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Tags alcoholics anonymous , alcoholism , treatment programs

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Old 3rd August 2010, 10:48 AM   #481
WanderingSkeptic
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I must confess I've never found any hint of the AA being religious in any way. Whenever my car breaks down, I call, they come and fix it ... no problem ... no religion (unless of course you count the "Oh my God you really fixed it" moment ... er what .. sorry ... oh, you are not taking about that AA !!!
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Old 3rd August 2010, 11:00 AM   #482
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Originally Posted by WanderingSkeptic View Post
I must confess I've never found any hint of the AA being religious in any way. Whenever my car breaks down, I call, they come and fix it ... no problem ... no religion (unless of course you count the "Oh my God you really fixed it" moment ... er what .. sorry ... oh, you are not taking about that AA !!!
I thought that was AAA?
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Old 3rd August 2010, 01:17 PM   #483
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How can NOT thinking rationally bring understanding ?
Alcoholics and rational thinking, seldom do they meet. Certainly alcoholics consider themselves rational thinkers. At some point down the path their rational thinking has trouble relating to the episodes of spousal and child abuse, the DUIs, the job performance decline, and all the joys of alcoholism.

Should such an individual seek a lifeline, AA offers one even to atheists.

I'm addressing that group, not clear thinkers like you who have no substance abuse problem.

Force of will can stop the first drink, but in an alcoholic that will by itself becomes less and less effective after 2, 3 or whatever. AA has a phrase to describe it, the "Gritted teeth, nope, I won't take the first one."; dry drunk. Family, friends, and the individual himself may decide continuing to drink is no worse.


Quote:
Do you even know what "word salad" means ?
Sure. I suspect you think I provided more above.

Libet's work implies you are wrong about the, shall we call it "subconscious", mind being less powerful than the conscious mind. The subconscious is apparently where decisions are actually made. I'd call that ones' "higher power", and good choice to petition for help that the conscious mind is not providing an alcoholic atheist.
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Old 3rd August 2010, 05:02 PM   #484
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Volunteered at a street magazine, three hours a week, for three quarters of a year. Buy the magazine every month. Donate money to groups that help prostitutes, the homeless and drug addicts.
Fantastic!
At least one here has more than hot air.

Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Appeal to authority, okay.
Who else should I defer to? Anonymous internet posters with an axe to grind?
Like I said, for the time being - I'm comfortable with it.

Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Don't fall off your high horse AA Alfie, this is an internet forum, but if you want to pump up your ego, go right ahead.
Nothing to do with ego - a lot to do with truth and honesty and backing words with actions.

So to you DD and the others. Apart from trying to pull down one desperately needed source of comfort for the suffering, what do you do?

Last edited by Hallo Alfie; 3rd August 2010 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 3rd August 2010, 05:36 PM   #485
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AAAlfie, How is getting someone to admit that AA is a religious support group bringing anyone down?

If an OPENLY religious support group for alcoholics helps a few of the religiously inclined, I have no problem with it. And I'm not knocking those who genuinely feel helped.

It's the disingenuous denials that the 12 Steps are religious tenets and that AA is at it's core a Christian organization, and it's insinuation into the Judicial and Medical systems (in the US) that causes the problems.

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Old 4th August 2010, 03:14 AM   #486
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Nice try, no cigar.
Nice try what ? You seem to be under some mistaken impression that you can avoid what I say by saying I avoid what you say. I don't find such tactics impressive.

Quote:
The question was (and remains) "what religion is being taught" when all these differing beliefs (and non-beliefs) can come happily together under one roof?
And the answer was : "Because religious people tend to see more in common with other woo-woos than they do with those who don't believe. Look at the muslims for instance. Some passages in their books tell them to hate Jews and other non-mulsims, but to simply kill the atheists on sight. "

Christianity is being taught, but when given a choice, believers will stick with believers, even from other faiths, rather than stick with the evil atheists.
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Old 4th August 2010, 03:16 AM   #487
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Originally Posted by AlBell View Post
Should such an individual seek a lifeline, AA offers one even to atheists.
Not from what I've read in this thread.

