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Tags cancer , Francine Scrayen , homeopathy , Penelope Dingle

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Old 10th June 2010, 05:01 AM   #1
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Cancer death puts homeopathy in dock

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1225877659069

Quote:
A homeopath told a patient with rectal cancer to avoid mainstream medicine because alternative treatment alone could cure her, an inquest was told.

The evidence given by her sister, as reported there, is astonishing.

See also: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...10/2923936.htm
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Old 10th June 2010, 05:16 AM   #2
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Quote:
She said she had been told by one of the couple's close friends that the Dingles had a pact with the homeopath treating Dingle, Francine Scrayen.

Under the pact, they agreed that only alternative medicine would be used and Dr Dingle would then write a book about curing his wife's cancer.
Hm. I wonder if, under this pact, he could be forced to write a book titled: "How my homeopathic remedies killed a woman".

I'd buy it.

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Old 10th June 2010, 05:20 AM   #3
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Appalling. However, like the baby with the eczema, we'll be told that this is a bizarre aberration of a maverick practitioner, and no responsible homoeopath would give such advice. Nobody will confront the fact that this is what they all believe and advise, it's just that most of them have sufficient common sense to abandon their principles if they encounter real, serious illness and confine themselves to "supporting the patient in a complementary role" and prescribing remedies to "alleviate the side-effects of chemotherapy".

The fact is that they all talk the talk. Very few of them may walk the walk all the way, but does that excuse the talk? Peter Fisher may deplore the homoeopaths who tell people to avoid anti-malarials and take homoeopathic prophylactics as well, but they're only following the logic of his own basic position.

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Old 10th June 2010, 05:22 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Peter Fisher may deplore the homoeopaths who tell people to avoid anti-malarials and take homoeopathic prophylactics as well, but they're only following the logic of his own basic position.

Indeed - how does he know the homoeopathic malaria prophylactics don't work?
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Old 10th June 2010, 05:37 AM   #5
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I think he's spent his life carefully only dealing with the self-limiting, the chronic but non-life-threatening, and the worried well. He's comfortable that homoeopathy "works" within these parameters. He doesn't believe homoeopaths should step out of this comfort zone, but he has never analysed the reasons for this belief.

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Old 10th June 2010, 05:40 AM   #6
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From the second link above - "She had dozens of bottles of pills. She had to follow her homeopath's instructions exactly," she said."

Wonder if the coroner will question the homeopath as to the mechanism by which her treatment would cure cancer. I predict silence or obfuscation but am not willing to rule out batguano insanity as a reply.
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Old 10th June 2010, 06:05 AM   #7
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Homeopathy. Never. Works.

Worst. Idea. Ever.

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Old 10th June 2010, 07:03 AM   #8
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I really wish these alt-med nutters would be held accountable for this kind of stuff.

BTW, I am unfamiliar with the colloquialism "in dock." What exactly does that mean? Searching shows that it is widely used in British and Australian media, but I can't find an explanation of meaning of the phrase. The best match I can come up with would be "on the spot" or "on the hot seat" or "under fire." Is that even close?
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Old 10th June 2010, 07:10 AM   #9
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The dock is the walled podium in a UK court where the accused stands during their trial.
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Old 10th June 2010, 12:02 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Spiro View Post
The dock is the walled podium in a UK court where the accused stands during their trial.
Got it. Thanks. So, all of homeopathy is on trial? Cool.
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Old 10th June 2010, 12:26 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Psi Baba View Post
Got it. Thanks. So, all of homeopathy is on trial? Cool.
You wish...
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Old 10th June 2010, 12:38 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Spiro View Post
The dock is the walled podium in a UK court where the accused stands during their trial.
Although this may not have been the poster's intention, I took it to mean "into storage" or "to bed" or "put away" or "into port", i.e. to imply that the death cast enough doubt on homeopathy that it should be locked up and put away. I thought the poster had taken a little license with the phrase "in[to dry] dock". The quoted meaning is more accurate of course but given the topic, both ideas have merit, I would say.
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Old 10th June 2010, 12:39 PM   #13
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"In the dock" is a standard figure of speech for "on trial", in the sense of standing accused of causing harm.

Don't you have docks in them furrin courts?

Rolfe.
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Old 10th June 2010, 12:41 PM   #14
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Something to do with "Admiralty Law".
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Old 10th June 2010, 12:44 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by cassis View Post
Although this may not have been the poster's intention, I took it to mean "into storage" or "to bed" or "put away" or "into port", i.e. to imply that the death cast enough doubt on homeopathy that it should be locked up and put away. I thought the poster had taken a little license with the phrase "in[to dry] dock". The quoted meaning is more accurate of course but given the topic, both ideas have merit, I would say.

