Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Kevin_Lowe

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Continued from here, with the last page of posts transferred over to the new thread.

The original thread has become quite lengthy so it is being closed and this thread opened as a continuation thread. However, the multiple warnings from the original thread still apply, and it has come perilously close to being put on moderated status. Nobody wants that, least of all the moderating team, so please - everyone - ensure that your posts remain civil, on topic, and in accordance with the terms of the Membership Agreement.
Posted By: LashL



Since Mary commented on the issue of Stilicho's characterisation of Amanda's email as well, here's an excerpt containing the relevant passage, with the parts before and after included so as to show the context.

The text is provided as I found it here- I beg your pardon in advance for Amanda's English skills.

an email by Amanda Knox said:
in the morning raffael drove me bck to the police station but had to
leave me when they said they wantrd to take me back to the house for
quesioning. before i go on, id like to ssay that i was strictly told
not to speak about this, but im speaking with you people who are not
involved and who cant do anything bad except talk to journalists,
which i hope you wont do. i have to get this off my chest because its
pressing down on me and it helps to know that someone besides me knows
something, and that im not the one who knows the most out of everyone.
at the house they asked me very personal questions about meredith's
life and also about the personalities of our neighbors. how well did i
know them? pretty well, we are friends. was meredith sexually active?
yeah, she borrowed a few of my condoms. does she like anal? wtf? i
dont know. does she use vaseline? for her lips? what kind of person is
stefano? nice guy, has a really pretty girlfriend. hmmm...very
interesting....weìd like to how you something, and tell us if this is
out of normal.
tehy took me into the nieghbors house. the had breaken the door open
to get in, but they told me to ingonore that. the rooms were all open.
giacomo and marco-n's room was spotless which made since becaus the
guys had thoroughly cleaned the whole house before they left on
vacation. stefano's room however, well, his bed was strpped of linens,
which was odd, and the comfoter he used was shoved up at the top of
his bed, with blood on it. i obviously told then that the blood was
definatley out of normal and also that he usually has his bed made.
they took note of it and ussred me out. when i left the house to go
back to the police station they told me to put my jacket over my head
and duck down below the window so the reporters wouldnt try to talk to
me. at the station i just had to repeat the answers that i had givne
at the house do they could type them up and after a good 5 and a half
hour day with the police again raffael picked me up and took me out
for some well-deserved pizza. i was starving. i then bought some
underwear because as it turns out i wont be able to leave italy for a
while as well as enter my house. i only had the clothes i was wearing
the day it bagan, so i bought some underwear and borrwed a pair of
pants from raffael.

Judge for yourself whether Stilicho is slanting the facts to paint Amanda Knox in a bad light.
 
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Link to the specific post which backs up your specific claim then.

I've done exactly that when I've needed to, so you don't get a special exemption. I don't take your unsupported word for contested claims any more than you take mine.

No, I've already provided my evidence. If you had taken the time to read this thread instead of jumping in half-cocked and full of Wiki-"facts", perhaps you would have seen where I posted my evidence multiple times.

That you are neither willing to do any actual research into the facts of this case, nor that you are willing to accept that which has been proven before, is telling, Kevin.

I might add, I have told you where to find the quotes (both here in this thread as well as Raffaele's Diary, which is where I took the quotes from). That you are unwilling to follow that up (when everyone else accepts that I've evidenced my point), shows that you are being disingenuous in regards to this discussion.
 
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I.m sorry Charlie...but for an understanding of the Narducci case, are you throwing Preston, Spezi and Frank at me?

Let's stick with actual sources shall we?

I didn't say anything about Preston or Spezi.

What are the "actual ources"?
 
You must be joking. This is where you really go off your rocker, sti. Three times you wrote that Amanda was musing about Meredith's sexual pratices and three times I contradicted you. Please, by all means, cite where I agreed with you.

I notice you don't supply the quote from the e-mail where she recounts the police asking her questions about Meredith's sexual practices. What the heck is wrong with you?

While you're looking for the place where I "agreed" with you, look for the place where (was it LondonJohn?) handed you your head on a platter for making the same false claim.

EDIT: It was HumanityBlues who went into more detail about what was wrong with your descriptions of Amanda's e-mail, on page 344.

I am actually starting to seriously believe that certain posters here are engaging in some sort of experiment (academic or otherwise) to gauge whether a barrage of straw man arguments, ad hominem attacks, misrepresentations and downright lies can "win the day" on forums such as these. I can't now think of any other explanation as to why this sort of behaviour is continuing, in the face of repeated corrections - and in the face of repeated admonishment by objective observers. And I'm quite certain that I'm not a conspiracy theorist.....
 
knife forensics

Kevin, you seem mighty sure of your "evidence"/facts given that your sole primary source appears to be Wikipedia.

The forensics do not match for a single knife. There must have been a large knife that made the fatal thrust and a second, smaller knife that made the other wounds.

BobTheDonkey,

Do you have a cite for your version of the knife forensics?

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/09/psychiatrist-and-coroner-for-amanda.html (September 25, 2009)
“When Walter Patumi --one of the most experienced coroners in Italy-- says something, we'd better listen to him. Today he showed some pictures from another homicide he studied (it seemed to me, I recognized the recent murder of Valfabbrica, which trial was also presided over by Massei). Cuts of 5, 10, 20 centimeters, all made with a little painter's tool, not even a knife, which blade was as wide as 4 centimeters. The concept is simple, with a little blade you can make a long cut. And everything in the murder of Meredith suggests that a little blade was used. Even the larger wound, since two waves are detectable on the margins of the cut, as if the offender stroked three times there.

Another simple concept was that when you want to kill, you strike a blow as strong as you can. You are not going to use just half of your blade, as the theory wants for the murder of Meredith. There's absolutely no possibility that knife can be the murder weapon --Patumi explained-- it would have severed her neck completely.”

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/09/neutral-expert-dismisses-murder-weapon.html (September 19, 2009)
“Professor Cingolani has been stressed by basically everyone about the relation between wounds and knife. He has been treating, even with surprising positions, all minor wounds. Until Amanda Knox's lawyer Carlo Dalla Vedova brought him to say something very clear about the main one: any single-edge knife is compatible with Meredith's larger wound.

He could have revealed it before, and maybe we wouldn't be at this stage. What to say? Nothing really new for us, but at this point believing theMarietti knife --found at its place in Raffaele's kitchen-- as the murder weapon starts to be a matter of faith. Or of obstinacy.”

Frank Sfarzo describes Mario Cingolani as a neutral witness.

halides1
 
I'd appreciate a link. I've done a certain amount of reading and not come across support for those claims, and I've certainly had my patience tested already by Fulcanelli and Bob making emphatic claims about evidence here and there which they cannot actually find when pressed.

Kevin I know it is very daunting to read this whole thread and I don't blame you for not attempting that. But what you have to understand is that there is an enormous amount of material and it really is time consuming to wade through it all again looking for stuff which has been cited and discussed in some depth before. You do cite what you have: but you appear to have much less.

