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Tags bigfoot , Bob Gimlin , Bob Heironimus , Patterson-Gimlin film , Roger Patterson

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Old 11th March 2010, 09:17 AM   #1
kitakaze
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Calling All Skeptics! Help Kitakaze End PGF Controversy - Pitch to Discovery Channel

Hi, all. I'm Kitakaze and I have a mission. This is me...



My Canadian family calls me Joshua and my Japanese family calls me Joshu. Most people call me Kitakaze, or just Kaze. Kitakaze is Japanese for "north wind." I picked up the name when I joined a soul/rock/house band in the late 90's and toured around North America. I was DJing and producing music underground dance music at the time under the name Northwind. I picked that up one day I was in the eleventh grade sitting one day in class in a daze as my eyes settled on the following passage from Emily Bronte's Wuthering Heights, which we had been assigned to read...

Quote:
Wuthering Heights is the name of Mr. Heathcliff's dwelling. 'Wuthering' being a significant provincial adjective, descriptive of the atmospheric tumult to which its station is exposed in stormy weather. Pure, bracing ventilation they must have up there at all times, indeed: one may guess the power of the north wind blowing over the edge, by the excessive slant of a few stunted firs at the end of the house; and by a range of gaunt thorns all stretching their limbs one way, as if craving alms of the sun. Happily, the architect had foresight to build it strong: the narrow windows are deeply set in the wall, and the corners defended with large jutting stones.
I am a skeptic and regular contributor to the JREF forums and have been since early 2006. I found the JREF four years ago through regular reading of another board called the Bigfoot Forums. Bigfoot I found about twenty years before that as an inquisitive and bookish child in the third grade. In the library of my elementary school on Vancouver Island on the west coast of Canada I found the books of Canadian Bigfoot enthusiast and writer John Green. They were Year of the Sasquatch and The Sasquatch File...



I was immediately hooked. Those books transported me to another world, dark and mysterious, with chilling wails in the night and shadows moving amongst the trees. The concept of Bigfoot in my mind became this always intangible yet promising symbol of discovery. Fear mixed with wonder at the possible outcome of crossing the threshold to that discovery. I already had a fascination with the study of human evolution and the concept of a real species of possible missing link existing in the forests I had grown up around was deeply enticing to me, and developed into a passion that would accompany me into my adulthood. I read everything I could on the subject and would passionately talk to friends and relatives about these creatures I came to believe existed out there in the untouched wilds. I also had a strong pentient for critical thinking and investigation. It was that combination that lead me through all of the alleged evidence for Bigfoot over the years and eventually here to the JREF. By that time my ardent support for the existence had already developed into a fence-sitting agnosticism and it was not long before I kissed Bigfoot the real animal goodbye and fully embraced skepticism. That skepticism did nothing to lessen my appreciation and affection for Bigfoot as a cultural icon and myth. Nor did it lessen my interest in study how that myth is perpetuated as reality by Bigfoot believers. So it is that for the last several years that posting my contemplations and examinations of Bigfoot evidence and on the groups that look for the elusive beast has been a regular feature in the General Skepticism & Paranormal section of the JREF Forums.

Any regular member of the JREF will know quite well that Bigfoot is a pretty popular topic of conversation here (though the reason why does confound some), with countless threads spanning over hundreds, if not thousands, of pages of talk and debate. Our first thread devoted to the famed Patterson-Gimlin Film, a film from the late sixties purportedly showing a female Bigfoot nonchalantly ambling across a dried up river bed, had 411 pages (hence its nickname as the 411 PGF), 16,432 posts, over half a million views and ran for over three years btween 2005 and 2008. That's a lot of Bigfoot talk. Surprisingly, sometimes it can get pretty heated. You wouldn't think an elusive bipedal ape, often described as a gentle giant, would stir up such passionate responses in people, but it does.



("Patty" the Bigfoot - Patterson-Gimlin Film)

I'm pretty proud of my accomplishments as a JREF Bigfoot skeptic, as well as those of my fellow Bigfoot skeptics here. It was JREF member William Parcher that was first to discover the origin of the costume used in the 2008 Georgia, USA Bigfoot hoax that was seen around the world on CNN and pre-empted Iraq War coverage...