Quote:
I'm addressing that group, not clear thinkers like you who have no substance abuse problem.
Well I'm sorry, but I'm not going away.
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Old 4th August 2010, 03:32 AM   #488
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Originally Posted by Manopolus View Post
I thought that was AAA?
Yes in the US ... but over here in the UK, its just the AA

Last edited by WanderingSkeptic; 4th August 2010 at 03:32 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 4th August 2010, 04:04 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Nice try what ? You seem to be under some mistaken impression that you can avoid what I say by saying I avoid what you say. I don't find such tactics impressive.

And the answer was : "Because religious people tend to see more in common with other woo-woos than they do with those who don't believe. Look at the muslims for instance. Some passages in their books tell them to hate Jews and other non-mulsims, but to simply kill the atheists on sight. "

Christianity is being taught, but when given a choice, believers will stick with believers, even from other faiths, rather than stick with the evil atheists.
Yep, the last bit you added was an attempt to answer, the rest (in your first post) was all straw; so still no prize for you in spite of your foot stamping.

But you haven't told me how all those non theists fit in quite comfortably with all the other "woo-woos". How do they accept and reconcile these supposed christian teachings you speak of?

The answer is simple, they don't have to because it is not an factor if they don't wish it to be. Spirituality, religion or non is a choice.

Sobriety gets taught, not religion.


Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Not from what I've read in this thread.
Then you must have missed this:

Tradtion three:
The only requirement for sobriety is a desire to stop drinking. And

the 12 steps are "suggested".

Nothing is compulsory, everything is the choice of the individual.

Last edited by Hallo Alfie; 4th August 2010 at 04:06 AM.
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Old 4th August 2010, 05:17 AM   #490
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It may be useful now to compare AA Alfie's tone at the start of this thread, to his tone now. I've read through pages and pages of this long thread, and it has sounded from the beginning, Alfie, like you have been assuming people are attacking AA in a general way, rather than simply commenting on the spiritual assumptions many AA groups make. The longer one stabs at phantasms, the more convincing they become.

Quote:
Sobriety gets taught, not religion.
This is being a bit silly, don't you think? Religious overtones are often the means by which the sobriety is taught. Splitting them apart as different end-results is a bit duplicitous.

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie
On the contary, anything can be ones higher power;
This is the one that I hear most often. It's flim flam of course:
Quote:
STEP 3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to our Higher power (as I understood it).
This necessarily means something with the capacity to comprehend the will and lives of sentient beings. This is the kind of double think proponents of AA will indulge in: 'Any higher power will do... until you get to the next steps'
Quote:
STEP 5: Admitting to our Higher Power, to ourselves and another human beings the exact nature of wrongs.
Again, how can one admit to something that does not possess the capacity to understand admissions? The higher power can be anything apparently... as long as it thinks.

Steps 6 and 7 also make assumptions of cognisance on behalf of the higher power, and to a much lesser extent steps 11 and 12.

People will react to being patronised - that does not mean they are attacking everything AA is trying to do. Just stop claiming that a higher power can be anything, when you know damn well that subsequent steps define that possibility away.

(PLEASE NOTE: This was edited before I saw Alfie's reply - the final sentence was reworded before I saw that Alfie has responded to it.)

Last edited by Pombolo; 4th August 2010 at 05:25 AM.
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Old 4th August 2010, 05:21 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by Pombolo View Post
People will react to being patronised - that does not mean they are attacking everything AA is trying to do. Just stop claiming that a higher power can be anything, when you know damn well that subsequent steps prevent that.
How do they prevent it?
How if it is a god of ones own understanding.
Why can't this be anything anyone wants?
And why does the individual have to do that/those steps when they are only suggestion?


When people say AA is "dangerous" and make up lies, I do actually think they are attacking AA. What would you think they are doing?

Last edited by Hallo Alfie; 4th August 2010 at 05:25 AM.
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Old 4th August 2010, 05:32 AM   #492
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
How do they prevent it?
I've literally JUST explained why.

Quote:
How if it is a god of ones own understanding.
Because as you just said... it's a god. That is what many don't believe in. Appending it with "of your own understanding" is just patronising in the extreme.

Quote:
Why can't this be anything anyone wants?
I already gave two examples.

Quote:
And why does the individual have to do that/those steps when they are only suggestion?
In your group perhaps. The point remains that the crap about 'higher power' is used to mean "anything" one moment, then is used to necessarily imply a cognisant force the next moment.

