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Old 6th July 2010, 05:12 PM   #401
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I honestly thought this guy had a enough respect for history, to actually have some knowledge of it.

I was clearly wrong.
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Old 6th July 2010, 05:13 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
you consider yourself a worthy commentator on World history and affairs, and yet you have NEVER heard of the Zimmerman Telegram?????

back to ignore you go.
We will monitor that you stick with your promise.
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Old 6th July 2010, 05:17 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that your quote is both accurate and authoritative, and that there was a Jewish lobby that sought to bring America into the war on the Allied side. All this means is that some British Jews acted in their country's national interest, and that some American Jews were politically active in determining the policies of their nation; neither of these is in any way illegal, immoral or even unusual. Yet your argument is that this made all German Jews into traitors, despite the total absence of evidence that they were involved in, or even aware of, any such actions. And this is your justification for the murder of millions of German, Polish, French, Greek, Italian, Russian Jews - that a group of British Jews acted in such a way as to align their personal interests with their national interest.
Just serves to show how little conspiracy theorists know about politics, sociology, psychology, history, science and reality in general.
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Old 6th July 2010, 05:23 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
In your freak lefty progressive world women are deprived of chances of motherhood. In western countries the average child per woman ration is aproaching 1.0.

Dudalbs idea of a 'liberated' women: a 45 year old maiden with 10 'relationships' behind her, without a family, hacking away on a computer.
If that's her choice, who are you to criticize her ?

Quote:
Don't for a moment assume that the average 'suppressed' muslim women are unhappier than their 'liberated' feminist white counterparts.
They're certainly less free, however.

Your opinion on patriarchal oppression is not surprising, but nonetheless despicable. I'm so proud of you !
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Old 6th July 2010, 06:23 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
Don't for a moment assume that the average 'suppressed' muslim women are unhappier than their 'liberated' feminist white counterparts.
.
Yes, because who wouldn't be happy under these conditions...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/de...ender.religion
.
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Old 6th July 2010, 06:56 PM   #406
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I see that Our Little Old Investigator is fully keeping in the Good Old Nazi Doctrine of
"Kinden,Kirche und Kuchen" as being the proper role for Women. (I apoligize to German speakers, I probably butchured the spelling of that).
The English equivilent is "Keep Them Barefoot and Pregnant".
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Old 7th July 2010, 12:56 AM   #407
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I can assure you that not only is a Muslim woman considered less than a man in both a legal and cultural sense some are actually happy to be so. However many are very unhappy to be in this situation. Of course since a male of her family can kill her with legal obstruction - rebellion is not one of the choices.....as for many they consider their lot in life 'God' ordained and unchangeable...inshallah
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Old 7th July 2010, 01:38 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
Well here is your chance: enlighten us about the role of the Zimmermann telegram in bringing the US into WW1.
It hardly seems worth bothering. The content speaks for itself.

Dave
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Old 7th July 2010, 01:43 AM   #409
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
In your freak lefty progressive world women are deprived of chances of motherhood. In western countries the average child per woman ration is aproaching 1.0.

Dudalbs idea of a 'liberated' women: a 45 year old maiden with 10 'relationships' behind her, without a family, hacking away on a computer.

Don't for a moment assume that the average 'suppressed' muslim women are unhappier than their 'liberated' feminist white counterparts.

But your game is over anyway.
I think you'll find Griffin & the BNP are pretty much finished over here in the UK. They performed dreadfully (I mean really, really badly) in the May elections, the party is effectively bankrupt & Griffin is desperately trying to fend off a serious leadership challenge (hence the hysterical depiction of impending doom). You might want to look further afield for a 'messiah'.
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Old 7th July 2010, 01:44 AM   #410
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
I never heard of it before.
Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
Schwieger was the U-boat commander I presume?
I've heard of the argument from ignorance and the appeal to authority, but it seems to me that 9/11-investigator's whole approach is the appeal to ignorance; he knows nothing whatsoever about the circumstances surrounding America's entry into WW1, therefore he must be right. I'd have to take bill smith off ignore to see a comparable example of a poster, not just demonstrating, but positively flaunting, his ignorance.

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Old 7th July 2010, 02:09 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
Schwieger was the U-boat commander I presume?

Have any links to back this up?
It's you're theory. YOU do the basic research yourself since you seem to be strutting around acting like you know what you are talking about.