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My contributions of note include a detailed examination of the oft-heard claim that Bigfoot is prevalent throughout Native American myths and traditions, as well as an examination of the expeditions for profit organized by the Bigfoot Field Researchers Organization, the head of which famously threatened to sue me over my critical writing on the group. One of my main areas of activity posting at the JREF has been discussing the Patterson-Gimlin Film and debating the finer points as to whether or not it does in fact show a living sasquatch in the wilds of Northern California. I found my self in the company of people who were avid scholars on the mystery of the PGF, such as the aforementioned William Parcher, and others such as Skeptical Greg, LTC8K6 and Correa Neto. The depth of detailed knowledge these men had on the PGF continually astounded me and humbled me. My own knowledge over the years grew but in posting about the PGF, I often ventured into the larger questions implied by the possibilities the film suggested. I would often find myself venturing into just exactly where and how we should be finding Bigfoot as a species while many of my colleagues dissected inconsistencies in the alleged timeline of the film's creation. When focusing on the PGF, I would often discuss the merits of the claims of a man by the name of Bob Heironimus, who in 2004 was tapped by Washington State writer Greg Long as being the man in the suit in his book The Making of Bigfoot: The Inside Story. Mr. Heironimus is the only man that had ever claimed to be the Bigfoot seen in the film, affectionately dubbed "Patty" by Bigfoot enthusiasts, after the name of Roger Patterson's (the man who shot the film) wife, Patricia Patterson. Patterson died of Hodgkin's lymphoma in 1972. Though little known to many supporters to the authenticity of the film, Heironimus lives only nine doors from the other man known to be present at the time of the filming, Bob Gimlin. Both men are still alive and have lived on the same street in Yakima, Washington since before the film was shot in '67. Bigfoot believers have generally dismissed Long's book as an attack piece on Patterson and Heironimus' testimony as being nothing but lies.

Now, enough about me and my background. I mentioned a mission, didn't I? Let me tell you about it.

Since about just over a year ago my frustration with the unending nature of the PGF debate built to the point where I had decided to myself that I wanted to meet with the still living principle characters at the center of the PGF story. I felt convinced that little more could be accomplished without going to the source of the controversy. In our research of the PGF we discovered much that led me to support the veracity of Bob Heironimus' claim of being Patty. We had discovered images unseen by the Bigfootery community showing Heironimus on film taken by Patterson, as well as images showing Patterson and Gimlin using Bob Heironimus' horse. In later questioning Gimlin would come to admit that he had used Heironimus' horse, but was simply breaking in the horse for the man at the time.

Most of all I felt that it was crucial for me to meet with Bob Heironimus and Bob Gimlin, if I could. The last two men alive that were there when the film was shot (allegedly in Heironimus' case). This was made difficult by the fact that I had been living the last six or seven years in Tokyo, Japan. I recently returned for an indefinite period to Vancouver Island while keeping my home in Tokyo. During this time back on the west coast I intensified my efforts to meet these men, including trying to arrange attendence to a celebration held on behalf of Bob Gimlin called the Yakima Bigfoot Round that was held May 15th-16th, 2009. I was denied access to the event, as was anyone who had posted any online comments critical or questioning of the film's authenticity. You can see images from the event here...

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While long being noted for refusing to do interviews regarding the PGF, in recent years Mr. Gimlin has begun to embrace his celebrity within the world of Bigfootery, and often appears as the guest of honour at Bigfoot conferences and get-togethers. A concerted effort has been made by Gimlin's followers to shield him from questioning by informed skeptics of his claims regarding the PGF's authenticity...



(image by mangler)

After losing that chance to see and possibly talk with Gimlin myself, I focused my efforts on making contact with Bob Heironimus. It wasn't a simple matter of just going to a phone directory and looking him up. Since the release of Greg Long's book in 2004, Bob's number has been unlisted. After doing some digging, last year I was able to find an email address for Bob's wife Glenda that I hoped was in use. I sent a message detailing who I am and my desire to meet with Bob. After receiving no reply, I became convinced that my email was not seen by Bob's wife. It looked as if I was not going to be able to get my meeting. Then in the January of this year a young man by the name of Lucas joined the JREF Forums claiming to in contact with Bob Heironimus. At the time I was away from the forum for a couple of weeks while my laptop was being repaired. Lucas' claims met with inevitable skepticism and he posted infrequently. When I returned to the forum and saw Lucas' claims, I immediately sought out contact with him. Over a protracted period of time I attempted to verify Lucas' claim and asked him to serve as a liason in getting me in touch with Bob.

