Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

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brantc

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brantc
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Originally Posted by Reality Check
Originally Posted by brantc View Post
Yeah. Lets do it. I was falling asleep for a minute there!! Lets have some fun!!! Maybe we should do a new thread??

So my model is pretty different(woo) for all you skeps out there but dont go calling me names, ask real questions.

An aether powered iron sun is necessary for the activity that we see on the solar surface.

Solar flares are the result of thermionic emission from a solid surface.

The iron sun does not over heat because some of the heat is carried away by the solar wind and CME's(coronal rain). The other part is IR which passes through the photosphere to the earth.

Neutrino emission is from fusion activity on the surface of the sun in the form of blinkers, nano flares and other small flare activity as well as large flares..

The corona is from an electric field.

GO!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

Nothing to do with magnetic reconnection. Start a new thread. Invite Micheal Mozina in and we will rehash all of the obvious physical facts why this is a really dumb idea.

GO!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

No. This will be my crash and burn alone...:D
 
What part of the Sun emits a nearly black body spectrum of 5777 K

brantc said:
No. This will be my crash and burn alone...:D
Click to expand...
Yes you will crash and burn with this dumb idea :D !

Some of the questions for Micheal Mozina's Iron Sun model are applicable here. So lets start with:
First asked 24 March 2010
brantc
What part of the Sun emits a nearly black body spectrum with an effective temperature of 5777 K?

As sol invictus posted in the magnetic reconnection thread:
sol invictus said:
OK, here's a real question.

Melting point of iron: 1811K
Temperature of the surface of the sun (as measured directly from the black-body spectrum it emits): 5777K

How are those consistent with the idea that the surface is solid iron?

By the way, let me head off a few possible answers.

possible answer 1: the solar temperature we measure is from a region above the solid iron surface.

response: if so, it is impossible for us to see the iron surface, because all but a very small fraction of the sunlight we see must be coming from a region with temperature 5777K since it has a nearly perfect blackbody spectrum. So what evidence do you have that the iron surface is there? You'll also have to explain how the sun gets so much colder as you go in, clarify what you mean by "surface" in that case, etc. But start with the basics - how can we see it?

possible answer 2: the solar temperature is of a region below the solid iron one.

response: solid iron is opaque. If it's glowing because it's hot, then that glow is what we're seeing, and if so the temperature must be below 1811K. But it's not, it's 5777K.

possible answer 3: there are a range of temperatures in sunlight.

response: That simply isn't true. Sunlight has a nearly perfect black body spectrum:

[URL="http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/~jma/thesis/online/figures/make_figures/blackbody.gif"]http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/~jma/thesis/online/figures/make_figures/blackbody.gif[/URL]
Click to expand...
 
Questions on the Aether Powered Sun

Well, we can start with the question raised by the Unconquered Sun:
sol invictus said:
OK, here's a real question.

Melting point of iron: 1811K
Temperature of the surface of the sun (as measured directly from the black-body spectrum it emits): 5777K

How are those consistent with the idea that the surface is solid iron?


By the way, let me head off a few possible answers.

possible answer 1: the solar temperature we measure is from a region above the solid iron surface.

response: if so, it is impossible for us to see the iron surface, because all but a very small fraction of the sunlight we see must be coming from a region with temperature 5777K since it has a nearly perfect blackbody spectrum. So what evidence do you have that the iron surface is there? You'll also have to explain how the sun gets so much colder as you go in, clarify what you mean by "surface" in that case, etc. But start with the basics - how can we see it?

possible answer 2: the solar temperature is of a region below the solid iron one.

response: solid iron is opaque. If it's glowing because it's hot, then that glow is what we're seeing, and if so the temperature must be below 1811K. But it's not, it's 5777K.

possible answer 3: there are a range of temperatures in sunlight.

response: That simply isn't true. Sunlight has a nearly perfect black body spectrum:

http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/~jma/thesis/online/figures/make_figures/blackbody.gif
Click to expand...

And add two of my own.
Nuclear fusion reactions generate both neutrinos and gamma rays. However, from the sun we see only neutrinos, but none of the gamma rays. If, as you say, "neutrino emission is from fusion activity on the surface of the sun", then the obvious question is ... Where are all the gamma rays that we should see but don't see?