Since it would appear you don't even know the basic facts involving the case don't you think you should? I've noted historical error after error by yourself. Hate isn't interested in facts just hate.
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Old 7th July 2010, 05:43 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I've heard of the argument from ignorance and the appeal to authority, but it seems to me that 9/11-investigator's whole approach is the appeal to ignorance; he knows nothing whatsoever about the circumstances surrounding America's entry into WW1, therefore he must be right. I'd have to take bill smith off ignore to see a comparable example of a poster, not just demonstrating, but positively flaunting, his ignorance.

Dave
I am not even an amateur historian, just an informed layman (just like you guys), who every now and then reads a book on the subject, like the Buchanan book. This thread is not just a 'I-am-going-to-show-you-what-happened' exercise but a learning experience (OK, with the aim of bringing your demise nearer).

So... after all the usual self-congratulations we are still patiently waiting for either Dave or dudalb to make a case around this Zimmermann telegram and how it supports their Anglo-good-guys case.

Nothing so far. They probably never will make a case. From 10 km altitude they throw their 'we-have-got-the-Zimmermann-telegram' bomb and then they make a U-turn trying to escape the search light and subsequent flak.

Poor Dave & dudalb, where are the Soviets when you need them? Now they have brought Russia and China and Iran and Turkey and the rest of the entire muslim world against them. That's a lot for an aging population of Anglosphere on their way out of world history.

Fortunately they have Israel firmly behind them giving advise on what to do.

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Old 7th July 2010, 06:05 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
I am not even an amateur historian, just an informed layman (just like you guys), .
Speak for yourself - I've got a history degree
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Old 7th July 2010, 06:11 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
So... after all the usual self-congratulations we are still patiently waiting for either Dave or dudalb to make a case around this Zimmermann telegram and how it supports their Anglo-good-guys case.

Nothing so far. They probably never will make a case. From 10 km altitude they throw their 'we-have-got-the-Zimmermann-telegram' bomb and then they make a U-turn trying to escape the search light and subsequent flak.
So you don't see the importance of Germany telling Mexico they will supply them with money, arms, and ammunition if they declare war on the US?
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Old 7th July 2010, 06:32 AM   #415
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Quote:
I am not even an amateur historian, just an informed layman
Nope just a poorly educated (by choice) hate filled man who looks everywhere for evidence to support his hate. You are unable to do even basic research - why? Is it because it would rip holes in your cherished beliefs?

Your boneheaded Lusie theory is debunked and buried.

I'll leave the Zimmerman to the capable hands of others.
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Old 7th July 2010, 06:59 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
I am not even an amateur historian, just an informed layman (just like you guys), who every now and then reads a book on the subject, like the Buchanan book.
You're mistaken if you think you're an informed layman. From what you've said, you're supremely ignorant of the basic information in the field, so much so that you're not even competent to assess the reliability of any sources you draw upon. Not only that, but you can't even follow your own arguments. You've already admitted that the moral justification of America's entry into WW1 was irrelevant to your argument, and you've already been informed as clearly as possible that you're mistaken in the belief that there is a groupthink dogma in operation that Germany was solely and entirely to blame for all the events of WW1; and yet, here you are contradicting yourself again by demanding that we use the Zimmerman telegram to support your strawman argument that the Allies were entirely blameless for WW1. And then, when you start to perceive that you may have lost the plot, you blame the Jews.

Now, let's see what the significance of the Zimmerman telegram is to your theory that the sinking of the Lusitania was engineered by Jewish interests to bring America into the war. We know, first of all, that nearly two years elapsed between the sinking of the Lusitania and the entry of America into the war (at least, the rest of us know that; I suspect you imagine it was only a couple of weeks), so it seems a little unlikely that there was a direct causal relationship. We know that the German government discontinued its Atlantic U-boat campaign later in 1915, and that tension between America and Germany decreased markedly as a result. We know that the Zimmerman telegram re-inflamed these tensions, as it contained an outright declaration that Germany was resuming unrestricted submarine warfare; there had been sinkings of American ships, one in a surprise attack, in the early months of 1917, and the official stamp conferred by the Zimmerman telegram removed any hope that Germany could pretend that these were accidents or aberrations. And, finally, the Zimmerman telegram made it clear that Germany had hostile intentions towards the United States homeland, and was prepared to assist a third party in actual invasion of US territory.

The final act was Zimmerman's public admission that the document was genuine. Once its authenticity was beyond doubt, American public opinion was solidly in favour of war.

Say what you like about morals - although, in fact, the morality of America's entry into WW1 was perfectly defensible by the standards of the time - but there is no coherent argument for any other cause of the declaration of war than deaths of American citizens at sea from illegal German attacks and Germany's declared intention of supporting a war of aggression against the USA.