It was during this time that I was able to find Bob's phone number with the help of fellow JREF Bigfoot skeptic, William Parcher. I was able to get six digits of Bob's number, which reduced the list of possible candidate numbers to ten. William reduced the list to six possibilities. I then waited for Lucas to get results in connecting me with Bob. After giving up on that possibility, I took the six numbers, tried them all and finally succeeded in reaching Bob. After talking with Bob, I learned that only very recently had his wife, Glenda, found the email I sent her last year. Many revelations resulted with me finally contacting Bob and my investigations into the PGF went into overdrive. You can follow the developements since I first contacted Mr. Heironimus by going to the thread we have devoted to his claim here...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...77#post5680677

It was at this point that an idea that I had for some time was beginning to coalesce in my mind. I had decided to take my writing at the JREF and turn it into something more productive and with more impact. I decided that I was going to write a book, tentatively titled Woods & Wildmen: An Inside Look at the Wild World of Bigfootery. Woods & Wildmen was a term I came up with a few years ago meant to reflect the adult roleplaying nature of Bigfootery, and was a play on the famous roleplaying game Dungeons & Dragons. I had envisioned my discussions with Bob Heironimus to be the basis for a chapter within Woods & Wildmen that I would call Nine Doors Apart in reference to where Heironimus and Gimlin resided. I further envisioned creating various media projects, including a possible documentary.

In the course of my investigations, the scope of them began to increase and I started contacting more figures within the Bigfoot community. While pursuing a lead on a rumoured confession of hoax to be released by Roger Patterson's widow's attorney upon the event of her passing, I came into contact with Tom Biscardi, a well known Bigfoot hunter and central figure of 2008's Georgia Bigfoot hoax. Biscardi was alleged to be the source of the rumour. While Biscardi denied any knowledge of the rumour, he did share with me very interesting testimony of why he knew for a fact that the PGF was a hoax. Not long after this, my mission in my mind took definite shape...

My Mission is to turn the PGF controversy upside-down and put to rest all doubt of the film being a hoax.

Up until recently, I had little hope that such a thing was achievable, but recent events have come to give me good reason to consider the contrary. I now think this can be done. My mission is to vindicate Bob Heironimus as a pathological liar in the eyes of Bigfoot enthusiasts, or failing that, disprove his claim. My desire is to take people with me on my journey to achieve my goal. My plan of attack is to use publicity as a weapon for taking on misinformation. I have a very specific strategy in mind that I will now detail. My plan is to pitch my quest for truth as a documentary to be produced with assistance from or by Discovery Channel Canada. This documentary could either be the wider themed Woods & Wildmen: An Inside Look at the Wild World of Bigfootery or zero in on my None Doors Apart concept. The film would follw me from various locations, including starting in Victoria where I would meet with Canadian Bigfoot researcher and wildlife biologist, John Bindernagel, author of North America's Great Ape: The Sasquatch, to discuss the evidence for Bigfoot, going to Yakima to meet Heironimus, attending various Bigfoot conferences, joining expeditions of various Bigfoot groups, and talking with various Bigfoot experts, such as Jeff Meldrum, and supporters, such as Jane Goodall. I would end with a visit to the Smithsonian to look at he bones of famed Bigfoot proponent and scientist, Grover Krantz.

In an upcoming post, I will detail exact specifics of my application to the Discovery Channel, as well as exactly how JREF members and readers can support the effort to make this project a reality. I want people to feel that they are involved in this quest and have a stake in its outcome.

Lastly, I would like to thank fellow JREF Bigfoot skeptic Drewbot for planting the seed that I am tending now. Thanks, Drew. I think this story has undeniable entertainment value and with the proper planning and conceptualization, along with plenty of support from you, the reader, stands a good chance of being accepted by Discovery.

Kaze's Quest is on!
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6

Last edited by kitakaze; 11th March 2010 at 10:56 AM. Reason: grammar & punctuation & spelling
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Old 11th March 2010, 11:22 AM   #2
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I only dip into the BF threads every now and then, but this sounds very interesting. Please keep me posted as to how I can help.
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Old 11th March 2010, 02:11 PM   #3
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A terrific project, bigfoot hunters are far more fascinating than the creature itself. Keep us updated when possible.

One small bit of advice, cut your autobiography down to only that which is related to your BF hunters hunting. DJ work, nicknames, Wuthering Heights and other non-related trivia reduce the impact of your mission.

Shaky video footage of a Bigfoot conference.
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Old 11th March 2010, 03:20 PM   #4
kitakaze
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Originally Posted by bookitty View Post
A terrific project, bigfoot hunters are far more fascinating than the creature itself. Keep us updated when possible.

