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22nd July 2010, 04:23 PM | #1 |
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Life or no-life after death - Is it an Objective reality?
Do you think the existence of a soul enduring after death is an objective or subjective idea?
So whether you believe you go to Christian heaven, Mormon heaven, Buddhist rebirth or athiest style material non-existence..... is there an actual objective reality to this? Can it be determined? Even if the answer is - nothing... can that be determined? And if there is life after death, and for example it's a Christian protestant one... can we know in the here and now that this is real? What can we base any knowledge of an afterlife on? |
22nd July 2010, 04:27 PM | #2 |
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Show me the soul, then we'll talk about what happens to it after death.
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22nd July 2010, 04:28 PM | #3 |
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There is no evidence of the existence of a soul.
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22nd July 2010, 04:28 PM | #4 |
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I always wondered if those WWJD bracelets worked, so I bought one. Well later, I was on a plane and this little kid was kicking my seat repeatedly, while his sister sang along with her walkman and their mother just sat there. I almost turned around and went off, and then I caught sight of my bracelet. What would Jesus do? So I lit them on fire and sent them all to Hell. --Daniel Tosh |
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22nd July 2010, 04:28 PM | #5 |
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A soul enduring after death isn't necessarily "life after death". What's a soul? What is life when its shell can't interact with the real world? There is a long way to go in defining your terms before you can even think of getting anything but stock answers.
Welcome, by the way. ETA: Hey guys, we have to quit meeting this way! |
22nd July 2010, 04:44 PM | #6 |
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You are asking if a soul or a place you go after death can be determined. This would be objective if you could determine it -- if you are using "determined" to mean known for a fact and demonstrable for everyone. Otherwise its subjective like someone being dead for a few minutes, getting resuscitated, and saying they saw angles. I dont have anything to site, but i think those kinds of experiences are rare, cant be shown to be real, and can be explained neurologically without evoking the supernatural.
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22nd July 2010, 04:44 PM | #7 |
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Thanks for the welcome.
To answer all the question dodgers....you know what I mean... Then rephrase the question, can we know the buddhist after life exists (if Greek concepts of soul somehow offends). Is there an objective afterlife reality? |
22nd July 2010, 04:50 PM | #8 |
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22nd July 2010, 04:50 PM | #9 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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22nd July 2010, 04:52 PM | #10 |
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I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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22nd July 2010, 04:53 PM | #11 |
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If there is, it can't be proven by today's technology. Of course absence of proof is not proof of absence, so logically as it stands right now, we can't know for sure.
All we can do is wager one way or another. |
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I always wondered if those WWJD bracelets worked, so I bought one. Well later, I was on a plane and this little kid was kicking my seat repeatedly, while his sister sang along with her walkman and their mother just sat there. I almost turned around and went off, and then I caught sight of my bracelet. What would Jesus do? So I lit them on fire and sent them all to Hell. --Daniel Tosh |
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22nd July 2010, 04:55 PM | #12 |
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Not a question of offending, but the words are just so slippery, "soul", "afterlife", "spirit", etc that they only have meaning for theists, much like "sin". I have no real concept of "sin" in my world. I understand hurting people and breaking the law, and having guilt for what I do wrong, but "sin", this is only relevant if one is a believer. I'm not dodging any questions, I just don't understand a question that is similar to, "can we ever determine how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" Namely, what the heck is an angel to an atheist?
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22nd July 2010, 04:57 PM | #13 |
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What's a soul and what use is it?
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22nd July 2010, 04:58 PM | #14 |
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It stops your foot from going right through your shoe?
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"The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain. |
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22nd July 2010, 05:01 PM | #15 |
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An invisible fairy-like thing that lives inside you, which leaves your body when you die and allows admittance to the heaven or (slides down to the hell) of whichever religion you have ascribed to so you can hang out with your dead relatives.
...and it weighs 21 grams. |
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I always wondered if those WWJD bracelets worked, so I bought one. Well later, I was on a plane and this little kid was kicking my seat repeatedly, while his sister sang along with her walkman and their mother just sat there. I almost turned around and went off, and then I caught sight of my bracelet. What would Jesus do? So I lit them on fire and sent them all to Hell. --Daniel Tosh |
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22nd July 2010, 05:01 PM | #16 |
I would save the receptionist.
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Really, you could put any word in place of "afterlife" and have the same question. Is there an objective afterlife realty? There's no evidence of one. Is there an objective Peyton Manning reality? There is evidence (some of it in Tennessee) that Peyton Manning exists. Is there an objective Iranian nuclear weapon reality? There is some evidence of one but some evidence that there is not. In all cases, we are making deductions based on the evidence of our senses. And in all cases, the evidence of our senses is in some ways equivocal. At its heart, you may be asking, "Is there an objective reality?" That question has no satisfactory answer. Each of us has no evidence that anything exists outside of our individual selves or that we existed in any moment but the present. I tend to think the answer is yes. Reality is consistent and boring (where as dreams are shifting and exciting). But some would disagree. Are you asking about the existence of an objective reality? Or are you assuming that there is a measurable and definable objective reality and just asking if the afterlife exists within it? |
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22nd July 2010, 05:07 PM | #17 |
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22nd July 2010, 05:10 PM | #18 |
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"The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett |
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22nd July 2010, 05:13 PM | #19 |
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If one cannot define "angel", I'm going to have to say, "no", it cannot be determined how many can dance on the head of a pin, though I can certainly define a pin, and tell you the surface area.
