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Old 1st August 2011, 06:57 AM   #5081
dafydd
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Originally Posted by MaxMurx View Post
The territories claimed by A.H. were not claimed based on intrinsic "imperialism" or the wish to conquer the world: they were former German soil with populations of up to 95% Germans. The ground was taken after WWI by the Versailles treason which also contained the War Guilt lie. That doesn't make the lucky winners and war profiteurs to legal owners for eternity with the license to mistreat German minorities. This "I am Big and Mighty" pose was only possible because the German army was cut to a size half of the size of the army of Switzerland. As consequence paramilitary troops (the Communist "Rote Frontkämpfer"Brigades had 600.000 men; Stahlhelm (nationalist conservative) had 200.000 and also 200.000 had the "Reichsbanner Schwarz Rot Gold" of the independent social democrates USPD fought openly in the streets since 1919. Two Red Armies, supported by the Bolshevist Russian Regime, were in existence (Bayern and Ruhr Red Armies). Under these conditions it was easy for the Polish Army High Command to reply on German demands of border revisions: "The mighty Polish Army will draw the new border through the centre of Berlin". That noise was remarkably muted after it was realised that the Wehrmacht had more than 100.000 lightly armed wildlife rangers.
The mouth became bigger again after the British blanco cheque to Poland.
On August 25, 1939 Hitler told France he bore no enmity toward France, did not want war, but rather good relations with her. ("The Polish provocation, however, has placed the Reich in a position which cannot be allowed to continue. . . . Not only has the Warsaw Government rejected, my proposals, but it has subjected the German minority, our blood brothers, to the worst possible treatment, and has begun mobilization. . . . No nation worthy of the name can put up with such unbearable insults. France would not tolerate it any more than Germany. These things have gone on long enough, and I will reply by force to any further provocations. . . ." French, No. 242, pp.

Latest on this date A.H.'s position was known.

On August 30, 1939 : Lord Halifax warned Poland to abstain from violence and stop inflammatory radio propaganda. ("Atmosphere may be improved if strict instructions are given or confirmed by Polish Government to all their military and civil authorities. . . . Not to fire on fugitives or members of the German minority who cause trouble, but to arrest them; to abstain themselves from personal violence to members of German minority, . . . to allow members of German minority wishing to leave Poland to pass freely; to stop inflammatory radio propaganda." Ibid., No. 85, p. 182.)

Why were the Poles playing as if they had been the peaceful personification of Innocence, brutally ambushed by barbaric Huns? They had willingly provocated the war, perhaps underestimating the Wehrmacht's capacity, but that doesn't make them heroes.

One word to "dafydd," "Corsair" & Co: Quit insulting other contributors. I don't see such a difference in your intellectual niveaus which could justify such an arrogance.


Thanks
Hitler started WWII. He was planning a war from the moment he seized power. Maybe not a world war,he never thought that Britain would fight but he badly underestimated us. Hitler made his plans about lebensraum clear in Mein Kampf. His intentions about the Jews were fairly clear too. I'm proud of the part my dad and my uncles played in ridding the world of that maniac. One of my uncles saw Belsen,and I've never forgotten his description of it. He only told me once,after I pressed him. In my experience people who come here 'only asking questions' about the Holocaust or the origins of WWII are closet Nazis and anti Semites,sooner or later they drop the mask. I do this because the world needs constant reminders of the dangers of fascism,what are you doing here ? As for insulting nazis,you cannot insult pond life. I consider it a duty to trash them at every opportunity.