Dave
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Old 7th July 2010, 07:08 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
I am not even an amateur historian, just an informed layman
I think even that is being generous.
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Old 7th July 2010, 07:24 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
I am not even an amateur historian, just an informed layman (just like you guys), who every now and then reads a book on the subject, like the Buchanan book. This thread is not just a 'I-am-going-to-show-you-what-happened' exercise but a learning experience (OK, with the aim of bringing your demise nearer).
Speak for yourself as well. I'm currently doing a University History degree on the 20th Century. You might learn something if you read a few books on the subject, such as the Penguin History of the 20th Century. It's an interesting starting book on the subject.

Dave Rogers gives a solid description of the importance of the Zimmerman Telegram too. Nothing I can add. I can give you a suggested reading list on 20th Century History if you actually desire to learn.
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Old 7th July 2010, 07:29 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post

The final act was Zimmerman's public admission that the document was genuine. Once its authenticity was beyond doubt, American public opinion was solidly in favour of war.

Say what you like about morals - although, in fact, the morality of America's entry into WW1 was perfectly defensible by the standards of the time - but there is no coherent argument for any other cause of the declaration of war than deaths of American citizens at sea from illegal German attacks and Germany's declared intention of supporting a war of aggression against the USA.

Dave
It also has to be remembered that the "Black Tom" explosion in New York Harbour seems to validate the contents of the Zimmerman letter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Tom_explosion

Then there was this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_Larsen_affair

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Old 7th July 2010, 07:38 AM   #420
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Originally Posted by gtm View Post
I think you'll find Griffin & the BNP are pretty much finished over here in the UK. They performed dreadfully (I mean really, really badly) in the May elections, the party is effectively bankrupt & Griffin is desperately trying to fend off a serious leadership challenge (hence the hysterical depiction of impending doom). You might want to look further afield for a 'messiah'.
Here is the scumbag Griffin
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Old 7th July 2010, 07:47 AM   #421
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Here is Nick Griffin making a dick of himself on the BBC's Question Time.This is why his party did so badly during the recent election.He was exposed as the brain dead racist that he is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIHNJP9e9EQ

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Old 7th July 2010, 07:54 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
We will monitor that you stick with your promise.
You,sunshine,you.Not we.
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Old 7th July 2010, 09:42 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by garethdjb View Post
Why would I be recovering? You think I am either Argentinian, English or Australian?
You once denied (I believe) you were American. Combining your nickname with your probably autochtone level of English, although some doubts remain since your posts hardly ever are longer than 1-2 lines, led me to suspect that you are probably British (or maybe Dutch?). You could of course tell us, but if you don't want to, for instance because you are ashamed of your identity, then don't.

Quote:
That's not what I asked. I asked if you had read the book. The edition you've just linked to has a different title to the one you copy-pasted.
Of course not. I posted the quote in #340 "Emrys Hughes, "Winston Churchill, His Career in War and Peace" p. 145"

The link I posted in #349: http://www.amazon.com/Winston-Church.../dp/B0006ATSO8 The corresponding title says "Winston Churchill: British bulldog;: His career in war and peace"

Probable identical, would you not agree?

Quote:
Here's another quote from Emrys Hughes' book:

Quote:
In 1935 Churchill said: "One may dislike Hitler's system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated I hope we could find a champion as admirable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations".
You probably want to make a point. Maybe you want to go the extra mile and tell what the point is your are trying to make. I can guess it, but when I make that guess explicit you are going to say you meant something different.

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Old 7th July 2010, 09:50 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I seem to remember a well-known Jew holding that occupation. A lot of Aryans think a lot of him too, though they prefer not to remember he was Jewish. Funny, that.
I have that Carpenter removed from my system altogether. I promise you that my next religion will be totally asemitic. Not anti-, not filo- but a-semitic.

But I guess you take my word for it.

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Old 7th July 2010, 09:51 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
You once denied (I believe) you were American. Combining your nickname with your probably autochtone level of English, although some doubts remain since your posts hardly ever are longer than 1-2 lines, led me to suspect that you are probably British (or maybe Dutch?). You could of course tell us, but if you don't want to, for instance because you are ashamed of your identity, then don't.



Of course not. I posted the quote in #340 "Emrys Hughes, "Winston Churchill, His Career in War and Peace" p. 145"

The link I posted in #349: http://www.amazon.com/Winston-Church.../dp/B0006ATSO8 The corresponding title says "Winston Churchill: British bulldog;: His career in war and peace"

Probable identical, would you not agree?