Quote:
When people say AA is "dangerous" and make up lies, I do actually think they are attacking AA. What would you think they are doing?
I explicitly said "People will react to being patronised"... that does not mean they are attacking AA. What other people are doing is their own responsibility - react to them however you wish

I get the sense that you don't read conflicting viewpoints very closely any more (the above-mentioned questions I had already answered) and are in a 'Me and Them' mentality. Am I wrong?
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Old 4th August 2010, 05:41 AM   #493
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Fantastic!
At least one here has more than hot air.



Who else should I defer to? Anonymous internet posters with an axe to grind?
Excuse me AA alfie, you are being a ----. there is no data to support the disease model of alcoholism, for the two reasopns I stated, it does not meet any defintion of disease.
(There are alcoholics who are not biologically predisposed, there are alcoholics that do not have withdrawal symptoms.)

So define disease and see how it matches. No one told you to grind an ax, you did that on your own.
Quote:
Like I said, for the time being - I'm comfortable with it.
That is not the issue, many people can be comfortable with many things, and they still are incorrect. So define disease and how that disease is different from a mental disorder (your own words) and then show how alcoholism is a disease, not a mental disorder.
Quote:


Nothing to do with ego - a lot to do with truth and honesty and backing words with actions.
Then stop bragging on how important you are, that is what makes you such a braggart and your words as empty as any preacher.
Quote:

So to you DD and the others. Apart from trying to pull down one desperately needed source of comfort for the suffering, what do you do?
You are a ----, where did I pull down AA ? AA Alfie, maybe you should go chill out and come back and read for comprehension.

I have done my time, my work history is explained many places on this Forum. (I just happen to chose to work in schools now.)

Why don't you care about 13 million children dying from preventable causes every years?
What are you doing about it?
Why don't you care about domestic violence and the people whose lives are ruined by it every year?
What are you doing about it?
Why don't care about insert cause and problem here?
What are you doing about it?

You have drifted far from the topic AA Alfie and you have mistaken your ego for the discussion.
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Last edited by Dancing David; 4th August 2010 at 05:46 AM.
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Old 4th August 2010, 05:44 AM   #494
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Mod WarningFolks - lets get back to the topic of the thread and drop the personalisation of the arguments and discussion.
Posted By:Darat
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Old 4th August 2010, 06:22 AM   #495
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Hmmm.

My main objections to many of the comments of others (outright lies are not included) are the broad brush strokes many have applied to the entire movement of AA.

I have repeatedly said that AA in Australia is not religious, we could care less what one believes. That is the way our groups run. That said, there is a spirutual aspect that can be utlised if one wishes.

Most of us believe there is an inherent difference between spirituality and religion (which there is - in broad terms, one is a strict set of faith-type beliefs, teachings etc. the other a sense of self and meaning to life).

I have also conceded that I do not know how they operate in the states, however the steps and traditions leave things completely open to the interpretation of the individual. So if you don't like it, no-one should care. If someone in an AA group does, find another group, start one yourself, do anything; there are no rules.

I also know that there are zealots here and there who will shove there beliefs down your throat given half a chance; there are human beings involved.

Religion in the states, seems to be a highly divisive subject drawing plenty of fruit loops from either side. That is too bad, they both do a disservice to AA as a whole.

Those here who believe it to be religious, fine. I don't really mind, but you are mistaken, and I would suggest this is simply a knee-jerk reaction to an inherent hatred of anything religious. Just a sniff will set some off, as I say - it seems a very divisive topic in some countries.

Sure AA has some roots in christianity, so what. It doesn't teach christianity, Christ is never mentioned. God is, sure (remember its roots?), again, so what? Believe what you want, many of us simply prefer the term higher power and this doesn't have to be something floating in the ether. It is a god of your understanding in whatever form you choose (or not) to use. For many, the higher power is simply the fellowship or nature.
I know many of you have trouble getting your heads around this and that's just too bad - it's not your life, sanity, job whatever that is on the line. When it is, perhaps you will be given the gift of desperation.

The sole purpose for AA is to give relief to the suffering alcoholic and - by extension - those around them.

I apologise if anyone took my passion for a sober life as AA zealotry. I do cherish my sobrity, AA helped save my life and there is no doubt about that in my mind. But as my life has been saved, I have had the unfortunate task to bury many, many others. If I seem defensive when AA is attacked, it is because I do see the great good that is done by the people in the fellowship of AA, they have no other motive except to stay sober and help others to get and stay sober (with the usual disclaimer about certain individuals).