For this question of the number of knives it would help me if you told me what you have read that has led to such certainty. It is unfortunate that I do not have a good translation of the Micheli report because the one posted well upthread at #1262 is very poor and it is confusing. For a starting place it is perhaps helpful

On this point, about the significance of forensic data, you must record the initial position of Dr. LALLI, CT del Pubblico Ministero, Lalla, CT of the Public Ministry, under which there would be no findings in support of either hypothesis. The report of the Scientific Police (UACV) filed during the preliminary hearing focuses instead on the presence of typical defense wounds in the region on the thumb and palm of the right hand of the victim, apparently came into contact with the blade of the knife that fact, to reconnect with bruises from withholding, does suggest "action of violent coercion by multiple attackers, even to prevent the woman to oppose the blade of the weapon."
The technical memorandum filed by defense consultants K. argues instead that the state places and reveal the body injury "fully compatible with the action perpetrated by one person" as the face and neck can be produced by an agent who grab the victim with bare hands to strangle, suffocate or tacitly, and then (or simultaneously) the wound with a knife ", while those in other locations (right elbow and forearm on both sides of the pelvis, left thigh and right leg) are also reported to peacefully violent contact ( designed to hold, immobilize) between victim and aggressor, assuming that the latter dominates while he was lying on the ground, and could thus cause her bruises with body parts (knees, legs), other than hands. According to these consultants, "totally missing, however, traces of grasping or constriction of the wrists or ankles, potentially indicative of action made by immobilizing and containing more than one subject."
Especially in the face of so variously placed lesions, even to both sides, and with one hand and likely to wield a knife, however, appears rather bold claim that the attacker has essentially "gone over" to the girl, and traces of grasping on a pulse, albeit based on data derived from different aspect, it seems that there are.

snip


as to the problem of length by prof. CINGOLANI Cingolani noted at the hearing: "The only problem was that the knife blade is 17.5 cm long, is here along with the 8 and stops, we do not know why other hand, there is a zone of resistance in the which has stopped, but it can be stopped by the action of the agent or any other reason or because the weapon has been retracted "the second injury because it corresponds to 2 cm. from the tip of the knife is 1.5 cm wide. exactly what the width of the wound (just 2 cm deep.), the third apparently leads to different results because through is 4 cm., and the knife at that distance from the tip has a width of 3, but the injury is more than 1.5 cm. But - always say the Surveyor - "makes the path through which the blade is inside the body and we will evaluate in a static situation, whereas when there is penetration of the weapon was in a dynamic situation (..), there may have been a compression of the skin to the depth, there may have been a twist of the neck in a certain way, it is not possible indicate this fact that at first glance would seem as incompatible as absolutely incompatible. "Professor. UMANI RONCHI states correctly (by the excoriation of the lesions compared to superficial wounds more): "a knife that maybe .. . he had a back more often and had irregularities such as to these formations, here, might be more appropriate to the situation. "
. Exposed to such data, prof. TORRE stated that it supports the possibility of compression of the skin, the wound more, then observed that "the bottom of the wound (..) is a kind of mangled tissue as deep as a processing blade back and forth persistent and prolonged action always within the same lesion "on the possibility that moved the neck of the victim, added:" Yes, but it must be moved many times to do an injury so mangled, with the clarification instead by Prof. April that "just two movements."
Thus, the inferred "mangled", prof. UMANI RONCHI added: "This ray (..) small areas of erythematous excoriated I. .. I believe, has confirmed my belief that could be due to the fact that the knife introduced in this way, with the coast say adhering to the skin for wrist movements of the aggressor or the victim's reactions, can be explained without going to think about a different weapon. "
This is the state of the art: and logic, once again, requires a note: that certainly the blade of the knife assailant lingered in the neck of the victim, given the width of the lesion - very unusual, even in the eyes of those who has seen several - he had to procure, that certainly the neck of poor M.
move, since it could not defend himself with his hands, at least not with both.
Insignificant, all wanting to give, is the contribution of forensic consultants Defence S. about the mark of a knife on the mattress, those experts who want a double impression, almost parallel: apart from the finding that the knife blade of the phantom would be about 13-14 cm., also well above the means, the 'hypothesis that was supported twice in nearly parallel position is simply unrealistic (more reasonable would be confronted with a knife placed therein and then crawled or stumbled up to take a different position), as well as difficult to explain by the action of and it supported a "bounce" for having someone sitting immediately above the mattress.

But I assume you have read what Torre has to say? There is a discussion of that testimony starting around post # 2699. Or maybe you read Bacci? Or Aprile? Or Lalli?You can search at PMF for any of those names and you will get further discussion and some translations of reports of their testimony in amongst other things (PMF is a very different kind of board though the quality of the information is arguably higher than we have here on this issue at least) It has to be noted that this part of the evidence was given in camera and so we have no transcripts or even direct reports from those journalists who attended the trial: some spoke to the lawyers who were there but that is not exactly satisfying because it like elections before the result: everybody is winning hearts and minds


Speaking of which: Fulcanelli also claimed that Knox's DNA was on the bra clasp, however he couldn't back it up when challenged. Can you find a
citation for that claim?

Why don't you do it, Kevin? It was said by Vinci, for one.

As for the DNA evidence against Amanda and Raffaele, according to New Scientist at least nine US DNA experts have gone on the record as saying that evidence is flawed. In particular while the Rome lab claims that they got a positive result for DNA, the more sensitive test for blood came back negative. So the claim that the DNA on the knife got there when it was used to stab Meredith is, in my view, nigh certain to be false. If the DNA was there at all it got there by other means, and contamination in the lab is the most obvious source.

We have discussed this bunch and their open letter to death on this thread Kevin. It came up very early and because Halides1 puts great store in it it has been revisited loads of times. A search for Johnson (one of those who signed it) brings up 8 pages: go have a read if you can be bothered. But you can hardly expect those of us who have reached a conclusion about this to go there again unless you have specific points to raise, can you? The worth of this is one of the most basic disagreements in this thread.

Similarly the fact that the bra clasp was mishandled is not even seriously contested, and as the NS article says there are multiple innocent ways that the trace amount of DNA found could have gotten there.

You don't get it yet, do you? NOTHING in this case is not contested, and this is no exception. But you make an interesting point yet to be answered. You say there are multiple innocent ways that dna could have gotten there: it is not a trace amount Kevin: so maybe you can do what none of those who have done this dance before have been able to do: tell us even one of those innocent ways.

I lost this post the first time I wrote it so I am going to post now and I will come back to the other bit when I have time. Hope that is ok
 
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No, I've already provided my evidence. If you had taken the time to read this thread instead of jumping in half-cocked and full of Wiki-"facts", perhaps you would have seen where I posted my evidence multiple times.

That you are neither willing to do any actual research into the facts of this case, nor that you are willing to accept that which has been proven before, is telling, Kevin.