One small bit of advice, cut your autobiography down to only that which is related to your BF hunters hunting. DJ work, nicknames, Wuthering Heights and other non-related trivia reduce the impact of your mission.

Shaky video footage of a Bigfoot conference.
I was thinking about that. Thanks for the good advice, bookitty. You're right. I think that first paragraph and quote can go.
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 11th March 2010, 03:29 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
I was thinking about that. Thanks for the good advice, bookitty. You're right. I think that first paragraph and quote can go.
Keep it in mind though. It may come in handy. TV is all about personality and "Canadian DJ from Tokyo who debunks Bigfoot" is a sweet pitch.
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Old 11th March 2010, 04:29 PM   #6
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I probably won't be able to do anything substantial, but you have my moral support, at least.
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Old 11th March 2010, 11:11 PM   #7
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Sounds good. I await developments with screwdriver in hand and pork and beans breath...
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 11th March 2010, 11:27 PM   #8
kitakaze
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
This documentary could either be the wider themed Woods & Wildmen: An Inside Look at the Wild World of Bigfootery or zero in on my None Doors Apart concept.
@#$% me. This is what I get for typing too early in the morning. *facepalm*

Nine. Nine Doors Apart. Edited that thing like 13 times and still missed that. Drew, you're fired as my editor.

ETA: Lost two hours of storyboard writing today. *MUST* *DESTROY* *SOMETHING*
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6

Last edited by kitakaze; 11th March 2010 at 11:29 PM.
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Old 12th March 2010, 02:47 AM   #9
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I just wanted to give a quick heads-up on how I plan to proceed with this thread and enlist help from members and general public. I am tweaking the concept of a documentary film that does not just focus on the PGF, but rather a look at the Bigfoot phenomenon as a whole. I am developing the story as being told from the perspective of someone who has had a lifelong fascination with the subject, but has abandoned belief in a physical creature and replaced with an interest in the people searching for it.

While I am fond of the conceptual title Woods & Wildmen: An Inside Look at the World of Bigfootery, I've decided it's simply too obscure a reference and unwieldy. Most importantly, it does not appeal to people that are not already very familiar with the subject. The goal is a film that doesn't require any previous knowledge of the subject matter, other than being aware of the legendary creature, Bigfoot. I've decided to trim the fat and go with a working concept title that reflects my relationship with the subject matter as well as those people featured in the film.

The working title is Walking With Bigfoot.

From here I will...

1) Post a number of drafts for concept storyboards for the documentary. The first drafts will plot out the story arc and detail locations and people visited.

These will include (rough ideas)...

Victoria (Vancouver Island), BC - Opening sequence. My introduction. Bigfootery introduction. Discussion w/ Daniel Loxton (skeptic writer) - skeptical perspective on Bigfoot.

Courtenay (Vancouver Island), BC - Discussion w/ John A. Bindernagel (wildlife biologist, Bigfoot proponent) - proponent perspective on Bigfoot.

Harrison Hot Springs, BC - Discussion w/ John Green (writer, Bigfoot proponent).

Seattle, WA - Discussion w/ Matt Crowley (amateur researcher, skeptic).

PGF controversy intro:

Mill Creek, WA - Discussion w/ Greg Long (writer, The Making of Bigfoot).

Yakima, WA - Discussion w/ Bob Heironimus (retired, alleged man in the suit).

Salt Fork State park, OH - Attending the 22nd Annual Ohio Bigfoot Conference.

Various Bigfoot expeditions.

These are just some of the ideas so far. Other people I would like to interview...

Bigfoot researchers/enthusiasts:

Prof. Jeff Meldrum

Tom Biscardi

Kathy Strain

John Cartwright

Billy Willard

Don Keating

Matthew Moneymaker

Neil Burgstahler

Skeptics:

Benjamin Radford

Blake Smith

Karren Stollznow

Prof. Todd Disotell

David Daegling

Suggestions welcome.

Of course, all this is conceptual and depends upon people agreeing to interviews. The Ohio conference is in May, which may not be do-able with in the timeframe. That being the case, a later conference would suffice.

2) Post specifics of the application process and give information about how members and readers can show support for the project. Advice will be sought from people with documentary fillm experience as well as writing experience.

3) Once the formal application to the Discovery Channel is complete, organize a formal petition showing support and interest in the project.

I still plan for the portion of the film that focuses on the PGF to be called Nine Doors Apart. Within the framework of the documentary, showing the film to be undoubtedly a hoax will likely not be realistic. However, I think in the course of the filmaking and interviewing, that information would be introduced that greatly supports that conclusion.
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 12th March 2010, 03:50 AM   #10
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Well...should you need any big hairy men with large feet, you know where to find me
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Old 12th March 2010, 04:35 AM   #11
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Simple concept image...