I am an agnostic and frankly, I think it a bit rich for people to suggest I am anything but. Same for the atheists among us, same for others who follow other religions and/or beliefs. To suggest anything else is going on (especially by those with little or zero first hand knowledge) is arguing from ignorance.

AA can be religious - if you want it to be.
AA can be spiritual - if you want it to be.
AA can be all about sobrity - and that's how it should be.

Last edited by Hallo Alfie; 4th August 2010 at 06:30 AM.
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Old 5th August 2010, 02:40 AM   #496
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Yep, the last bit you added was an attempt to answer, the rest (in your first post) was all straw; so still no prize for you in spite of your foot stamping.
It's not my fault if you didn't connect the first part to your question in the first place and I had to breast-feed you the solution.

Quote:
But you haven't told me how all those non theists fit in quite comfortably with all the other "woo-woos". How do they accept and reconcile these supposed christian teachings you speak of?
I don't need to. From what I've read here and heard elsewhere they don't fit in at all.

Quote:
Then you must have missed this:

Tradtion three:
The only requirement for sobriety is a desire to stop drinking. And

the 12 steps are "suggested".

Nothing is compulsory, everything is the choice of the individual.
Yes. Just like we have "free will" but must choose to follow Jesus or else we're sent to hell forever. I'm quite aware of what "choice" means to a Christian.
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Old 5th August 2010, 06:00 AM   #497
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's not my fault if you didn't connect the first part to your question in the first place and I had to breast-feed you the solution.
Hmmm. Interesting - you explain youself spectacularly poorly, and that's my fault.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't need to. From what I've read here and heard elsewhere they don't fit in at all.
Then you are mistaken - and continue to speak from ignorance. I know hundreds of examples personally - I'm one of them. How do they not fit in when there is no requirement to accept god in any way unless one wishes?


Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes. Just like we have "free will" but must choose to follow Jesus or else we're sent to hell forever. I'm quite aware of what "choice" means to a Christian.
Where is Jesus mentioned anywhere in AA as a means to recovery? For some Christian individuals sure, but where in AA?
You continue to apply your own (mis)judgements and values on the words of others without first hand experience. Some call that contempt prior to investigation.

Last edited by Hallo Alfie; 5th August 2010 at 06:02 AM.
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Old 5th August 2010, 09:14 AM   #498
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Hmmm. Interesting - you explain youself spectacularly poorly, and that's my fault.
Whatever helps you feel superfior, Alfie.

Quote:
Then you are mistaken - and continue to speak from ignorance. I know hundreds of examples personally - I'm one of them. How do they not fit in when there is no requirement to accept god in any way unless one wishes?
If I may ask, what was YOUR higher power ?

Quote:
Where is Jesus mentioned anywhere in AA as a means to recovery? For some Christian individuals sure, but where in AA?
Now that was your misunderstanding, not my spectacularily poor expression skills.
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Old 5th August 2010, 05:14 PM   #499
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If I may ask, what was YOUR higher power ?
Sure, the fellowship or the group of AA; the people. Worked great for me.


Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Now that was your misunderstanding, not my spectacularily poor expression skills.
Fair enough.
But once again incorrectly, you are suggesting that AA members have no choice. That it just patently wrong.
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Old 5th August 2010, 06:17 PM   #500
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Sure, the fellowship or the group of AA; the people. Worked great for me.




Fair enough.
But once again incorrectly, you are suggesting that AA members have no choice. That it just patently wrong.
So a regular drinker would be welcome?
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Old 5th August 2010, 09:00 PM   #501
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Yep, although they would be encouraged to put it down.

Tradition Three:
"The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking" (i.e. they don't actually have to have stopped)
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Old 5th August 2010, 10:15 PM   #502
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I'd have to guess that some fraction of the people in any church aren't believers. They come because their mother makes them, or their spouse likes it, or maybe they think it's necessary to appear religious in the community.

Might be the same for atheists in AA I guess.
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Old 5th August 2010, 10:22 PM   #503
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Or it might be much simpler.
A principle which allows them to be true to themselves and their beliefs - any God, Higher Power, Power greater than themselves is OPTIONAL.
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Old 6th August 2010, 02:50 AM   #504
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Sure, the fellowship or the group of AA; the people. Worked great for me.
Then I submit, based on my own second-hand experience, that yours was an atypical group, and that you are generalizing based on one data point.