The second question is much easier. Can you be a bit more explicit on one point: What does "aether powered" mean?
 
What's with the 1920's cosmology obsession.
Cecilia Payne ended the common belief in the iron core sun.:confused:
 
I think that aether sounds like a great idea, it could explain the nature of light and radio waves as waves in the aether. I also happen to know that it is so good that it was tested quite rigorously and found wrong.
 
Tim Thompson said:
And add two of my own.
Nuclear fusion reactions generate both neutrinos and gamma rays. However, from the sun we see only neutrinos, but none of the gamma rays. If, as you say, "neutrino emission is from fusion activity on the surface of the sun", then the obvious question is ... Where are all the gamma rays that we should see but don't see?
Click to expand...

The answer to that is the same basically as to why it has a nearly black body radiation. The superheated gas is opaque. Any photons emitted, gamma rays included, will promptly be absorbed and converted into heat. The only light that escapes the Sun comes from the surface and is simply the emission of a black body at that temperature. The fusion doesn't happen on the surface, hence you don't see it.

Neutrinos on the other hand, don't interact with matter much except through gravity. The ones emitted in the core will pass right through half the sun and be on their merry way.
 
Rabbit Powered Sun

Skwinty said:
WTF. The energiser bunny is there as well:D
Click to expand...

A-Ha! That's the secret! In western cultures we see a "man in the moon", but not so in east asia, where they see a "rabbit in the moon". For centuries the Chinese have been trying to tell us that they can see the Energizer Bunny in the moon.

So, all the while we have been thinking that the moon shines with reflected sunlight, but we were wrong, it's the other way around. Clearly it's the moon that shines with its own light, and the sun which "reflects" the moon. More appropriately, the sun "shines" because it is excited by electric currents that flow from the moon at just the right frequency to make the sun resonate. That's why the sun looks so much brighter than the moon, it resonates whereas the moon does not.

And we have observational proof that this must be so! See Precise Measurements of Gravity Variations During a Total Solar Eclipse. When the moon gets between Earth and the sun, there is slightly less gravity. That's because gravity is electromagnetic and since we can't see the electric current flowing from the other side of the moon towards the sun, we see less gravity too.

Ha! So much for "standard science".
 
An aether powered iron sun is necessary for the activity that we see on the solar surface.
Click to expand...

Utter nonsense. This is preposterous. If the sun were iron, nothing would work right.

One example:

Earth's orbital parameters, the sun's distance and mass are well known due to Newtonian physics. Combined with the distance and visual size of the sun we get its density, which is not at all commensurate with it being made of iron.
 
On the other hand, "Iron Sun with Aether Batteries" would be a great title for a new Yu-gi-oh! card.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Almo said:
Utter nonsense. This is preposterous. If the sun were iron, nothing would work right.

One example:

Earth's orbital parameters, the sun's distance and mass are well known due to Newtonian physics. Combined with the distance and visual size of the sun we get its density, which is not at all commensurate with it being made of iron.
Click to expand...

Unless it's hollow :eye-poppi!
 
Toke said:
I think that aether sounds like a great idea, it could explain the nature of light and radio waves as waves in the aether. I also happen to know that it is so good that it was tested quite rigorously and found wrong.
Click to expand...
Other great ideas:

There is no such thing as "Electronics". All of those liitle components contain magix smoke. Let the smoke out, and the component stops working.

Also, copper wiring transmits light, not electrons. Restrict the flow of light through a very thin wire (the filament of an incandescent lamp) and much of the light will leak out. Let all of the light out of a copper wire (or fuse) and it will stop working, as well.
 
Hellbound said:
Unless it's hollow :eye-poppi!
Click to expand...

Which is exactly what Michael Mozina (who is, as far as I can tell, the author of this particular insanity) thinks. Aside from all the other problems with this theory, there's also the fact that it would be gravitationally unstable, and would collapse inwards in short order. When this was pointed out to him, he tried using some videos of experiments with water bubbles in space to justify it, ignoring the fact that surface tension is significant and gravity is insignificant for a small water bubble in space, but the reverse would be true for a shell the size of the sun.
 
