze Age goat herders purport to be the actual Words of God. As antique fiction it is as amusing as other such writings. But it has little relevance to today's world.

:th:
 
I can't find any quotes that indicate the Nazis actually referenced Darwin as justification for their eugenics efforts. Am I missing them? I heard they burned Darwin's books in Berlin, and a basic knowledge of animal husbandry seems to be all you would need to get to eugenics.

Is this something I would have learned if I watched Expelled?
 
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Soapy Sam said:
Events like this are like the occasional tetanic flop of a fish lying on a riverbank. It looks like life, but it's actually the death throes. The asteroid has landed, the dinos are dead. It just takes time for their nervous system to catch on.
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I am not following your metaphor. Who or what you think is "dead"?
 
Gord_in_Toronto said:
Because the rambling "just so" stories written by Bronze Age goat herders purport to be the actual Words of God. As antique fiction it is as amusing as other such writings. But it has little relevance to today's world.

:th:
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Actually it is quite relevant. That is the problem. Twilight and Harry Potter are irrelevant. Hence they are rarely an issue of import when people attempt to apply them to the real world. The bible is archaic and outdated. I completely support that interpetation.
 
"If Darwin was right, Hitler wasn't wrong"

"Darwin was right" = evolution
"Hitler wasn't wrong" = genocide to improve the gene pool

So these people are claiming that if there is evolution, then genocide is justified if it improves the gene pool.

Maybe we shouldn't be trying to convince these that evolution is actually real.
 
Mister Agenda said:
I can't find any quotes that indicate the Nazis actually referenced Darwin as justification for their eugenics efforts. Am I missing them? I heard they burned Darwin's books in Berlin, and a basic knowledge of animal husbandry seems to be all you would need to get to eugenics.
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Correct. Social Darwinism is a term that was applied to a set of theories and philosophies after their development and is quite misleading as these were concepts often in competition with Darwin's theories. He considered Social Darwinist philosophies, discarded them, and even warned against them when his observations of humans had the possibility of being misused in this way.

Is this something I would have learned if I watched Expelled?
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Actually yes.
It is also a main argument in the 2008 movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. These claims are widely criticized within the academic community.[26][27][28][29][30][31] The Anti-Defamation League has rejected such attempts to link Darwin's ideas with Nazi atrocities, and has stated that "Using the Holocaust in order to tarnish those who promote the theory of evolution is outrageous and trivializes the complex factors that led to the mass extermination of European Jewry."
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Social_darwinism#Criticisms_and_controversiesWP
 
Michael Redman said:
"If Darwin was right, Hitler wasn't wrong"

"Darwin was right" = evolution
"Hitler wasn't wrong" = genocide to improve the gene pool

So these people are claiming that if there is evolution, then genocide is justified if it improves the gene pool.

Maybe we shouldn't be trying to convince these that evolution is actually real.
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Exactly!
These are the same people who say that only a faith in a god keeps them from going on a murderous rape spree.

So many of their arguments seem to be that they themselves need their elaborate self deception in order to be decent human beings.
 
Gord_in_Toronto said:
Because the rambling "just so" stories written by Bronze Age goat herders purport to be the actual Words of God. As antique fiction it is as amusing as other such writings. But it has little relevance to today's world.

:th:
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It truly is a breathtaking thing to see... FEAR is one bad mamma-jamma, man.

The reality I see though, is that most people simply lack the ability to think critically -- consistently. My guess would be that it's been this way for quite some time. So, some ambitious dudes write some books about Fear. There's special effects and some begats in there too, but mostly, the source material is Fear.

Fear is instant. The natural inclination to counter this would be another instant. Faith. A self-preservation switch. Natural, easy, and no critical thinking required.

I suppose what my ramblings are about, is that I do think these works of fiction are relevant today. Religion is like this crappy life jacket that gives those who can't swim a fighting chance.
 
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The Fallen Serpent said:
Actually it is quite relevant. That is the problem. Twilight and Harry Potter are irrelevant. Hence they are rarely an issue of import when people attempt to apply them to the real world. The bible is archaic and outdated. I completely support that interpetation.
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I think you have misinterpreted my response. Please see the post I was actually responding to. ;)
 
Gord_in_Toronto said:
I think you have misinterpreted my response. Please see the post I was actually responding to. ;)
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I think we are on the same page. I was not disagreeing with considering the bible "the worst", at least not in my above response, but arguing the choice of words. The bible is so harmful because it is relevant and grounded in backwards ideology. I think there are worse fictions, but their lack of relevance makes them less harmful. A sociopathic ideology would be worse in practice, but also is irrelevant since few people are sociopathic. The bible builds on delusion, irrationality and fear which are elements most people are susceptible to.

Harry Potter would be horrible if relevant becuase it means segregating the world into two factions. One faction has greatly useful skills that they refuse to use in cooperation with the other "lesser" faction.

Wizards are :rule10
 
cienanos said:
The Fallen Serpent, terrorist fist bump on that wizards link yo
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Thank you I think? :D

Imagine if in the distant future the Harry Potter anthology is translated and interpeted with the mistake that "magic" meant "engineering" and people thought the series was a great example of how life should be lived. This would make it relevant and quite horrible.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Really? Didn't Hitler die childless and the German population shrink in that war?
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I find it ironic that Social Darwinist ideologies fail to survive when applied to reality. Their inability to flourish when in competition against other social ideologies means that by their own strictures they are not fit to survive. They are self defeating.
 
Mister Agenda said:
I can't find any quotes that indicate the Nazis actually referenced Darwin as justification for their eugenics efforts. Am I missing them? I heard they burned Darwin's books in Berlin, and a basic knowledge of animal husbandry seems to be all you would need to get to eugenics.

Is this something I would have learned if I watched Expelled?
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Mister agenda,
You are absolutely right. Darwinism was banned in Nazi Germany, and copies of On the Origin of Species were burned:

"6. Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism." -Guidelines from Die Bücherei, 1935 (which listed writings would be banned under the Nazi regime)


Even IF Hitler used Darwin to justify his actions, it wouldn't make Darwinism not true.

However, he never did, and in fact banned and burned Darwin's works.

That is what makes Christian claims that Darwinism lead to the Holocaust so egregious.

I was surprised to hear Ben Stein a couple years ago make mention of the fact that the teaching of evolution is partially to blame for the holocaust. That just goes to show that it doesn't matter how intelligent and well read you are: you still have a capactiy for stupidity just like everyone else.
 
The Fallen Serpent said:
Thank you I think? :D

Imagine if in the distant future the Harry Potter anthology is translated and interpeted with the mistake that "magic" meant "engineering" and people thought the series was a great example of how life should be lived. This would make it relevant and quite horrible.
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There is a God awful B movie called "Live Freaky, Die Freaky" in which in a post apocalyptic future, survivors find a copy of the book about the Manson murders "Helter Skelter" and mistakes it for a Biblical type text, with Charles Manson as the savior.
 
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