Quote:
But once again incorrectly, you are suggesting that AA members have no choice. That it just patently wrong.
Personally, if I were a drinker, the only power I can depend on to stop would be ME. Nobody else can make me stop. They can help me, but that's it. The idea of the 12-step program and the concept of the required higher power is ridiculous. That AA says this is obligatory for recovery is a lie.
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Old 6th August 2010, 03:02 AM   #505
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Then I submit, based on my own second-hand experience, that yours was an atypical group, and that you are generalizing based on one data point.
Nope, I know hundreds and hundreds of people and have been to hundreds of groups, this isn't isolated in Australia, nor elsewhere in the world. That said, I acknowledge that the God botherers in the states may have a different take and like to push this down the throat of others.
In other counries of the world, religion is not the huge polarising deal it is in the states.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Personally, if I were a drinker, the only power I can depend on to stop would be ME. Nobody else can make me stop. They can help me, but that's it. The idea of the 12-step program and the concept of the required higher power is ridiculous. That AA says this is obligatory for recovery is a lie.
They don't say it is obligatory - it is "suggested" (page 59 of the big book).
A Higher power is suggested, prayer is suggested, so is meditation, making amends, taking a good look at yourself, and living an honest life, and others - they are all "suggested". Do it, don't do it, the choice is yours: Just dont drink and your life will get better.

And again, tradition three says:
"The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking"

No God in there, no religion, no spirituality, no sobriety required either, nothing is obligatory; just a desire to stop.

Cheers.

Last edited by Hallo Alfie; 6th August 2010 at 03:05 AM.
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Old 6th August 2010, 11:52 AM   #506
Belz...
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
Nope, I know hundreds and hundreds of people and have been to hundreds of groups, this isn't isolated in Australia, nor elsewhere in the world.
That's a lot of people. I assume you all asked them if divinity was an issue at their AA meetings ?

Quote:
They don't say it is obligatory - it is "suggested" (page 59 of the big book).
Suggestions are usually mandatory in religious circles.
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Old 6th August 2010, 12:50 PM   #507
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To be fair to AAAlfie, it's true that some non-theist AA members are able to get past the whole "Higher Power"/God trip.

My bone of contention with AAAlfie is that he continues to deny that the 12 Steps are basically religious tenets (and that the "suggestion" thing is BS), and that AA is basically a religious organization that wields an inordinate amount of power in the Health and Judicial sector, and has influenced the language and framed the debate surrounding the Drug War.

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Old 6th August 2010, 01:16 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Then I submit, based on my own second-hand experience, that yours was an atypical group, and that you are generalizing based on one data point.
There have been a few of us that have had the same experience. Possible of course that we were all at an atypical group.

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Personally, if I were a drinker, the only power I can depend on to stop would be ME. Nobody else can make me stop. They can help me, but that's it. The idea of the 12-step program and the concept of the required higher power is ridiculous. That AA says this is obligatory for recovery is a lie.
This is partly why there is AA and other self-help groups. We could be talking about anything.

Personally, if I was a fat guy, I could just eat less....

Personally, if I was dyslexic, I could just focus better...

Personally, if I was a kleptomaniac, I could just steal less...

Anytime someone says, "well I'm not one, but if I was, I would just do this, it's easy..." I quit paying attention.
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Old 6th August 2010, 02:03 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Excuse me AA alfie, you are being a ----. there is no data to support the disease model of alcoholism, for the two reasopns I stated, it does not meet any defintion of disease.
(There are alcoholics who are not biologically predisposed, there are alcoholics that do not have withdrawal symptoms.)

So define disease and see how it matches. No one told you to grind an ax, you did that on your own.

That is not the issue, many people can be comfortable with many things, and they still are incorrect. So define disease and how that disease is different from a mental disorder (your own words) and then show how alcoholism is a disease, not a mental disorder.

Then stop bragging on how important you are, that is what makes you such a braggart and your words as empty as any preacher.


You are a ----, where did I pull down AA ? AA Alfie, maybe you should go chill out and come back and read for comprehension.

I have done my time, my work history is explained many places on this Forum. (I just happen to chose to work in schools now.)