'Rhetoric does not get you anywhere, because Hitler and Mussolini are just as good at rhetoric. But if you can bring these people down with comedy, they stand no chance.'-Mel Brooks

I`m the only Jew who ever made a buck offa`Hitler`!-Mel Brooks

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Old 7th August 2011, 02:33 PM   #5082
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At dawn on 1 September 1939, the German Army entered Poland. In the twentieth century, war in Europe
automatically means world war. So the war in fact quickly laid hold upon both Europe and almost the whole
of the rest of the world.
By a strange confluence of circumstances, it was precisely on that very same day of 1 September that the
Fourth Extraordinary Session of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR passed a law establishing general liability
for military service. Throughout the whole of the Soviet Union's history, there had never been such a law.
While Hitler was frightening children (and grown-ups), and was looked upon as a monster and an ogre, the
Soviet government had in fact got by without any general military-service liability law. Yet as soon as the Non-
Aggression Pact was signed, an act was needed to establish a general obligation to perform military service.
September 1939 was the beginning of the phoney war in the West. In the same month, a no less phoney peace
began in the East.
Why did the Soviet Union need to impose the general obligation to military service? The communists will
answer with one voice that it was needed because the Second World War began that day; they did not want to
take part in it, but were simply taking precautionary measures. Marshal of the Soviet Union, K. A. Meretskov,
was one of the many who asserted that the law was of great significance and was passed 'in the conditions of
World War II which had already begun'. (Na Sluzhbe Narodu, IPL, Moscow, 1968 p. 181)
Let us imagine the Polish-German frontier on that tragic morning - darkness, mist, shooting and the roar of
engines. There were few in Poland who understood what was happening, whether it was a provocation or an
unauthorized clash which had somehow been self-generated. But at the same moment, the deputies of the
Supreme Soviet of the USSR - including shepherds from the mountainous pastures high above the cloud level
and distinguished reindeer breeders from nomad camps in the Arctic - were assembled in Moscow. They
already knew that it was neither provocation, nor a clash, nor a Polish-German war, nor even a European
war, but the beginning of the Second World War; and they immediately met in emergency session to pass the
appropriate laws. Yet how can it be explained why these same deputies did not react with identical swiftness
when a similar thing happened on the Soviet-German frontier in 1941?
On that morning of 1 September, it was not only the Polish government and the governments of western
countries who did not know that a new world war had begun. Hitler himself did not know it. He began the war
against Poland in the hope that it would only be a local action, like the seizure of Czechoslovakia had been.
This is not just Goebbels' propaganda. Soviet sources say the same thing: 'Hitler was convinced,' wrote Air
Colonel-General A. S. Yakovlev, who was a personal adviser of Stalin's at the time, 'that Britain and France
would not go to war over Poland.' (Tsel' Zhizni, IPL, Moscow, 1968, p. 212)
Thus Hitler did not know that he was beginning World War II; the comrades in the Kremlin knew it all too
well. But it is, of course, a long -way to Moscow. Some deputies needed a week, others as much as twelve
days to reach the capital. This means that, in order to discuss the war which had begun in Europe, someone
gave the signal to the deputies to gather in the Kremlin before the war began. Indeed, I believe that someone
gave this signal even before the Molotov—Ribbentrop pact was signed.

Suvorov V. The Icebreaker. Who Started the Second World War. Hamish Hamilton Press, London ; pp. 50-51;1988
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Old 7th August 2011, 02:54 PM   #5083
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If you're gonna start on Suvorov, you're going to make an even bigger fool of yourself than you did with the sten guns and the non-existent Daily Mail quotes.
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Old 7th August 2011, 03:50 PM   #5084
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Originally Posted by garethdjb View Post
If you're gonna start on Suvorov, you're going to make an even bigger fool of yourself than you did with the sten guns and the non-existent Daily Mail quotes.
Hating Jews does odd things to the brain,don't you agree?
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Old 7th August 2011, 06:12 PM   #5085
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Hitler started WWII. He was planning a war from the moment he seized power.