I just used the headline of the story for the thread title. Headlines rarely have room for the definite article.
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Old 10th June 2010, 12:55 PM   #16
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So what type of homeopathy is Francine Scrayen? Multiple remedies is unusual. On the other hand all their web listingings are for homeapathy so not a case of a wondering quack.
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Old 10th June 2010, 01:18 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
Multiple remedies is unusual. On the other hand all their web listingings are for homeapathy so not a case of a wondering quack.
...even when you can charge by the bottle? Was she by any chance providing the 'medicines'?
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Old 10th June 2010, 01:33 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Fnord View Post

Homeopathy. Never. Works.

Worst. Idea. Ever.
That's not true, homeopathy can help in the alleviation of at least two diseases/conditions that I can think of off the top of my head.
Low blood sugar
Dehydration

Granted, you have to have to proper forumation of homeopathic solutions, solid pillules in the first case and a liquid remedy in the second, but I think you can see that both of these life-threatening cases could be satifactorily treated with a homeopathic remedy.




I am not a doctor and my words should not be taken as an endorsement of said treatments.
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Old 10th June 2010, 01:36 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Appalling. However, like the baby with the eczema, we'll be told that this is a bizarre aberration of a maverick practitioner, and no responsible homoeopath would give such advice.
And the savvy homeopathic practitioners will encourage you to get conventional medical treatment so that they can claim to have cured you despite the negative effects of "allopathy". (Or just lie and say that medical science could do nothing about the condition, but they improved markedly after they took the homeopathic--which just so happened to take place about the time you'd expect the conventional treatment to cause an improvement.)
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Old 10th June 2010, 01:39 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by kmortis View Post
That's not true, homeopathy can help in the alleviation of at least two diseases/conditions that I can think of off the top of my head.
Low blood sugar
Dehydration

Granted, you have to have to proper forumation of homeopathic solutions, solid pillules in the first case and a liquid remedy in the second, but I think you can see that both of these life-threatening cases could be satifactorily treated with a homeopathic remedy.
And, to have any reasonable chance of helping with these conditions, you'd have to take the homeopathic remedy in doses far greater than are normally recommended by the homeopaths. (10 to 20 drops of water per day won't do much to alleviate dehydration.)
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Old 10th June 2010, 01:43 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
And, to have any reasonable chance of helping with these conditions, you'd have to take the homeopathic remedy in doses far greater than are normally recommended by the homeopaths. (10 to 20 drops of water per day won't do much to alleviate dehydration.)
I never said it was a perfect cure.....



You're overthinking it a bit....
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Old 10th June 2010, 01:43 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by shadron View Post
...even when you can charge by the bottle? Was she by any chance providing the 'medicines'?
Well the building that is her postal adress is pretty new (it doesn't show up on google streetview).....


But seriously the charge for the remedies tends to be fairly low with the money being made up on consultation fees.
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Old 10th June 2010, 01:46 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
And the savvy homeopathic practitioners will encourage you to get conventional medical treatment so that they can claim to have cured you...

Under the microscope: Actress Olivia Newton John on breast cancer and her love for white toast

Quote:
I used homeopathy, acupuncture, yoga and meditation in conjunction with my chemotherapy to help me get stronger again after the cancer.

I also chanted with Buddhist friends and prayed with Christian friends. I covered all my bases.

Or, as the story is headlined elsewhere: "Olivia Newton John uses Homeopathy."
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Old 10th June 2010, 03:13 PM   #24
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She covered all her bases.

Which really means she had no faith in either one of them. Since most of these are faith based magical thinking, it's not going to work so well.
Sorry Olivia, enjoyed your movies. Rest in peace.

Oh wait, she got chemo as well.
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Old 10th June 2010, 07:13 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
"In the dock" is a standard figure of speech for "on trial", in the sense of standing accused of causing harm.

Don't you have docks in them furrin courts?

Rolfe.
No. The accused sits at a table next to their lawyer (the other lawyer and lawyer's client sits at a table on nearby). They do not have to stand, and if they do, it is just at the table.
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Old 10th June 2010, 07:22 PM   #26
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Odd outcome can be in any system. Few are accounted others may not.
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Old 10th June 2010, 07:34 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Odd outcome can be in any system. Few are accounted others may not.
This doesn't make sense.
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Old 10th June 2010, 10:39 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by kerikiwi View Post
This doesn't make sense.
As this is not accounted;-

The BBC have found someone whose cancer was cured by homeopathy
http://www.badscience.net/2010/02/th...by-homeopathy/
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Old 10th June 2010, 10:51 PM   #29
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I thought you were a sceptic now?
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Old 10th June 2010, 11:03 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
As this is not accounted;-

The BBC have found someone whose cancer was cured by homeopathy
No, the BBC has not. The woman is totally deluded.
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Old 10th June 2010, 11:17 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
As this is not accounted;-

The BBC have found someone whose cancer was cured by homeopathy
http://www.badscience.net/2010/02/th...by-homeopathy/
Not quite the same thing though, is it? Someone can believe they have cancer but be mistaken and appear then to be cured by a bogus treatment. It's a bit more difficult to be mistaken about whether or not you're dead.