Why don't you care about 13 million children dying from preventable causes every years?
What are you doing about it?
Why don't you care about domestic violence and the people whose lives are ruined by it every year?
What are you doing about it?
Why don't care about insert cause and problem here?
What are you doing about it?

You have drifted far from the topic AA Alfie and you have mistaken your ego for the discussion.
So the AMA classifies it as a disease because....
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Old 6th August 2010, 02:22 PM   #510
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Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie View Post
A principle which allows them to be true to themselves and their beliefs...
So being instructed to "fake it till ya make it" (in other words to lie to yourself) is an example of being "true to themselves and their beliefs"??

...and please don't sidestep the question by saying that's not how they do it where you're from as that would be irrelevant...that's the way "they" do AA here.

Quote:
...any God, Higher Power, Power greater than themselves is OPTIONAL.
Then why even mention it in the "book" unless it's supposed to be followed?

From reading this entire thread, it appears that you will say anything in order to "protect" AA from what you consider to be an "attack". It's not really an attack, you know, it's simply a statement of what AA "is"...a religious organization.
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Old 6th August 2010, 02:56 PM   #511
Malerin
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Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
So being instructed to "fake it till ya make it" (in other words to lie to yourself) is an example of being "true to themselves and their beliefs"??

...and please don't sidestep the question by saying that's not how they do it where you're from as that would be irrelevant...that's the way "they" do AA here.



Then why even mention it in the "book" unless it's supposed to be followed?

From reading this entire thread, it appears that you will say anything in order to "protect" AA from what you consider to be an "attack". It's not really an attack, you know, it's simply a statement of what AA "is"...a religious organization.
Specifically, which religion?
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Old 6th August 2010, 04:09 PM   #512
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Specifically, Christianity, and a Protestant version at that. All you have to do is google the Official AA website from which I and others have posted their own words. Check out the History of AA at Wikipedia if you don't already know it (as I and others do).

Though attempts have been made to Universalize and Secularize AA by local chapters, the essence of the program continues to be a religious support group (which is fine as far as that goes), and the 12 Steps, which even with sanitized language are religious tenets.

There are actually other recovery programs for non-theists with NO connection to AA at all, and no 12 Steps. Rational Recovery is one such program.

GB
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Old 6th August 2010, 05:03 PM   #513
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Originally Posted by Malerin View Post
So the AMA classifies it as a disease because....
Before I respond:

Data, evidence and citations?
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Old 6th August 2010, 05:24 PM   #514
Hallo Alfie
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Suggestions are usually mandatory in religious circles.
Hilarious. The efforts some will go to.....
I'm going to say this loud and clear this time, as you seem to have not heard so far..

Tradition three says:

THE ONLY REQUIREMENT FOR MEMBERSHIP IS A DESIRE TO STOP DRINKING

Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
So being instructed to "fake it till ya make it" (in other words to lie to yourself) is an example of being "true to themselves and their beliefs"??
Fake it till you make it. I have heard that often and used it from time to time myself. It is not used simply about a higher power - sometimes it is about loving yourself or others, sometimes it is about enjoying being sober (which can be really hard early on), sometimes about attitudes and thoughts that we can't let go. In other words it can be a lot of things.
On the HP example though, for some who are struggling to find their HP, faking it till you make it might be a good idea. Personally this tends to be a one-size-fits-all approach and ultimately a bit too simplistic especially for the non theist.
Spiritualiity, religion and ones HP are very very personal things. Exploration in this area is best done with a sponsor and the people who know you best.

Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
...and please don't sidestep the question by saying that's not how they do it where you're from as that would be irrelevant...that's the way "they" do AA here.
Not a sidestep but a statement of fact. Curiously earlier on I was called on not knowing how it worked in the states. I really can't win here.

Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
Then why even mention it in the "book" unless it's supposed to be followed?
This has been explained a number of times. The big book was one mans journey. His experience strength and hope. He just happened to be a founder. He has never said he has the first and last word on recovery and as such his story is one example.
The steps and traditions are the 'rules' for AA, not the big book story of Bill W.

Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Before I respond:

Data, evidence and citations?
Their 'judgement' was posted by me some pages ago.
So was WHO's attitude, and the APA assessment that AA is not religious.

These were provided and rejected (by some) on the basis of.... er, nothing but personal opinion from what I recall.