Moreover, as a chapter in The Wages of Destruction lays out, given the level of economic output of Germany being directed to rearmament in the late 1930s, it had little choice but to go to war or face a potential crash of its economy.
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Old 7th August 2011, 06:49 PM   #5086
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Moreover, as a chapter in The Wages of Destruction lays out, given the level of economic output of Germany being directed to rearmament in the late 1930s, it had little choice but to go to war or face a potential crash of its economy.
What is it about Hitler that these guys find so loveable? A homoerotic undertone,methinks.
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Old 7th August 2011, 09:29 PM   #5087
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
What is it about Hitler that these guys find so loveable? A homoerotic undertone,methinks.
Nah, he was the 'last chance of the white race', you'll notice that WP have disappeared from the world stage since he shot himself.
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Old 8th August 2011, 02:26 AM   #5088
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Originally Posted by MaxMurx View Post
*snip*
0 marks for blatant copying from a singular source, reported for plagiarism.

Read more books.
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Old 8th August 2011, 02:39 PM   #5089
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From a propaganda standpoint the replies were partially:
ad hominem
obfuscation
red herring

in summary: anything but intelligent.

Go and learn the difference between plagiarism and a quotation, then come back and try again spitting large.
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Old 8th August 2011, 03:28 PM   #5090
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So MM in your own words what do you find of use in Surovov that is related to what you have said before?
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Old 8th August 2011, 05:24 PM   #5091
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Originally Posted by MaxMurx View Post
From a propaganda standpoint the replies were partially:
ad hominem
obfuscation
red herring

in summary: anything but intelligent.

Go and learn the difference between plagiarism and a quotation, then come back and try again spitting large.
We are bringing ourselves down to the level of Nazis. We can take a shower later,but with no Zyklon B.
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Old 15th September 2013, 09:51 PM   #5092
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Getting back to the subject of the thread, if anyone's interested, here's my synopsis of the First World War.

Germany, Austria and Italy are stood together in the middle of the bar-room, when Serbia bumps into Austria, and spills Austria's pint.
Austria demands Serbia buy it a complete new suit, because there are splashes on its trouser leg.
Germany expresses its support for Austria's point of view.
Britain recommends that everyone calm down a bit.
Serbia points out that it can't afford a whole suit, but offers to pay for cleaning Austria's trousers.
Russia and Serbia look at Austria.
Austria asks Serbia who it's looking at.
Russia suggests that Austria should leave its little brother alone.
Austria inquires as to whose army will assist Russia in compelling it to do so.
Germany appeals to Britain that France has been looking at it, and that this is sufficiently out of order that Britain should not intervene.
Britain replies that France can look at who it wants to, that Britain is looking at Germany too, and what is Germany going to do about it?
Germany tells Russia to stop looking at Austria, or Germany will render Russia incapable of such action.
Britain and France ask Germany whether it's looking at Belgium.
Turkey and Germany go off into a corner and whisper. When they come back, Turkey makes a show of not looking at anyone.
Germany rolls up its sleeves, looks at France, and punches Belgium.
France and Britain punch Germany. Austria punches Russia. Germany punches Britan and France with one hand and Russia with the other. Russia throws a punch at Germany, but misses and nearly falls over. Japan calls over from the other side of the room that it's on Britain's side, but stays there. Italy surprises everyone by punching Austria.
Australia punches Turkey, and gets punched back. There are no hard feelings, because Britain made Australia do it.
France gets thrown through a plate glass window, but gets back up and carries on fighting. Russia gets thrown through another one, gets knocked out, suffers brain damage, and wakes up with a complete personality change.
Italy throws a punch at Austria and misses, but Austria falls over anyway. Italy raises both fists in the air and runs round the room chanting.
America waits till Germany is about to fall over, then walks over, waves a fist at Germany while Britain knocks it out, then pretends it won the fight all by itself.
By now all the chairs are broken, and the big mirror over the bar is shattered. Britain, France and America agree that Germany threw the first punch, so the whole thing is Germany's fault. While Germany is still unconscious, they go through its pockets, steal its wallet, and buy drinks for all their friends.

Nobody comes out of it looking particularly good.