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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 12th March 2010, 04:35 AM   #12
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Wow, sounds like a huge project. With I would contact your local university and see if you can't find someone to help you. Especially the anthro department, maybe the psych and sociology department.

You sound like you are looking at a three volume set. It also sounds like your standard documentary style of movie. The issue is that you get to know the people and then you don't really want to portray them in a bad light. (At least as far as the hoi poloi at the BF gatherings)

Sounds amazing.
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Old 12th March 2010, 05:19 AM   #13
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1. I caught the 9 doors apart thing in my PM from Wednesday. Don't blame me!

2. If you send a written pitch to Discovery, include your Biography as an appendix. They don't care about you, you need to catch their eye in the first couple lines of your pitch. Otherwise they will just toss it. Start with something like : THIS ISN'T YOUR TYPICAL BIGFOOT DOCUMENTARY, IT WILL GO STRAIGHT TO THE TRUTH OF THE BIGFOOT MYTH. or something like that.\

3. The University idea is good, perhaps a film school, or broadcasting school would like to help you with a video pitch to Discovery.
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Old 12th March 2010, 05:30 AM   #14
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The Secret Service photo is a shop... just in case you were serious about it.
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Old 12th March 2010, 05:39 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by paiute View Post
The Secret Service photo is a shop... just in case you were serious about it.
Dude how did you find out!
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Old 12th March 2010, 06:01 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by paiute View Post
The Secret Service photo is a shop... just in case you were serious about it.
Yes, it is. A very funny one that I like. The text below it makes it quite clear.
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 12th March 2010, 06:34 AM   #17
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Just for fun, here are the two greatest Bigfoot documentaries ever made...

Manbeast! Myth or Monster

Bigfoot: Man or Beast?

Unfortunately, the second link is only the opening. The full film used to be on youtube, but it's gone now. The production quality of Manbeast is excellent.
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 12th March 2010, 07:11 AM   #18
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How about including Sweaty and his crayon drawings?

Just my .02; Doing a film about the whole bigfoot phenomenon is walking a very slippery slope. It will most likely take an extremely skilled director to keep the film from portraying the believers as nothing but loons.

I think you could easily fill up an hour just on the PGF without getting into the sociology and psychology of the believers.
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Old 12th March 2010, 08:11 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
Just my .02; Doing a film about the whole bigfoot phenomenon is walking a very slippery slope. It will most likely take an extremely skilled director to keep the film from portraying the believers as nothing but loons.
I agree. I'm not a director. I'm not a film maker. I have worked with directors and film makers as a music producer. I've taught film in Japan. I have plenty of time in front of a camera, but I don't have a single second behind one. Not in any professional way. But I am confident I could be behind a project that doesn't portray every Bigfoot researcher as a nut.

Kathy Strain is not a nut. Jeff Meldrum is certainly not a nut. John Bindernagel is not a nut, either. I have no interest in a project that would portray all Bigfooters as nuts. With each of those people I mentioned, I know why they think the way they do when it comes to Bigfoot. I could not pretend to be a director, but I could be a writer that establishes the context and the narrative.

In that sense, I am passionate about the idea of a film in which we see Meldrum, Strain, Bindernagel, etc, as well as Moneymaker, Burgstahler, MK Davis, Franzoni and others. All of them bringing what Bigfoot is to them. I believe I could write a complete look at the world of Bigfootery, without a tone of scorn or derision. In this way, I seek to pursue the concept of a film that portrays a complete look at the Bigfoot phenomenom in our North American culture. I think it could be done, and be fascinating for the initiated and uninitiated alike.

Quote:
I think you could easily fill up an hour just on the PGF without getting into the sociology and psychology of the believers.
This is my central conflict; the desire to do both. I want to focus now on what I can do regarding the PGF. It feels urgent to me, as the key figures in the story get older. I firmly believe that I could resolve the PGF with the right kind of circumstances. At the same time, I feel a desire to first create a focus on the subject through the eye of neither being a passionate believer, nor a dispassionate observer of curioso, but rather someone whose love of the myth is lifelong, and for whom the thirst for the real facts is unquenchable.