I would have to know how much space they take up, and how much they weigh before I can even begin to say that it can or cannot be determined. Then, I can say, well, I don't have enough information yet, or yes, I can now attempt to determine how many can dance, providing your definition of angel states that they are able to dance. |
22nd July 2010, 05:16 PM | #20 |
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22nd July 2010, 06:21 PM | #21 |
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Things that we say are objectively known can always be tested for accuracy by either side in a debate, because knowledge is demonstrable and measurable. The afterlife is an idea that lacks supporting evidence because nothing about it is testable, and the whole thing is centred around a handful of assumptions which themselves are based on nothing. Consequently, the afterlife is not an objective idea and we currently cannot base claimed knowledge about it on anything.
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22nd July 2010, 06:31 PM | #22 |
I would save the receptionist.
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22nd July 2010, 06:34 PM | #23 |
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22nd July 2010, 07:30 PM | #24 |
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22nd July 2010, 07:43 PM | #25 |
I would save the receptionist.
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Well, good luck with that. There's no answer. There's just an endless debate that goes something like this: Realist: The universe exists because I have gathered evidence of its existence. Anti-Realist: But all of that evidence was gathered by your senses. Realist: So? Anti-Realist: Your senses could be lying to you. Realist: So, what? Nothing exists? Anti-Realist: Things exist as constructs in our minds. Realist: So, our minds must exist. Anti-Realist: Well, mine does. Yours, I'm not so sure about. Realist: You're a jerk. Anti-Realist: And you're an idiot. Realist: Well, at least I'm an idiot who exists! Anti-Realist: Not for long! [Huge sissy slapfight ensues. Non-philosophy majors laugh, have lives, and get laid.] |
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22nd July 2010, 07:51 PM | #26 |
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It makes as much sense to posit a daisy afterlife or a chrysanthemum afterlife. We esteem ourselves too highly.
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22nd July 2010, 08:19 PM | #27 |
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22nd July 2010, 08:22 PM | #28 |
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22nd July 2010, 08:25 PM | #29 |
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22nd July 2010, 08:27 PM | #30 |
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Yes, I think there is an objective reality. I do not think that we will every understand any aspect of it perfectly. The best we can hope for is incrementally better models of reality that serve us well as we can muster. These we get from science. It may be that none of our brains will ever be able to imagine, let alone apprehend, many aspects of it. We won't know this, of course. |
22nd July 2010, 08:48 PM | #31 |
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The best answer I've ever found to this is probably in John Shelby Spong's latest book. (But then, isn't everything?)
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22nd July 2010, 09:47 PM | #32 |
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22nd July 2010, 09:49 PM | #33 |
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22nd July 2010, 09:58 PM | #34 |
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Are all theoretically situations insulting?
If I pose a maths question that starts "If Suzie took the number 2 bus to.." Would I then be questioned over the existence of Suzie or the number 2 bus? If I could not prove that Suzie exists, and that Suzie took the bus on that day... would I have insulted the intellect? Can you define what an insult to intellect would be? Can you prove that the intellect does in fact exist? and is not over inflated? And why would 'the' intellect has so little grace as not to be able to withstand the smallest of slights? Is the intellect that inexperienced in life? Was the intellect sheltered? Is there an end to the endless dissecting of questions in order to escape confronting of their basis? |
22nd July 2010, 09:59 PM | #35 |
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22nd July 2010, 10:53 PM | #36 |
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Science is the only way we can gather and interpret data about out reality objectively. Its also the only known way with which to predict things about our reality.
However it has nothing to do with experiencing reality, that is something our brain does. As for an afterlife, no scientific experiment has ever shown anything to prove it exists. So if it does our best current methods are unable to interact with it making the whole question philosophical. If an intangible soul that does not interact with matter in any way truly exists, you'd best hope there is an afterlife to go to though, otherwise each time someone dies they'll be stuck in empty space watching the earth and the entire solar system rush away from them at high speed. |
22nd July 2010, 10:56 PM | #37 |
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Y'all know what's going to happen if this keeps up, right? Oh, come on. You KNOW what's going to happen. I'm going to bring in Stephen Jay Gould... and NOMA... I WILL bring up NOMA. It'll happen. We will go there, if need be. (hands out key lime tarts for everyone to help with the discussion. I just finished making some. They're so cute. However, these are virtual key lime tarts, because the real ones... let's just say that they're not going to last very long.) |
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22nd July 2010, 11:04 PM | #38 |
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22nd July 2010, 11:39 PM | #39 |
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Objective. Ba (not humbug) No. These things you speak of are at best just make-believe and at worst, heresy. There is only the Tuat. Yes. Ask Hathor Yes. Ask Anubis. What's a Christian? What's he protesting about? Is this anything to do with those reedcutters? The Book of Spells of Going Forth By Day, sometimes referred to as the Book of the Dead. Try Amazon. |
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22nd July 2010, 11:50 PM | #40 |
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"What's a key lime tart", asked Sam, instantly recognising the sole interesting thing in the thread, "and can they be air freighted to Kazakhstan?"
Look- Either we exist, or we don't. If we don't, then let's concentrate on imagining more beer. If we do exist (and by heck it feels like it in the mornings) then it looks like life is actually a chemical process and awareness is too. When the process stops, the candle flame doesn't go anywhere. The burning of wax just stops. The flame WAS the burning of wax. That's what burning of wax looks like. Of course we can't test for life after death, but as in Monty Python's Great Debate on the question, all the dead people stand silent. My bet is that being dead is a lot like not having been born. ETA- Unless you manage to be fossilised. |
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