Ziggurat said:
Which is exactly what Michael Mozina (who is, as far as I can tell, the author of this particular insanity) thinks. Aside from all the other problems with this theory, there's also the fact that it would be gravitationally unstable, and would collapse inwards in short order. When this was pointed out to him, he tried using some videos of experiments with water bubbles in space to justify it, ignoring the fact that surface tension is significant and gravity is insignificant for a small water bubble in space, but the reverse would be true for a shell the size of the sun.
Click to expand...

Wow man. Just wow.
 
Ziggurat said:
Which is exactly what Michael Mozina (who is, as far as I can tell, the author of this particular insanity) thinks. Aside from all the other problems with this theory, there's also the fact that it would be gravitationally unstable, and would collapse inwards in short order. When this was pointed out to him, he tried using some videos of experiments with water bubbles in space to justify it, ignoring the fact that surface tension is significant and gravity is insignificant for a small water bubble in space, but the reverse would be true for a shell the size of the sun.
Click to expand...

Yeah, until you remember that aether acts as anti-gravity. See, it all fits!

;)
 
Fnord said:
Other great ideas:

There is no such thing as "Electronics". All of those liitle components contain magix smoke. Let the smoke out, and the component stops working.
Click to expand...
Yes, well known fact.:D
Also, copper wiring transmits light, not electrons. Restrict the flow of light through a very thin wire (the filament of an incandescent lamp) and much of the light will leak out. Let all of the light out of a copper wire (or fuse) and it will stop working, as well.
Click to expand...

I did once make a extension cord between a vga card and a led screen, at first it stopped working if there were more than 15-20 letters on the screen.
(So I used some more wires for the power supply pins)

I tried to convince my boss that the problem were how many letters could fit through a 0,25mm2 wire. :D
 
Myriad said:
On the other hand, "Iron Sun with Aether Batteries" would be a great title for a new Yu-gi-oh! card.

Respectfully,
Myriad
Click to expand...

No, "Iron Sun" is the band and "Aether Batteries" is the lead vocalist.:p
 
Reality Check said:
Yes you will crash and burn with this dumb idea :D !

Some of the questions for Micheal Mozina's Iron Sun model are applicable here. So lets start with:
First asked 24 March 2010
brantc
What part of the Sun emits a nearly black body spectrum with an effective temperature of 5777 K?

As sol invictus posted in the magnetic reconnection thread:

Originally Posted by sol invictus
OK, here's a real question.

Melting point of iron: 1811K
Temperature of the surface of the sun (as measured directly from the black-body spectrum it emits): 5777K

How are those consistent with the idea that the surface is solid iron?

By the way, let me head off a few possible answers.

possible answer 1: the solar temperature we measure is from a region above the solid iron surface.

response: if so, it is impossible for us to see the iron surface, because all but a very small fraction of the sunlight we see must be coming from a region with temperature 5777K since it has a nearly perfect blackbody spectrum. So what evidence do you have that the iron surface is there? You'll also have to explain how the sun gets so much colder as you go in, clarify what you mean by "surface" in that case, etc. But start with the basics - how can we see it?

possible answer 2: the solar temperature is of a region below the solid iron one.

response: solid iron is opaque. If it's glowing because it's hot, then that glow is what we're seeing, and if so the temperature must be below 1811K. But it's not, it's 5777K.

possible answer 3: there are a range of temperatures in sunlight.

response: That simply isn't true. Sunlight has a nearly perfect black body spectrum:

http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/~jma/t.../blackbody.gif
Click to expand...
Click to expand...


The structure of the sun from the surface to the corona is this.
The iron surface.
Photosphere.
Chromosphere.
Corona.

The photosphere is ~1500 miles above the solid surface.

The functional mechanism for energy transfer that I'm talking about is the the flow of iron.