I think the central problem is that every person I have talked to so far, and for whose opinion I would use as a barometer, the PGF simply doesn't have the same sort of appeal as would a wider examination of the world of Bigfootery and the personalities that keep it alive. Given that, I hope to design a project in which all of Bigfootery could be examined, and at the same time the people at the center of the PGF reveal information that would satisfy beyond all reasonable doubt it being a hoax by a most interesting, if unscrupulous, man.
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Old 12th March 2010, 08:21 AM   #20
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Walking With Bigfoot promotional image variation (created by me)...

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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 12th March 2010, 08:36 AM   #21
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The only reason why I think the Discovery channel might turn this down is that they can make a lot more money with more "speculative" Bigfoot programs than they can with one definitive "man in a monkey suit" program.

Still, it's worth a shot. And who's to say that the final product won't end up on the documentary circuit after it's done. The Discovery channel is not the only outlet available to you. Absolutely, go for it!

Michael
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Old 12th March 2010, 08:59 AM   #22
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Kitakaze,

You might want to get in touch with the people behind this trailer. It looks like they share your sensibility, and they obviously have the video skills.
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Old 12th March 2010, 09:38 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by drapier View Post
Kitakaze,

You might want to get in touch with the people behind this trailer. It looks like they share your sensibility, and they obviously have the video skills.
Thank you, drapier. It's been too long to see you around. I think that is the some of the most invaluable input yet. It's been a while since I've seen that clip, but it is nothing short of fantastic. The production is superb. There is an undoubted closeness to what I want to do, but there are significant differences, as well.

1) The hick factor is far too heavy for what I want to achieve. Almost every average Bigfooter out there would toss it simply because it is a Biscardi/Kulls/Southern flail fest.

2) The main character is not developed enough. Also, he is little more than a spectator. It's all Biscardi and crew wowing a man who still maintains the atmosphere of absurdity. Too much Tom time.

I want my time on camera with Tom short and sweet. I want a ride in a Hummer with him where he does his Barnum & Bailey routine and then tells why he knows the PGF is fake. I want Tom giving his personal reflections of the Georgia hoax and him explaining to me how he was duped.

3) That show focuses far too little on the split in Bigfootery of American Creationist Bigfoot hunters and those who try to fit Bigfoot into the workings of evolution and scientific discovery. I want to hear Biscardi rain fire on Meldrum, Meldrum speak about Bigfoot evolutionary adaptions, and then ask Meldrum about Mormonism, his faith.
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2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 12th March 2010, 10:10 AM   #24
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I agree that the hotelfountain people have a significantly different focus than you do. I mention them because, since they probably shopped their project around, they may have some advice on whom you can contact in the TV world. Since they haven't broken into the big time themselves yet, they may be more willing to take a cold call from you than the Discovery Channel would be.

(If your project does get off the ground, I think it would be cool for you to wear some one article of clothing in each scene that is somehow a call out to a famous bigfoot researcher. So, for example, you could wear a paisley neckerchief in homage to Peter Byrne or plaster-spackled blue jeans in homage to Patterson.)

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Old 12th March 2010, 10:37 AM   #25
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You need to stop worrying about what the footers would think, the networks are not going to care. They want mass-appeal, I think portraying the Bigfooters as they really are, would be honest, and funny, you don't have to embellish it to make them look bad. But if you are consciously trying not to make them look bad, then I think that could be construed as disingenuous.


Here would be my basic episode outline

Intro: Show the Clip of the PGF
Narrator- For years this clip has been portrayed as the only video of a living creature Blah blah.

We are going to show that the clip was a hoax, one of the greatest ever perpetrated

Cut to interview with Heironymous
"That was me in the suit"
Cut to clip of you and BobH walking down the creek bed where it took place
him pointing out where they camped, etc...

Cut to footer arguments about BobH- he's not big enough etc...

Crush Arguments

Cut to 'Why footers believe this is real?'
Give several examples crushing each reason as being invalid.
i.e. footprints, the video, sighting reports

Cut to a typical Bigfoot expedition, showing the Woo nature of such gatherings, have a forester or biologist explain how a real expedition would work, show examples of succesful rare animal hunts.

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Old 12th March 2010, 10:41 AM   #26
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kitakaze wrote:
Quote:
Kathy Strain is not a nut. Jeff Meldrum is certainly not a nut. John Bindernagel is not a nut, either. I have no interest in a project that would portray all Bigfooters as nuts.

How about Joyce? Is she a nut?

I suggest that you contact her, and see if she'd be interested in being interviewed for your film. If she is....then you can spit on her sighting report/mentality right to her face, just as you have here.