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Old 11th June 2010, 08:10 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus View Post
Not quite the same thing though, is it? Someone can believe they have cancer but be mistaken and appear then to be cured by a bogus treatment. It's a bit more difficult to be mistaken about whether or not you're dead.

Yuri
You can google other cases in favour of alternative systems. If a person is both sided, he is called a justified person otherwise biased or selfish.
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Old 11th June 2010, 08:52 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
If a person is both sided, he is called a justified person otherwise biased or selfish.
By ' both sided' do you mean a person who accepts both real medicine(medicine supported by evidence that it actually works) and 'alternative' medicine?
That's not 'justified', that's something else.
If a person only accepts that which is supported by evidence, that's not biased and selfish, that's something else.
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Old 11th June 2010, 09:29 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
As this is not accounted;-

The BBC have found someone whose cancer was cured by homeopathy
http://www.badscience.net/2010/02/th...by-homeopathy/
Has the fact that the link points to a website whose domain is "BAD SCIENCE" not given you a clue as to its validity?
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Old 11th June 2010, 09:59 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
"In the dock" is a standard figure of speech for "on trial", in the sense of standing accused of causing harm.

Don't you have docks in them furrin courts?

Rolfe.

I think (not sure) that a dedicated enclosure ("dock") for the defendant may have been a regular part of court furnishings in England when this phrase developed. Perhaps it still is.

The closest U.S. analogue would be the "witness stand", which doesn't carry the same opprobrium of being charged with a crime. U.S. defendants normally sit with their attorneys at a table in front of the judge, just like the prosecution team.
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Old 12th June 2010, 10:23 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
She covered all her bases.

Which really means she had no faith in either one of them. Since most of these are faith based magical thinking, it's not going to work so well.
Sorry Olivia, enjoyed your movies. Rest in peace.

Oh wait, she got chemo as well.
She got chemo wayyyyyyyy too late, but I thought I read it was too late to even try chemo? *goes back to article*

No mention of chemo for dingle. None received. She only needed surgery at first, but waited too long, and then it was too widespread to do anything for her.
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Old 12th June 2010, 11:52 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Appalling. However, like the baby with the eczema, we'll be told that this is a bizarre aberration of a maverick practitioner, and no responsible homoeopath would give such advice. Nobody will confront the fact that this is what they all believe and advise, it's just that most of them have sufficient common sense to abandon their principles if they encounter real, serious illness and confine themselves to "supporting the patient in a complementary role" and prescribing remedies to "alleviate the side-effects of chemotherapy".

The fact is that they all talk the talk. Very few of them may walk the walk all the way, but does that excuse the talk? Peter Fisher may deplore the homoeopaths who tell people to avoid anti-malarials and take homoeopathic prophylactics as well, but they're only following the logic of his own basic position.

Rolfe.
Just curious, would you consider medical marijuana given to people to alleviate the side effects of chemotherapy alternative medicine? Or, since it actually has been demonstrably effective and is often recommended by mainstream doctors, would you consider that conventional medicine?

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Old 12th June 2010, 12:39 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Schrodinger's Cat View Post
Just curious, would you consider medical marijuana given to people to alleviate the side effects of chemotherapy alternative medicine? Or, since it actually has been demonstrably effective and is often recommended by mainstream doctors, would you consider that conventional medicine?

I certainly wouldn't consider it to be homoeopathy.
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Old 12th June 2010, 01:15 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Schrodinger's Cat View Post
Just curious, would you consider medical marijuana given to people to alleviate the side effects of chemotherapy alternative medicine? Or, since it actually has been demonstrably effective and is often recommended by mainstream doctors, would you consider that conventional medicine?

This brings up the thorny problem of defining "alternative medicine". My working definition tends to lean towards "treatments which have not been clearly demonstrated by rigorous science to be effective." Obviously, everyone won't agree with that one, but it's not unlike trying to define what exactly constitutes "country music". A lot depends on your perspective.

I don't think that there is any real question in the scientific community concerning the efficacy of marijuana as a palliative for the discomforts of chemotherapy, so I'd have to say, no, it isn't "alternative" medicine in that sense.

Whether or not it is an "approved" medicine seems to be more a matter of politics and geography than science. This might lead us into an alternative definition of "alternative".
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Old 12th June 2010, 01:50 PM   #40
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I wouldn't call it alternative, no. It's being used rationally, because of an apparent rational effect, though for obvious reasons it hasn't had enough formal testing to call it evidence-based either.

I wouldn't call cough mixtures alternative medicine either, even though that might be more feel-good, feel you're doing something, than actual pharmacological effect.

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