It happens like this. The surface has areas of positive and negative electrical charge(potential). Because of the potential difference between these areas a current arises, the strength depending on the activity beneath the surface(later post) which translates to electron flow.
Initially there is the Faraday Dark current that flows all the time, as long as there is potential between the 2 areas.
As the current gets stronger there is a transition to glow mode along field lines.
This happens because the current at the loop footprints is strong enough to start to produce thermionic activity(melt iron) at the loop fotprints so we start to see an iron plasma traveling along the "field lines".
Then what are known as solar arcades begin to form. At this point iron is fully ionized FeXIV as it travels around the loops. As the loops grow the molten ionized iron is carried up the loops as "hypervelocity blobs". This we observe using light at various wavelengths. 192nm,171nm,1200nm, etc...

This is where it gets interesting.
Then something called coronal rain forms and the cooled iron falls back to the sun. You can see the piles of fallen coronal rain underneath the loops.

http://trace.lmsal.com/POD/images/arcade_9_nov_2000.gif

What does this have to do with anything???

2 things.

1. This falling coronal rain is a falling solid that is cooling back down to the temperature of solid iron, 1000C, from almost 10,000F at the top of the loops, which happens to be ...... 5,537.77778 degrees Celsius.

Solids emit blackbody radiation so thats where the blackbody spectrum comes from. The falling coronal rain provides most of the upper blackbody 1000C to 5,537C, in addition to whatever component there is from the thin plasma which I expect be lines of some sort.
I know of no experimental example of "optical depth".

However if you look carefully at a fully accurate spectrum of the sun, you would notice a UV hump at the end of UV to EUV.
This is an electric arc feature that has no explanation in the standard model of the sun.
So its not really a true black body spectrum, only statistically speaking.

2. This also acts in conjunction with the "solar wind" to cool the sun.
 
brantc said:
Then something called coronal rain forms and the cooled iron falls back to the sun.
Click to expand...

All you have done is exchange one thermodynamic impossibility for another. Why would the iron cool down enough to solidify when it's surrounded by far hotter material?

Solids emit blackbody radiation so thats where the blackbody spectrum comes from.
Click to expand...

Anything which absorbs radiation can emit a blackbody spectrum. That applies to solids, liquids, gasses, plasmas, you name it. And yes, we have plasmas right here on earth which emit blackbody spectra. They're called high intensity discharge lamps.

I know of no experimental example of "optical depth".
Click to expand...

You've never been on a body of water where you couldn't see the bottom? There are countless experimental examples of optical depth, your ignorance of them is of no consequence.
 
Reality Check said:
What part of the Sun emits a nearly black body spectrum with an effective temperature of 5777 K?
Click to expand...

From his last post, I think he's under the impression that the combination of 1000K solid iron rain and 10,000K plasma will produce blackbody radiation around 5500 K (their average temperature). Of course, it doesn't actually work that way, but that's what it seems like he's saying.
 
Tim Thompson said:
And add two of my own.
Nuclear fusion reactions generate both neutrinos and gamma rays. However, from the sun we see only neutrinos, but none of the gamma rays. If, as you say, "neutrino emission is from fusion activity on the surface of the sun", then the obvious question is ... Where are all the gamma rays that we should see but don't see?
Click to expand...

That actually ties into the question about the Aether. Its not that neutrinos are from the fusion activity, its that they are from reactions that are aether based. In other words the reaction that emits a neutrino(that unit of energy) is actually an aether reaction that emits a particle that we term a neutrino. This particle also occurs in other aether transactions that we term nuclear reactions, in which a neutrino is emitted. They dont have to be fusion events to produce neutrinos although they are both the result of the same mechanism, the pinch(reconnection).
These occur all the time on a small scale as nano flares, blinkers.
Any pinch(reconnection) with sufficient energy will emit these neutrinos without gammas.
I do not know all the reaction chains that would make this possible but I might be able to guess a few... This is all trying to fit my model into standard ideas so I will go along with it for now.

But there is fusion involved as well with temperatures up to an observed 4 billion degrees Kelvin in loops!!

The second question is much easier. Can you be a bit more explicit on one point: What does "aether powered" mean?
Click to expand...

The short of it that because of the shape and structure of the sun it resonates with the aether causing it to "condense" into electrons(near as I can figure) inside it.

Almost like a spherical antenna/transformer. Aether inward.
This manifests as the solar wind. Electrons outward causing thermionic emission and proton/heavy ion flow.