Edited to add:

Drewbot wrote:
Quote:
I think portraying the Bigfooters as they really are, would be honest, and funny, you don't have to embellish it to make them look bad

Thanks for the fresh example. Drew!

This is what I'm refering to...'Randi's Heroes' spitting on other people's integrity/character.

How about putting the "critical thinker's" judgements on humanity to the test....and giving Joyce the opportunity to "make herself look bad"???
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Old 12th March 2010, 11:13 AM   #27
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Don't forget Janice Carter.
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Old 12th March 2010, 11:35 AM   #28
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And the wackos who keep trying to "prove" Patty was not a costume by overblowing low resolution blurred images with exposure problems and tracing lines over them, ignoring issues related to diferent perspectives and cameras, among many others.
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Old 12th March 2010, 04:49 PM   #29
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Perhaps you can sqeeze in something about " The Munns Report ", whose foundation was the use of a 15mm lens, which Gigantofooticus pretty much put to rest ..
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Old 12th March 2010, 06:35 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
Don't forget Janice Carter.
Last summer, out of sheer curiosity, I drove down the road where the notorious "Farm" is located. I'm pretty sure that I now know why Janice was at one time asking for monetary donations - it must have been a noble effort on her part to secure enough Tetanus shots for the reclusive clan of Hordefoots that specialize in discarded refrigerators, washing machines, clothes dryers and anything else that some unlucky farm animal might scratch itself on and then die an agonizing death by Lockjaw(unless first ambushed by Dmitri Bayanov, of course).

Kit, if you really want to show the bizarre side of Bigfootery, a trip there could be like striking Bigfooter-train-wreck gold. Even though the former "Coy" residence is now empty, there are "folks" next door that would be total titties for your documentary - the main character being Janice's Brother. Think Janice, but shirtless with a beard and mullet.
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Old 12th March 2010, 07:42 PM   #31
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ROFL! I had a preconceived notion the PGF was fake?

Somebody didn't read the OP~~~
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Old 13th March 2010, 12:09 AM   #32
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I think its a great idea to market it to discovery. I think you should perhaps approach similar companies and/or other shows that take interest in the bigfoot topic. "Dont put all your eggs in one basket."

I think if you can score Gimlin & Heironimus in the same room interviewed, that alone would be of great interest/value. The rest is sorta fluff (being real about it, not many people outside of the bigfoot world really care about Moneymaker, Meldrum, etc) I do think that interests the "footers". It might be wise to use experts or scientists outside of the bigfoot world to do a counter point to each point that the "bigfoot" scientists do. Such as Meldrum or Bindernagel making their points for the existence, have a counter point to it that is based more in reality. Sort of like point for point, in short clips. I think it would be interesting the contrast in opinions flying. ;-)

I'd also love to see you personally interviewing Moneymaker, just because. :P So many people bag on Biscardi but no matter where you stand on him, hes a great promoter.

Last edited by River; 13th March 2010 at 12:11 AM.
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Old 13th March 2010, 12:31 AM   #33
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Quote:
(being real about it, not many people outside of the bigfoot world really care about Moneymaker, Meldrum, etc)

(being real about it, not many people outside of the bigfoot world really care about Moneymaker, Meldrum, etc unless you show them out in the woods hootin and hollerin and bangin on trees looking foolish)


fixed it.
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Old 13th March 2010, 11:41 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Intro: Show the Clip of the PGF

Narrator- For years this clip has been portrayed as the only video of a living creature Blah blah.

That will be expensive considering what Patricia Patterson charges for commercial use of the PGF. Assume that she has already been informed of this particular skeptical project. She may jack up the fee or simply refuse any use. If so, you are left with the still image of F352 which is regarded as public domain (or at least is not legally pursued).


Originally Posted by kitakaze
From here I will...
I don't see Bob Gimlin on your list. We presume that he will refuse an interview. You still need to go through the motions of formally asking for one. Document the whole process and outcome. It will be important to explain that he rejected the request to talk to him (assuming that happens).

Of course the problem with not having BG's side of the story in Nine Doors Apart is that BH cannot be rebutted by BG. It's not like two guys with battling testimonies and the truth-teller automatically wins. A guy that doesn't show up can't automatically be declared the loser.

Originally Posted by SweatyYeti
How about Joyce? Is she a nut?

I suggest that you contact her, and see if she'd be interested in being interviewed for your film. If she is....then you can spit on her sighting report/mentality right to her face, just as you have here.
This should only be done if it could be done differently than you did. There were two witnesses - Joyce and her daughter. You only talked to Joyce. Her daughter's independent testimony is equally important. You skipped that. They must be interviewed apart from each other and allowed to have significantly different recollections (if that is the case). The daughter should be allowed to reject the mother's claim that they both saw a Bigfoot (if that is the case).