Dave
Now an internet meme (unattributed) - http://themetapicture.com/if-world-w...s-a-bar-fight/
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Old 15th September 2013, 10:56 PM   #5093
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Now an internet meme (unattributed) - http://themetapicture.com/if-world-w...s-a-bar-fight/
Unattributed - HA!11!
Go ahead and believe the official story if you want, but I know who was behind all this. Cui bono, man, cui bono?
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Old 15th September 2013, 11:26 PM   #5094
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Hmmmmm, funny but they don't do Italy right at the beginning, Italy should be standing with AH & G at the start then slips underneath a table.
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Old 16th September 2013, 05:02 AM   #5095
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Quote:
Who started both World Wars?
Austrians.
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Old 16th September 2013, 06:48 AM   #5096
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Austrians.
WINNER!!
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Old 16th September 2013, 12:19 PM   #5097
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The Centennial of the start of World War One next year (2014) is bringing, as expected, a flood of books on the origins and start of World War One. Just search Amazon.
Currently reading Christopher Clark's "The Sleepwalkers:How Europe Went To War 1914" and preordered Max Hastings "Catastrophe:1914". Nice balance because Clark's work is straight up Diplomatic history focusing on the causes of the war and Hastings appears to focus on the outbreak and military operations.
And I will probably give Barbara Tuchman's classic "The Guns Of August" another read.
And there are plenty more books on the start of World War One coming down the chute.
Sort of like the flood of new books on the Civil War we are seeing for it's 150th Anniversary. And these floods always vary in quality: Some books very good, other medicore and some outright bad.
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Old 16th September 2013, 01:42 PM   #5098
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I didn't read all 128 pages, so this might have been covered, but in the interest of creating an infinity thread: When did WW II officially end? Not when did fighting stop, but when did the formal state of war end?
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Old 16th September 2013, 01:43 PM   #5099
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The WWI as a bar fight was cute is there a WWII version set at a family BBQ? (in the sense of a European family)
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Old 16th September 2013, 01:45 PM   #5100
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Time to get out my "Diplomacy" set again....God, In college I wasted a lot of time on that game....
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Old 16th September 2013, 01:59 PM   #5101
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
The WWI as a bar fight was cute is there a WWII version set at a family BBQ? (in the sense of a European family)
I guess the Canadians, Yanks, and the rest are the out of town cousins...
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Old 17th September 2013, 06:09 AM   #5102
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I was shopping at a local antique store and they had this set of books from the mid 20's that was supposed to be a complete account of WWI. All the battles, politics.... everything.

What I found funny was the introduction to the first book. It basically said "Germany is totally evil, and the US and its allies are totally awesome. Germany, in its evilness, started the war and deserves everything it got at the end. If you don't agree, you are an idiot, a fool, and probably a traitor"
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Old 17th September 2013, 10:43 AM   #5103
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
The WWI as a bar fight was cute is there a WWII version set at a family BBQ? (in the sense of a European family)


The German Family sits down at their picnic table. The German family then declares that the Austrian Family is also part of the German Family. None of the Austrian Family denies this, so they push their two tables together.

The German and Austrian Families then jointly declare that the Czechoslovakian Family is also German, because one of them married a German. They push the Czechoslovakian Family's table together with the German and Austrian Families' tables, and punch out the Czechoslovakian Family's Father when he objects.

The German Family now declares that their table is too small, and they want half of the Polish Family's Table. The Russian Family pipes up that they want the other half.

The British and French Families say that's ********, but don't actually do anything to stop the German and Russian Families, as they're way on the other side of the park. The German and Russian Families slap the Polish Family around a bit, then cut their table in half. Some of the Polish Family slip away to join the British Family at their table.

The German and Austrian Families sit around bragging about the size of their table for a while, until they notice some of the tougher members of the British Family are sneaking over to sit at the French Family's table. The German and Austrian Families then rush the French Family's table, knocking over the Belgian Family's table in the process.

The German and Austrian Families beat up half the French Family, whereupon the other half of the French Family declare they didn't want to fight in the first place, and The German and Austrian Families can just have the table if they want it so much.