And I think this might also explain the dependence on size, of energy emission of planetary bodies as well. This would also explain why the earth is at 4 million volts negative potential all the time.

The Aether model I use is a hybrid of the observations of Karl Von Richenbach and experimental Aetherometry.
 
brantc said:
I do not know all the reaction chains that would make this possible but I might be able to guess a few... This is all trying to fit my model into standard ideas so I will go along with it for now.
Click to expand...

Translation: I'm making s*** up as I go along.
 
Ziggurat said:
All you have done is exchange one thermodynamic impossibility for another. Why would the iron cool down enough to solidify when it's surrounded by far hotter material?
Click to expand...
As it falls from the loop tops to the surface the temperature gradient is from 10000 to solid iron..

Anything which absorbs radiation can emit a blackbody spectrum. That applies to solids, liquids, gasses, plasmas, you name it. And yes, we have plasmas right here on earth which emit blackbody spectra. They're called high intensity discharge lamps.
Click to expand...

Yes thats true. But they are high pressure. Closer to a solid than a thin
plasma like the corona or photosphere.

You've never been on a body of water where you couldn't see the bottom? There are countless experimental examples of optical depth, your ignorance of them is of no consequence.
Click to expand...

Sorry. I should have said in a thin plasma. Solids emit black body as I said before. The closer you are to a solid the closer your spectrum will be to the ideal black body.
 
brantc said:
But there is fusion involved as well with temperatures up to an observed 4 billion degrees Kelvin in loops!!
Click to expand...
You need to learn some basic physics.
Fusion requires both high temperaturs and high pressures. Coronal loops have tempertures of up to a few million K (where did you get "observed 4 billion degrees Kelvin" from?) but the pressures are too low for fusion.

It is possible that magnetic pinches could cause local presasures to be high enough for fusion to happen. This has not been observed, e.g. the Sun is not a gamma ray burst source AFAIK.
 
Ziggurat said:
From his last post, I think he's under the impression that the combination of 1000K solid iron rain and 10,000K plasma will produce blackbody radiation around 5500 K (their average temperature). Of course, it doesn't actually work that way, but that's what it seems like he's saying.
Click to expand...


No. The combination of the solid iron surface IR from 3000nm to 1000nm,
the coronal rain(molten/ionized iron) cooling down makes "thermal radiation" in the 1000nm to 650-750nm range plus 192, 171, etc.
If you could watch coronal rain specifically, I think you would see a plasma line broaden into a bb curve as it fell to the solar surface.

The photosphere H alpha, visible. The loop footprints-more visible, corona etc .

10000K plasma makes lines at 192, 171. It is also at 1 million degrees or better yet 100eV.
 
brantc said:
As it falls from the loop tops to the surface the temperature gradient is from 10000 to solid iron..
Click to expand...

If the stuff is just following a temperature gradient, then you're not actually cooling the surface of the sun. The surface of the sun will therefore heat up over time. Try it yourself some time. Stick an icecube inside a turkey, and put it in the oven. The icecube won't stay solid forever, or even for very long. What refrigeration mechanism keeps your iron surface from melting? The explanations you have given are nonsense.

Yes thats true. But they are high pressure. Closer to a solid than a thin plasma like the corona or photosphere.
Click to expand...

They aren't close to a solid at all. And it doesn't matter if they're much denser than the corona or photosphere, they're also much smaller. Optical depth, brantc, optical depth.

Sorry. I should have said in a thin plasma. Solids emit black body as I said before. The closer you are to a solid the closer your spectrum will be to the ideal black body.
Click to expand...

No, brantc. It isn't about how close to a solid you are. A cubic inch of glass, for example, does NOT emit a blackbody spectrum (the reason is obvious to anyone who understands where blackbody radiation comes from), but it's quite solid. A cubic mile of most kinds of glass, however, probably would. Similarly with plasma. Optical depth, brantc, that thing you claimed didn't exist but which almost everyone actually has experience with. Yes, diffuse plasma will have longer optical depths than dense plasma, but you can get a hell of a lot thicker on the sun than you can on earth. If your material much larger than the optical depth, it will act like a blackbody, regardless of whether it's a solid. If it's much smaller than the optical depth, it won't, regardless of whether it's a solid.
 