I might add, I have told you where to find the quotes (both here in this thread as well as Raffaele's Diary, which is where I took the quotes from). That you are unwilling to follow that up (when everyone else accepts that I've evidenced my point), shows that you are being disingenuous in regards to this discussion.

This is nothing but bluster.

I have provided specific citations for my points, sometimes more than once for people who missed them the first time. (This could in fact be taken as proof that I do research, unless you think I just mashed my face on the keyboard and by pure luck typed out the URL's of relevant web sites).

If you want to be taken seriously, provide specific citations, going to actual posts or actual places in actual links. Otherwise you are posting nothing but hot air. You don't get to carry on about other people's unwillingness to do research when you obviously aren't willing to lift a finger to support your own claims - if indeed the problem is just the lack of will.

I persist in suspecting that the real problem is not lack of will, but lack of good evidence. As I think I said before, so far Wikipedia is well ahead of the Amanda-is-guilty crowd from PMF in terms of demonstrated reliability on matters of fact.
 
bra clasp dna

I haven't found the original yet though :

extract from Cesare Beccaria's piece very interesting:

"On 24 October 2008 Francesco Vinci, the forensic consultant for the Sollecito defense, hands over to the Court his analysis report for the DNA on Meredith’s bra hook (Evidence 165B).

He states that “the analysis clearly shows that there are profiles of three other individuals on the clasp”, adding that the genetic profiles of Amanda and Rudy are also on the clasp.


"But even with his powerful family and expert counsel, there are problems within Sollecito’s defense team. Vincenzo Pascali, the chief forensic consultant who was set to give expert testimony about the possible contamination of the bra clasp, walked off the case last month, reportedly leaving a €50,000 bill. Back in September, Pascali, who declined to comment for this story, hinted that the clasp also contained Knox’s DNA." (Barbie Nadeau, The Daily Beast).
 
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Kevin I know it is very daunting to read this whole thread and I don't blame you for not attempting that. But what you have to understand is that there is an enormous amount of material and it really is time consuming to wade through it all again looking for stuff which has been cited and discussed in some depth before. You do cite what you have: but you appear to have much less.

For this question of the number of knives it would help me if you told me what you have read that has led to such certainty. It is unfortunate that I do not have a good translation of the Micheli report because the one posted well upthread at #1262 is very poor and it is confusing. For a starting place it is perhaps helpful

But I assume you have read what Torre has to say? There is a discussion of that testimony starting around post # 2699.

I just jumped back there and read that exchange. It's a pretty sorry sight.

No evidence on either side, no relevant citations, and the links that were provided went to exactly the kind of mainstream reports I've been citing since the start of my involvement here.

I am not impressed with the standard of evidence there, and I am not impressed with you pretending that I can't have an informed opinion because I didn't participate in that exchange.

You have discussed this matter already, but you have not settled it or even made any progress on it that I can see from the area of the thread you cited.

Credit where it's due though: You did at least manage to cite a relevant part of the thread on this issue, even if the discussion there didn't do what you implied it did.

Or maybe you read Bacci? Or Aprile? Or Lalli?You can search at PMF for any of those names and you will get further discussion and some translations of reports of their testimony in amongst other things (PMF is a very different kind of board though the quality of the information is arguably higher than we have here on this issue at least) It has to be noted that this part of the evidence was given in camera and so we have no transcripts or even direct reports from those journalists who attended the trial: some spoke to the lawyers who were there but that is not exactly satisfying because it like elections before the result: everybody is winning hearts and minds

Do you have any relevant evidence? As far as I can tell the prosecution experts admit that the wounds could have been caused by one knife but say two is more likely, the defence experts go the other way, and the tie breaker is the quality of DNA evidence on the alleged second knife (which independent scientists says is of poor quality).

Why don't you do it, Kevin? It was said by Vinci, for one.

Your claim, your evidence. I am not your research assistant. Cite where Vinci said it, and while you're at it explain why no source I can find supports your claim than Amanda's DNA was on Meredith's bra clasp if that is really the case.

I suspect it's not, and I suspect that you and Fulcanelli are both reciting PMF talking points which are factually incorrect and which you cannot support. I will gladly retract that accusation as soon as you give us a citation which goes to evidence for your claim.

We have discussed this bunch and their open letter to death on this thread Kevin. It came up very early and because Halides1 puts great store in it it has been revisited loads of times. A search for Johnson (one of those who signed it) brings up 8 pages: go have a read if you can be bothered. But you can hardly expect those of us who have reached a conclusion about this to go there again unless you have specific points to raise, can you? The worth of this is one of the most basic disagreements in this thread.

By the same token, you can hardly expect me to care about your opinion unless you can support it.

You don't get it yet, do you? NOTHING in this case is not contested, and this is no exception. But you make an interesting point yet to be answered. You say there are multiple innocent ways that dna could have gotten there: it is not a trace amount Kevin: so maybe you can do what none of those who have done this dance before have been able to do: tell us even one of those innocent ways.

Take it up with the DNA experts who wrote that letter. Their opinion means more to me than your incredulity, since they work in the field and can be assumed to have first-hand experience of how DNA testing can go wrong.
 
Ok I have gone back to the post in which you cited what you have

But there was another Rudy, the small-time drug dealer and drifter with a record of petty crime who according to some witnesses harassed women and stole from their handbags. Shortly before Kercher’s murder he was detained in Milan for an alleged theft. He had broken into a school to hide from police and had a knife in his hand.

Guede has no criminal record. There is one witness who said he harassed women and I have discussed this above: I have not heard even him say Guede stole from women's handbags, but of course he may have. I have also discussed the school incident: it is not true that he went there to hide from the police: it is not true that he had a knife in his hand (as your next quote agrees): and it is true that he made no threat at all to the woman who found him there. This is all already in this thread Kevin

On September 27, 2007 - five weeks before the killing - Perugia bar tender Cristian Tramantano heard a noise downstairs in his home and found Guede wandering around with a large knife. Tramantano recognised Guede from his work in a nightclub.
There was a confrontation between the two, which ended when Guede ran away. On four occasions, Tramantano went to Perugia's central police station to report the break-in, identify Guede as the culprit and to detail how the intruder was armed and threatened him.
On each occasion, he says he was ignored and the police refused to log his complaint.
The following weekend, there was a break-in at an English-speaking nursery school in Milan in which 2,000 euros and a digital camera were stolen. The school owner, Maria Antoinette Salvadori del Prato, reported it to her local police station.
Three weeks later, on Saturday, October 27 - one week before the murder - Mrs Prato arrived at the school early in the morning with a locksmith to replace the front door, only to be confronted by Guede standing in the main entrance.
Police were called and Guede questioned. A stolen laptop, digital camera and ten-inch kitchen knife were found in his backpack.
But instead of being arrested and charged, Guede was merely escorted to Milan central railway station and placed on a train back to Perugia.
In the interim, on the weekend of October 13, there had been a break-in at the office of lawyers Paolo Brocchi and Luigi Palazzoli, in which a firstfloor window was smashed - similar to the break-in at Meredith's house. A computer and other items were stolen.
They were later found in Guede's possession, but he was not arrested or charged.
This series of crimes and the absence of police action has led Knox's defence team to believe Guede may have been an informant being protected by someone in the police force.