The tougher members of the British Family (and a few members of the French Family) retreat to the British Family's table. Several members of the German and Austrian Family move over to the French Family's table, and start hitting on the French Family's girls.

Several members of the Canadian Family show up at the British Family's table, saying they heard there was a fight.

The German, Austrian, and British Families spend the next little while lobbing dinner rolls back and forth between tables.

Eventually, both the German Family and the British family declare that they're going to the beach, and the other better not get in their way. They spend a bit of time shoving each other back and forth from one end of the beach to the other.

The American Family shows up, declares they'd like a chunk of the beach as well, and traps the German family in the middle of the beach between the American and British families. The German Family retreats, claiming they were tired of the beach anyway.

The American and British Families go back to the British Family's table, and start talking loudly about taking back the French Family's table. The Canadian Family gets bored and rushes the French Family's table, but most of them end up coming back with broken noses.

Part of the German Family lounges around at the French Family's table, but suddenly, a large group of them rush the Russian Family's table. The Russian Family retreats in surprise, but then comes back with a large group of cousins the German Family didn't know were invited. The German and Russian Families start brawling. Several tables gets smashed in the process.

While the German Family is distracted, the British, Canadian, and American Families rush the French Family's table. They quickly beat up the few members of the German Family still sitting at the French Family's table. The British, Canadian, and American Families start hitting on the French Family's girls.

After a bit, the Russian Family yells to the British, Canadian, and American Families that they're about to take over the German Family's table, and asks if the British, Canadian, and American Families want to get in on this. The British, Canadian, American and Russian Families beat up what's left of the German Family, and split their tables down the middle.

The Austrian Family declares they weren't ever really part of the German Family, and pushes their original table back to where it came from, and the British, Canadian, American and Russian Families just roll their eyes, and decide not to call them on it.

The Polish and Czechoslovakian Families try to point out that their tables are still full of members of the Russian Family, but everyone ignores them.





Ignores some details (like the Italians), so feel free to add.
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Old 17th September 2013, 11:00 AM   #5104
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Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty View Post
I was shopping at a local antique store and they had this set of books from the mid 20's that was supposed to be a complete account of WWI. All the battles, politics.... everything.

What I found funny was the introduction to the first book. It basically said "Germany is totally evil, and the US and its allies are totally awesome. Germany, in its evilness, started the war and deserves everything it got at the end. If you don't agree, you are an idiot, a fool, and probably a traitor"
That about sums it up.
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Old 17th September 2013, 12:26 PM   #5105
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I didn't read all 128 pages, so this might have been covered, but in the interest of creating an infinity thread: When did WW II officially end? Not when did fighting stop, but when did the formal state of war end?
That depends on the belligerent. There were separate peace treaties with the various axis belligerents.

Pacific theater:
  • Manchuko: it's hard to sign a peace treaty with a state that no longer exists.
  • Thailand: Anglo-Thai Peace Treaty on 1 January 1946, signed only by the UK on the Allied side. No formal peace treaty with the US or with France.
  • Japan: Treaty of San Francisco, 8 September 1951. Of the Allies, 47 signed - so many of those were only token Allies. The Soviet Union had a later peace declaration with Japan; the People's Republic of China never, AFAICS.

European theater:
  • Croatia: see Manchuko above.
  • Slovakia: see Croatia above.
  • Iraq: no formal peace treaty. A rebel government seized power in April 1941 and sought help with the Axis powers to oust Britain. In the Anglo-Iraqi war of May 1941, the British defeated the rebels and reinstalled the previous government.
  • San Marino: no formal peace treaty. San Marino declared war on Britain on 17 September 1940, but declared neutrality three days after Mussolini was deposed.
  • Bulgaria, Finland, Italy, Hungary, Romania: Paris Peace Treaties, 10 February 1947. Signed by various, differing sets of Allied powers, see the full text of the five separate treaties for the details.
  • Austria: Austrian State Treaty, 15 May 1955. Signed on Allied side by the four occupying powers France, Soviet Union, UK and USA: Austria, like Germany, had been divided into four occupation zones which were under military command of those respective Allied countries, and Vienna, like Berlin, had also been divided into four occupation zones.
  • Germany: Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany, better known as the Two-Plus-Four Treaty, 12 September 1990, less than a month before the German reunification. As with Austria, the treaty was signed on Allied side only by the four occupying powers. Until then, both Germanies were technically still occupation zones of the four Great Powers.