In the meantime, I have been waiting ages for information and statistics on other forms of recovery that I might be able to direct the suffering to.

Luckily I had lots of popcorn.

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Old 6th August 2010, 05:37 PM   #515
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Before I respond:

Data, evidence and citations?
That the AMA considers alcoholism a disease? You seriously need a citation on this?
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Old 7th August 2010, 04:25 AM   #516
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Originally Posted by Malerin View Post
That the AMA considers alcoholism a disease? You seriously need a citation on this?
Context is king. "Classification of Diseases", probably has a long prolouge and description of what the usage is.

And then there is the dual nature of the classification.

AA Alfie provided his reasons for calling it a disease rather than a mental disorder, which was the fallacy I was responding too.

So I again ask because it also depends upon how you define the term disease, in the DSM-V and in the ICD 9/10 (used by WHO) it is characterized by the behavioral components and I can demonstrate that, it is a behavioral disorder under both those systems and not generally considered a 'disease' in the common sense.

So now you sling out the AMA, so how and why do they classify it the way that they do?

Or are you just using argument from authority?
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Old 7th August 2010, 06:54 AM   #517
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Context is king. "Classification of Diseases", probably has a long prolouge and description of what the usage is.

And then there is the dual nature of the classification.

(snip)

So now you sling out the AMA, so how and why do they classify it the way that they do?
In the U.S. at least, the classification has political and economic ramifications that extend past any scientific rigor. If you get something properly classified, you can then get insurance companies to pay for it and a whole slew of funding becomes available.

Behavioral 'syndromes' get moved the other way as well. Homosexuality was once considered a treatable aberration and now isn't. From my reading, the proper term is disorder, rather than disease. I don't think this makes any material difference to AA though.
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Old 7th August 2010, 07:26 AM   #518
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Maybe some people don't look for context or the history, what was it the AMA endorsed in 1991?

Something now and correctly called
International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems

ETA: Marplots, many disorders are payed for that are not diseases, which is why I asked what the context is.

The AMA first made the classification in 1950 something, then they endorsed a dual classification at some point and endored the ICD, which as above some thing that includes 'Related Health Problems', so yes people say the AMA uses the disease model, but where is teh citations and what is the current nomenclature?
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Old 7th August 2010, 07:41 AM   #519
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
,,, so yes people say the AMA uses the disease model, but where is teh citations and what is the current nomenclature?
If you are so interested, and think it will help alcoholics overcome their personal problem, why not do the research and enlighten us?

Do you think your "skeptical" JAQing around is assisting someone with overcoming alcoholism?
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Old 7th August 2010, 08:35 AM   #520
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Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
It's not really an attack, you know, it's simply a statement of what AA "is"...a religious organization.
I don't feel any particular need to defend AA. I've done plenty of attacking myself over the years, having always found much to disagree with both in AA literature and in the things heard at meetings. I have ignored and will continue to ignore discussions related to the effectiveness of AA for two reasons. One is that I don't see any good reason to disagree with those who claim AA not to be very effective -- and if there were any good evidence to refute that, I can't imagine what it would look like, because "effectiveness" seems hard enough to even define in this context, let alone measure. The other is that it is not relevant to the subject of this thread. Ditto discussion on whether alcoholism is a "disease".

Sometimes a sort of critical mass is reached in the proportion of religious fundamentalists or recent rehab graduates active in a group. A group which includes a large number of members with roughly the same amount of time in recovery can go through weird phases. I've attended meetings in a small town that often sees a large influx of weekend bikers during parts of the year, and they can put a certain slant on things. Another is strongly influenced by a mandatory AA attendance policy at a homeless shelter down the street. For quite a number of years I regularly went into jails as an AA volunteer, and the nature of the discussions at those meetings can be quite different than on the outside. One friend of mine did an extended stay in Sri Lanka some years ago and reported a near-total absence of the mention of the word "God" at the AA meetings he attended there. My point is that first-time attendees could easily come away with a wide range of impressions about "what AA is" depending on what group they happened to stumble into and what was going on in that group at that time. Blind men and the elephant and all that.

After more than twenty years I still don't find it easy to put a finger on just exactly what AA is. It's more than a collection of literature, and it's more than a gathering of alcoholics. I find it easier to say what AA is not, and I will continue to argue that labelling it a religious organization is a gross oversimplification at best and a complete mischaracterization at worst.
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