You probably want to make a point. Maybe you want to go the extra mile and tell what the point is your are trying to make. I can guess it, but when I make that guess explicit you are going to say you meant something different.
So we can take it as read that you haven't read the book.
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Old 7th July 2010, 09:52 AM   #426
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Fact: German Jews volunteered for military service during WW1, at a higher percentage then their Christian counterparts. Where does this info come from? The German military did a study after the war to prove that the Jews had betrayed Germany, and they found that to the contrary, the Jews had served and fought valiently. The study was not widely published as it was an embarrassment to the military.

So it anything, it was not the Jews who betrayed Germany, but Germany who betrayed the Jews.
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Old 7th July 2010, 10:03 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
My great-Aunt's last name is Zimmerman. She is a Jew.
So you are possibly as well. That would explain that lion you maintain as your avatar.

I am glad that she still is a Jew, implying that she survived the H-word, assuming she was in Europe at the time.

Send her my best regards, will you.
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Old 7th July 2010, 10:12 AM   #428
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
So you are possibly as well. That would explain that lion you maintain as your avatar.

I am glad that she still is a Jew, implying that she survived the H-word, assuming she was in Europe at the time.

Send her my best regards, will you.
Ach y fi.
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Old 7th July 2010, 10:31 AM   #429
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
It also has to be remembered that the "Black Tom" explosion in New York Harbour seems to validate the contents of the Zimmerman letter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Tom_explosion

Then there was this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_Larsen_affair
Germany also had had a presence in Mexico for many years. The Mexican Government had hired several retired German Officers as advisers to try to modernize their military,as did several of the individual Warlords after Mexico plunged into Chaos in 1912. "The Wild Bunch " is pretty damn accurate on that point.
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Old 7th July 2010, 10:34 AM   #430
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator
So you are possibly as well. That would explain that lion you maintain as your avatar.

I am glad that she still is a Jew, implying that she survived the H-word, assuming she was in Europe at the time.

Send her my best regards, will you.

she was killed by a truck, while crossing the street, 6 years ago.

her first husband and two children were killed by the Nazis. then her brother was killed by the Soviets in 1952 (Slansky Trials).

she came to New York, married again, and raised two kids who went to Harvard and Yale and became very successful doctors. you could only wish to be as strong and courageous as my great-aunt was.

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Old 7th July 2010, 10:35 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
All I can say is somebody who pontificates on World War One and then turns out not to have heard of the Zimmerman Telegram has shot themsleves in the foot big time.
You will be surprised to learn that Buchanan does not mention the Zimmermann telegram anywhere in his latest book.

Probably not that big an issue.
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Old 7th July 2010, 10:39 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
You will be surprised to learn that Buchanan does not mention the Zimmermann telegram anywhere in his latest book.

Probably not that big an issue.
I can't imagine why he wouldn't mention the Zimmermann telegram in a book about WW2.
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Old 7th July 2010, 10:49 AM   #433
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
You will be surprised to learn that Buchanan does not mention the Zimmermann telegram anywhere in his latest book.

Probably not that big an issue.
Even if the Zimmermann telegram wasn't that big an issue, there's still the Unrestricted Submarine Warfare that the Germans engaged in against American shipping. Something you've still not addressed.

Also, relying on just one 'historian's' work is a sure fire way to gain an incomplete understanding of history. Perhaps you can read some more grounded works on the 20th Century first? Penguin's History of the Twentieth Century and Hobsbawm's Age of Empire and Age of Extremes are good initial choices for learning about the 20th Century.
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Old 7th July 2010, 10:51 AM   #434
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
You once denied (I believe) you were American. Combining your nickname with your probably autochtone level of English, although some doubts remain since your posts hardly ever are longer than 1-2 lines, led me to suspect that you are probably British (or maybe Dutch?). You could of course tell us, but if you don't want to, for instance because you are ashamed of your identity, then don't.
Dutch-Irish, my father was from Wales.


Quote:
Of course not. I posted the quote in #340 "Emrys Hughes, "Winston Churchill, His Career in War and Peace" p. 145"

The link I posted in #349: http://www.amazon.com/Winston-Church.../dp/B0006ATSO8 The corresponding title says "Winston Churchill: British bulldog;: His career in war and peace"

Probable identical, would you not agree?
But not identical. You copy-pasted the quote from some website without checking it. What source does Emrys Hughes provide for that Churchill quote, by the way?