Tramonatano has also been extensively discussed and as I said, his evidence was not accepted as credible in any way. There is no evidence whatsoever that Guede is a police informer: I think that idea came from Mark Waterbury but it is mere assertion and we await his account of what supports it. Those who have repeated it here have been asked for the evidence and we are told there is much to come: but it is not here yet

Guede was already well known to police by the time he killed Miss Kercher. As well as being a drug dealer with a criminal record for minor drugs offences, he had been held in Milan in the weeks before the murder for an alleged theft. On that occasion, he broke into a school to hide from police and, significantly, had a knife in his hand when he was eventually arrested.

"Well known to the police" is a slippery sort of phrase: it usually implies a person who has a criminal record for petty crime and that impression is reinforced in this quote by the false claim that Guede had a criminal record: he didn't. It is said he broke in to the school to hide from the police and there is no evidence of that either: he did not have a knife in his hand, and again some of your own quotes show that this is false. How does it come about that he was "held" in Milan while at the same time he was never arrested or charged because he was a police informant?

A defense witness testified that just two weeks before British exchange student Meredith Kercher was murdered , his law studio was broken into and a computer and cell phone were stolen. The stolen objects were later found in the possession of Rudy Guede, who has already been convicted for his role in Kercher's murder.

Paolo Brocchi, a lawyer whose office is not far from where Kercher was killed, told the court that the thief had entered his office through a window that had been broken with a large rock.

Yes this has been said and Guede has admitted to being in possession of stolen property which he returned. Nobody is suggesting that Guede is a particularly admirable character: but how is this evidence of murder even if it is as described? This one is the only allegation which appearst to have some substance and even then there is no evidence that Guede broke in himself: he says he did not. You can come over all Mandy Rice Davies about that if you like - I might do so too. But it is not evidence of violence and it is not evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that he broke in himself. Nor do I know if Guede was charged with an offence, either burglar or something akin to receiving stolen goods. I do know that in this country it is unlikely that someone charged with a first offence of this sort would be held in custody, however.

Kevin_Lowe=If you're going to play word games and say "But he never got convicted said:
OK. I can't see me crying myself to sleep: that you dismiss the fact that he has no record despite the false assertion you choose to cite, is hardly my concern. Do you have any evidence that Guede has a record?
 
I just jumped back there and read that exchange. It's a pretty sorry sight.

No evidence on either side, no relevant citations, and the links that were provided went to exactly the kind of mainstream reports I've been citing since the start of my involvement here.

I am not impressed with the standard of evidence there, and I am not impressed with you pretending that I can't have an informed opinion because I didn't participate in that exchange.

Oooh nice try, Kevin. But sadly you don't get a coconut. As I said, for this part of the trial it was held in private and I have acknowledged that we do not have good sources. But we have had the discussion within those constraints. As you said: you consider those news sources to be acceptable when you use them: for me the fact that Torre had not examined the body but was yet prepared to testify is quiite significant. But not for you, obviously. What he said is also significant in my eyes: but again not to you. Welcome to the Cartwheels thread: so it goes.

You have discussed this matter already, but you have not settled it or even made any progress on it that I can see from the area of the thread you cited.

Credit where it's due though: You did at least manage to cite a relevant part of the thread on this issue, even if the discussion there didn't do what you implied it did.

Yes: that is the way it goes. It did precisely what I implied it did: it showed that we have been aware of everything you bring up and we have discussed and we reach no resolution. We do not have enough information (I suspect there is not enough information in the world to resolve any of these things). This case is not going to be settled in the way you would wish: it will be settled in a court where incomplete and contradictory testimony will be placed before those who are charged with evaluating it and coming to a conclusion: and they will do it on more information than we have but they will do it in exactly the same way that we do: they will assess what they hear and they will come to a conclusion: that is what courts are for

Do you have any relevant evidence? As far as I can tell the prosecution experts admit that the wounds could have been caused by one knife but say two is more likely, the defence experts go the other way, and the tie breaker is the quality of DNA evidence on the alleged second knife (which independent scientists says is of poor quality).

Yes. That is what happens in courts: this part of your post is almost exactly the same as a part of my original which I lost and forgot to put back in: only I didn't say the tie breaker was the DNA: it was that together with all the usual things people consider when they sit on a decision making tribunal of whatever stripe: and so it will be at the appeal. The independent scientists (if you are referring to the open letter brigade) bear as much relation to that description as the Holy Roman Empire did to its own name. IMO at least

Your claim, your evidence. I am not your research assistant. Cite where Vinci said it, and while you're at it explain why no source I can find supports your claim than Amanda's DNA was on Meredith's bra clasp if that is really the case.

Not my claim at all, as my post made clear. And I am not your servant, sunshine. Do your own research if the matter interests you. It doesn't interest me. Sollecito's dna is on the clasp: I do not know if Knox's is: but it was a defence witness that said it was if that means anything

I suspect it's not, and I suspect that you and Fulcanelli are both reciting PMF talking points which are factually incorrect and which you cannot support. I will gladly retract that accusation as soon as you give us a citation which goes to evidence for your claim.

Not my problem that you see it that way ;) Your ....generosity ...is noted though :)

By the same token, you can hardly expect me to care about your opinion unless you can support it.

Certainly not: so we are even then? Oh, no, we're not. Because I am prepared to do some work and you are prepared to demand that others do it. But no matter.


Take it up with the DNA experts who wrote that letter. Their opinion means more to me than your incredulity, since they work in the field and can be assumed to have first-hand experience of how DNA testing can go wrong.

Nah, I don't think I will bother. I am a bit surprised though: you are usually so against fallacies like appeal to authority: and that is all this is.

I think we will leave this where it is Kevin_Lowe. I have tried to be reasonable with you: but that is not working so I will stop before I get bored
 
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Guede has no criminal record.

We've all heard the PMF talking point. The fact that Guede has no criminal record has been repeatedly acknowledged, so much so that I'm comfortable labelling any pretence that this is news an attempt at a straw man argument.

However there are multiple credible, mainstream reports of criminal behaviour by Guede some of which even the PMFers don't try to deny.

There is one witness who said he harassed women and I have discussed this above: I have not heard even him say Guede stole from women's handbags, but of course he may have.

Do you have any reason to believe this claim to be false? I am not saying this claim is known for certain to be true, but the claims has been made and I give at least some weight to that.

I have also discussed the school incident: it is not true that he went there to hide from the police: it is not true that he had a knife in his hand (as your next quote agrees): and it is true that he made no threat at all to the woman who found him there. This is all already in this thread Kevin

Two things.