Originally Posted by River
I think if you can score Gimlin & Heironimus in the same room interviewed, that alone would be of great interest/value.
No way is that going to happen.
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Old 13th March 2010, 06:02 PM   #35
kitakaze
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
That will be expensive considering what Patricia Patterson charges for commercial use of the PGF. Assume that she has already been informed of this particular skeptical project. She may jack up the fee or simply refuse any use. If so, you are left with the still image of F352 which is regarded as public domain (or at least is not legally pursued).
I would expect this and be prepared to run with F352. I would draw attention to and make a point in the doc of why we were unable to use the PGF. Why is Pat Patterson jacking up the fee or refusing use of the footage for this project? Why won't she tell us where the original film is? etc, etc. Of course, we would attempt to interview Pat Patterson.

Quote:
I don't see Bob Gimlin on your list. We presume that he will refuse an interview. You still need to go through the motions of formally asking for one. Document the whole process and outcome. It will be important to explain that he rejected the request to talk to him (assuming that happens).
That was intentional. Suffice it to say that you are correct but any plans I have for when and how I will approach Bob Gimlin for an interview in which he can dispel the testimony of Bob Heironimus as well as other issues with his story I intend to keep undisclosed. I expect supporters of Gimlin to run interference and want to limit their opportunities to do so.

Quote:
Of course the problem with not having BG's side of the story in Nine Doors Apart is that BH cannot be rebutted by BG. It's not like two guys with battling testimonies and the truth-teller automatically wins. A guy that doesn't show up can't automatically be declared the loser.
What little I will say is how and why the refusal is given is important to be shown. BG saying no to a chance to easily refute the lies of someone he knows very well and put to rest a lot of doubts would be very interesting. Especially considering that Bob has no problem talking at various Bigfoot conferences.

Quote:
This should only be done if it could be done differently than you did. There were two witnesses - Joyce and her daughter. You only talked to Joyce. Her daughter's independent testimony is equally important. You skipped that. They must be interviewed apart from each other and allowed to have significantly different recollections (if that is the case). The daughter should be allowed to reject the mother's claim that they both saw a Bigfoot (if that is the case).
Writing, storyboarding and pitching a trip to Kinderhook, NY to do the investigation Sweaty was too lazy to. No thanks.

Quote:
No way is that going to happen.
I fully agree. I've already discussed the possibility with Heironimus and he has essentially said those exact same words. He gave the simple reason that Gimlin knows Heironimus is telling the truth and wouldn't get anywhere near a situation where they are both present to throw everything on the table.
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 13th March 2010, 06:28 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Perhaps you can sqeeze in something about " The Munns Report ", whose foundation was the use of a 15mm lens, which Gigantofooticus pretty much put to rest ..
Maybe, yeah. That would be a good write. And considering Giganto, Daniel Loxton and myself are all residing in the same city, and that I could at least get Bill on the phone, it would be relatively easy to set up.

The problem being is the obscurity and unknown factor of Bill and his report. Very few people outside if Bigfoot enthusiasts know about it and even less care. Going on the presumption that Nine Doors Apart is one act of Walking With Bigfoot, screen time is limited. The time it would take to introduce Bill, explain who he is and why we should care, and get into the problems with his report would be better served elsewhere. Munns' report is just too obscure. At best I think it would deserve a passing mention.

ETA: I would sooner mention the NASI Report and the $20,000 they paid to Pat Patterson to digitize the PGF and be allowed to use thirty stills, as well as $10,000 to Rene Dahinden for stills. From the 8:30 mark...

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Old 13th March 2010, 10:03 PM   #37
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Good luck Kitakaze with the documentary.

You should include some proponents of the UFO-Bigfoot connection just to make some people mad.
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Old 13th March 2010, 10:05 PM   #38
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kitakaze wrote:
Quote:
Meanwhile, I'll keep crossing my fingers for the day to come that I get to admit being wrong about Bigfoot.

Feel free to admit you're wrong about Heironimus, kitakaze.....have you seen Patty's elbow-reach, lately???!!

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
....
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Old 13th March 2010, 10:06 PM   #39
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Have you refuted it lately, kitakaze???!!



HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA...
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Old 13th March 2010, 10:51 PM   #40
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That's a lot of HA HA Sweaty

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