The wiki page on the Axis powers has some more info on obscure Axis client states that were installed during the war.
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Old 17th September 2013, 02:17 PM   #5106
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Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty View Post
I was shopping at a local antique store and they had this set of books from the mid 20's that was supposed to be a complete account of WWI. All the battles, politics.... everything.

What I found funny was the introduction to the first book. It basically said "Germany is totally evil, and the US and its allies are totally awesome. Germany, in its evilness, started the war and deserves everything it got at the end. If you don't agree, you are an idiot, a fool, and probably a traitor"
That was probably true about Germany in World War 2,World War 1..not so much.
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Old 12th March 2014, 07:50 PM   #5107
EventHorizon
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Getting back to the subject of the thread, if anyone's interested, here's my synopsis of the First World War.

Germany, Austria and Italy are stood together in the middle of the bar-room, when Serbia bumps into Austria, and spills Austria's pint.
Austria demands Serbia buy it a complete new suit, because there are splashes on its trouser leg.
Germany expresses its support for Austria's point of view.
Britain recommends that everyone calm down a bit.
Serbia points out that it can't afford a whole suit, but offers to pay for cleaning Austria's trousers.
Russia and Serbia look at Austria.
Austria asks Serbia who it's looking at.
Russia suggests that Austria should leave its little brother alone.
Austria inquires as to whose army will assist Russia in compelling it to do so.
Germany appeals to Britain that France has been looking at it, and that this is sufficiently out of order that Britain should not intervene.
Britain replies that France can look at who it wants to, that Britain is looking at Germany too, and what is Germany going to do about it?
Germany tells Russia to stop looking at Austria, or Germany will render Russia incapable of such action.
Britain and France ask Germany whether it's looking at Belgium.
Turkey and Germany go off into a corner and whisper. When they come back, Turkey makes a show of not looking at anyone.
Germany rolls up its sleeves, looks at France, and punches Belgium.
France and Britain punch Germany. Austria punches Russia. Germany punches Britan and France with one hand and Russia with the other. Russia throws a punch at Germany, but misses and nearly falls over. Japan calls over from the other side of the room that it's on Britain's side, but stays there. Italy surprises everyone by punching Austria.
Australia punches Turkey, and gets punched back. There are no hard feelings, because Britain made Australia do it.
France gets thrown through a plate glass window, but gets back up and carries on fighting. Russia gets thrown through another one, gets knocked out, suffers brain damage, and wakes up with a complete personality change.
Italy throws a punch at Austria and misses, but Austria falls over anyway. Italy raises both fists in the air and runs round the room chanting.
America waits till Germany is about to fall over, then walks over, waves a fist at Germany while Britain knocks it out, then pretends it won the fight all by itself.
By now all the chairs are broken, and the big mirror over the bar is shattered. Britain, France and America agree that Germany threw the first punch, so the whole thing is Germany's fault. While Germany is still unconscious, they go through its pockets, steal its wallet, and buy drinks for all their friends.

Nobody comes out of it looking particularly good.