Firstly, are you playing a game with the clause "in his hand"? Are you agreeing that Guede had a weapon, and just disagreeing with the claim that he had said weapon in his hand?

Secondly, what is your source for the claim that he did not have a knife in his hand? Don't bother saying "It's in the thread somewhere!", you just burned your credibility on such appeals as far as I'm concerned by trying to imply that relevant information about Meredith's wounds was somewhere in the thread.

Tramonatano has also been extensively discussed and as I said, his evidence was not accepted as credible in any way. There is no evidence whatsoever that Guede is a police informer: I think that idea came from Mark Waterbury but it is mere assertion and we await his account of what supports it. Those who have repeated it here have been asked for the evidence and we are told there is much to come: but it is not here yet

Fair enough, we can wait for it.

"Well known to the police" is a slippery sort of phrase: it usually implies a person who has a criminal record for petty crime and that impression is reinforced in this quote by the false claim that Guede had a criminal record: he didn't. It is said he broke in to the school to hide from the police and there is no evidence of that either: he did not have a knife in his hand, and again some of your own quotes show that this is false. How does it come about that he was "held" in Milan while at the same time he was never arrested or charged because he was a police informant?

What makes you think that the fact he was held in Milan tells us anything about whether he was a police informant elsewhere? Please note that I am not asserting that the claim he was an informant is well-supported, or even relevant. I'm just curious about your thought process.

Yes this has been said and Guede has admitted to being in possession of stolen property which he returned. Nobody is suggesting that Guede is a particularly admirable character: but how is this evidence of murder even if it is as described?

It is not, as you know.

It is evidence of illegal behaviour. It is evidence he is the sort of person who might break into a building to steal. It is evidence he is the sort of person who might carry a weapon while doing to. It is evidence he might break in to a building by throwing a rock through a window.

OK. I can't see me crying myself to sleep: that you dismiss the fact that he has no record despite the false assertion you choose to cite, is hardly my concern. Do you have any evidence that Guede has a record?

We are already very weary of that straw man, because we have seen it so often from other posters. Please don't bother us with it again.
 
Do you have any relevant evidence? As far as I can tell the prosecution experts admit that the wounds could have been caused by one knife but say two is more likely, the defence experts go the other way, and the tie breaker is the quality of DNA evidence on the alleged second knife (which independent scientists says is of poor quality).

What data did these independent scientists have access to, which data didn't they have access to? If they only had access to incomplete data, and nothing suggests they had access to all the data, how certain are their findings?
 
data withheld

What data did these independent scientists have access to, which data didn't they have access to? If they only had access to incomplete data, and nothing suggests they had access to all the data, how certain are their findings?

Amazer,

Elizabeth Johnson and Greg Hampikian were consultants for the defense team (I posted a link on Dr. Hampikian a couple of weeks ago). They and Dan Krane, another signer of the open letter, asked the defense lawyers to ask the prosecution to release the electronic data files, according to Jason Gilder, also a signer of the letter. These files are the basis for creating the DNA electropherograms, such as the one reproduced in the open letter, but the prosecution refused to release them. Some of the problems the letter noted with DNA evidence, the weak intensity of the knife electropherogram for example, are obvious from paper copies. But other things cannot be addressed without each expert starting with the raw data. Once the electropherograms get locked into paper form, it represents someone’s interpretation, not the data sets themselves. The analysis of DNA mixtures is an area in which one would expect experts to disagree.

I have heard arguments to the effect that we should believe the prosecution’s expert witnesses over the defense’s witnesses because they had access to all of the data. This argument never cut any ice with me with respect to DNA. The prosecution could easily rectify this situation by releasing this information, and this would level the playing field.

halides1
 
We've all heard the PMF talking point. The fact that Guede has no criminal record has been repeatedly acknowledged, so much so that I'm comfortable labelling any pretence that this is news an attempt at a straw man argument.

However there are multiple credible, mainstream reports of criminal behaviour by Guede some of which even the PMFers don't try to deny.



Do you have any reason to believe this claim to be false? I am not saying this claim is known for certain to be true, but the claims has been made and I give at least some weight to that.



Two things.

Firstly, are you playing a game with the clause "in his hand"? Are you agreeing that Guede had a weapon, and just disagreeing with the claim that he had said weapon in his hand?

Secondly, what is your source for the claim that he did not have a knife in his hand? Don't bother saying "It's in the thread somewhere!", you just burned your credibility on such appeals as far as I'm concerned by trying to imply that relevant information about Meredith's wounds was somewhere in the thread.



Fair enough, we can wait for it.



What makes you think that the fact he was held in Milan tells us anything about whether he was a police informant elsewhere? Please note that I am not asserting that the claim he was an informant is well-supported, or even relevant. I'm just curious about your thought process.



It is not, as you know.

It is evidence of illegal behaviour. It is evidence he is the sort of person who might break into a building to steal. It is evidence he is the sort of person who might carry a weapon while doing to. It is evidence he might break in to a building by throwing a rock through a window.



We are already very weary of that straw man, because we have seen it so often from other posters. Please don't bother us with it again.

There are a few things that are bothering me about the Rudy as police informant and six crimes reports. I had asked before if Rudy was considered a suspect in any of these cases or if any of these cases were still being investigated. The only answer I got to this one was from Fulcanelli which was no and no. Of course he does not admit he even knows what the "six" alleged crimes were so how would he know? So have these cases been solved and the blame put on someone else? Or the police just telling the victims of these six crimes so sorry we are not investigating?

If I were one of the victims and that crime was not being investigated or already solved, I would be raising an unholy stink. Has anyone seen any reports of this? I have not and I have searched the Italian news articles as well. I would think that this secondary evidence would be present if the reports were correct. Am I missing something here?
 
Amazer,

Elizabeth Johnson and Greg Hampikian were consultants for the defense team (I posted a link on Dr. Hampikian a couple of weeks ago). They and Dan Krane, another signer of the open letter, asked the defense lawyers to ask the prosecution to release the electronic data files, according to Jason Gilder, also a signer of the letter. These files are the basis for creating the DNA electropherograms, such as the one reproduced in the open letter, but the prosecution refused to release them. Some of the problems the letter noted with DNA evidence, the weak intensity of the knife electropherogram for example, are obvious from paper copies. But other things cannot be addressed without each expert starting with the raw data. Once the electropherograms get locked into paper form, it represents someone’s interpretation, not the data sets themselves. The analysis of DNA mixtures is an area in which one would expect experts to disagree.

I have heard arguments to the effect that we should believe the prosecution’s expert witnesses over the defense’s witnesses because they had access to all of the data. This argument never cut any ice with me with respect to DNA. The prosecution could easily rectify this situation by releasing this information, and this would level the playing field.

halides1

I in principle agree that there's no good reason why the defense shouldn't have identical access to the raw data like the prosecution has. They should have access to that data.

On what grounds was the release of the raw data denied? Was it due to some particular Italian laws or was there another reason given?
 