Quote:
You probably want to make a point. Maybe you want to go the extra mile and tell what the point is your are trying to make. I can guess it, but when I make that guess explicit you are going to say you meant something different.
Guess away.
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Old 7th July 2010, 11:05 AM   #435
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I can't add much to Uzzy's explanation of why, according to the US, the US entered the war, except to say that protection of maritime trade has always been a major concern of the USA; they even went to war with us over it once.
The guy [Uzzy], who wished for my dear parents to be killed and hence is on ignore, quotes:

Quote:
Because German Unrestricted Submarine Warfare was sinking American ships and killing American sailors. One can read President Wilson's speech to Congress on the matter here, made on 2nd April 1917, and it's quite clear what the justification is. If you're not interested in clicking the link, here's an excerpt.
I agree that that was the official reason with which the war was sold. Again, here is the official propaganda:

http://www.hschamberlain.net/timeline/lusitania.jpg

But now for the real reason...

Let's go back again to Buchanan's book. Buchanan hides himself behind [drumroll]... Churchill!

Quote:
p95 - In The World in Crisis, Churchill would express puzzlement as to why the Americans ever went to war.

Churchill: "American historians will perhaps be somewhat lengthy in explaining to posterity why the United States entered the Great War on April 6, 1917... American ships had been sunk before by German submarines; as many American lives were lost in the Lusitania as in all the 5 ships whose sinking immediately preceded the declaration of war..."

"There were plenty of reasons of high policy for [America] staying out in 1917 after waiting so long", Churchill concluded
Not a peep about a telegram.

Churchill (let alone the Americans) could hardly say: "well the British made a deal with the Jews offering them Palestine provided they pushed these American suckers into the war against their own interest and help the British beat Germany".

But that would have been the truth.

Now Churchill (and Buchanan) pretend they don't understand why the US entered the war.

We cannot expect Buchanan to put his job at MSNBC at risk by coming up with all sort of conspiracy theories, stating that the Jews were behind US war entry. In America that would be anti-semitic and we are all glad we are not like that.

Buchanan goes as far right as is possible in the US without leaving main stream.
Refering to The Jews however is not in that package else you will be Helen Thomasized.

Last edited by 9/11-investigator; 7th July 2010 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 7th July 2010, 11:09 AM   #436
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So you're just going to refuse to read what the telegram said?
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Old 7th July 2010, 11:37 AM   #437
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Aha, finally. You can address points raised. Now, here's where we learn a lot more about history.

You see, up until 1917, the Kaiser and the Naval High Command were constantly countermanding each other regarding how the German Navy should operate, with the U-Boat fleet being withdrawn from service every time the Kaiser demanded that the U-Boats follow 'Cruiser' Rules, as in surfacing and demanding that the ship surrender. American ships being sunk were also few in number, despite a few famous cases. In essence, military priorities were put aside in favour of political ones.

1917 changed all of that. Admiral von Holtzendorff wrote a memo in December 1916 which argued that unless the Germans cut off Britain from supplies, they'd lose the war. Further, they would need to sink at least 600,000 tonnes of shipping a month to accomplish this. Holtzendorff also reassured the Kaiser not to worry about the American response, promising him that 'not one American will land on the continent.'

The Kaiser signed the order for Unrestricted Submarine Warfare on 1st February, 1917, and it was initially successful, with German U-Boats sinking 500,000 tonnes of shipping in February and March. This extracted a huge toll on American ships importing goods to Britain, and resulted in America declaring war on Germany on April 6th, 1917.

See, there is a difference between 1915 and 1917.
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Old 7th July 2010, 01:47 PM   #438
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post
So you're just going to refuse to read what the telegram said?
I am still waiting for someone to make a case for the telegram as (one of) the prime cause(s) of American war entry... so I can slaughter him.

The others here realize that too well and are not willing to play that role.

But maybe excaza wants to have a go at it?

Last edited by 9/11-investigator; 7th July 2010 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 7th July 2010, 01:51 PM   #439
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
I am still waiting for someone to make a case for the telegram as (one of) the prime cause(s) of American war entry... so I can slaughter him.

The others here realize that too well and are not willing to play that role.

But maybe excaza wants to have a go at it?
.
This post was not enough for you ... why?
.
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Old 7th July 2010, 02:38 PM   #440
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Originally Posted by TSR View Post
.
This post was not enough for you ... why?
.
Nazis are not noted for being quick on the uptake.His use of the word slaughter was very revealing.
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