Dave
This is making the rounds on the interwebs again. Still unattributed. That annoys me.
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Old 12th March 2014, 09:26 PM   #5108
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It's still funny though, but yeah, the author should get the credit.
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Old 13th March 2014, 05:21 AM   #5109
Muc
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Originally Posted by MaxMurx View Post
The fourth obstacle to a German-Polish understanding was the ruthless Polish treatment of minorities. This concerned primarily the Polish mistreatment of the Germans, but the Polish attempt to strand more than 50,000 of their Jewish nationals in the Reich, in 1938, also had a bad effect on German-Polish relations. The Polish policy in this maneuver to rid Poland of a large number of Polish Jews was both cruel and audacious. The step itself is not comprehensible unless one takes account of the rising tide of anti-Jewish feeling in Poland early in 1938.
Well, thank god the Nazis eventually sweeped into Poland to protect the Jews from discrimination.
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Old 17th March 2014, 02:39 AM   #5110
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Originally Posted by 9/11-investigator View Post
Spin-off from the holocaust thread.

So who started WW1 and WW2? 'Easy', the average Anglo will say, 'The Germans!'... and he will continue to chew on his bagel and listen to the monotonous rap on his iPod.

Is that true? Let's start a little quiz. Here a list of possible candidates:

1) Germany
2) England
3) France
4) Poland
5) America
6) 'The Jews'
7) Hitler
8) Churchill
9) Norway
10) Kazakhstan (according to the latest insights as proposed by carlitos and TSR a European country)
11) Other, namely...
.
The answer is all of the above, especially 11.

WHY?
Let me introduce you to the idea of naive causality...

A cause relies not just on a single intentional agent of causality, but a range of complex factors.
A light goes on and the naive causalist points to the boy pressing the switch. However on deeper inspection we learn that he was told to put the light on by his Mummy, because she could not see well enough to knit the new baby's outfit. The baby was the result of her daughter being raped by a stranger. So the cause of the light going on has a range of other associated causes.
The earth moves and the sun disappears over the horizon; sexual desire can trump social morals; sperm meets egg; there is a tradition of knitting a baby's first outfit by the g-mother of the child; son's follow the instructions of their mothers; and I have not even begun to look at the causal chain inside the light circuit, nor made any reference to power generation, electrons yada, yada, yada....

Now the World Wars had not equally complex ranges of causality, but far more complex.

The World Wars were always going to happen because populations increase with expansive pressure in a political culture in which the idea of War to get what you want was common place; alliances and treaties had been entered into.
Humans prefer not to look at their own responsibility but prefer to direct BLAME onto easily identifiable sources.
But anything that allows or enables a war to happen is part of the cause. Do I blame the political culture? No. But it was part of the cause, so was the shooting of Arch-Duke Ferdinand, the gun seller, the shooter, and the designer of the gun.
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Old 17th March 2014, 04:01 AM   #5111
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Originally Posted by chazwyman View Post
The answer is all of the above, especially 11.

WHY?
Let me introduce you to the idea of naive causality...

A cause relies not just on a single intentional agent of causality, but a range of complex factors.
A light goes on and the naive causalist points to the boy pressing the switch. However on deeper inspection we learn that he was told to put the light on by his Mummy, because she could not see well enough to knit the new baby's outfit. The baby was the result of her daughter being raped by a stranger. So the cause of the light going on has a range of other associated causes.
The earth moves and the sun disappears over the horizon; sexual desire can trump social morals; sperm meets egg; there is a tradition of knitting a baby's first outfit by the g-mother of the child; son's follow the instructions of their mothers; and I have not even begun to look at the causal chain inside the light circuit, nor made any reference to power generation, electrons yada, yada, yada....

Now the World Wars had not equally complex ranges of causality, but far more complex.

The World Wars were always going to happen because populations increase with expansive pressure in a political culture in which the idea of War to get what you want was common place; alliances and treaties had been entered into.
Humans prefer not to look at their own responsibility but prefer to direct BLAME onto easily identifiable sources.
But anything that allows or enables a war to happen is part of the cause. Do I blame the political culture? No. But it was part of the cause, so was the shooting of Arch-Duke Ferdinand, the gun seller, the shooter, and the designer of the gun.
Pure mathematically you might be right.

But if you go too far with this line of thinking, then it must mean that nobody is responsible, because everybody is responsible.
And yet some actors have a greater part in starting the World Wars than others.
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