We've all heard the PMF talking point. The fact that Guede has no criminal record has been repeatedly acknowledged, so much so that I'm comfortable labelling any pretence that this is news an attempt at a straw man argument.

However there are multiple credible, mainstream reports of criminal behaviour by Guede some of which even the PMFers don't try to deny.



Do you have any reason to believe this claim to be false? I am not saying this claim is known for certain to be true, but the claims has been made and I give at least some weight to that.



Two things.

Firstly, are you playing a game with the clause "in his hand"? Are you agreeing that Guede had a weapon, and just disagreeing with the claim that he had said weapon in his hand?

Secondly, what is your source for the claim that he did not have a knife in his hand? Don't bother saying "It's in the thread somewhere!", you just burned your credibility on such appeals as far as I'm concerned by trying to imply that relevant information about Meredith's wounds was somewhere in the thread.



Fair enough, we can wait for it.



What makes you think that the fact he was held in Milan tells us anything about whether he was a police informant elsewhere? Please note that I am not asserting that the claim he was an informant is well-supported, or even relevant. I'm just curious about your thought process.



It is not, as you know.

It is evidence of illegal behaviour. It is evidence he is the sort of person who might break into a building to steal. It is evidence he is the sort of person who might carry a weapon while doing to. It is evidence he might break in to a building by throwing a rock through a window.



We are already very weary of that straw man, because we have seen it so often from other posters. Please don't bother us with it again.

Read the thread, Kevin.

Rudy had the knife in his bag, not in his hand. When he broke into the nursery, he did not break any windows (the woman who found him testified that there was no damage to the building), and the knife was one he found inside the nursery. Is that clear enough? Or do you need further clarification?

Rudy could not have had the knife when he broke into the nursery because it was the nurseries knife - that means he didn't get the knife till after he was inside.

Armed burglary, not so much.


As it goes, can you provide evidence of Rudy Guede's rap sheet? Because, so far, the defense has yet to provide it. To further explain why the onus is on you, Guede's sentence was mitigated by 4 years specifically because he has no prior criminal record.


Edited by LashL: 
Edited for civility
 
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Italy...(gathered from various news reports and translated via gobble)

Police remain baffled by a series of 6 crimes in and around Perugia in the month preceding the infamous murder of Meredith Kercher. A source within the police department that wishes to remain anonymous indicated to this reporter that although there is bafflement they are completely satisfied with the non results of the non investigation.

Witnesses describe a man of African descent resembling the convicted killer, Rudy Guede, as the person responsible for this unsolved crime spree. Other witnesses have described him as that guy Rudy or that Guede character. Interestingly, in a non related incident, police sources report that Rudy Guede was subjected to severe questioning for over 14 hours and constantly asked if he needed a pillow for his upcoming train trip about the time these crimes were taking place but nobody has been taken in for questioning about these crimes.

The victims of these crimes, some of whom have lost some of their most prized possessions appear to be well satisfied with the non investigation. One was quoted as saying, "according to me, Rudy can explain".
 
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Italy...(gathered from varios news reports and translated via gobble)

Police remain baffled by a series of 6 crimes in and around Perugia in the month preceding the infamous murder of Meredith Kercher. A source within the police department that wishes to remain anonymous indicated to this reporter that although there is bafflement they are completely satisfied with the non results of the non investigation.

Witnesses describe a man of African descent resembling the convicted killer, Rudy Guede, as the person responsible for this unsolved crime spree. Other witnesses have described him as that guy Rudy or that Guede character. Interestingly, in a non related incident, police sources report that Rudy Guede was subjected to sever questioning for over 14 hours and constantly asked if he need a pillow for his upcoming train trip about the time these crimes were taking place but nobody has been taken in for questioning about these crimes.

The victims of these crimes, some of whom have lost some of their most prized possessions appear to be well satisfied with the non investigation. One was quoted as saying, "according to me, Rudy can explain".

Confirmation bias from the general populace...nah...couldn't be ;)

There are tons of unsolved crimes every week here in New York too, does that mean the next rapist/murderer is guilty of them?...
 
Confirmation bias from the general populace...nah...couldn't be ;)

There are tons of unsolved crimes every week here in New York too, does that mean the next rapist/murderer is guilty of them?...

The post was intended as humor Bob, my other point was secondary. Did you enjoy the humor part?
 
Read the thread, Kevin.

Rudy had the knife in his bag, not in his hand. When he broke into the nursery, he did not break any windows (the woman who found him testified that there was no damage to the building), and the knife was one he found inside the nursery. Is that clear enough? Or do you need further clarification?

Rudy could not have had the knife when he broke into the nursery because it was the nurseries knife - that means he didn't get the knife till after he was inside.

Armed burglary, not so much.

Why exactly do you think it is important that he secured a weapon after entering the building? Do you think this negates the fact that he was indeed somewhere he shouldn't have been and in possession of a weapon?

As it goes, can you provide evidence of Rudy Guede's rap sheet? Because, so far, the defense has yet to provide it. To further explain why the onus is on you, Guede's sentence was mitigated by 4 years specifically because he has no prior criminal record.
Well what a surprise. After Fiona was done dancing with that straw man, Bob took out out for another spin.

Edited by LashL: 
Edited for civility
Charming. How about you either get some citations to back up your claims, or **** and go back to PMF? Claims without citations are just hot air. I'd be surprised if you even remembered which particular claim you were trying to weasel out of providing evidence for by now.
 
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Why exactly do you think it is important that he secured a weapon after entering the building? Do you think this negates the fact that he was indeed somewhere he shouldn't have been and in possession of a weapon?
No, it doesn't. However, it's not quite the "breaking into a nursery while armed" that you presented, now is it?

Well what a surprise. After Fiona was done dancing with that straw man, Bob took out out for another spin.
How is that a strawman? You present actual evidence of Guede's criminal record, we'll acknowledge you were right. So far, no one's been able to do it. That's not a strawman, by any stretch.


RTFT? Charming. How about you either get some citations to back up your claims, or STFU and go back to PMF? Claims without citations are just hot air. I'd be surprised if you even remembered which particular claim you were trying to weasel out of providing evidence for by now.

Take note of the fact that I was here before this thread even started. Also note that I don't have a login at PMF, which of course means I don't post there either. I'm from JREF, Kevin. Not PMF. PMF is a source for translations, I don't care for their interpretation of those translations, just for the translations themselves. Do you have another source for the translated prison journals/email/testimonies? Didn't think so.

As for what it is that you asked for me to cite, it was a request for a cite of where in Raffaele's diary he stated that he had pricked Meredith's finger while cooking. Now, you'll note that not a single one of your "Amanda's an angel" brethren (and sistren) are willing to deny that Raffaele wrote this - rather, they attempt to argue his writing was merely him looking to find a way to make sense of what the Police had told him regarding the knife. Of course, that doesn't hold up when one realizes that Raffaele never cooked a meal with Meredith...so how, exactly, would this be merely looking for an innocent, truthful explanation for the DNA results? In fact, this flat-out-lie lends credence to the DNA results - why else would Raffaele feel the need to lie outright in an attempt to provide a reason for the DNA results if he didn't suspect they were valid...
 