Reality Check said:
I have to agree with Ziggurat now: "Translation: I'm making s*** up as I go along." and ignoring basic physics.
Click to expand...

This is about a sun that has an iron surface below the photosphere. This means the surface is solid. So if the "coronal rain is at an observed 10000F" and it is "falling and it cools." These are not my words.
Then by the time it gets to the hypothetical iron surface it is at least that cool, 1000C. This gives you the blackbody if the distribution of rain is even enough from the sat viewpoint. If it is cooling it is radiating.
The heat is transferred to the solar wind on its way out near as I can figure as well as the solar wind carrying heat...

"The satellite flies at an altitude of 640 km in a 40-degree-inclination orbit around the Earth. On board SORCE are four instruments that will greatly improve the accuracy of the measurements of solar energy."
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/SORCE/sorce_06.php
 
brantc said:
10000K plasma makes lines at 192, 171. It is also at 1 million degrees or better yet 100eV.
Click to expand...

10,000K plasma is at 1 million degrees? I'm reminded of a futurama bit where Professor Farnsworth says that a pound of dark matter weighs 1 million pounds.

Oh, and the problem isn't the emission lines, it's the broad spectrum. That broad spectrum is coming from a blackbody at around 5700K. Either some solid is remaining solid at 5700K, or it's not a solid. One of those possibilities is absurd, the other is rather ordinary and observable on earth.
 
brantc said:
This is about a sun that has an iron surface below the photosphere. This means the surface is solid. So if the "coronal rain is at an observed ...
Click to expand...
Then it is not about our Sun or any other star in this universe. It must be some delusional sun in your head :D

The photosphere is at a temperature of 5777 K. Any iron surface below it must be hotter. Only someone totally ignorant of physics would thnk that a iron surface at > 5777 K is solid.

This is dumber than MM's Iron Sun (he does not think that the iron surface is solid - he thinks it is a "crust").

Can you show that the solid iron surface in your idea is thermodynamically possible?
That is the solid iron surface either
  • would not have heated up to the temperature of the surrounding layers in the last ~4 billion years and vaporized or
  • the temperature of the surrounding layers are < 2000 K.
Have a look at this post to see why the second law of thermodynamics says that your (MM and brantc's) solid iron surface does not exist.
It is the second law of thermodynamics.
It is that fact that your notion has a cool layer of iron in contact with at least one hotter object - the photosphere whose temperature is measured to increase with depth from the top. If your notion has an internal energy source of any sort that outputs the amount of energy that the Sun is observed to emit then then the Sun below your iron layer is also hotter than the melting temperature of iron.
To make it obvious:
Your hypothetical, thermodynamically impossible, solid iron surface has been in thermal contact with at least one object that has consistently had a temperature large enough to vaporize iron for about 4.57 billion years.
It cannot exist.
Click to expand...
This is also true for your imaginary "Aether batteries" on the surface of the Sun. In this case the interior of the Sun must be at least the temperature of the surface, i.e. 5777 K.
 
Wow, brantc has reached another lowest point in understanding basic physics, I did not think it could go any lower after the MRx discussion.
 
brantc said:
This is about a sun that has an iron surface below the photosphere. This means the surface is solid. So if the "coronal rain is at an observed 10000F" and it is "falling and it cools." These are not my words.
Then by the time it gets to the hypothetical iron surface it is at least that cool, 1000C. This gives you the blackbody if the distribution of rain is even enough from the sat viewpoint. If it is cooling it is radiating.
The heat is transferred to the solar wind on its way out near as I can figure as well as the solar wind carrying heat...

"The satellite flies at an altitude of 640 km in a 40-degree-inclination orbit around the Earth. On board SORCE are four instruments that will greatly improve the accuracy of the measurements of solar energy."
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/SORCE/sorce_06.php
Click to expand...

You are just extracting the urine now,you cannot be serious.
 
What's up with the absorption spectrum of the sun/emission spectrum of the corona, if the sun is made of iron?
 
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