No, it doesn't. However, it's not quite the "breaking into a nursery while armed" that you presented, now is it?

I just cited the specific news articles. What a surprise, you've made a straw man.

How is that a strawman? You present actual evidence of Guede's criminal record, we'll acknowledge you were right. So far, no one's been able to do it. That's not a strawman, by any stretch.

I never claimed he had criminal convictions. I just cited the specific, eyewitness accounts of his criminal behaviour in mainstream news sources. You keep trying to pretend someone is claiming he has criminal convictions, while no one is in fact making that claim, which makes your response a textbook case of arguing with a straw man.

As for what it is that you asked for me to cite, it was a request for a cite of where in Raffaele's diary he stated that he had pricked Meredith's finger while cooking. Now, you'll note that not a single one of your "Amanda's an angel" brethren (and sistren) are willing to deny that Raffaele wrote this - rather, they attempt to argue his writing was merely him looking to find a way to make sense of what the Police had told him regarding the knife.

So where's the specific citation? Crickets chirp, the sun rises and sets, days go by... where's the citation? Where, exactly, does one go to verify this claim of yours?

You'll forgive me if I assume, until you provide it, that you are completely misrepresenting the intent and/or context. That's based on previous bad experiences, you understand.

Oh, and one more thing: You characterised me as thinking "Amanda's an angel". Which form of argumentative dishonesty do you think that might be? I'll give you a clue: you and Stilicho and Fulcanelli resort to them the second you come under pressure. They rhyme with "flaw pan". Have you figured it out? No? It's a straw man!
 

Thanks Amazer, finally someone managed to cite a source.

I'l quote the relevant bit:

Raffaele's diary said:
It seems like a horror movie ... Looking back
and remembering it came to mind that the night dad sent me an sms
message of goodnight to be indiscreet (knowing that I was with
Amanda), then the day after Amanda repeated to me that if she had not
been with me at this time she would be dead. Thinking and
reconstructing, it seems to me that she always remained with me, the
only thing I do not remember exactly is when she left in the early
evening for a few minutes.

I am convinced that she could not have killed Meredith and then return
home. The fact that there is Meredith's DNA on the kitchen is because
once while cooking together, I shifted myself in the house handling
the knife, I had the point on her hand, and immediately after I
apologized but she had nothing done to her. So the only real
explanation of the kitchen knife is this.

It's pretty easy to see what's happening here.

The PMF echo chamber have decided that the "her" in "I had the point on her hand" meant Meredith, which would indeed be incriminating because it makes no damned sense at all.

An equally legitimate and considerably more logical interpretation is that "her" refers to Amanda, and he's hypothesising that Amanda touched Meredith and then his knife touched Amanda's hand and thus it was contaminated with Meredith's DNA.

This makes BobTheDonkey, who claimed that "in Raffaele's diary he stated that he had pricked Meredith's finger while cooking" a ******* liar.

Chalk up one more claimed slam-dunk that, once dragged out into the light of day, turned out to be complete miss.

Why am I not surprised?
 
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Thanks Amazer, finally someone managed to cite a source.

I'l quote the relevant bit:



It's pretty easy to see what's happening here.

The PMF echo chamber have decided that the "her" in "I had the point on her hand" meant Meredith, which would indeed be incriminating because it makes no damned sense at all.

An equally legitimate and considerably more logical interpretation is that "her" refers to Amanda, and he's hypothesising that Amanda touched Meredith and then his knife touched Amanda's hand and thus it was contaminated with Meredith's DNA.

This makes BobTheDonkey, who claimed that "in Raffaele's diary he stated that he had pricked Meredith's finger while cooking" a ******* liar.

Chalk up one more claimed slam-dunk that, once dragged out into the light of day, turned out to be complete miss.

Why am I not surprised?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...t-prison-diary-DNA-knife-pricked-cooking.html

He wrote: "The fact there is Meredith's DNA on the kitchen knife is because once when we were all cooking together I accidentally pricked her hand. I apologised immediately and she said it was not a problem."

This was published 9th December 2007 so I doubt PMF was even around then.
 
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Thanks Amazer, finally someone managed to cite a source.
My pleasure.

I'l quote the relevant bit:



It's pretty easy to see what's happening here.

The PMF echo chamber have decided that the "her" in "I had the point on her hand" meant Meredith, which would indeed be incriminating because it makes no damned sense at all.

An equally legitimate and considerably more logical interpretation is that "her" refers to Amanda, and he's hypothesising that Amanda touched Meredith and then his knife touched Amanda's hand and thus it was contaminated with Meredith's DNA.
That's certainly one way of interpreting it. The way it's written makes it hard to understand what he's trying to communicate. From what I understand, it's not the translation that's the problem but the way he speaks/writes his Italian that's rather poor and unconventional.

This makes BobTheDonkey, who claimed that "in Raffaele's diary he stated that he had pricked Meredith's finger while cooking" a ******* liar.
Not really, Bob's interpretation makes as much sense as yours.

Chalk up one more claimed slam-dunk that, once dragged out into the light of day, turned out to be complete miss.
Too early to tell.

Why am I not surprised?
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...t-prison-diary-DNA-knife-pricked-cooking.html

This was published 9th December 2007 so I doubt PMF was even around then.

Regardless, it's clear the article you cited just made the same "mistake" Bob did.

This just demonstrates the importance of going to a primary source (the diary) instead of taking the word of a second-hand source, even if it's a mainstream newspaper's site.

Not really, Bob's interpretation makes as much sense as yours.

Even the Daily Mail, probably the most notoriously terrible of the major UK newspapers, managed to include the fact that nobody including Raffaele ever claimed before or since that Meredith had ever been in his house.

No, Bob's interpretation makes no sense at all.

Raffaele used an ambiguous pronoun when he shouldn't have, and that's all there is to this talking point.
 
Regardless, it's clear the article you cited just made the same "mistake" Bob did.

This just demonstrates the importance of going to a primary source (the diary) instead of taking the word of a second-hand source, even if it's a mainstream newspaper's site.



Even the Daily Mail, probably the most notoriously terrible of the major UK newspapers, managed to include the fact that nobody including Raffaele ever claimed before or since that Meredith had ever been in his house.

No, Bob's interpretation makes no sense at all.

Raffaele used an ambiguous pronoun when he shouldn't have, and that's all there is to this talking point.

Considering that Meredith is the female in the passage we're referring to, it was not an ambiguous pronoun. It was, in fact, decidedly unambiguously indicating that Raffaele intended the passage to read that the prickee was Meredith. Where does he claim that Amanda was the middle between Meredith and his knife? He doesn't. He makes the claim that the only explanation for Meredith's DNA on the blade is because he pricked her hand with the knife.

This is like elementary grammar school here, sheesh.
 
Even the Daily Mail, probably the most notoriously terrible of the major UK newspapers, managed to include the fact that nobody including Raffaele ever claimed before or since that Meredith had ever been in his house.
Which is why Raffaele's apparent lack of clarity in the statement makes it so interesting.

No, Bob's interpretation makes no sense at all.
And you are entitled to that opinion. The way I see it is that the sentence can be successfully argued both ways. Since none of us knows for sure what ran through Raffaele's head when he penned this sentence the best we can do is to say that it can be explained both ways and we don't know which interpretation is the correct one.

Raffaele used an ambiguous pronoun when he shouldn't have, and that's all there is to this talking point.
So you think... just wait... let 10 pages go by and then someone else will bring this topic up again and we can (re)start this discussion from square one all over again.
 
Regardless, it's clear the article you cited just made the same "mistake" Bob did.

This just demonstrates the importance of going to a primary source (the diary) instead of taking the word of a second-hand source, even if it's a mainstream newspaper's site.



Even the Daily Mail, probably the most notoriously terrible of the major UK newspapers, managed to include the fact that nobody including Raffaele ever claimed before or since that Meredith had ever been in his house.

No, Bob's interpretation makes no sense at all.

Raffaele used an ambiguous pronoun when he shouldn't have, and that's all there is to this talking point.

What mistake did I make? You took a quote and implied that PMF somehow misrepresented this to mean something else. I provided you with an earlier source for the pricked finger quote to show that it didn't originate with PMF.
 
Considering that Meredith is the female in the passage we're referring to, it was not an ambiguous pronoun.

It was, in fact, decidedly unambiguously indicating that Raffaele intended the passage to read that the prickee was Meredith. Where does he claim that Amanda was the middle between Meredith and his knife? He doesn't. He makes the claim that the only explanation for Meredith's DNA on the blade is because he pricked her hand with the knife.

This is like elementary grammar school here, sheesh.

Well yes, and you're the student who is failing the course.

Look, I'll quote the relevant sentences for you again.

"I am convinced that she could not have killed Meredith and then return home. The fact that there is Meredith's DNA on the kitchen is because once while cooking together, I shifted myself in the house handling the knife, I had the point on her hand, and immediately after I apologized but she had nothing done to her."

"She" and "her" are Amanda, unless you are going to try claiming that he is proposing that Meredith committed suicide. Meredith is Meredith.

Nowhere is a finger pricked, as you claimed. Nowhere does he claim he drew blood from Meredith at his house with that knife.
 
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Considering that Meredith is the female in the passage we're referring to, it was not an ambiguous pronoun. It was, in fact, decidedly unambiguously indicating that Raffaele intended the passage to read that the prickee was Meredith. Where does he claim that Amanda was the middle between Meredith and his knife? He doesn't. He makes the claim that the only explanation for Meredith's DNA on the blade is because he pricked her hand with the knife.

This is like elementary grammar school here, sheesh.

Bob,

I think we have to keep in mind that Raffaele's style of writing is somewhat unconventional. At least, that's what I've been hearing.

Keeping that in mind, I'm open to the possibility that perhaps the sentences are just poorly constructed and that Raffaele did mean Amanda instead of Meredith.

It does make me wonder about Raffaele's mental capabilities though, if the sentence should be read as Kevin suggests it should.
 
What mistake did I make?

I didn't say you made a mistake. Read the post. I said Bob made a "mistake". Are you Bob?

You took a quote and implied that PMF somehow misrepresented this to mean something else. I provided you with an earlier source for the pricked finger quote to show that it didn't originate with PMF.

Fair enough too.
 
Interpreting the "her" as Amanda requires that Raffaelle is claiming some method whereby cutting Amanda's hand transfers Meredith's (and only Meredith's) DNA to the knife blade. But he doesn't even attempt to explain this method.

Interpreting the "her" as Meredith requires no such complicated method of transfer.

What was it about not multiplying entities unnecessarily?
 
Keeping that in mind, I'm open to the possibility that perhaps the sentences are just poorly constructed and that Raffaele did mean Amanda instead of Meredith.

It does make me wonder about Raffaele's mental capabilities though, if the sentence should be read as Kevin suggests it should.

It might also be who's doing the translation. Here's the passage in question in the original Italian.

Il fatto che c’è del Dna di Meredith sul coltello da cucina è perché una volta mentre cucinavamo insieme, io, spostandomi in casa maneggiando il coltello, l’ho punta sulla mano, e subito dopo le ho chiesto scusa ma lei non si era fatta niente. Quindi l’unica vera spiegazione a quel coltello da cucina è questa.

It's practically gibberish in the Google translation. Anyone have a better translation?
 
Interpreting the "her" as Amanda requires that Raffaelle is claiming some method whereby cutting Amanda's hand transfers Meredith's (and only Meredith's) DNA to the knife blade. But he doesn't even attempt to explain this method.

Good point. How could Amanda's DNA not be on the knife tip if she was pricked with it?
 
I in principle agree that there's no good reason why the defense shouldn't have identical access to the raw data like the prosecution has. They should have access to that data.

On what grounds was the release of the raw data denied? Was it due to some particular Italian laws or was there another reason given?

_________________

Hi Amazer. Yeah, I agree that the raw data should be released, but not to the nine American "DNA experts" who made this illogical statement in concluding their report:

"Summary:
DNA testing results [knife/bra clasp] described above could have been obtained even if no crime had occurred. As such, they do not constitute credible evidence that links Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito to the murder of Meredith Kercher." (See Friends of Amanda web site.)

To illustrate the fallacy, let's return to Johnny and the cookie missing from the cookie jar. There's those dirty little finger prints on the cookie jar, and those dirty foot prints in the kitchen, Johnny's red face, etc. Sure, there could have been such evidence pointing to Johnny as the culprit "even if no crime had occurred." Fine. So what? Even Johnny would not conclude that---"as such"--- there was no "credible evidence."

Amanda deserves experts who can think as well as Johnny.

///
 
_________________

Hi Amazer. Yeah, I agree that the raw data should be released, but not to the nine American "DNA experts" who made this illogical statement in concluding their report:

"Summary:
DNA testing results [knife/bra clasp] described above could have been obtained even if no crime had occurred. As such, they do not constitute credible evidence that links Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito to the murder of Meredith Kercher." (See Friends of Amanda web site.)

To illustrate the fallacy, let's return to Johnny and the cookie missing from the cookie jar. There's those dirty little finger prints on the cookie jar, and those dirty foot prints in the kitchen, Johnny's red face, etc. Sure, there could have been such evidence pointing to Johnny as the culprit "even if no crime had occurred." Fine. So what? Even Johnny would not conclude that---"as such"--- there was no "credible evidence."

Amanda deserves experts who can think as well as Johnny.

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I'd have no problem even if the data was released to those 9 scientists. I don't think they could be reliably considered independent after that letter anyhow.
 
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